Boards›Dev Corner

Fizz Change v2 Heading to PBE

RiotRiot NeuroCat·6/28/2018, 5:07:00 PM·1 votes·69,743 views

Hi all,

Last week, we tried some experimental changes to Fizz’s W, but we heard your feedback and have a new iteration landing on the PBE today. As before, our primary goal with these changes is to replace the mark charging mechanic and Fizz’s current W with a more satisfying and intuitive version of W (while maintaining the delay on Fizz’s full burst) - this time around, we also want to have the version feel more like pre-rework Fizz.

Changes to W (relative to live Fizz)

  • REMOVED - W passive marking targets for 6s (the bleed is retained)
  • REMOVED - W active dealing triple damage when hitting a mark-primed target
  • NEW - If Seastone Trident active doesn’t kill its target, Fizz gains bonus on-hit magic damage for 6s
  • On-hit Damage: 10/15/20/25/30 + 25% AP
  • W Cooldown: 10/9.5/9/8.5/8 >>> 18/17/16/15/14
  • W Mana Refund: 20/28/36/42/50 >>> 20/28/36/44/52

In response to your feedback, we want to backload his full damage potential in a way that feels very natural (and nostalgic) to long time Fizz players, so we’re trying the on-hit bonus on his W active. You still have the active attack-reset magic damage, same as live, so after a couple autoattacks (plus a Q), you’ll be netting similar damage to an empowered W on live. If you manage to stick to your target for the full duration, you’ll be doing significantly more damage. We also heard that you find Live Fizz’s farming very satisfying with his cooldown reset on W, so we’ve retained that mechanic (you just won’t get the on-hit buff if you reset it).

As before, with these changes, we’re not looking to update Fizz or make large scope changes, just smooth down a consistent pain point for Fizz players. These changes will not necessarily ship with the next patch - we want to keep them on PBE for a bit, collect your feedback, and iterate if necessary.

Thanks again for your feedback on the last round. If you get a chance, especially if you’re a once-lapsed Fizz player, jump onto PBE and give them a whirl. -NeuroCat

 

   

6/29/18 Update

Some minor changes based on feedback and testing we've observed. Looking to make the windows around uptime/downtime of the W more normal/defined, cut the cooldowns a bit, and compress his damage a little more. These will probably land on the PBE next week (whenever the next build is).

Changes

  • W On-hit Damage Buff
  • Duration: 6 >>> 5
  • Damage per Hit: 10/15/20/25/30 + 25% AP >>> 10/15/20/25/30 + 30% AP
  • W Cooldown: 18/17/16/15/14 >>> 7/6.5/6/5.5/5
  • Now starts at the end of the Buff duration

 

   

7/5/18 Update

Based on feedback and further testing, we're adding a bit more power to his W early. Plus, we're stripping out the bleeds that Q and R add to further streamline his kit and free up some situational power.

Changes

  • Removed the bleeds on non-primary targets of Urchin Strike (Q) and all targets of Chum the Waters (R)
  • W Active Bonus Damage: 20/30/40/50/60 + 40% AP >>> 40/50/60/70/80 + 40% AP

Also, we fixed some bugs where his W active duration before hitting a target was 2s instead of 4s and his on-hit damage was higher than intended.

143 Comments

Landorin6/28/2018, 5:26:02 PM12 votes

I like this approach a lot better than the last one. Will give it a try tonight and give feedback.

One thing I notice immediately is that the cooldown on W is extremely high now. I understand the reason (not allowing 100% uptime at high CDR), but it seems to me that it maybe shouldn't have an 18 second CD at level 1. It gates his trading in lane by a lot and if you mess up a CS with W, you're now a sitting duck for 18 seconds instead of 10 like on live. 14 flat CD seems like it could be a happy medium.

The other thing I want to bring up is the small shark. I understand the reasoning for its existence, by right now I think it is too punishing and using it is literally never the direct choice unless you are against Yasuo (otherwise it is always better to back off and throw the shark later). Any chance of looking at flattening the ult damage a little bit across the 3 sizes?

RiotRiot NeuroCat7/3/2018, 1:05:24 AM7 votes

Just an update, we're looking to ship these changes in 8.14 - I'll let y'all know if we change the numbers, but they don't seem too far off.

HongChongDong6/28/2018, 7:19:56 PM7 votes

Legit, Neurocat becoming the only designer that I have respect for. I personally haven't seen any other instances where feedback was taken so quickly. It's still only for small changes, but atleast knowing someone is willing to do the job right makes me happy. Unfortunately I still don't agree with the changes though.

The Fizz players who want a revert look at everything through rose colored glasses. Fizz seemed stronger with his old kit thus surely a revert would fix all of their frustrations, right? It doesn't work like that. Fizz was strong because the old W had nasty early game kill pressure, which then translated into high snowball potential because of his ranged pick mechanic with his ult, which then translated into a shit ton of kills, a mid laner who has less gold and XP than the support, and a fed assassin which could solo carry back then.

Damage was lower for other classes, tank was lower, and the champions of ye oldin' days were as straight and simple as an arrow. There just wasn't any advanced mechanics in items and champions that countered Assassins too hard. Backline carries died instantly on a well placed dive, tanks could no longer solo kill you, and ADC's didn't 2 tap you with auto's. The most annoying mechanics fizz had to deal with were QSS, Sivir shield (When she was meta), and Hexdrinker which in my opinion remains a terribly unbalanced item to this day.

Otherwise he was still bad. He still had an abysmal laning phase, mediocre itemization, and absolutely destroyed by enchanters protecting dive targets.

Biggest reason this iteration will fail is because it's a matter of how quickly you can deal the damage. You have to make his damage capabilities equivalent to the live version, otherwise it's a straight nerf. But in the case of an onhit like the old mechanic that means there's a specific amount of auto's you're looking for to equate to that damage. If it's too little like 2, then the power of the onhit is gonna be painful and in any situation where he can get off more it'll be disgusting.

If you spread it out between more auto's though then suddenly you can't do anything at all. The average dive usually won't even allow for more than an initial Q> W, so 2 auto's, any more and you're going to be hanging out in the open for awhile. In modern league of legends you can easily die in less than half a second to nothing more than an off damage class, never mind the legitimate carry. Even if you can survive longer you'd still be pounded by CC which would still prevent securing a kill and lead to death.

I'll download the patch when I wake up and give legitimate feedback at that point, I'm just saying here though that in no way can I see this idea working out besides acting as a way to please the people crying for reverts.

Fisherman Fizz6/29/2018, 1:30:33 AM7 votes

Tried it on pbe! First off, something seems to have horribly broken on PBE servers and barely anything seemed to work properly just in general. Aside from that, here's some feedback on the new W:

  1. The new active is AMAZING. This absolutely needs to be the iteration that goes to live, with no more than minor mechanics tweaks and numbers changes maybe.

  2. The W cooldown feels a bit long early, but seems like it'll be ok from mid-late game. I think something like 8s off rank one scaling to 7s off max rank will feel pretty good once the cooldown mechanic changes to be after the buff wears off. If this isn't enough to fix the CD disparity early, maybe just give it a flat cooldown of around 7 seconds or so?

  3. The W cooldown change is a good idea. Right now if you press W but don't get a hit off the cooldown is ridiculously high.

  4. The DoT seems to still be applying on Q/ulti. I think this is totally unnecessary with the W mark removed. I think these DoT applications should be removed and the power budget from them put back into the DoT strength itself.

  5. DoT is definitely pretty weak, and it seems to be missing vfx on the pbe right now? The bubble effect wasn't there so it was hard to tell when the DoT was actually on someone. Aside from that, I think the DoT doesn't feel very noticeable just from the small amount of damage it does. I think it might legit just not be working at all right now for some reason.

  6. I think normally I am looking for DoT damage on targets that are low on HP in hopes that they'll get executed. I think to help make the DoT be more noticeable, the execute should come back. I think the AP ratio of the DoT should be either nerfed or removed, and a % missing hp component added again, but make all of it scale off of AP so that bruiser builds will not get any of this damage at all. If this doesn't work, maybe do a different form of scaling against lower hp targets. Maybe past a certain hp %, the ap ratio is doubled and has a louder visual to indicate that the damage is amped accordingly? This would help make the DoT more noticeable when it's most important without changing how much damage it does overall by that much.

  7. Part of the goal with this W change was to delay his damage somewhat. Right now the way the damage works actually seems MORE frontloaded than the old Fizz because the initial hit does more damage than the on-hit buff. Possibly lower the initial hit damage ap ratio and buff the on-hit ratio here to make them feel more similar. The only concern I'd have with doing this is if it makes it too hard to actually reset off minions for that mechanic to even be there at all. If it works at the lower AP ratio though I think it would be worth.

  8. Further elaborating on the last point, the on-hit feels just slightly weak. I think a .05 buff would be a good starting point for it, or maybe .1 if it really needs it.

Outside of the W, just some other feedback. I know these aren't things you can change right now but still worth noting for later:

  1. Fizz's passive isn't working right now and wow, it really makes you appreciate it more when it's actually gone and you can't go through minions anymore.

  2. The Q cooldown + AP ratio is stronger than it has been on average for Fizz historically. If needed I could see lowering the AP ratio or cooldown at rank 1 early to put power elsewhere, but only if needed. I kind of like where it is now.

  3. The ult still feels like it should be normalized between the 3 sharks instead of such a huge disparity between them. The AP ratio doesn't go up consistently between the 3 right now, so I think changing it from .6/.8/1.2 to .7/.9/1.1 would be a good idea. If this doesn't make them feel better, maybe also increase the guppy shark base damage by 25 at all ranks and reduce big shark by 25, so the difference is 50 between each instead of 75.

BleKz6/28/2018, 8:33:47 PM7 votes

Holly shit, this is the Fizz I remember, really great changes and thanks a lot.

On the other side, I think numbers are a little bit low and the CD pretty brutal, but I'm not 2 worried about that since those are minor balance changes, really like this W.

Sire Hippington6/30/2018, 11:16:16 AM6 votes

One of the main reasons for why i disliked the rework is the loss of his sustained damage patterns. Also, the burst W creates huge hit or miss situations and puts to much upfront burst on landing the ult. On live, he basically boils down on landing a good ult for a oneshot, and if that doesn't happen he has a hard time.

With this approach, Fizz finally gets his sustained fighting patterns back that reward him for sticking onto a target for more than 2sec, ap-bruiser builts will become somewhat viable once again and his raw oneshot potential gets lower, so it's a great change that will improve playing as Fizz aswell as playing against Fizz.

Only thing that feels bad is that you're normal combo would be Q-AA-W, but you won't have the on-hit damage from W for Q+AA, but if you activate it first you won't get the AA-reset.

Also, if his numbers turn out to low, maybe buff the dot, without the %damage on it, the current numbers are just very low and you hardly feel like it does anything. I really enjoyed the strong dot on old fizz and getting kills with it.

RiotRiot NeuroCat7/6/2018, 2:29:56 AM6 votes

Hi folks, quick update.

Based on feedback and further testing, we're adding a bit more power to his W early. Plus, we're stripping out the bleeds that Q and R add to further streamline his kit and free up some situational power.

Changes

  • Removed the bleeds on non-primary targets of Urchin Strike (Q) and all targets of Chum the Waters (R)
  • W Active Bonus Damage: 20/30/40/50/60 + 40% AP >>> 40/50/60/70/80 + 40% AP

Also, we fixed some bugs where his W active duration before hitting a target was 2s instead of 4s and his on-hit damage was higher than intended.

RiotRiot NeuroCat6/29/2018, 11:42:30 PM6 votes

6/29/18 Update

Some minor changes based on feedback and testing we've observed. Looking to make the windows around uptime/downtime of the W more normal/defined, cut the cooldowns a bit, and compress his damage a little more. These will probably land on the PBE next week (whenever the next build is).

Changes

  • W On-hit Damage Buff
  • Duration: 6 >>> 5
  • Damage per Hit: 10/15/20/25/30 + 25% AP >>> 10/15/20/25/30 + 30% AP
  • W Cooldown: 18/17/16/15/14 >>> 7/6.5/6/5.5/5
  • Now starts at the end of the Buff duration
give me your tœs7/10/2018, 7:36:15 PM5 votes

I was told by r/fizzmains to post this here. Here's a link to the original reddit thread.

Fizz's current DoT in action (video) (clip recorded from Taliyah's perspective so you can see buffs/debuffs and exact HP)

In this clip (I was 1/0), DoT deals 5 per half second (30 damage over 3 seconds). Taliyah activated the potion at 9 HP, which heals for the same amount (5 per half second for 15 seconds), which results in a net gain of health for her due to base health regen.

For the first half of the game, enemies don't even take damage from the DOT because it can be neutralized for 15 seconds for 50g. I've made the following recommendation regarding the DOT in a previous reddit post:

W Passive Damage: 20/30/40/50/60 (+40% AP) [Increased by 0% - 50% based on Target's Missing Health]

Maximum Damage: 30/45/60/75/90 (+60% AP)

This change would still refrain from using the "unhealthy" %MH damage, and instead offer flat damage scaling as an execute.

So, RiotScruffy and/or RiotNeuroCat, would it be out of the question to reintroduce an execute mechanic on Fizz's bleed?

Wild Wooper6/28/2018, 5:26:43 PM5 votes

why do you feel fizz needs to be changed?

Fisherman Fizz6/28/2018, 5:55:22 PM5 votes

This looks like a much better starting point, awesome!

Some questions:

  1. Does the cooldown start at the beginning of the 6 seconds or after the buff ends?

  2. Is the DoT still the same?

  3. The ap ratio seems a bit low but this is probably because the damage is frontloaded a bit on the initial hit having a .4 ratio, right? What's the reasoning for scaling the ratio with level, and does it make W max better?

Some thoughts on possible changes if they're needed:

  1. Without the W mark, I think the Q applying DoT in AoE is unnecessary. Maybe this could be traded for a bit more damage on the DoT itself?

  2. Any thoughts into changing the ult at all? I feel like the max range shark eats up a lot of his power budget atm but maybe that'll be less true without the mark.

Edit: Also, do you think it'd be a good idea to keep that trident mark above people that have the DoT ticking just to make it more obvious that it's on them, or would that be confusing since it would have a different function that it does on live?

Murr Wurr6/28/2018, 5:55:28 PM5 votes

Wow these changes look absolutely amazing guys! really looking forward to trying them out on PBE thanks so much.

SeeKerŻ6/28/2018, 5:59:21 PM5 votes

I didn't try yet but if numbers are too low, you should avoid touching the base damages and up the ratios more. Something like 45% like old fizz had instead of 25%.

Starcall Casey6/28/2018, 8:51:32 PM5 votes

The original Fizz W had very low base damage and a pretty mediocre AP ratio because all of his damage relied on the % missing HP damage. Now with that gone I'm super surprised that the base damage and ratio are still very poor. I've still yet to play him on the PBE, but this damage looks super low especially since he has to stay in combat even longer than before to get more damage off than what's on live servers right now (it seems).

I'll edit my comment after my first few games since I can't tell how well it'll play until I try it.

Game 1: 2 afk's, 1 on each team. draven being 12/0 out of laning phase I was still able to one shot him with my lead i picked up mid. Feeling great so far tbh.

Fisherman Fizz6/28/2018, 9:38:01 PM5 votes

I think the tooltip on his W has a bug right now. The AP ratio for the on-hit buff says .4 ratio but it looks like the damage is actually the correct .25 amount still and it's just the tooltip that's messed up.

Fizz n Flips6/29/2018, 5:37:31 AM5 votes

Oh boy I can't wait to get downvoted in none-existence for that, but here I go.

I really like this concept more than the other one. It has a more fluent feeling to it.

The damage values seem reasonable, but are probably to low and NEED a buf/change.

BUT, I'm not fully happy with it either. Here I bring some Ideas, concerns and possible changes up.

Now Before you downvote and hate me, take a breath and read what I have to say. I would love to be proven wrong, because it would mean my concerns might be wrong.

Here we go:

  • Delay is build in What alot of people, again and again not seem to get, is that Riot not gonna revert the W. This is a good solution but it has still its downside. Currently it is capped by the AS Speed of Fizz. You have 0.658 AS at Level 1 and 0.807 at Level 2 and so on. Means you get about 1 AA per second. To be as strong as the current Fizz W with its delay it cost you 3 seperate AA which is basically a 3 sec delay to "deal about the same" damage. This is in early levels not that big of a deal but later on the difference is pretty visible. CC hits harder and the enemy probably won't stand still to get cut down.

Damage Graph

  • No DoT no damage please I read about alot of people they don't wanna have the DoT on the Q and R anymore, because it is "useless" now. Damage is never useless. 10 hp can mean life or death. To Q through minions to causing them to bleed, finishing off small minions or causing everyone in a good placed AOE Ult to bleed. I would say the difference is there and not at all useless. And remember, DoT applied makes camouflaged enemies "visible".

  • Better DoT Another argument which I personally would like. Grievous Wounds would be maybe to much, but an increased more meaning full DoT sounds good. Problem here is the balancing: What is to much? I would focus on the base Values first.

  • I'm gonna get you eventually Everyone which played with the new W (and have a decent feeling for the Champion) is currently wondering: It seems a bit weaker? Yes. that is the disadvantage for having hits-overtime, you cut the damage in pieces, otherwise it would be op... or? With this current set, he has a bit more of a Mage than an Assassin... maybe. Basically you need Activate the W, then Auto, then Auto again. The first Auto activates the On-Hit bonus causing Basic Magic damage to work. Second Auto Attack applies only Bonus Magic damage. Damage Graph

  • Less damage on Q Now let us think this through... if you take damage from somewhere, it has to put somewhere. Currently in this change the damage is relatively even distributed, to take damage from the Q and put it on E would mean more chance to fail and more damage lost if used defensively. To put it on W would overload this ability and to put it on R... yeah more miss chance and same situation than before: No trade potential until level 6.

  • VFX on DoT I wouldn't mind to have a small symbol over the head of the enemies to show their bleeding... Not at all. Just think on clones...

  • Shark Size The R is also a very common topic, here. The reason for the Rework of R was basically: It felt unfair to play against and it didn't matter on which range you hit. The triad-off basically was that the biggest shark was even stronger than the old R in general. Its probably one of these things Riot won't rework because of that. But if Zoe can have a Bubble on the ground why don't Fizz can have a Shark? ¯_(ツ)_/¯

Ideas for changes which could help:

  • DoT I would leave the DoT as he is. He is not an disadvantage or useless. But making the DoT more meaningfull sounds not bad... the problem is the balancing. I personally wouldn't want to overbuff it. Because it causes just the Ban rates to explode.

  • Damage The Damage, I mentioned earlier, seem a but underperforming. The Problem with cutting the Damage in pieces is always that you need more effort to apply it the same amount. This is later in the game a bigger issue at the beginning... Maybe put Fizz in a really awkward place. To maybe compensate some of these "damage gaps", there are just 3 possibilities which I can think of: - Increasing Base damage in later Levels (damage scaling): This is only a bit of a help but also makes the champion more attempting for just going Bruiser. What we don't want. Basically this option is out. _- Increasing AP Scaling: _ The "simplest" method but to help his W... right now we are a good junk away to life values IF we get a full rotation out. - Adding % missing health HP per 100AP: This option only works with AP condition. We all know the Bruiser abuse. Per AP encourages also to Build AP instead of AS or Bruiser because with no AP its useless. But it is a very powerful tool which might require to reduce the AP scaling in total.

  • Better Cooldown? I maybe would take the Cooldown Timer after the On-Hit of the W is down. It makes it a bit more logical and convenient (for me at least)-

General seem this Rework better than the last one. It looks thoughtful, feels more fluently and has a new flair with familiar touch to it. Is it better than the current one? I wish I could tell that. Which changes always coming new pro's and con's. (Basically that PBE is currently very broken makes it not easier)

If you made it so far down and didn't downvoted me already, I thank you for your patients and I hope I could give constructive critic. I hope I didn't forget anything.

Fízz v26/30/2018, 9:58:22 AM5 votes

Hey, regarding the 6/29 update: Do you think 6 seconds would be too good with the change or why did you reduce it?/do you think it will stay at 5 now?

Also, what are your thoughts on making the dot an execute/putting more power into it in general instead of the W active? I think thats something that a lot of Fizz players would want since it used to be one of the strongest parts of his kit.

Fisherman Fizz7/6/2018, 11:21:15 PM4 votes

Glad to see the extra DoT on q/ult being removed, it seemed pretty tacked-on without the mark. Imo I think the active already felt pretty decent and would have rather seem some more power put into the DoT damage itself instead of the initial hit.

Right now the DoT feels like it's in a spot where it's useful but not very noticeable or appreciable. I wish it could be changed in a way that gives it some high moments where it's easy to see and appreciate the damage it's doing without just straight overbuffing it.

When playing, attention tends to be focused on the DoT after you've finished your trade/all-in and are watching to see if the bleed ticks will finish them off. Attention is focused away from the DoT during the actual combat itself, so the best way to make it more appreciable is to change it in such a way that it does the most damage after the player has finished their rotation and it watching their hp tick away.

SeeKerŻ6/29/2018, 2:08:23 AM4 votes

Tried him on PBE and it feels really nostalgic and less painful to play for us Fizz players. I know the numbers were inteded to be low just so we could try how it felt to play but i'd suggest to go from 18-14 on the cd to 14-10. Well why ? Because Kayle on her E max rank and with cdr can have a 100% uptime so why not fizz ?

Also going from 25% to 35%/40% since there are no more % missing health dmg and the 20% bonus dmg amp from shark was removed so there is really less damage/dps than before.

Otherwise I really like these changes, thanks Neurocat and Scruffy for listening to us.

Fisherman Fizz6/29/2018, 11:31:27 PM4 votes

Hey, I've been able to get a couple proper PBE games in now! After actually getting to play them with all the abilities working here's my overall feedback again:

  1. Feel of the active is great! It actually feels like I get to play my old Fizz again and I can't put into words how awesome that is for me. It's also pretty nice actually having the resets. So long as you're not zoned off of minions you can last hit under tower surprisingly well and it helps give you some tools to manage your minions despite being a pure melee champion. This is important to play him at higher Elos imo.

  2. Cooldown is too long early but in a good spot later on. I think it's better that his W has some downtime because it lets his window with the active on be more powerful than if it were just up all the time. Plus it better fits the windows of power thing yall were mentioning. The idea of changing the CD to after the buff wears off seems like it's definitely going to be an improvement and make it even better feeling :D

  3. Could his W icon turn purple when the on-hit buff is active? This isn't a huge deal but it helps with clarity a little bit for the Fizz player and it'd be a tiny nostalgia buff.

  4. The DoT is something you sort of realize is actually functioning somewhat after playing without a DoT at all for a day. However it still doesn't FEEL good to use. I'd like to see this buffed up to where it's noticeable, but the hard part is doing that without taking up too much power budget or making tanky builds usable.

  5. The bubble effect on his DoT feels a bit underwhelming visually. I think it's just because of his trident mark being there for so long that it feels weird having nothing replace it. I think a new visual that's louder than the bubbles but smaller than the trident mark would be nice to have and also make the different skins feel nicer.

  6. The new W does somewhat help his smaller ults feel less frustrating. I don't think it's enough that his ult should never be looked at in the future but at least it's something for now :D

  7. I know I've said it a few times but just wanna make absolutely sure it's seen: The DoT doesn't need to be attached to his ult or applied AoE by his Q anymore. No reason for these to be there without the W mark.

More nitpicky stuff/me nerding out a bit:

  1. Initial hit damage feels good. On-hit damage feels just the slightest bit low right now. Minor buff to AP ratio I think would be nice later in the cycle after you have a better idea how the new W feels.

  2. To make his DoT more noticeable I have a few ideas that could maybe work:

Making the AP ratio scale up to 2x based on their missing hp. This is similar to that first iteration of his W on pbe, but maybe it'll make a better fit on his passive DoT instead. Something like making the ratio .4(1 + .missingHP%). I figured applying it just to the ratio might help prevent tanky builds from abusing it. The upside is that you'll notice the DoT the most often against low hp targets when you're paying attention the most. The downside is that it could potentially be too strong against squishies and too weak against tanky targets.

Re-add the % missing hp damage, but split it between base damage and AP ratio instead of being purely base damage. An example for values would be something like 2%/2.25%/2.5%/2.75%/3% + (.01 * AP %). That's around half the base damage the old version had after its nerf. I thought at first that making it purely AP scaling would be a good idea, but on second thought that'd be way too weak early and way too strong late since it's basically multiplicative scaling. The upside to this is that it'll be more noticeable against both squishy and tanky targets as well as having the nostalgia factor. The downside is that it still might be too weak early/too strong late.

Having the DoT get much stronger for a few seconds after meeting some condition. Maybe something like hitting 3 autos without the DoT dropping, or autoing them after a 1s delay. I personally dont like this approach at all because it's basically the Live W just with his DoT, so much so that it'd even be possible to reuse the W mark assets with this.

Making the DoT scale like the one rune in precision tree, the one that makes your damage stronger against targets with more total hp than you. This seems like kind of a gross solution, but has the advantage that it actively discourages building tank more than any other solution by literally lowering your damage. It's also a soft limiter on his snowball potential because his base HP from being a higher level than the enemy will lower his damage a bit. Putting a cap on it could help prevent him from being too strong against tanks, and also would give him some jungling potential without making it too broken.

  1. I think the ult feels a bit better just from the W changes, but I think it still needs some numbers tuning to feel a bit nicer. The damage should be flattened between the 3 ults a bit, and I wouldn't mind a small overall decrease in power to do this. Something like adding 25 base damage to guppy shark at all ranks and taking 25 away from the big shark (so there's 50 difference between each size instead of 75). Also making the AP ratio increase by the same amount with each size increase for consistency, so something like .7/.9/1.1 would feel better.

Ok that's my new wall of text. I hope I'm not saying too much lol, I just really like Fizz.

Klarado6/28/2018, 8:55:17 PM4 votes

EUW mid-high diamond fizz main here with some pennies to add. Have seen fizz in all of his states(since s3), still playing the champ. I must say that the first variation of changes didn't really make me feel good about it because they felt clunky and looked more like an attempt to make something out of nothing. I still have a hard time understanding your measurements of 'intuitivity' and 'clarity' because for me his current W looks just fine in these terms. Either way, if you are to change his W, the first approach didn't seem that good in terms mentioned by other people overhere such as csing, comboing, mana management, etc. This one though looks much more comfortable to me and it felt good to read in the first place. The thing that clicked for me is that you managed to maintain the pattern that has grown familiar to current fizz players(since the mass assassin rework) with last-hitting under tower with W while doing this thing you want(raising intuitivity and helping with some pain(?)) and at the same time attemting to not affect his powerlevel by any means(which is doubtful and we'll need to see how this change plays out). It also has some skill involved and it will make the difference between the amount of damage a good and a bad fizz player will be able to dish out, which is another plus to this particular change. So, for me it looks really cool that you managed to hit 3 birds with 1 rock and I'm looking forward to seeing how this change goes. Just don't screw the numbers and we're good to go. ;)

FancyKiddo6/28/2018, 8:21:25 PM3 votes

Oh man, this looks fantastic. THIS I will download PBE to test!

Forsyte Vann6/29/2018, 10:58:28 AM2 votes

If you wanted to make a hybrid between old and live fizz, this is indeed a better option than the first attempt. I do prefer live as he is right now, but you know, if more people prefer old fizz, we'll have to compromise. Anyway, i do agree that the buff W seems a little low in AP ratio? as well as cooldown, but i've seen you're planning on tweaking that already though. Will this buff proc rilays/liandrys?

In A Splash6/29/2018, 5:36:48 PM2 votes

I think Fizz needs more DOT. The old fizz was perfect. Give fizz more DOT and I think this version of him on PBE will be fine. I just played a PBE game and his damage seemed VERY LOW compared to what he can do on live server. I would ult then q e w and kill mostly anyone. Now I just played a bot game and couldn't kill a no item Blitzcrank without fighting him for 20 seconds. Mostly because the passive bleed didn't work so that might be why.

RF Legacy6/29/2018, 10:09:49 PM2 votes

Long-time Fizz player, please read:

I have a nuanced opinion on the current PBE changes. Don't love it or hate it.

I like the playstyle change, people wanted more viability for fights during laning phase and less pure burst damage as the tradeoff. This would make playing Fizz less linear and more fun. Similar to "old" Fizz before the assasain class rework.

However, the current iteration seems far too weak.

His new W has a high CD and low damage numbers. I saw a lot of other commenters notice this as well so rather than add one more voice to the "hes too weak" crowd I want to pivot and say THANK YOU for re-adding the CD reset and mana refund for last hitting. Fizz would have felt ABSOLUTELY HORRIBLE in lane without that part of his W as it would cause him to rely on his E for waveclear which makes him an easy target in lane for harass or all ins.

Aside from this, I noticed some indirect effects of changing his W.

Fizz's current W (on live) is most of his late game burst damage. PBE Fizz lost all of this burst and did not get it back somewhere else in his kit. Do you have plans to balance this out? Because even if his W damage numbers and CDs are fixed to make him viable in lane (like this rework intended) he is still missing a chunk of his late game damage and will become underpowered compared to other assasains. Especially when combined with his current R being made to compliment his current W. Once the W change goes through his R will feel very underwelming (aside from the useless guppy) further weakening Fizz. This, IMO, needs to be addressed.

I think the potential for this change to make Fizz more dynamic and fun to play is there, but it also opens the door to severely weaken the champion as well.

Edit: spelling

Aryogaton6/29/2018, 5:54:07 AM2 votes

I... really don't like this. W being an auto-attack reset but only granting the on-hit after the reset makes it so that you can never use the auto-attack reset and maximize the time you have to apply on-hits at the same time, and if I ignore the auto-attack reset part of W then I'm back to pressing W with every Q like old Fizz, except I traded a bunch of damage and ratios on W for a last-hitting tool and a variable size ult. It feels like an anti-pattern that I can never fully maximize and where I'm always making the wrong decision.

I also don't see how this is any more back-loaded than pre-rework Fizz, because unlike pre-rework Fizz the first auto-attack during the W duration is more powerful than the rest. The only benefit you get from closing any sort of combo with W is an auto-attack reset, but nothing on Fizz's kit scales with an auto-attack reset except AD and a buff that occurs AFTER the auto-attack reset.

Fizz was the first champ I bought and mained and I'm also a game designer for an indie studio, so I have some thoughts on why Fizz feels unsatisfying to play now:

https://boards.pbe.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/client-new-features-feedback/wgmFhsei-as-a-fizz-player-and-as-a-game-designer-heres-my-perspective-on-fizzs-state-and-pbe-changes

Fizz n Flips7/1/2018, 4:34:55 AM2 votes

If you on it, you could revert his Lore as well...

Seto Ka1ba6/29/2018, 2:31:09 PM2 votes

This looks pretty good guys! I haven't tested it yet, but i've put in a decent amount of fizz game time, and this really seems to accomplish most of your goals while keeping fizz pretty intact and fun to play. After some fine tuning I'm hoping this is where we will stay.

Seviel Vorose6/28/2018, 7:10:55 PM1 votes

I don't know why Fizz mains keep saying he lacks damage. When he hits 6, if he lands an R + ignite on you, you're basically dead. Even with a Sheen only.