Skip to content

Quick Gameplay Thoughts: August 29

RiotMeddler··1 votes·69,244 views

Morning all,


Usual Disclaimers

These posts will often contain talk about future work we're doing, or planning to do, that isn't yet guaranteed to ship. The nature of the work could change or, depending on what we discover, projects mentioned may get put delayed or even stopped. If you'd like to see a Tweet whenever a new one of these posts goes up: https://twitter.com/RiotMeddler


Inspiration Keystones

Guess most of you have seen them already, for anyone that hasn't we put out some details this week about a couple of the more unusual keystones from the new runes system. Mentioning this again since we're still hunting for the third keystone from that tree (Inspiration) and ideas would be much appreciated.

https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/developer-corner/4KAg8Y1F-runes-corner-summoner-specialist-and-hextech-freezeray

Traits of inspiration:

  • Non direct damage or tankiness
  • Allows some degree of rule breaking, more so than other trees
  • Can include kiss/curse effects
  • Tends to offer adaptability more than raw power

Traits of keystones:

  • The most powerful runes
  • Tactically relevant - they'll have some impact on how you play moment to moment and can be optimized more than other runes. You're rewarded for continuing to think about them a fair bit post champ select. Some other runes by contrast are more an optimization choice in champ select you don't need to put though into much once the game's started.
  • They can modify a champion's playstyle somewhat, they shouldn't dictate it however.
  • They should be applicable to at least a moderate number of champions (not too niche), while at the same time not be extremely attractive to everyone.
  • You only get one, so there's a really high opportunity cost to them. That means they can have some very game influencing stuff, like being able to swap Summoner Spells, because you've giving up a lot of other power for them. Being able to go from Exhaust/Ignite early to Flash/TP late's strong, giving up the equivalent of Fervor or Thunderlord's however's a pretty meaningful price in combat power to pay.

Ornn

Note: I'm writing this Friday morning, so by the time this post goes up it's possible some of this is out of date, in particular if we hotfix between now and then.

Ornn's currently struggling quite a bit, and we're looking at what circumstances he performs well in and which poorly. At the same time we do expect him to have a pretty significant learning curve and want to try and avoid buffing him too much early on if that'll cause problems down the line (as we overbuffed Ivern in retrospect for example, who also had a pretty sizeable learning curve). We also suspect that Ornn's teams's performance is being dragged down a bit by people rushing the upgraded items he makes available in the wrong circumstances (e.g. going Triforce when it's not the right choice for your champ, or rushing the upgraded Abyssal Mask too early). At the same time Ornn's also got some lower than usual base stats, so it's possible we might want to bump those up a bit at some point, whether in a hotfix or a regular patch.

Tuesday morning update: Adding a bit extra here, rather than just editing the original post, to try and keep things a bit simpler for some of the other regions translating this stuff. We did indeed conclude Ornn was too weak last Friday and gave him a range of base stat buffs and an ult CD buff. He's performing better, though still looks on the weak side. Next step's going to be looking at his passive, in particular ways it's baiting at least some people into poor item choices. Should see some changes on the PBE shortly looking to change that (upgraded items not available until Ornn's a certain level being the starting point). We'll then be assessing how his performance is going over the course of the week, see if we need to make other changes in the next patch or before.


More Spectator Cleanup

Now that the changes to various team indicators have been out in spectator for a while we'll be taking a pass at another round of spectator clean up sometime moderately soon. Goal there is to make it as easy as possible to pick out the important information, in particular in busy team fights that can be really hard to follow. Our next targets are likely to be hiding small amounts of gold income from spectator (e.g. the +1 or +3 from Bandit don't communicate anything meaningful) and hiding some crit text from spectator (no one needs to see spells critting minions for small amounts of magic damage for example).

Other suggestions here most welcomed. Asked about this a while back and got some good suggestions that we got into the 7.16 patch, hoping to find a few more things again, either that are shown in spectator and don't need to be or aren't shown and would be valuable enough to add to justify making it harder to see other stuff.

527 Comments

kirocuto30 votes

New Rune: Extended Return Policy: User can sell items back to the shop for the price they paid for them.

Would be really cool to see a Kennen switch between AP and AD as the situation changes, or Kayle selling her support items to carry late game, tanks like J4 selling armor for AD and surprising the enemy carry or knowing they can safely commit to more damage until it stops being relevant. Supports min/maxing the value of their active items by swapping them around will probably be the main use of this given that they probably already value the tree, but that extra level of power/flexibility seems balanced given that they have to go back to shop to use it (tho I could also see Orn abusing this with regen items...)

DarkRitual22 votes

Keystone: Going out with a bang. Whenever you are killed, you create a blast that deals X + Y damage (adaptive) in an area around you 2 seconds after your death (special case for zombie passives of course).

Hextech Multitool Cooldown of Hextech items you purchase is reduced by 5 seconds. Also Hextech items you own have individual cooldowns instead of sharing a cooldown.

Black Market Access Card You can buy Stealth Wards and Mana Potions, as well as a select number of other items otherwise unavailable (rebalanced items previously removed, or unique new items, lots of choices).

RiotMeddler10 votes

Thanks for some interesting ideas, thoughts on them below. Also, highly appreciate the concise descriptions.

Going out with a Bang - We've tried a few keystones with post death effects, the most interesting IMO being one that was like Karthus passive except it only let you cast spells on your allies. Feedback was pretty consistent though that post death only power's just not worth taking in many circumstances and, even when it is, people have a pretty strong dislike for it (see Zyra, Kog, Sion passives any time they don't give a kill). I still think there's something interesting in this space, we'd need to make the post death bit a secondary effect though, not the core of the spell.

Hextech Multitool - An item master keystone could have promise, though there's some risk it also ends up being a pretty large trap if you shouldn't be stacking those items. Inclination's that something more unique than non shared CDs would help it both be more intriguing and avoid potential burst issues.

Black Market Access Card - Unique shop access also has potential, and we've tried some stuff though not exactly like this. Main things to solve are power versus satisfaction (some effects don't feel great for the amount of power they offer), complexity added (can change things dramatically for allies and opponents as well, putting a lot of mindshare into the keystone for a single player), balance/maintenance cost (takes ongoing time to keep such items balanced, bug free - should that time go into items for everyone instead?).

ModCaptainMårvelous14 votes

How about something to deal with CC for champs?

#Will of the Boards

For each CC effect you take in the span of <x> seconds (Could scale or be flat), you gain increasing CC resistance (INCLUDING DISPLACEMENT), up to 100% for <x> seconds.

Why this?: Melee champions often struggle with CC. In fact, because of this, melee champions are often invalidated or just locked down and blown up. With a keystone like this, melee champions have a counter to heavy CC teams. Also tenacity kind of blows right now so it'd be nice to have the option to have something that defeats CC.

Who is this for?: Primarily bruisers and (gasp) melee carries. The main weakness these champions often face is being easily locked down and blown up before they can do anything. With this keystone, they have the option to specialize against massive CC teams as well as retain some of their build strength without having to forfeit all their damage for defense to survive.

What if ranged champs take this!?: Easy solutions:

  • Make it have a reduced effect on ranged champs.
  • Ranged champs will lose out on damage keystones, which hurts them more than melee champions who tend to have stronger kits.
  • Either way, it should vary based on Heavy CC comps, not just singular CC comps.
GerAvos13 votes

Keystone idea: Replace recall with some new thing.

RiotMeddler17 votes

Any specific thoughts on what? Agree it's a ripe space to change.

acronian16 votes

Maybe like that item in nexus siege. You can place a pad somewhere on the map and channelling recall in fountain will teleport you there

World Ender1 votes

[deleted]

DeathBurst32 votes

4 seconds channel and 5 minutes CD is not a mini-TP, it's the actual Summoner Spell TP.

Galiö7 votes

How about a yordle companion that is summoned for a short duration. He pulls out a chart and measures your champ. He pulls a pot out and runs to fountain. He then runs back to yiur champion and heals his/her health/mana based off your missing health and mana from the time you summoned your yordle. Wheb the yordle retuns he channels the heal for one second. Thr yordle can be killed with 3 autos or spells.

So there is a small initial channel, A travel speed to fountain and back A small channel on return and can be interrupted.

Not bad to balance.

Iowa4 votes

Sounds like the Currier from Dota 2 but for health and mana xd

RiotAD Yuumi45 votes

2 minute channel, teleports you back to champion select. Select if you're worried you got counter-picked

dkznikolaj7 votes

Im gonna quote you on that.

Check the Redmercy discussion video in an hour.

RiotMeddler25 votes

Pfft, you're still gonna pick Blitz regardless.

Bad at games4 votes

Could I additionally take it to ban a champ on the enemy team?? ;)

TrIdInK3 votes

Maybe make recall uninterruptable

Lengarion9 votes

About ornn: I really love playing him but there are a few things that really hold him back.

  1. his q costs way too much mana - how do you survive top against ranged champs like jayce

  2. his w shield has no base scaling like other tanks - in early game fights you think after pressing w you would get a decent shield (like nautilus w/mao heal/j4 w). 12% is just nothing early - give it some decent base scaling. Would also make trinity force build more fun to play even if its abit troll

  3. his e hitbox is too low - I know I will learn it in some time but if you smartcast your e you often miss the wall even tho it looks like it hits

  4. His ult is a fking god and should be coded as a minion - not a projectile that can be blocked by yasuo w.

Would be nice if we see some of those changes in the game.

World Ender8 votes

How's progress going on Aatrox's update? Still expected to be after preseason I'm sure. Curious if it's going to be early season 8 or closer to midseason (or even after that item 3070 )

RiotMeddler10 votes

Definitely after pre-season. Can't offer more details beyond that yet. We put a bunch of initial work into his update mid year that didn't work out. We're rebooting the project again as a result (so still happening, but delayed further since initial directions failed).

dome0251 votes

[deleted]

RiotMeddler6 votes

I don't think we've got any plans for a Vel'Koz splash update at present.

dome0252 votes

Thanks for the answer. I just wanted to give this some attention because he doesn´t really need work (gameplay-/visualwise) on him done. But I feel like his splash art just doesn´t hit the mark. For me it´s just the background on his basic splash which could be improved.


Idea for an inspiration keystone: It allows the player to demolish a small part of a wall.

It would benefit all champions but some can use it of course better than others (champions like Singed or Olaf could benefit the most from it while something like Ezreal or Zed would rather not take it). But I also think that it could be to powerful for a rune and could probably be a summoner spell in terms of power.

RiotMeddler9 votes

Some nice parallel thought there - we did actually try a rune at one point that let you walk through thin walls (similar idea, different execution). Felt like it was too bound to junglers when we tested it. Being able to destroy walls in general temporarily might help broaden that enough? Art cost of making it look good's really high though, so would definitely be out of scope at this point. Something like a Bard E's much more practical to pull off quickly, though wouldn't look as good especially as a permanent effect.

The Yetii Rider1 votes

Why can't junglers have runes for them? It feels like a lot of the runes you're pulling out are mostly for PVP situations, and junglers don't PVP for the large majority of the game.

RiotMeddler6 votes

Runes that are great for junglers are sweet. Runes that are only good for junglers, that junglers should be taking otherwise they're just doing it wrong are what we want to avoid. Early testing suggested a lot of risk of the later, without junglers being that excited about taking/using said rune.

EROTIC RAID BOSS19 votes

no offense but surely Xin Zhao Irelia Skarner and Leona need it way more badly? velkoz's splash is pretty high quality

LostFr0st8 votes

Wondering if part o the problem with Ornn's item upgrades is them being in the first block of the recommended.

Idk if you guys can, but there is likely a win% difference between people with item sets (Ornn block is last) and those without (Ornn block is first).

RiotMeddler12 votes

We've had the same suspicion (placement in recc items leading people to think they should rush items they normally wouldn't). Moving them down a bit as a result.

Will see if we can get data on win % with and without item sets. That's not part of our standard reporting set though, so might not get it before the patch locks.

iahim986 votes

Also, it might be late now, but why have you guys decided to go with the upgrades only giving increased raw stats instead of stronger passives? Harder to balance?

RiotMeddler4 votes

Primarily balance risk yeah.

PokladnicaZla8 votes

Could we please add Healing and Shielding Power values to ability tooltips?

Made this thread a few days ago: https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/b1Q4K1au-riot-why-doesnt-healing-and-shielding-power-have-its-own-value-in-ability-tooltip

Arthastheiceking4 votes

Hello, this was mentioned in the patch chat 7.17

[{quoted}](name=Riot Novalas,realm=NA,application-id=A7LBtoKc,discussion-id=gbAKMKGa,comment-id=00180000,timestamp=2017-08-24T23:58:31.525+0000)

Nothing's in quite yet but live gameplay's looking to either buff Rengar or Warrior. We're not sure which yet (or if it'll happen for 7.18).

Did you come to a conclusion or are you still doing work?

RiotMeddler7 votes

We looked at Warrior as a possible buff target for 7.18 but concluded the issue was that Cinderhulk was too strong, rather than Warrior too weak. It's unlikely we'll have Rengar/Warrior changes in the next few patches since once pre-season hits we'll need to reassess balance needs across the board regardless. We're generally putting all the time we can into landing that as best we can as a result.

LankPants16 votes

I'm still not sure that the way you're dealing with Cinderhulk is at all correct.

I think rather than taking 25 HP off of the item it would be better to just standardise the cost with the other jungle items. The constant reduction of tank stats on items and lowered cost doesn't feel like a good thing for the game.

SzGamer2274 votes

I feel like the third Inspiration keystone should be about mobility and/or deceit, since the goal of the Inspiration tree is to outmaneuver opponents.

Anyways, a problem I see with the Inspiration keystones is that they would require you to invest a large number of your runes into areas that don't benefit your champion's durability or damage. Lesser Inspiration runes would be great as secondary picks after you have a solid investment in your champion's combat power, but taking an Inspiration keystone means you also have to take a handful of other Inspiration runes and leaving only a couple of slots for strengths that synergize directly with a champion's core strengths. You can only have so many runes that give you adaptability before you have no real power to apply once you've outmaneuvered your opponent.

RiotMeddler8 votes

Generally with you on your assessment of Inspiration. We suspect it'll be the most niche tree as a primary style and have been designing it around that - it's for those cases where your champ and/or playstyle mean a pretty significant trade off of combat power for other stuff makes sense. In a lot of cases that just won't be the case and Inspiration secondary instead's probably all that'll be considered.

DeathBurst1 votes

Then, that begs the question, why spend the time and energy to design Inspiration Keystone at all, and why not make it JUST a secondary Path?

Glory ln Death7 votes

Because "niche" does not mean "bad" or "nonexistent".

DeathBurst1 votes

There is an opportunity cost in developing something niche over something more broadly useful. Especially in that case where they seem to have difficulty doing it ---I mean, they are actually asking for inspiration on the boards...---, it's legitimate asking if it's a good idea doing it at all.

If it was rolling smooth and fine, sure, spend a bit of time to serve the unusual playstyles, but here it is not.

Glory ln Death4 votes

You're assuming that they aren't fully on track, or even ahead of schedule, with the other Paths. They are having difficulty with just one keystone in the entire path. One, single rune in the most niche and unique Path they have. Yeah, that's totally going to take away from the rest of the runes.

DeathBurst1 votes

That's not what I said. I asked a question, and you assumed the rest. "Niche doesn't mean bad or inexistent", sure, I never said it meant that. But niche does mean "used by less people", so my fucking QUESTION is justified. Are they allocating their resources properly? Maybe, maybe not. But are you over-reacting? Yes, definitely.

Glory ln Death3 votes

No one ever said your question wasn't justified. The answer was just obvious. Calm down.

smug jinx main3 votes

Hey meddler, so I have been trying to figure out why the ADC meta shifts more drastically than any other role (IMO) (ex: Caitlin is strong at 54% win rate and when lethality gets a slight buff or Cait's AS is nerfed ever so slightly, it almost completely changes the popular and strong picks). Can I get your opinion on why the ADC's are all over the place in terms of playability?

Edit: i do think ADC's are balanced right now I am mostly talking about when someone goes from a 55% win rate to 45% in 2-3 patches like lucian

Kloqdq1 votes

Hey Meddler, when can we expect Pre-season changes starting to role out? And can you hint at any of the possible changes that may be coming in those changes?

RiotMeddler8 votes

Plan is they'll go live sometime around early to mid November, all going according to plan.

PBE would then be early to mid October. For Pre-Season's we generally do more than just the usual 2 weeks on PBE for at least some of the content.

DCYOUNG8884 votes

When can we expect Evelynn's rework to be released? I remember you or another rioter said sometime after Worlds but before preseason. Will a new champion be released in September or October or will Xin's update take place around that time?

Rovert duBelmont1 votes

I saw a mention in the thread of tweaking vision as a possible keystone route (enhanced wards and such). Does that have any potential?

RiotMeddler11 votes

We want to avoid a vision dedicated keystone. If it's a good choice that leads to a world where at least one person per team (almost certainly at least the support) should be taking that keystone and therefore primary tree. That both removes a lot of choice from 20% of players and binds them to a keystone that most will find low satisfaction (see: happiness buying wards, paying for Sightstone, playing support in general for many players).

EROTIC RAID BOSS3 votes

what do you think of a keystone that does something with wards but isn't directly increasing the power of your vision?

idk if you saw my idea for a keystone but it was basically the ability to turn a friendly ward into a trap activated by people stepping near it. obviously there are other possibilities, but I like the idea of adding some fun to wards through an inspiration keystone. since the trap would also reveal the location of a ward, and you wouldn't turn every ward into a trap, I think something like wouldn't become mandatory

RiotMeddler6 votes

I did see that suggestion, actually just came back to respond to it now, though stumbled across this post first.

We tried something somewhat similar a while back where all of your wards would shoot little lazers at nearby enemies, slowing them (and in some versions, damaging them). That lead to a lot of perversion of vision system gameplay, frustration with lack of counterplay and/or easy destruction of your wards depending on what mechanics we used. Your approach of requiring it to be done to a specific ward, assumedly with a CD and power to match, potentially avoids or mitigates those issues enough to make it worth reassessing though. Can't make any guarantees of course, the team's going to beat that idea up a lot though tomorrow, see if we want to throw it into testing.

More from Dev Corner

More by Meddler