Quick Gameplay Thoughts: October 26

RiotMeddler·Oct 26, 2018·1 votes·164,515 views

Hi folks,

Usual Disclaimers

These posts will often contain talk about future work we're doing, or planning to do, that isn't yet guaranteed to ship. The nature of the work could change or, depending on what we discover, projects mentioned may get delayed or even stopped. If you'd like to see a Tweet whenever a new one of these posts goes up: https://twitter.com/RiotMeddler

Runes we're looking at

We're working on some runes, with the goal of shipping some changes during preseason. Run through of what we're trying below:

Changes we're pretty confident in

Dark Harvest - Triggers when you damage a champion below 50% health, dealing bonus damage. Damage increases each time its triggered. Long ish (45s right now) CD>

Makes it more of a finisher, reducing power as poke or genuine one shot (single attack/ability) rune, since it can't trigger on healthy targets. Keeps its stacking nature as a point of difference from other damage runes.

Overgrowth - Gives flat HP per X nearby deaths, with an additional % HP boost after a certain flat HP total has been earned.

Should be more appealing to a wider range of users, rather than just HP stackers as per the current % increase only. In retrospect we over corrected for this looking too appealing to everyone during Runes original development. Should help Resolve be a more attractive secondary tree as a result. Mixture of flat and % HP helps us tune for a wider range of different users.

Changes we're not yet as confident in (need more discussion and testing)

Bone Plating - Potential Removal

Bone Plating's a really strong Rune, even if it's not always recognized as such. It also demands more attention than we think's generally appropriate for a regular rune, given both user and opponent(s) in lane should be tracking its CD.

Shield Bash - New Resolve rune that makes your next basic attack when you've got a shield deal bonus damage, based off your health and the shield amount.

We want Resolve to be a tree that offers both survivability and gives you other benefits based off your defensive stats (Demolish being a good existing example). Shield Bash is an exploration into that, with champs who get shields, whether from their kit, allies or items, being a broad enough pool to offer a moderate sized user base for a Rune. Still looking in particular into how to split power between offensive and defensive effects (e.g. how much should Shield Bash increase shield amount versus deal damage?).

Klepto - Changes to make it useful to a wider audience and less mandatory on Ezreal

Might just involve changing CD, drop rate etc. Might also involve larger changes to how you trigger it, rewards given as well. Still pretty experimental and changing rapidly, hence nothing on the PBE yet.

Celerity - Amplifies other movement speed boosts, instead of providing some constant MS and damage off MS

Looking to make it more of a choice, less general power, particularly less of a general damage contribution. Not sure yet if increasing the power of other hastes gives us sufficient balancing levers for best case users versus others (e.g. if balanced for Rammus, Hecarim etc is it just terrible on almost everyone else?)

Chrysalis - Assessing if still needed

We originally added Chrysalis to open up the Resolve tree to a wider audience. At the time the trade off in going Resolve was pretty steep for some users, given the forced HP from tree stats. We wanted to offer a mixed early defense/later offense option to help with that. Given there'll be freedom to pick your stats from preseason onwards however that need's reduced a lot. Going to reassess Chrysalis as a result.

Yorick in 8.21

We’ve seen Yorick’s winrate drop dramatically in 8.21 off no major gameplay changes. In cases like this that often means a newly introduced pretty impactful bug. That seems particularly likely given we rescripted some of how Yorick’s ult works behind the scenes this patch to fix some other issues, so something unintended could have occured during that work. Looking into what’s going on there right now it seems like there’s probably a bug with his ghoul’s damage in some circumstances. Aiming to get that hotfixed as soon as possible, though not quite sure at time of writing when that will be. Might be done already by the time this is posted, if not hopefully later today.

Edit since time of writing: Got hotfixed yesterday afternoon. Was an issue where summoning the Maiden would reset his ghouls's to their level 1 values instead of being properly based off Yorick's level.

http://ddragon.leagueoflegends.com/cdn/6.24.1/img/champion/Ziggs.png

302 Comments

SnugglePuggle94Oct 26, 201815 votes

#RevertRunesReforged

This stupid system needs to go!! We want our old runes and masteries back!

#REVERT

ItsFreakinHarryOct 26, 20186 votes

{quoted}

#RevertRunesReforged

This stupid system needs to go!! We want our old runes and masteries back!

#REVERT

If by "we" you mean the entire community then no, not really. Other than a small minority of people who think like you it seems to me, and the majority of the community, that Runes Reforged (albeit with bumps and stuff along the way) was a major improvement over the old system.

For one thing the cost of runes was just way too high, especially considering you couldn't change them in champ select. Plus it mostly ended up with people who either spent thousands and thousands of IP/BE on runes and pages, or people like me who just had 2 general pages, one for AP and one for AD. By contrast, Runes Reforged offers much more flexibility in how you pick pre game stats.

I could drone on and on but that is just an example. The work Riot did with Runes Reforged was too much to just "revert" bc a small minority of people that don't like change. If anything, they would probably rework new runes to be similar to old ones while keeping the same visual theme. But even that seems extremely unlikely and unnecessary.

I would suggest saying "I want my old runes and masteries back!" rather than "We want our old runes and masteries back!" since the former is more accurate. Also bring a logical reason to do so, please. Thx :)

SnugglePuggle94Oct 26, 20187 votes

Not getting into an argument here but just saying these two things-

No, it was not a major improvement, in fact it's made the game worse- the major reason why people complain about the state of the game is because of RR.

and two- the majority, or close to it from what I've seen, do not like it and it needs to go.

So yes, I will keep saying "We" want our old stuff back.

Good bye.

ItsFreakinHarryOct 26, 20184 votes

{quoted}

Not getting into an argument here but just saying these two things-

No, it was not a major improvement, in fact it's made the game worse- the major reason why people complain about the state of the game is because of RR.

and two- the majority, or close to it from what I've seen, do not like it and it needs to go.

So yes, I will keep saying "We" want our old stuff back.

Good bye.

Regarding your first point, I am yet to see any proof that Runes Reforged is the #1 cause of game problems. Champion balance is usually the #1 culprit, though there are exceptions (especially if you include bugs/glitches). Think about it, there are VERY few circumstances where a rune can decide the fate of a game. There are PLENTY of circumstances where champion stats/kits decide the fate of a game. Jax taking Grasp vs Electrocute does not completely change how you play (at least optimally). Jax with Electrocute vs Bard with Electrocute are massively different, and both have very different playstyles. So the statement that Runes Reforged is the cause of gameplay issues is grossly incorrect.

Secondly, and this is somewhat related to the first point, where is the group of people that want Runes Reforged reverted? Are they hiding in some shady underground city where they are scared to voice their opinions? Have they been all kidnapped by Riot to suppress their outcries?

I have seen people complain about specific runes, but that is like saying old runes and masteries had no problems too. Granted old runes and masteries weren't balanced much during later seasons compared to new runes but that is because they were not nearly as strong, and thus had way less agency in game.

So no, both of your claims have little basis in reality. Acting like old runes and masteries is better than new runes is more a statement about how you don't like it when things change. Welcome to League, things change. Get over it.

SnugglePuggle94Oct 27, 20185 votes

I see it everywhere. Open your eyes and look.

Besides some horrible game balance decisions, this whole fiasco started with RR. Taking out just about all our defensive runes and masteries, while only giving a select few, and only reimbursing the champions with just one stat- when they had at least two or more, along with adding a shit ton of damage, is the main sole reason why things are such a shitty, snowball fiasco.

Old runes and masteries are way better, and my claims do have basis.

End of story.

Good bye.

True GarenOct 28, 20188 votes

{quoted}

If by "we" you mean the entire community then no, not really. Other than a small minority of people who think like you it seems to me, and the majority of the community, that Runes Reforged (albeit with bumps and stuff along the way) was a major improvement over the old system.

For one thing the cost of runes was just way too high, especially considering you couldn't change them in champ select. Plus it mostly ended up with people who either spent thousands and thousands of IP/BE on runes and pages, or people like me who just had 2 general pages, one for AP and one for AD. By contrast, Runes Reforged offers much more flexibility in how you pick pre game stats.

I could drone on and on but that is just an example. The work Riot did with Runes Reforged was too much to just "revert" bc a small minority of people that don't like change. If anything, they would probably rework new runes to be similar to old ones while keeping the same visual theme. But even that seems extremely unlikely and unnecessary.

I would suggest saying "I want my old runes and masteries back!" rather than "We want our old runes and masteries back!" since the former is more accurate. Also bring a logical reason to do so, please. Thx :)

He clearly wasn't referring to how Runes were obtained. It was pretty clear that he preferred a system that offered finetuning on 60 points.

I'm pretty sure, that he wouldn't mind, if Riot went back to something like the old system, but DID allow changing in champ select (Now feasible, since we have extra time for it).

I also feel certain, that the OP wouldn't have any objection to unlimited free Rune pages, just as we had been given unlimited free Mastery pages.

These aren't the points that people are referring to, when they express dissatisfaction with Runes Reforged. After all, it's the execution of the rune system that should be foremost. How a player gets the runes, and how he changes them, are secondary to the runes themselves. I hope.

Guts ManOct 26, 201813 votes

Hi Meddler,

Any chance you could state your opinion on Wukong's state?

Wukong was nerfed pretty hard (Q and E), especially in comparison to the nerfs done to Irelia and Graves. He was given an 8% attack speed buff after that to bring some power back.

What are your thoughts in his current state? Was he nerfed so harshly because he is a difficult champion to balance?

I think Wukong mains are pretty frustrated, not only because of the nerfs but because of the lack of information / opinion on his state. Check out r/Wukongmains for reference.

Thanks. Hope some info on his state can be released soon.

RiotMeddlerOct 26, 201824 votes

Wukong's design means his performance tends to fall off somewhat with MMR, 'one shot' builds somewhat excepted. Those builds tend to be pretty degenerate in terms of lack of counterplay if they're really strong though, as was the case with Wukong earlier this year.

In terms of raw performance, I think he's somewhere between about right and on the strong side right now in most skill ranges for both jungle and mid performance. He has certainly been a difficult champion to put in a spot where he's balanced and Wukong players report him feeling good to play.

In terms of lack of response I did end up skipping a number of Wukong posts here for a little while. Issue there for me wasn't most of the posts themselves, but the brigading leading to anyone else trying to talk as well getting downvoted and/or drowned out. Really don't want to encourage that approach, given boards upvote/downvote numbers are comparatively low so even a small group can manipulate them heavily.

Guts ManOct 26, 20188 votes

{quoted}

Wukong's design means his performance tends to fall off somewhat with MMR, 'one shot' builds somewhat excepted. Those builds tend to be pretty degenerate in terms of lack of counterplay if they're really strong though, as was the case with Wukong earlier this year.

In terms of raw performance, I think he's somewhere between about right and on the strong side right now in most skill ranges for both jungle and mid performance. He has certainly been a difficult champion to put in a spot where he's balanced and Wukong players report him feeling good to play.

In terms of lack of response I did end up skipping a number of Wukong posts here for a little while. Issue there for me wasn't most of the posts themselves, but the brigading leading to anyone else trying to talk as well getting downvoted and/or drowned out. Really don't want to encourage that approach, given boards upvote/downvote numbers are comparatively low so even a small group can manipulate them heavily.

Thanks a lot for the response, I really appreciate it.

I agree that Wukong's state earlier in the year didn't allow for much counterplay, as a lot of champions (especially squishies) could get one shotted out of stealth without being able to function.

Thanks for your opinion on his performance. I've played a bit of Wukong in the jungle, and while I'm not high elo, I agree that he feels good to play, other than his rank 1 Q. However I understand that his Q is a big part of what causes his burst to be too high and can see why he'd be difficult to balance, he has a very binary kit. I noticed you did not mention his top performance, do you think Wukong should now be played in jungle / mid more so than jungle / top? I've never played him top or mid, so I'm just curious on where you think he should land.

Also, I totally get not answering certain posts which didn't really create a discussion or posts that were unfairly downvoted.

Once again, thanks for your response. I don't want to bombard you with too many questions in a single post, but if there's any new plans for him (a new passive, I see the new spear item might be useful on him), that'd be cool to know as well. Thanks Meddler.

RiotMeddlerOct 26, 20188 votes

Yeah, from memory his performance top is noticeably weaker than mid/jungle. We're not trying to push him into any of those positions specifically, just looks at this point like his kit's better suited to mid and jungle than top based off how the game and his playstyles have evolved.

DontKillMySorakaOct 26, 20184 votes

Another topic:

An idea for Kleptomancy:

Let's make it like Gangplank passive, that you need to do a REAL auto-attack unlike Ezreal Q, Fiora Q etc. Then you can buff the Keystone again that characters like Sona can pick it again.

Pisse de BloosOct 26, 20188 votes

Hi meddler, I think you're not quite right on that point.

Historically wukong toplaners were always the highest elo-wise, the reason is mainly because of the lack of toplane impact in the game, so when he falls behind, it's less of an issue as if he were in jungle or midlane(because he has a meh early game and gets pressured by his opponent)

I understand you guys are concerned about the aoe part of his kit but his ult is vastly underwhelming, if you had to change that ~~ and the passive it would be okay, you shouldn't focus on the fact that his ultimate is part/huge thematic of his kit but instead on how you could make wukong closer to the real monkey king.

Most of the time his rank 1 ultimate base damage is too low to be a threat to the opponent, and afterwards it's what prevents counterplay on a flank. (main burst is his e-auto-q-elec-duskblade combo).

If you check the season 1 spotlight it looks like he was designed to be a triforce bruiser but he really really doesn't fit that, and cannot.

My fellow wukong mains will probably disagree with me on the fact that the ultimate should be changed, but if that prevents him to become healthier overall in any given situation (his early game and splitpushing abilites), there's gonna be a time when it'll have to be changed.

BobaFlautistOct 26, 20183 votes

Any thoughts about just lowering Wukong's numbers across the board?

As in less damage, lower mana costs and cooldowns - I'm not Wukong main, but he's the funnest to play when you're relatively durable and get to use multiple e-q-w combos to weave in and out of a fight and just generally feel like an obnovioud trickster. The problem is, as he stands now, by the time he gets that kind of cdr he also does 75% of a sqiisby's hp with eq, making g him frustrating to play against for people without the mechanics to kite him.

I think he has the potential to be super cool if his abilities are less individually effective, but be gets to use more of them - maybe even with a sharper cdr on his w and a little more e range.

VekknaOct 26, 20187 votes

{quoted}

In terms of lack of response I did end up skipping a number of Wukong posts here for a little while. Issue there for me wasn't most of the posts themselves, but the brigading leading to anyone else trying to talk as well getting downvoted and/or drowned out. Really don't want to encourage that approach, given boards upvote/downvote numbers are comparatively low so even a small group can manipulate them heavily.

If players resort to organizing or persistent lobbying, isn't that a sign that frustration is running high enough that it might be worth addressing? I get that you don't want to validate bad behavior, but letting it fester doesn't seem much better.

Katarina's a good example here. I don't play her post-rework, but I've watched frustration and anger fester in that community from lack of meaningful engagement about that champ. When they brigaded a few months back, it was a last-ditch act of desperation. Obviously people shouldn't act like thirsty apes (myself included), but as a player it's hard to know the most effective way to get answers to questions that have persisted for months or even years.

DCYOUNG888Oct 26, 201812 votes

Will the bruiser items return to this pbe preseason patch?

RiotMeddlerOct 26, 201810 votes

Potentially. Main concern that might stop that at this point is that they overlap quite a bit with existing items (Spear of Shojin and Sterak's, Atma's and Titanic). Should be making a call on that soon though.

Edit: Update on this after talking with the team is we're currently planning to ship Spear but not Atma's, belief being that Spear's users and context are sufficiently different from Sterak's, but Atma's has too much overlap.

JuggernachtOct 27, 20185 votes

{quoted}

Potentially. Main concern that might stop that at this point is that they overlap quite a bit with existing items (Spear of Shojin and Sterak's, Atma's and Titanic). Should be making a call on that soon though.

Edit: Update on this after talking with the team is we're currently planning to ship Spear but not Atma's, belief being that Spear's users and context are sufficiently different from Sterak's, but Atma's has too much overlap.

The stated reason for including spear but not Atma's is that Atma's has too much user overlap, specifically with Titanic. Atma's has four distinct differences, the first is that it gives resitances which are important for a health stacking champion, which is what both items encourage. The second is that it does not give waveclear. The third is that its AD bonus works against towers, which titanic doesn't. The final is that the bonus damage from health granted by Titanic doesn't affect ability damage, only autos.

As a juggernaut splitpush top lane player these differences are really massive for me. I think that titanic does have a place on champions like Shen for example, but there are many places where Atma's could really shine as an alternative. Take for example Illaoi, against tanks Black Cleaver is a superb buy, giving you CDR, damage, and health. Illaoi has more than enough waveclear, and I would argue that she doesn't auto enough to make good use of titanic. Thus Illaoi would like Atma's but not titanic. On the flip side you have a champion like Shen that doesn't have any AD scalings on his abilities, and lacks waveclear, making him a perfect candidate for titanic, but not a great user of Atma's.

The Atma's users don't stop at Illaoi though, champions like Darius, Urgot, Yorick, Nasus, and Aatrox would be great users of Atma's, given most juggernauts generally have better waveclear or don't value it as highly like Nasus or the current iteration of Trundle. As a final note it would allow champions like Sion and Warwick to double down on the AD + Health stacking niche by taking items like Cinderhulk with Titanic and Atma's.

Still not convinced? Let's look at the other item being added, Spear of Shojin. What's looking to be added by Shojin? Teamfighting survivability for relatively high damage squishy fighters or assassins like Xin, Jax, Fiora, Pyke, or Talon. I would argue that we already have an item intended for this purpose, it's called death's dance. The mechanism is slightly different, but the goal is identical, the higher your offenses the harder you get to kill. In addition it even provides CDR too! If any item is redundant it's Shojin, not Atma's, and if Atma's isn't being added for this reason there's definitely no reason to add Shojin. That said I do support both items be added since I enjoy diversity and creativity and I think that providing players with more things to think about and more options is rarely a bad choice.

With all that being said I can understand that there are other reasons for not adding Atma's to the game, but the stated reason of too much overlap is bullshit. I've been following these items since they were put on the PBE several months ago now, since I play top lane I'm a big part of the target audience for both of these items, and I was so sad when they got removed, I consoled myself with the thought that they would be released in the preseason, but now even that is getting taken. I'm not going to sit and watch while they disappear once again. Thanks for reading.

TL;DR: Atma's doesn't have as much overlap with Titanic as Shojin does with Death's Dance and has lots of unique uses and users.

lol you wild wydOct 26, 201812 votes

Sup, I have been peeking some of the current PBE changes and the earlier start times in parallel with the "games will finish faster" goal of the preseason; I am getting the vibe that Riot wants to slowly remove the strategic aspect of League of Legends and turn into an all out team-deathmatch. In my opinion this is one pillar of League that HAS to always exist. Thoughts?

RiotMeddlerOct 26, 201810 votes

We've got no plans or desire to remove the strategic layer of LoL.

What we're targeting with games ending sooner is not all games but games that are already decided. Having a game that's 99% likely to go a certain team's way still drag out for 10 mins when it should be over in 5 is the sort of case we want to address. Games that aren't that decided by contrast we're aiming to have offer better chances of a comeback, hence the changes to early towers and how bounties are calculated.

lol you wild wydOct 26, 20188 votes

From your early testing with the current iteration of numbers, do you think it can fulfill the old estimated time (30-45) that was showcased on the old client when queuing up for 5v5 Summoners Rift? And don't you feel that it is a feasible game duration as Nexus Blitz is targetted for the more casual segment?

Victorious RivenOct 26, 201811 votes

What are your thoughts on black cleaver Meddler item 3071 . There,s been alot of black cleaver posts lately about black cleaver beeing so bad for us from riven reddit. now that its almost pre season is there a possibility you guys can change black cleaver back to its old build patch with warhammer item 3133 and phage item 3044 . its rlly rlly hurts having to delay BC by 1100 because we NEED our dmg . we dont need hp.

Lord TakasonOct 26, 201817 votes

Cleaver is balanced around more champions than Riven fyi

AdalvarOct 26, 20188 votes

Hi Meddler...now that the issues with Ezreal and Lissandra are finished, i'd like to talk about another point on my personal bucket list: item 3027

Currently, the item takes too long to scale up and the pay off at the end isn't really worth it (less mana compared to other mana options and not that much AP). It's gotten to the point where champs that had this as a core item are slowly dropping it. Would you consider tweaking it's passive around so that you gain some added benefit upon reaching the 10 minute stacking mark?

One relatively simple idea would be to shift the damage aura of item 3001 (which doesn't make a lick of sense to belong in a tank item) and place it on item 3027 as a reward for fully stacking the item (which would make a heck of alot more sense due to it's nature as a scaling item).

Your thoughts on the issue and suggestion?

VekknaOct 26, 20184 votes

I personally avoid ROA because first back is a choice between AP and mana, and it just doesn't feel strong enough to compete with the 20% CDR rush items.

Maybe if the build path was item 3802 item 3067 item 1052 ?

I've also thought ROA might be a cool space to re-introduce DFT as a mage item effect that builds out of Bami's Cinder.

AdalvarOct 26, 20182 votes

Problem isn't really the buildpath, plus you already have a DoT item and Scortch, so you don't really need another one.

VekknaOct 26, 20182 votes

I'm just making a point of why I don't build ROA. I would build it if the finished item had CDR and the build path didn't force a choice between AP and mana sustain. If you're opting into a 10-minute delay upon completion, I think it's fair to give the components more laning power and recall flexibility.

I think the hp on ROA would be a great payoff for the 10-minute wait if there weren't so many large trade-offs leading up to the 10-minute timer.

AdalvarOct 26, 20184 votes

That doesn't make sense...the point of scaling items is that you trade early game power for a stronger scaling curve...to make it like the CDR items, would simply muddle the item's identity, not unlike what happened with item 3040 and caused it's own set of balance issues.

Previously ROA was fine with the buildpath it had because it gave you a very high amount of AP, Mana and HP upon the 10 minute completion mark. But once that was nerfed, the item went into a slow descent of uselessness. ROA has mostly been a semi-niche item and there's no need to change the trade-offs, you just need to actually up the 10-minute payoff into something that's actually worth it.

VelasanOct 26, 20181 votes

Funny thing is I really enjoy ROA and have used it on a lot of champs. Then again I also play a lot of Swain mid so I'm bias lol.

Idk about switching the passives though. The aura on abyssal is near melee range and intended for low range tanks. One way might be to increase the healing from the catalyst passive or to give it a minor heal on take downs (like Triumph). Usually ROA builders are mid range champs who are likely to take damage and need the HP for survival, so giving it better survival could help.

Unless your issue with it is the damage it deals compared to ludens?

AdalvarOct 26, 20183 votes

My issue is the lack of pay off for a item that takes 10 minutes to reach full power.

And the original aura of Abyssal was 700 range...they could simply bring it back to that point.

FlemmanOct 26, 20188 votes

Can you still stack overgrowth after getting the % hp boost or is it over past that point?

RiotMeddlerOct 26, 201815 votes

Keeps stacking, just an extra one time bonus for breaking that threshold.

WiccanBKaplanOct 26, 201814 votes

EXTRA BONUS ONE TIME BONUS COME GET YOUR BONUS

RiotMeddlerOct 26, 20189 votes

Ah, yeah, I'm bad with words sometimes. Edited. Thanks.

WiccanBKaplanOct 26, 20186 votes

It's ok Meddler, you are only human.

UniiaOct 26, 20188 votes

Resolve often feels pretty bad to make as main path because the first row only has situational runes and shield bash definitely isnt helping that. On the other hand the middle row has 2 really generic and good runes in second wind and conditioning. Any chance one of those could be swapped into top row? It just feels super meh to take demolish(a win more rune) in a losing matchup when you just want something that actually helps in fighting against a champion.

Buff Riven PlzOct 26, 20186 votes

Any thoughts on changing the scaling cdr rune? Its the rune that give you 1-10CDR depending on level, from levels 1-18? Any plans on changing this?

Sire HippingtonOct 26, 20186 votes

Dark Harvest

Not really sure it will do much for it, not because the change is bad but because electrucute still exists. EC jus is save and reliable aditional burst, so unless Dark Harvests Numbers are simply busted by comparison, it will always stay the default option for aditional burst. As long as we have EC, other burst runes need to offer something other than burst in adition to not be plain better or worse, Predator is a succesfull example.

Overgrowth - Gives flat HP per X nearby deaths, with an additional % HP boost after a certain flat HP total has been earned.

Not a bad thing, but be carefull to not remove to much scaleing options for tanks, tankiness already feels bad later into the game(though that's more an issue of overscaleing damage and mostly an overabundance of anti tank mechanics, especially truedamage since conqueror and %dammage on about everyone)

Bone Plating - Potential Removal

I don't feel like Boneplating is to strong, atleast if you actually play around it similar to yasuos shield. The reason it's used that much is more because people desperatly want more survivabillity, especially for the early lane, and boneplateing is about the only option we have for that. Also, Demolish is often not an ideal choice as it requires you getting quallity time with an tower, which for many champs usually only happens when their with their team in which case towers drop more than fast enough allready, and font of Live is rather specific and doesn't help your self at all, so since BP is the only actuall tradeing too in that row and also the about only rune for early survivabillity it's the go to option.

Shield Bash [...] We want Resolve to be a tree that offers both survivability and gives you other benefits based off your defensive stats

For me, Resolve should be the option for survivabillity, not damage. Haveing other effects based on tankiness like Font of Life or The tower damage from Demolish is fine aswell, But i really don't think resolve should offer much damage, we have 3 other trees that do that. Rather add more tank suited damage options on those trees(like cheap shot), and keep resolve mostly for tankiness and some utillity. Again, we have 3 trees focused on damage, we do not need more damage in the one single tree that is supposed to offer tankiness. I still think the keystones also should focus more on tankiness rather than adding more damage to tanks. There actuall is not one keystone that offers pure tankiness for sololaners... Also, are you guys fine with Grasp? I still think the stacking mechanic should be changed, either to have a hard cap that is realisitic to reach even in bad matchups. Depending on the lane matchup, you can easily have a difference from 100-200hp, which imo is a bit much fluctoation for a keystone.

Celerity... Looking to make it more of a choice

I don't think that makeing it alot more specialiced is going to make it more of a choice, it probably will rather be strong on a few that synergies alot like hecarim or udyr, and usless for the rest. If you want to make an actuall choice rather than mandatory for a few and usless for the rest, how about increasing the ms a bit, or increasing it out of combat like cloud and therefor removeing the adaptive stat boost. This would allow people to pick it if they want to have more ms and nothing else regardless off thier champ.

True GarenOct 28, 20189 votes

I don't feel like Boneplating is to strong, atleast if you actually play around it similar to yasuos shield. The reason it's used that much is more because people desperatly want more survivabillity, especially for the early lane, and boneplateing is about the only option we have for that. Also, Demolish is often not an ideal choice as it requires you getting quallity time with an tower, which for many champs usually only happens when their with their team in which case towers drop more than fast enough allready, and font of Live is rather specific and doesn't help your self at all, so since BP is the only actuall tradeing too in that row and also the about only rune for early survivabillity it's the go to option. [...] We want Resolve to be a tree that offers both survivability and gives you other benefits based off your defensive stats

For me, Resolve should be the option for survivabillity, not damage. Haveing other effects based on tankiness like Font of Life or The tower damage from Demolish is fine aswell, But i really don't think resolve should offer much damage, we have 3 other trees that do that. Rather add more tank suited damage options on those trees(like cheap shot), and keep resolve mostly for tankiness and some utillity. Again, we have 3 trees focused on damage, we do not need more damage in the one single tree that is supposed to offer tankiness. I still think the keystones also should focus more on tankiness rather than adding more damage to tanks. There actuall is not one keystone that offers pure tankiness for sololaners...

Looking to make it more of a choice

I don't think that makeing it alot more specialiced is going to make it more of a choice, it probably will rather be strong on a few that synergies alot like hecarim or udyr, and usless for the rest. If you want to make an actuall choice rather than mandatory for a few and usless for the rest, how about increasing the ms a bit, or increasing it out of combat like cloud and therefor removeing the adaptive stat boost. This would allow people to pick it if they want to have more ms and nothing else regardless off thier champ.

I couldn't have said it more clearly myself. Please listen to this man.

HügöOct 28, 20186 votes

I can tell you right here and right now. With the introduction of shield bash shit like Riven or Urgot will be broken af.

Why do you need to put more and more and more damage into the game? Why not make it a defensive rune in the DEFENSIVE TREE?

Shield Bash: When you have a shield you get a % amount of armor and mr. The % amount will make tanks stronger while things like riven won't benefit to much from it.

True GarenOct 28, 20188 votes

{quoted}

I can tell you right here and right now. With the introduction of shield bash shit like Riven or Urgot will be broken af.

Why do you need to put more and more and more damage into the game? Why not make it a defensive rune in the DEFENSIVE TREE?

Shield Bash: When you have a shield you get a % amount of armor and mr. The % amount will make tanks stronger while things like riven won't benefit to much from it.

Yes, Riven was tested on PBE doing 4.3k damage (end game stat) just on this one secondary rune.

ZaghyrOct 28, 20181 votes

Where is the source for this...

True GarenOct 28, 20188 votes

{quoted}

Where is the source for this...

So, accept my request, and I'll send you end game stat image.

LaughingStaplerOct 26, 20185 votes

The new DH drastically removes skill and decision making. The current iteration has an interesting mini game which tests you on multiple fronts from pathing to positioning (double proc. outplays off monsters/camps etc.), to understanding power spikes well.

The new one is just an artificial "here's more damage" type of rune with basically no decision making. It's also less versatile for diverse playstyles, builds and classes. Please do not go with the new DH iteration or at the very least make the stacking mini game like on live. I really hate the design of the new rune. A big step backwards from every aspect of gameplay/exploration/playstyle etc. It's just mundane and pointless. I don't care whether it's stronger or not. It makes the game less fun.

astralwitOct 27, 20185 votes

If you want to add this new rune, make it a separate thing. Not only are you shafting junglers super hard but you're turning a late game oriented rune into mostly just a snowball feast/famine rune since you can't play intelligently to get stacks when behind (souls from teammates or farming jg/lane in the few areas of the map you can still control).

Even if you reach late game in a one-sided game with this new rune, it will do nothing for you since you won't really have stacks. It's not about risk vs reward. It's just luck."oh my team's ahead from dicerolling a good SQ team and now I snowball and easily farm stacks so the enemy team can suffer even more" or "oh I have no lanes so I can't do anything this game and also can't scale even if I reach late game because "getting stacks" would mean dying non-stop."

Moreover, the current DH is a great teamfight rune due to the sources of stacks. This new one is much less oriented this way despite the takedown reset. It's not a replacement. It's an entirely different purpose and style. Junglers need a rune too (for more than a pure early play style) and it's not at all fair for jungle players to be treated as second class citizens when it comes to runes.

I also think it's going to be way more frustrating to face. Just when I think I will live, their new DH damage + assassin execute abilities surprises me at sub 50%. Just why ruin a good rune with some actual planning and thinking behind it only to replace it with something so devoid of mastery expression. It's literally nothing more than "extra damage for being you".

I also see some curious comments about this rune and jungling, such as this one from Riot Rovient:

You gank lanes you feel you have a good chance of killing, right? They'll have to be under 50% HP in order to kill them or even force a flash in most cases.

Looking for lanes to be low is NOT how you jungle at all. Even WW mains don't play like this. Ganks involve countless factors and HP is only one of many. Usually, you will be ganking based on pathing gold efficiency if opportunities turn up. However, you are primarily thinking about matchups, win conditions (can this lane carry the game? can they be useful if behind or are they feast/famine? etc.), wave positioning, summoner spells, VIDION, kit considerations such as escapes and the CDs of those etc. Most of the lanes a good jungler ganks are not going to be low HP. That's not the primary determinant of whether or not a gank is smart.

BobaFlautistOct 26, 20184 votes

{quoted}

Hmm, lemme see if that's data we can easily pull and share or not. No promises, but agree it's a good question.

Last one of these I asked about data on champion winrate as their opponents have more experience against them, I don't suppose you've had a chance to ask the data nerds? (Hope it's obvious that's intended as an affectionate term).

Edit: ok maybe not quite the last one if it's been 21 days. One of these!

RiotMeddlerOct 26, 20186 votes

Turns out it's not the easiest topic to get data into a presentable format on unfortunately. Got a request for it on a backlog in case we look at polishing it up for some other purpose as well, don't want to take the time away from other work though otherwise.

xCrunchyOct 26, 20181 votes

How can i understand the new Celerity?^does it effect Jinx or Jhins passive too?

Daddy AntsOct 26, 20186 votes

[{quoted}](name=J is for Jinx,realm=EUW,application-id=A7LBtoKc,discussion-id=aIL8lE5J,comment-id=002a,timestamp=2018-10-26T16:33:47.591+0000)

How can i understand the new Celerity?^does it effect Jinx or Jhins passive too?

it affects ANY movement speed steroid.

Jinx Passive Jhin Passive Vayne Passive Taliyah Passive Lulu W

etc

ModThe DjinnOct 26, 20181 votes

{quoted}We're working on some runes, with the goal of shipping some changes during preseason.

A few questions about that, if you have time

Precision Slot 1: Are Overheal and Presence of Mind things that get used a suitable amount? It feels like Triumph is definitely the most appreciable, at least.
Precision Slot 3: Do you feel there's enough meaningful difference in choice between Coup de Grace, Cut Down, and Last Stand vs. other slots? To me these all feel like "pick the highest damage" without a ton of consideration needed. Resolve Slot 1 & 3: Have you considered shuffling these around, especially with the removal of Bone Plating? Slot 1 seems to not have a good generic option otherwise, and Font of Life seems like it could swap with Unflinching to provide a "utility" defense slot and a "sustain" defense slot.

True GarenOct 28, 20187 votes

[{quoted}](name=The Djinn,realm=NA,application-id=A7LBtoKc,discussion-id=aIL8lE5J,comment-id=003c,timestamp=2018-10-26T17:03:52.148+0000)

A few questions about that, if you have time

Precision Slot 1: Are Overheal and Presence of Mind things that get used a suitable amount? It feels like Triumph is definitely the most appreciable, at least.

Precision Slot 3: Do you feel there's enough meaningful difference in choice between Coup de Grace, Cut Down, and Last Stand vs. other slots? To me these all feel like "pick the highest damage" without a ton of consideration needed. Resolve Slot 1 & 3: Have you considered shuffling these around, especially with the removal of Bone Plating? Slot 1 seems to not have a good generic option otherwise, and Font of Life seems like it could swap with Unflinching to provide a "utility" defense slot and a "sustain" defense slot.

Overheal is useful. (Early on the season we got to see just how useful it could be...) And if Shield Bash goes through, then I would expect even more people taking it.