Quick Gameplay Thoughts: Feb 28

RiotMeddler·2/28/2017, 5:51:48 PM·1 votes·51,521 views

Hi all,

Some stuff on our minds below. As usual things mentioned here aren't necessarily final and this certainly isn't a comprehensive list, just things in a good place to be talked about today.


Marksmen

As per the post a couple of weeks ago (http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/developer-corner/XuAJPHo1-some-follow-up-marksmen-thoughts) we think Utility Marksmen, AD Caster Marksmen and lane bully marksmen are in reasonable spots generally (some exceptions). Crit marksmen definitely still need some work though. For crit marksmen the bulk of that work's going to be in mid-season when we'll likely make some changes to crit and/or armor pen functionality (see testing out different approaches, so hopeful on that stuff, but it's not guaranteed yet, might end up doing something else).

We had some small tweaks that will affect crit marksmen, and marksmen in general in 7.4 (Warlord's Nerf, Fervor Buff, Last Whisper situational buff) too. Apologies for the disconnect between opening patch notes context (talk of big changes) and what was actually in the patch. That was the result of a misunderstanding between people on what we'd be tackling in 7.4 versus what we were targeting for mid-season.


Keystones

As you've probably seen we've got changes to DFT, Bond of Stone (soon to be renamed) and Warlord's Bloodlust on the PBE at present. We're trying to get significant functional changes to Keystones out of the way in one patch if possible, addressing issues with their patterns so that, ideally, we can just focus on numbers tuning for them for a while. That pairs with the reduction to damage contributions from masteries in 7.4 which was the other improvement we'd identified we wanted to target in the shorter term.


Patch Cycles

On a different note I figured it might also be interesting to some people to talk a bit about how our patch development cycles work, in particular why we stop making gameplay changes beyond a certain point and how that impacts how quickly we can respond to some things. It'll also probably be really boring to other people so suggest bailing out here if that doesn't sound like your thing.

Each patch gets locked for bug testing, compatibility checking etc a week before it goes live. That means that with 7.5 for example, which we're currently working on, our last day to make gameplay changes is tomorrow, and even then anything new we add should be pretty minor (want to get the bigger changes that are harder to assess and check for bugs changes in early). That means we've got a week between 7.4 going out and 7.5 getting locked to make changes.

The big exception to that is anything that needs tooltip adjustments. Since those have to be translated into other languages those need to be done earlier again (ideally by the Friday a few days after the previous patch, at latest the Monday after that). It takes a couple of days to get a read on the new game state after a patch too. As a result we start working on a patch before the previous one goes out, based off what we think will happen, and then adjust as needed if our predictions were wrong. For bigger unexpected tasks it can mean we need to take a patch longer as well.

Or, to put that into a rough timeline, since that's a bit of a block of text:

  • 1 week before Patch 7.4 goes out we stop working on patch 7.4 and start working on 7.5.
  • Patch 7.4 goes out.
  • 2 days after patch 7.4 we get a read on how that patch has impacted balance. We've then a couple of days to make additional 7.5 changes if they affect tooltips and a couple of days more again if they don't.
  • 1 week after patch 7.4 goes out we lock down 7.5 completely and start on 7.6 gameplay changes.

We will occasionally hotfix changes in too of course, those add significant extra risk of bugs though, particularly for some types of changes (stat adjustments tend to be pretty safe, things that change game logic like how spells function less so). As a result we try to use those really sparringly, since they get less testing time than changes developed normally and can lead to champions/items getting disabled etc.

128 Comments

Malicious Metal2/28/2017, 8:11:58 PM7 votes

I feel he's in a pretty solid spot and the nerfs to damage masteries have nudged Juggernauts back into the spotlight but what are your thoughts on our residential Revenant Mordekaiser ?^^

Pastor Yorick2/28/2017, 7:09:38 PM7 votes

News on Galio rework? :^)

SOLOQSUPERHERO2/28/2017, 5:55:47 PM6 votes

I really like the rework of Warlords, I like having the keystone to play around.

warpenguin5552/28/2017, 6:09:50 PM5 votes

Is Jayce still getting nerfs?

Albertoplus2/28/2017, 7:22:58 PM5 votes

Warwick bugs fixed when? :S

Spideraxe2/28/2017, 6:07:55 PM5 votes

Oh yeah one more thing, do you guys have official name for those Shyvana scope reworks you've been pumping out since we are gonna get several in the future

4GLTE2/28/2017, 8:47:51 PM4 votes

News on Azir?

Rek'sai in 7.6 ?

Spideraxe2/28/2017, 6:01:54 PM4 votes

Hey meddler can I ask an OT question, do you ever play on OCE since iirc you are from New Zeland and as for an on topic question what are your thoughts on some traditional junglers struggling in the jungle at the moment like Volibear or Udyr

SlyTactician 2/28/2017, 6:28:08 PM4 votes

Hi Meddler, are there any thoughts about Kled Kled right now?

He's been in a relatively good spot since his release and hasn't had many balance issues since (aside from the remount fix and bug issues with his W). However, seems like his pickrate has suddenly spiked this patch so was curious as to what it is thought about him right now.

I really do love this champion as do many others; however, I am a bit worried about his sudden rise in popularity. Is he too strong right now or is it part of his feast or famine character?

Korijenkins2/28/2017, 5:54:43 PM4 votes

"Some stuff our on minds" Meddler u sleepy

Illâoi Evê Siôn2/28/2017, 6:07:58 PM4 votes

Jhin 4 questions:

  1. Does the new Bond of Stone work with Forbidden Idol, Athene's and Ardent Censer?
  2. How will it work on champions like Kayle who can switch between ranged and melee?
  3. Are there any plans for Ohmwrecker and Banner of Command in the mid-season update? 4) Why did you shove Banner into a Tank Support niche when Ohmwrecker exists and does poorly?
Risk of Fate2/28/2017, 6:46:23 PM3 votes

I'm curious as to why you stop working on a patch so early to jumpstart the next one. Granted I'm not a developer, only know some friends that work with coding, but don't you think it would be more beneficial to continue working on it even for 2 more days? At least use them to fix up any last minute bugs/balances and what-not to avoid the early patch issues.

Also, am curious at how you look at the health of a patch when it does go live, do you go by top players, bottom players, or sort of grab a small batch from each group and division? Again, 2 days seems like a very short time span to get a full read of how it's affecting the game. People take roughly a few days to even a week before they're all settled in, just take a look at when a new champion or rework comes out.

Other than that, I actually was playing recently and this patch definitely feels a lot better. Things aren't dying so fast and even Ashe feels solid again taking Fervor. Anyway, take my thoughts with a grain of salt, I don't play quite as much as I used to yet I figured I'd chime in because, while I might not enjoy it, I still want the best for the game and the community.

Rcteg2/28/2017, 6:23:52 PM3 votes

How will the marksman changes affect Yasuo? As a Yasuo main, I'm both excited for buffs and scared of buffs because of how the community treats Yasuo players.... I don't want permabanned Yasuo again.

DCYOUNG8882/28/2017, 7:15:16 PM3 votes

Are you leaving the varus nerfs in even though edge of night got nerfed?

RestTarRr2/28/2017, 9:15:27 PM3 votes

"we think Utility Marksmen, AD Caster Marksmen and lane bully marksmen are in reasonable spots generally (some exceptions). Crit marksmen definitely still need some work though."

How is every mentioned sub class not a crit marksmen? Like what the actual fuck riot? Every single ADC with the exception of Ezreal build ADC. There wouldn't even be 3 lethality items Jhin builds if crit wasn't trash. I seriously don't know how you can go around saying "this and this is fine" when literally every ADC wants to go crit and that's what they build but they simply can't because it's trash. Then how is everything fine?

Lane bullies are fine? How many lane bullies do we have in the meta? Lethality jhin, mid poke varus played in the bot lane, lethality MF and once every 50 games an Ashe. In literally 90% of the games the bullying comes from the support unless you are playing varus who isn't even played like an ADC. He used to be played with crit but well. Crit is so amazing now and no one builds it anymore.

That's like saying "we think mages and ap assassins are in a fine spot but AP is kinda bad now and we'll be looking for a major fix to this problem". These things go hand in hand together. Why in the world would you say "this and this is fine but crit is bad" when the meta is literally 2 ADCs that aren't even played like ADCs. Crit IS ADC role. Crit = not fine, ADC = not fine. Every single ADC other than Ezreal gets anywhere between 30 and 100% crit depending on the game and champion.

Fix your game and please hire new people because you definitely have internal issues if you say "we think Utility Marksmen, AD Caster Marksmen and lane bully marksmen are in reasonable spots".

InTheory2/28/2017, 6:15:27 PM2 votes

[deleted]

Linna Excel2/28/2017, 11:37:59 PM2 votes

Meddler, since all 3 vanguards who are going to be updated are known, can you tell us if there are any tanks riot is happy with in terms of how much damage they put out and how it is put out?

Solidair32/28/2017, 8:29:08 PM2 votes

Meddler, what's the gameplay team's thoughts on how lethality is being used by non assassins? I know you guys are usually cool with other classes using items, so long as they are usually better served by their own class's items.

But recently it really hasn't seemed like that. Marksmen in general right now are ALL using lethality items instead of items intended for their class. The ones who can't make good use of lethality are just not being played much, and why would they? It's hard to compete with builds that are good lategame when marksmen can just build early game items that don't really fall off in any significant effect.

Are you guys going to do anything about it or just leave it for now until you can make greater systemic changes?