Quick Gameplay Thoughts: June 23

RiotMeddler·Jun 23, 2017·1 votes·65,405 views

Hey all,

Usual Disclaimers

These posts will often contain talk about future work we're doing, or planning to do, that isn't yet guaranteed to ship. The nature of the work could change or, depending on what we discover, projects mentioned may get put delayed or even stopped. If you'd like to see a Tweet whenever a new one of these posts goes up: https://twitter.com/RiotMeddler

Some more 10 ban data

We did a bit more analysis of the impact of 10 bans earlier this week. Particularly interesting there was the distribution of how many unique champs are banned per game, which ended up being a higher number than expected. Two key data points from that below, bear in mind that these are averages though and will vary based off your MMR and the server you play on:

Around 70% of games have 9 or 10 unique champions banned
Less than 1% of games have 5 or 6 unique champions banned

We'll keep monitoring how ban usage changes over time of course, so more info to follow again at some point. Overall we're still really happy with how the revised ban system in matchmade games has gone, particularly the amount its sped up getting into game (lets players spend a larger proportion of their time on the more fun bits).

More Runes info probably next week

We've got another dev blog on the new runes system, looking at some more details of how the system works, along with talking about some more specific runes, some of which are brand new and some of which are existing masteries that have been converted over. That blog probably comes out next week

Cho'Gath

Looks like we should be able to ship those previously mentioned Cho changes in 7.14. What we're currently testing there is changing E to an active rather than a toggle, where it empowers Cho's next three auto attacks with the AOE spikes that deal % max enemy hp as magic damage and apply a decaying slow. CD's really short when leveled. Goals there include giving Cho a more juggernaut like damage profile (able to hurt beefier front lines better if they're all he can reach), putting a bit more interaction into use of the E and adding a bit of power.

Singed

Changes won't be shipping in 7.13 after all. We want to make building damage a better choice, but don't feel we've got the right changelist for that yet. Going to be exploring passive modifications for 7.14, though not guaranteed we'll necessarily ship anything (this is still budgeted as balance work, not an update, though one of those at some point could make some sense too).

Lethality Item Changes

Should also be in 7.14 based off current progress. Key changes current being tested include:

Serrated Dirk/Poacher's Dirk - Removing the out of combat movement speed and instead giving it a passive where after killing a large minion, monster or champion your next damaging spell against a champion deals 50 bonus damage. Goals of adding a bit of optimization to its use and removing the need to put out of combat MS on everything it builds into.
Duskblade - No longer has out of combat movement speed, proc damage a flat number (so a more viable first item), has CDR and a very brief slow on application of the Nightstalker proc (think Trundle Q like) plus a cost reduction. Looking to make it a reasonable alternative to Ghostblade as a first major item.
Ghostblade - More OOC MS, less AD. Cementing this as the strategic mobility choice.
Black Cleaver - Testing an internal cooldown on how quickly you can add stacks to an opponent (0.5s at present). Aiming to preserve its impact for slow/regular speed stackers, while making it less dominant on those with sufficiently split up physical damage it gets stacked almost instantly.

As per usual, this stuff's not finalized and more details to come.

252 Comments

CrabPeopleReformJun 23, 201744 votes

Draven item 3812 pls opinion

QuešJun 23, 201713 votes

You can add Riven here too

TormentulaJun 23, 201710 votes

is it safe to include Graves ?

######and maybe his cigar for his boards icon...

meatbalspaghettiJun 23, 201710 votes

And Fiora ?

Buffy432Jun 23, 201723 votes

Is there any update on Deaths Dance? I'm noticing it making champions tanky that aren't really supposed to be.

OceanicEyesJun 23, 201711 votes

Hey Meddler!

I'm a vehemently passionate Cho'gath main, and I am very interested in these changes and would like to give my feedback.

Other than his ultimate, Cho's E is actually my favorite ability. It's definitely boring compared to other abilities, but I love it for its potential melee damage (I love maxing it first), allowing you to outrade almost anyone in melee range, and easier last hitting to make your passive extremely reliable.

The changes you're proposing to his E really interest me. For starters, I play and consider Cho'gath as an AP juggernaut, so seeing changes steering him in this direction is something I can appreciate. I will make mention that many Cho mains do prefer his full AP playstyle, so it is worth talking with all of his mains before steering him into one direction.

Nevertheless, I myself am interested in the E changes as they add more to his E than just a toggle. It sounds like it can add some great burst, a window against Cho when E is on cooldown (which isn't necessarily a bad thing), and more motivation for players to stay away from range of this deadly void titan.

My main concern with E, however, is potential mana costs. I stay healthy with mana and hp in lane by being very conservative with Q and W, while relying on current E as my main tool. I just hope that I can keep a similar playstyle where I can preserve my abilities for when I need utility in trades.

Thanks for the update on Cho!

RiotRiot MapleNectarJun 23, 20176 votes

Hey there!

Last iteration we had is the E costing 30 mana, with a CD that scales down with levels. We're looking into some additional satisfaction wins on the ability as well though we'll see if we're able to ship them at the same time. Examples of this are how currently when you toggle your E and attack a target, the hit SFX only plays for that target, and while your spikes fly over additional targets and deal damage, nothing plays for those impacts. We're going to see if we can play that up to make the ability feel more threatening, as well as look into some small VFX wins for make Cho feel a bit better about hitting his buttons :).

Dark Star ChoJun 23, 20174 votes

[{quoted}](name=Riot Asyrite,realm=NA,application-id=A7LBtoKc,discussion-id=demk2EEi,comment-id=00290001,timestamp=2017-06-23T19:02:15.826+0000)

Hey there!

Last iteration we had is the E costing 30 mana, with a CD that scales down with levels. We're looking into some additional satisfaction wins on the ability as well though we'll see if we're able to ship them at the same time. Examples of this are how currently when you toggle your E and attack a target, the hit SFX only plays for that target, and while your spikes fly over additional targets and deal damage, nothing plays for those impacts. We're going to see if we can play that up to make the ability feel more threatening, as well as look into some small VFX wins for make Cho feel a bit better about hitting his buttons :).

i feel this is ignoring many questions through fluffy evasion..

Will anything be done about cho's mana situation? (dorans nerfs hurt, low mana pool, passive is almost useless for mana)
Will Q animation finally be fixed, skill matching hitbox and cleaned up timings to be hittable vs anyone not afk?
Wil E be an AA reset? Will it still apply spell effects?

Additional Note: on E's expected 30 mana cost, with his mana pool at 272 – 952, with low mana regen and low mana from passive, using old E to wave clear while waiting for mana for a q or W is now gone, and with low mobiltiy and vulnerability to dives with no mana he will be even easier tower dive then now.

Cho's skills FEEL satisfying when landed now, its just a matter of it feels satisfying through sheer luck of the land on q-w rather then skill.

RiotRiot MapleNectarJun 23, 20178 votes

Hmm...not sure how you got the impression I was ignoring questions through "fluffly evasion". I addressed the one direct question that OceanicEyes had around mana cost for E, and then added in some additional information around some other things we want to do with the ability.

Currently we may considering looking at some of his mana costs on his other abilities, but won't be touching his mana pool or passive (at least not currently).

No work being done regarding the animation. Though something to note regarding your comment about note be able to hit Q on anyone, with E now having a decaying slow it actually works really well for setting up your Q (the spell is still having the pass through spikes), so you can hit people at range with the slow which sets you up for an easier Q as opposed to you feeling like you have to fish for it all the time. Also worth noting that the Max HP damage applies to all units hit by the E spikes, not just the initial target, so you're still getting pass through damage on all creeps, not just the first one you attack.

The ability will still apply spell effects, and I believe it's still an auto attack reset (though I'll need to confirm that). I'm stuck at home sick and not with the team so I can't just spin around in my chair :P.

RiotRiot WittrockJun 23, 201710 votes

Can confirm, it's a basic attack reset in the current iteration.

RiotRiot MapleNectarJun 23, 20176 votes

^the man the legend.

XIII VanitasJun 23, 20173 votes

Do you think the change could possibly hurt his clear speed and sustain in the jungle?

RiotAzuBKJun 23, 20172 votes

His early jungle shouldn't feel too different. Auto reset is powerful, and Hunter's Talisman will now proc on his E as well.

XIII VanitasJun 23, 20171 votes

Cho'Gath's E already procs Hunter's Talisman on every single aa. That's why I was asking if you had taken his jungle clear into account.

RiotAzuBKJun 23, 20174 votes

E damage does not proc Talisman on live. Maybe the misunderstanding stems from the fact that auto-attacks proc Talisman? Regardless, I have taken his jungle clear into account and tuned the ability to give him a similar clear speed. No worries there :)

RiotAzuBKJun 23, 20176 votes

Mentioned this elsewhere in the thread, but for visibility: Q mana cost is down in the current iteration to offset the cost of E. We may end up moving mana costs around in other ways, but Cho's total kit mana costs should still feel equal in the final version. Anecdotally, he hasn't had mana problems in internal playtests.

OceanicEyesJun 23, 20171 votes

Thanks for the reply!

I'm wondering if Cho should retain his passive damage on E (albeit with reduced damage than the live version to compensate for the added power of an E active). This, like Captain Chogath mentioned, would help him still have some ability while being out of mana.

I agree with Captain Chogath in that perhaps other parts of Cho should be looked into first before E, such as the reliability of Q. The hitbox and speed can seem inconsistent, where people dodge when they look like they shouldn't, and get hit when you don't expect them to still be in the circle.

Just my two cents though, by no means am I trying to sound overly critical here. I really do appreciate that there are changes being looked into for Cho, as despite having little to no problems with his current kit, I do believe he's a champion that could greatly benefit from updates.

The SFX changes to E sound awesome! I'm excited to see how they look/sound in the testing stage. And new VFX for his spells would be a blessing!

RiotRiot MapleNectarJun 23, 20176 votes

He won't retain the Live toggle damage, and in the testing we've done so far he hasn't had issues keeping his mana up in lane despite the changes.

There be some issues with Q that we're overlooking that I can check with the designer. Other things that could make it feel inconsistent is lag/packet loss, but there's no way of me being able to tell without being in a game where it happens. Might be some small tweak that needs to be made, but no promises because I don't actually know if that's an issue that exists or that we can solve.

I think he's a good candidate for new VFX across the board at some point, but for now I think we'll just be looking to do some tweaks to his E. Certainly believe that at some point it'd be great to make his Q look a little more...uh...good :P but sadly our artists are on several other projects that we can't devote too much time to just Cho at this point in time.

RiotAzuBKJun 23, 201714 votes

Hey OceanicEyes - As the designer currently working on Cho'gath, I'm glad the new E direction piques your interest. I'd like to shed a little light on the questions and concerns you expressed.

One of the main goals with this update is to make Cho'gath's influence reflect his size and lack of mobility. It just doesn't sit right that the gigantic lumbering void terror is eminently kiteable, but is not sufficiently rewarded for finally making it into range. The new version of E provides a more persistent threat, offering agnostic %hp damage that makes even tanks leery of remaining in melee range for too long.

Its windowed nature also reflects Cho's weakness in getting to / staying on high mobility targets. Toning down its 100% uptime allows us to make it a powerful ability even if you only get an auto or two off before Lucian dashes out of range. The slow also rewards Cho for making it to his target by giving him a window of "stickiness," rather than the current situation where dodging Q guarantees that your enemies walk away scot-free.

Re: Mana costs, the E currently has an activation cost of 30 mana. Right now we're going with a reduction on the mana cost of Q to balance this out, and Cho hasn't demonstrated mana problems in internal playtests. The Q cost reduction is pending to change, but rest assured that we are conscious of the repercussions of adding a mana cost to a formerly mana-less ability and are looking to offset.

AP Cho'gath will also remain alive and well - or perhaps end up in an even better spot! In the current iteration his Q/W/R damages and AP scalings are untouched, and the slow attached to E will allow him greater Q accuracy if he's willing to get up close and personal (or if he can find some clever pass-through angles).

Hopefully this clears some things up, and thanks for the feedback as always!

UnpronoucablJun 24, 20176 votes

Hey, another longtime main here.

Would you be confident to say that Cho should become an AP juggernaut? (As opposed to straight AP mage?) I'd just like to know the direction you're interested in taking him.

Now that E passive damage is gone, would you consider buffing Cho's attack speed? It's one of the lowest in the game, & now that the additional "free" dps is gone, I think he could do with a tiny buff.

Finally, I've made a few suggestions on /r/chogathmains have you seen those?

Thanks for your time and effort!

IxtaliKingJun 23, 20179 votes

A couple questions:

Since there will no longer be class updates, how will the smaller reworks be handled? Will they be done 1 at a time, or will the Live team be working on a few champs simultaneously?
Will there be a small rework tier/priority list, like we have for VGUs?

RiotMeddlerJun 23, 20179 votes

There'll probably be a couple underway at different levels of completion at any point in time. Right now that's LB and Azir for example. They'll be released whenever they're ready, probably not multiple at the exact same time though (same artists needed for each).

goalgetter666Jun 23, 20174 votes

Thoughts about Pantheon/Rengar?

SilverjustJun 24, 20174 votes

will you still make big item updates?

TormentulaJun 23, 20179 votes

Skarner

What are the odds of him getting a rek'sai/azir/aatrox update in the future?

He's not fine and been one of the worst champions longer than volibear.

Kind RivenJun 23, 20177 votes

Youmuus is weak already, why reduce it's AD more... You also nerfed Black Cleaver already several times, it doesn't need more nerfs, take a look at DD instead of BC and Ghostblade..

Blue Moon WolfJun 23, 20175 votes

What are the plans for Divers who might have been worked on for the diver update?

RiotMeddlerJun 23, 20177 votes

Some will likely get smaller updates as part of the new process, mixed in with champs from other classes also in need.

Shadow HazardJun 23, 20173 votes

What about a blanket itemization update since divers in my opinion needed it more than the tanks.

Blue Moon WolfJun 23, 20175 votes

Where would Wukong be on that list? Is he still a likely candidate like he was for the Diver update?

AirKingNeoJun 23, 20173 votes

And chance for itemization that they would have gotten in said update? Divers lack items, mostly because Maw and Sterak's don't stack anymore.

iahim98Jun 23, 20175 votes

Hi meddler, are there any more changes planed for AD Kennen , the only change I saw was a small nerf to W dmg for him, do you think is enough or do you have plans for item 3022 so you only nerfed him a little this time?

Also can we get a range indicator for his W when we hit a champion like Twitch E or Urgot E+Q?

EROTIC RAID BOSSJun 23, 20175 votes

That black cleaver change would be awfully shitty for illaoi

FeAR THe Reηg0Jun 23, 20175 votes

What about Rengar? Are you planning anything for him? Riot please dont forget Rengar us !

Dark Star ChoJun 23, 20174 votes

Well, I'm glad to see Riot is doing something aside from nerfing his silence or buffing his ult but i really hope to see current E as passive stay, and active be similar to suggested, in cooldown passive is not in effect, this was a pretty critical part of thunderlords harass or dft harass.

Oh, the other day animations were mentioned for cho, will his Q and W be cleaned up for more consistent results?

In addition tripple dorans removal hurt cho's ability to sustain vs pretty much any ad matchup, perhaps a passive readjustment or look at mana costs, base mana regen, or base mana pool.

Finally, the mention of juggernaut, for years Chogath has been a 'middle of the pack' and 'no true class' champion, is this a declaration that Riot has decided on the path they want to take for him moving forward? Will he still have his identity of long cooldown high impact skills or will he eventually be reworked to be more in line with other juggernauts (Darius coming to mind for some reason as the AD counterpart)

CronoveyJun 23, 20174 votes

Any chance we can see the circle that Nautilus, Udyr, and Yasuo have on targets they've recently used their passive, Bear Stance, or Sweeping Blade on added to Jarvan for his passive?

Nothing seriously important, but a nice little QoL change. Instead of having to click on my target to see the debuff, he seems like a perfect candidate for this type of interaction. It would help with his laning and target selection quite a bit knowing which targets he can get the most damage out on at a time.

ShadowrududeJun 23, 20174 votes

Is Riot ever gonna comment on the state of Rengar? He's at Azir/Rek'sai status in that he's really good in competitive play, but actually trash for SoloQ, the exact OPPOSITE situation a champion like Rengar SHOULD be in, cuz of how his kit was. Instead you've made it extremely clunky, then "balanced" it by having extreme numbers, which only happens if your snowball is rolling, and ANY champ would perform when their snowball is rolling, but in Rengars case it's REQUIRED you snowball . If you guys honestly felt that partially-reverting Kog'maw's rework was the healthiest way to fix his problems and the ones he was making, then you guys honestly have no real reason to not revert Rengar. I'm the only Rengar I ever see in my games, and I only pick him when I miss playing him or if I don't mind throwing the game for my teammates, and I should NEVER feel like picking a champ is detrimental for my team, especially when they would have been a perfect fit. You guys don't even have him classified as an assassin anymore, you made him a fucking diver AGAINST the will of every Rengar main on the planet. Did Rengar dive people before? Yeah, if he could one-shot them and get out. Now you build a plethora of tank items and just tank the turret instead, and that's just fucked up. Q isn't even a damage skill anymore, the highest utility AND damage come from a double-E cast...

Sire HippingtonJun 23, 20174 votes

Cho'Gath

The issue of cho is not that he does to little once in range, his issue is that he lacks any somewhat reliable way of gettign there, Befor the W changes and Rylais nerfs, the W + Rylais gave a reliable silence+slow that allowed to setup Q which when allowed to get into range. But W no longer is reliable on high range or vs mobile targets, and Rylais has lost half it's slow for cho ontop of the reduced stats.

No wonder people don't feel tanky anymore if we slap % damage and other anti tank mechanics on everything as if it solves all issues. In S2, the only tank with % damage was amumu, and later Zac, while by now every single tankish champ has % damage or some%pen/shred/truedamage, all while mages and adc do rather more than less dps... If you really feel the need to use %damage on tankish champs to keep them relevant in their output, then reduce the dps of mages/adc or power of anti tank items, because tankling all that %damage and shit on top of the dedicated DDs does not work.

Lethality Item Changes

Wouldn't it make more sense to have duskblade as strategic mobillity item with OOC MS since it's ward detection/disable already offers strategic value and points towards roaming, while Yomuu's active has more tactical value by granting in combat mobillity. Also, even less ad from lethality items when the damage especially later on feels a bit lackluster with those builts allready? Aren't assasins supposed to be a meaningfull damage source?

And the BC changes also would hurt Assasins alot, as they currently rely on BC for their builts and they would loose alot of stacks on their combo with that change.

Justíce ReformedJun 24, 20174 votes

If you guys are messing around with ghost blade and black cleaver, may i ask your thoughts on Garen regarding theses changes? Both are excellent items on him so i'm curious.

SpideraxeJun 23, 20173 votes

Hey Meddler can I ask for which Divers would you guys give one of those gameplay updates now that you guys canned class updates

RiotMeddlerJun 23, 20178 votes

Aatrox, Xin and Diana are plausible candidates. Other small updates (e.g. Azir or LB) are fairly likely before those though.

Sun Wu RyuumokuJun 23, 20179 votes

Don't forget us, MonkeyKing mains.

Zatch NakarieJun 23, 20174 votes

God he needs an update. Hes become the new sejuani where hes only there for his ultimate.

zippyHDJun 23, 20173 votes

I am crying everytime i see Meddler posting a "Quick Gameplay Thoughts" but there is no details on Leblanc :*(

Cosmic WarperJun 23, 20176 votes

{quoted}

I am crying everytime i see Meddler posting a "Quick Gameplay Thoughts" but there is no details on Leblanc :*(

she's being reworked again so they're going to have a separate post when they're ready to announce details, same with the azir rework.

TormentulaJun 23, 201711 votes

Now you know how skarner players feel.

WiegrafOfValorJun 23, 20173 votes

#Serrated Dirk/Poacher's Dirk - Removing the out of combat movement speed and instead giving it a passive where after killing a large minion, monster or champion your next damaging spell against a champion deals 50 bonus damage. Goals of adding a bit of optimization to its use and removing the need to put out of combat MS on everything it builds into.

You mean that when Riven Fiora Yasuo Pantheon come back to lane after their first buy, pre-6 they will be doing +50 damage on their poke? Please keep the out of fight MS

Jackom1Jun 23, 20172 votes

Regarding cho, have you also explored the option of his base kit getting bonus damage based on the amount of stacks he has. Or even just having some of his basic abilities scale with bonus health?

RiotAzuBKJun 23, 20178 votes

The current iteration of his E has a damage scaling component with feast stacks :)