Quick Gameplay Thoughts: Feb 28

RiotMeddler·Feb 28, 2017·1 votes·51,521 views

Hi all,

Some stuff on our minds below. As usual things mentioned here aren't necessarily final and this certainly isn't a comprehensive list, just things in a good place to be talked about today.

Marksmen

As per the post a couple of weeks ago (http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/developer-corner/XuAJPHo1-some-follow-up-marksmen-thoughts) we think Utility Marksmen, AD Caster Marksmen and lane bully marksmen are in reasonable spots generally (some exceptions). Crit marksmen definitely still need some work though. For crit marksmen the bulk of that work's going to be in mid-season when we'll likely make some changes to crit and/or armor pen functionality (see testing out different approaches, so hopeful on that stuff, but it's not guaranteed yet, might end up doing something else).

We had some small tweaks that will affect crit marksmen, and marksmen in general in 7.4 (Warlord's Nerf, Fervor Buff, Last Whisper situational buff) too. Apologies for the disconnect between opening patch notes context (talk of big changes) and what was actually in the patch. That was the result of a misunderstanding between people on what we'd be tackling in 7.4 versus what we were targeting for mid-season.

Keystones

As you've probably seen we've got changes to DFT, Bond of Stone (soon to be renamed) and Warlord's Bloodlust on the PBE at present. We're trying to get significant functional changes to Keystones out of the way in one patch if possible, addressing issues with their patterns so that, ideally, we can just focus on numbers tuning for them for a while. That pairs with the reduction to damage contributions from masteries in 7.4 which was the other improvement we'd identified we wanted to target in the shorter term.

Patch Cycles

On a different note I figured it might also be interesting to some people to talk a bit about how our patch development cycles work, in particular why we stop making gameplay changes beyond a certain point and how that impacts how quickly we can respond to some things. It'll also probably be really boring to other people so suggest bailing out here if that doesn't sound like your thing.

Each patch gets locked for bug testing, compatibility checking etc a week before it goes live. That means that with 7.5 for example, which we're currently working on, our last day to make gameplay changes is tomorrow, and even then anything new we add should be pretty minor (want to get the bigger changes that are harder to assess and check for bugs changes in early). That means we've got a week between 7.4 going out and 7.5 getting locked to make changes.

The big exception to that is anything that needs tooltip adjustments. Since those have to be translated into other languages those need to be done earlier again (ideally by the Friday a few days after the previous patch, at latest the Monday after that). It takes a couple of days to get a read on the new game state after a patch too. As a result we start working on a patch before the previous one goes out, based off what we think will happen, and then adjust as needed if our predictions were wrong. For bigger unexpected tasks it can mean we need to take a patch longer as well.

Or, to put that into a rough timeline, since that's a bit of a block of text:

1 week before Patch 7.4 goes out we stop working on patch 7.4 and start working on 7.5.
Patch 7.4 goes out.
2 days after patch 7.4 we get a read on how that patch has impacted balance. We've then a couple of days to make additional 7.5 changes if they affect tooltips and a couple of days more again if they don't.
1 week after patch 7.4 goes out we lock down 7.5 completely and start on 7.6 gameplay changes.

We will occasionally hotfix changes in too of course, those add significant extra risk of bugs though, particularly for some types of changes (stat adjustments tend to be pretty safe, things that change game logic like how spells function less so). As a result we try to use those really sparringly, since they get less testing time than changes developed normally and can lead to champions/items getting disabled etc.

128 Comments

Pastor YorickFeb 28, 20177 votes

News on Galio rework? :^)

RiotMeddlerFeb 28, 201717 votes

I can confirm Galio is getting an update!

Sahn UzalFeb 28, 201710 votes

Sigh, Well played.

Pastor YorickFeb 28, 20174 votes

u my boi meddler

Malicious MetalFeb 28, 20177 votes

I feel he's in a pretty solid spot and the nerfs to damage masteries have nudged Juggernauts back into the spotlight but what are your thoughts on our residential Revenant Mordekaiser ?^^

SOLOQSUPERHEROFeb 28, 20176 votes

I really like the rework of Warlords, I like having the keystone to play around.

SpideraxeFeb 28, 20175 votes

Oh yeah one more thing, do you guys have official name for those Shyvana scope reworks you've been pumping out since we are gonna get several in the future

warpenguin555Feb 28, 20175 votes

Is Jayce still getting nerfs?

RiotMeddlerFeb 28, 20177 votes

Not yet at least. We were considering further nerfs in 7.5, but ended up pulling them until we've seen how the combination of previous nerfs and Ghostblade/Edge of Night/Black Cleaver changes impact him.

CarnicoreFeb 28, 20172 votes

Speaking of which, how do you feel about the state of lethality?

ThighoniaMar 1, 20177 votes

{quoted}

Not yet at least. We were considering further nerfs in 7.5, but ended up pulling them until we've seen how the combination of previous nerfs and Ghostblade/Edge of Night/Black Cleaver changes impact him.

Really? Why? It's been since worlds that Jayce has been absolutely impossible to lane against as a melee champ so before lethality was even a thing why is chunking you for a quarter health at level 2 half a screen away ok? The Dorans shield buffs would have aleviated some of this but those changes aren't happening till 7.5 either I implore you to reconsider one or the other because it's been ridiculous for so much longer than lethality which just exacerbated the problem

FTWolfMar 2, 20172 votes

Yet you want nerfs to a sub 48% winrate champ? No, the dorans shied "buffs" were actually changes that made it weaker against a single opponent lol. They nerfed the champ, nerfed the items and were going to nerf him again, but didn't. That's good because he would've been never viable. The meta is changing games are lasting longer and jayce is getting less useful so calm down.

AlbertoplusFeb 28, 20175 votes

Warwick bugs fixed when? :S

KorijenkinsFeb 28, 20174 votes

"Some stuff our on minds" Meddler u sleepy

RiotMeddlerFeb 28, 20179 votes

{quoted}

"Some stuff our on minds" Meddler u sleepy

Confirmed. Danger of writing these late at night and/or earlier in the morning.

SpideraxeFeb 28, 20174 votes

Hey meddler can I ask an OT question, do you ever play on OCE since iirc you are from New Zeland and as for an on topic question what are your thoughts on some traditional junglers struggling in the jungle at the moment like Volibear or Udyr

RiotMeddlerFeb 28, 20176 votes

I've played occasionally on OCE when back home, or in Australia, for work or a holiday. I don't do so regularly though given the ping's much higher than the NA servers. OCE server was also created after I moved to the US, so I never built up a friends network there specifically, though some people I know do play there mainly now.

Udyr needs a bit of balance work in general. Not a high priority right now, given we've been focusing on bigger things, we did test some possible changes a few weeks back to see if they were a direction worth more exploration though. Something that showed some promise was allowing him to level to 20, thereby finally getting to max out that 4th spell and giving him a late game boost. Confidence in that direction's still mixed though, given some concerns that that's not when he really needs power added most and that if we're doing level cap exceeding other characters might be much stronger thematic fits. Probably get back to looking at that again at some point though.

SolideusFeb 28, 20173 votes

Maybe instead giving him an additional skill-point at level 11 and 16 perhaps? Or even 6 and 11 if that's the part of game-time you want to buff for him.

ClôudeFeb 28, 20173 votes

The thing is, tiger and phoenix aren't unique enough from each other; They're both just damage outputs. If you could make their purposes more unique or clear then this could be interesting.

PusMar 3, 20171 votes

? they are, one is single target dps and the other is aoe clear

SlashStrikerFeb 28, 20173 votes

{quoted}

Udyr needs a bit of balance work in general. Not a high priority right now, given we've been focusing on bigger things, we did test some possible changes a few weeks back to see if they were a direction worth more exploration though. Something that showed some promise was allowing him to level to 20, thereby finally getting to max out that 4th spell and giving him a late game boost. Confidence in that direction's still mixed though, given some concerns that that's not when he really needs power added most and that if we're doing level cap exceeding other characters might be much stronger thematic fits. Probably get back to looking at that again at some point though.

is it possible to remove the 2 s cooldown after switching stances so Udyr can land combos on his enemies?

NergaliMar 1, 20172 votes

udyr is not priority since 3 years he is priority in nerf just, you nerf him coz of some broken items and then nerf the items, udyr should have healthy speed clear since his gank not that good, but as udyr main I can clear jungle with any jungler way faster than udyr. udyr clear no so good now ganks fine but he has no damage and he cant be real tank

1M Gold Udyr XDMar 1, 20172 votes

@Meddler

I don't like this change. This implies that Udyr is a lategame monster, when in reality, he isn't. This is a very hard win condition in which you have split-pushed a lot and have gained a lot of EXP compared to the enemy team, but if the enemy team has already facerolled your team, you can't expect your team to turtle perfectly and keep on splitting.

Not everyone who plays Udyr, plays like Trick2g who enjoys splitpushing all day. I play him like a Sejuani/Shyvana hybrid in teamfights.

Bring in any Crit Champion, Armor Reduction or a % HP true damage champion, and Udyr is nothing lategame. He is absolutely a paper with a lot of fake HP and resistances. This is why Nasus is weaker the higher elo people go, because people can basically kite him to death, similar with Yorick, Volibear and Darius.

His problem lies in the early game. Yorick has ghoul spam, Voli has his health passive, darius has his level 2 power spike.

What does Udyr got? 60 HP shield and a 40 on hit and 40 4 second mini aura DoT. Kills no one but jungle camps. And what then?

People have to go another point in Phoenix to make his clears faster, instead of bear.

His itemizations right now which is really horrible, and which I have explained before.(I don't know what happened to that thread.)

BrionthegodMar 1, 20173 votes

Yo Meddler, i doubt rasing the level cap will help with anything for Udyr. I got like 210k points on him and i had a 85% win rate in late s6, like patch 6.19? He was fairly decent back then, but now i feel like hes getting worse and worse especially as Phoenix. Leathality and LW buffs just destroy you, you dont have enough damage to be a damage dealer and you cant be bulky enough to be a tank and on top of that you arent that mobile. Most Juggernauts tend to be really tanky while dealing insane damage. Darius / Garen / Shyv / Olaf / Voli / Trundle / Nasus
While you got some CC as Udyr it doesnt compensate your low damage output. I think that if you buff his Phoenix proc damage and add an AD ratio while lowering the AoE part the "Not enough damage" part can be fixed to some extent, and maybe add some AD / Armor ratio to his W to make him tankier so he can survive the LW / Leathality abusers and maybe buff his base AD by a few points like 3-4, but i guess if you do all that its gonna make him way too strong.

The only thing that the level 20 cap is gonna do is give him some attack speed buff late game which is irrelevant, the other thing i can see possible is like reducing his GCD from 1 sec to 0,5 and maybe some base stat buffs plus reverting the W nerfs from the whole Ruinic / IBG / Udyr.

KaliersMar 1, 20174 votes

@meddler Tbh i don't think allowing him to get to 20 will fix him. Udyr players usually lose games on the early and/or mid game. Late game, with the last whisper buff/ mobility creep/ %health damage, you will still be trashed. You get a powerspike indeed, but it's a very late powerspike thay won't impact the game that much. IMO

ÜdyrMar 1, 20174 votes

Hey Meddler. Udyr here. Sup. So I'm no longer a priority of yours? I see how it is. item 3070

Udyr OTP here for last 4 seasons. I have some ideas on what to do with Udyr but having him being able to get to level 20 is pretty underwhelming. That usually happens around minute 35 and most games are done by then, especially in pro play. I would like to see that power distributed earlier in the game especially into early Phoenix ranks.

Thematically, his stances are his identity. Without introducing much more complexity, a bit more depth into his gameplay/stances is needed. (ambigouus statement of the year)

I think the biggest opportunity to change is his passive. Monkey's agility is powerful but it doesn't have that 'oomph' where you know it is impacting the game. Additionally, the monkey is not part of his identity so can be overhauled without impacting identity. What about this?

"Udyr Passive - "Hear me Spirits, and Rise to my Call" - Udyr is temporarily (10 seconds) empowered by large jungle monsters he kills, gaining +5 AD, +5% AS, and +5 MS stacking up to 5 times."

risk here is the power farming but you could apply some champion-only mechanic to encourage getting on map to apply the passive.

Alternate kindred-like: "Udyr Passive - "Hear me Spirits, and Rise to my Call" - A random jungle monster is marked throughout the game. When Udyr kills a marked Jungle Monstser Udyr permanently gains x stat x stat x stat..".... " OR Udyr controls the spirit of that monster for 60 seconds."

Bottom line is.... PLEASE provide same vfx and animations to classic skins. Def Not Udyr and Primal are great skins but are really hard to play. The movement is clunky and the vfx are very 2011.

Dragondevil7Mar 6, 20171 votes

Please get to it, Udyr is in a really bad state right now, you might think that its ok but there are a lot of Udyr mains that no longer play him because they can't gain ELO as easily as they could if they played a meta champion-me included. My suggestion would be the lvl 20 change + an early game change + some small overall buff.

Illâoi Evê SiônFeb 28, 20174 votes

Jhin 4 questions:

Does the new Bond of Stone work with Forbidden Idol, Athene's and Ardent Censer?
How will it work on champions like Kayle who can switch between ranged and melee?
Are there any plans for Ohmwrecker and Banner of Command in the mid-season update? 4) Why did you shove Banner into a Tank Support niche when Ohmwrecker exists and does poorly?

RiotMeddlerFeb 28, 20178 votes

From memory yes, it does work with Forbidden Idol, Athene's and Ardent Censer. Censer especially's an interaction we're cautious on, conclusion off testing so far has been it's probably ok so we'll leave it proccing healing effects and adjust if necessray.
Kayle should offer the full scaling when melee, half when ranged (what she's tagged as changes, in the same way form swappers work).
No major changes for Ohmwrecker/Banner, possibly some stat adjustments.
We like the split buildpath locket/Banner offer and a split pushing active's a reasonable pairing with a defensive item. In terms of Ohmwrecker overlap we've never had a version of Ohmwrecker we've been particularly happy with. I expect we'll likely remove it and reuse the name for something else (it's an old 'Refer a Friend' reward reference so we want to keep it around in some form as a result).

GinoSoldierFeb 28, 20172 votes

{quoted}

snip (it's an old 'Refer a Friend' reward reference so we want to keep it around in some form as a result).

Not to mention Ohmwrecker is one of Pentakill's song titles.

L RayquazaFeb 28, 20175 votes

So was Lightbringer and Deathfire Grasp

leaguewutFeb 28, 20174 votes

Hey man, Lightbringer is still the best item on Jhin in Ascension/Dominion

ParessFeb 28, 20173 votes

Or instead of removing Ohmwrecker which is in a pretty bad place right now because its active is too situational to be worth buying, you could also buff it and make it usable on an ally turret similarly of the old Summoner Spell Fortification so that the item becomes a supportive way to temporize both in an Attack phase and Defense phase, creating more dynamism in an Attack phase because offering more possibilities and as of Defense phase a way to temporize strong ennemy attacks under Baron buff for example.

SlyTactician Feb 28, 20174 votes

Hi Meddler, are there any thoughts about Kled Kled right now?

He's been in a relatively good spot since his release and hasn't had many balance issues since (aside from the remount fix and bug issues with his W). However, seems like his pickrate has suddenly spiked this patch so was curious as to what it is thought about him right now.

I really do love this champion as do many others; however, I am a bit worried about his sudden rise in popularity. Is he too strong right now or is it part of his feast or famine character?

4GLTEFeb 28, 20174 votes

News on Azir?

Rek'sai in 7.6 ?

RiotZenonTheStoicMar 1, 20173 votes

Azir will likely require a bigger chunk of changes. We've tentatively scheduled some work soonish (although I last spoke to the team in charge of this about Azir back in January, so the plan may have changed). We'd be looking to change the character at a pattern level where we can feel confident going forward that we can bring his solo queue power up without turning the LCS into Shurima. What that would look like? Who knows!

RctegFeb 28, 20173 votes

How will the marksman changes affect Yasuo? As a Yasuo main, I'm both excited for buffs and scared of buffs because of how the community treats Yasuo players.... I don't want permabanned Yasuo again.

RiotMeddlerFeb 28, 201711 votes

I'd expect we'd need to make some adjustments to a few non marksmen if modifying crit (Yasuo, GP, Trynd etc). Likely goal would be to keep them at their current power level approximately.

Risk of FateFeb 28, 20173 votes

I'm curious as to why you stop working on a patch so early to jumpstart the next one. Granted I'm not a developer, only know some friends that work with coding, but don't you think it would be more beneficial to continue working on it even for 2 more days? At least use them to fix up any last minute bugs/balances and what-not to avoid the early patch issues.

Also, am curious at how you look at the health of a patch when it does go live, do you go by top players, bottom players, or sort of grab a small batch from each group and division? Again, 2 days seems like a very short time span to get a full read of how it's affecting the game. People take roughly a few days to even a week before they're all settled in, just take a look at when a new champion or rework comes out.

Other than that, I actually was playing recently and this patch definitely feels a lot better. Things aren't dying so fast and even Ashe feels solid again taking Fervor. Anyway, take my thoughts with a grain of salt, I don't play quite as much as I used to yet I figured I'd chime in because, while I might not enjoy it, I still want the best for the game and the community.

RiotMeddlerFeb 28, 20176 votes

We stop working on a patch once we get to the point where we need all the remaining time for testing and high priority bug fixes basically. We'd love to continue to make changes right until the patch ships, but need a decent amount of time to ensure the patch will be stable.

2 days doesn't give us a comprehensive understanding of a patch in the slightest, just reliable enough initial reactions (what's really out of line? Did our changes land roughly as hoped?). For bigger changes (larger updates, new champs) we won't try and make a call in the first couple of days generally, since as you say it takes a while for people to learn and adapt. Exception is if something's so far out of line it's obvious even then. We look at a range of stats (average Elo, high Elo, different regions, by game time etc) when assessing impact of changes. Important to mention though that stats are useful, but not what drives our decision making process (they're a tool to be used carefully, not something that should drive priorities themselves).

Glad this patch has been treating you better.

DCYOUNG888Feb 28, 20173 votes

Are you leaving the varus nerfs in even though edge of night got nerfed?

RiotMeddlerFeb 28, 20175 votes

Yes, we think Varus needs nerfs despite the Edge of Night nerf. Initial assessment is that it hasn't hit him meaningfully, probably in part because its active is also useful against him.

RestTarRrFeb 28, 20173 votes

"we think Utility Marksmen, AD Caster Marksmen and lane bully marksmen are in reasonable spots generally (some exceptions). Crit marksmen definitely still need some work though."

How is every mentioned sub class not a crit marksmen? Like what the actual fuck riot? Every single ADC with the exception of Ezreal build ADC. There wouldn't even be 3 lethality items Jhin builds if crit wasn't trash. I seriously don't know how you can go around saying "this and this is fine" when literally every ADC wants to go crit and that's what they build but they simply can't because it's trash. Then how is everything fine?

Lane bullies are fine? How many lane bullies do we have in the meta? Lethality jhin, mid poke varus played in the bot lane, lethality MF and once every 50 games an Ashe. In literally 90% of the games the bullying comes from the support unless you are playing varus who isn't even played like an ADC. He used to be played with crit but well. Crit is so amazing now and no one builds it anymore.

That's like saying "we think mages and ap assassins are in a fine spot but AP is kinda bad now and we'll be looking for a major fix to this problem". These things go hand in hand together. Why in the world would you say "this and this is fine but crit is bad" when the meta is literally 2 ADCs that aren't even played like ADCs. Crit IS ADC role. Crit = not fine, ADC = not fine. Every single ADC other than Ezreal gets anywhere between 30 and 100% crit depending on the game and champion.

Fix your game and please hire new people because you definitely have internal issues if you say "we think Utility Marksmen, AD Caster Marksmen and lane bully marksmen are in reasonable spots".

VengfulFerritMar 3, 20171 votes

{quoted}

"we think Utility Marksmen, AD Caster Marksmen and lane bully marksmen are in reasonable spots generally (some exceptions). Crit marksmen definitely still need some work though."

How is every mentioned sub class not a crit marksmen? Like what the actual fuck riot? Every single ADC with the exception of Ezreal build ADC. There wouldn't even be 3 lethality items Jhin builds if crit wasn't trash. I seriously don't know how you can go around saying "this and this is fine" when literally every ADC wants to go crit and that's what they build but they simply can't because it's trash. Then how is everything fine?

Lane bullies are fine? How many lane bullies do we have in the meta? Lethality jhin, mid poke varus played in the bot lane, lethality MF and once every 50 games an Ashe. In literally 90% of the games the bullying comes from the support unless you are playing varus who isn't even played like an ADC. He used to be played with crit but well. Crit is so amazing now and no one builds it anymore.

That's like saying "we think mages and ap assassins are in a fine spot but AP is kinda bad now and we'll be looking for a major fix to this problem". These things go hand in hand together. Why in the world would you say "this and this is fine but crit is bad" when the meta is literally 2 ADCs that aren't even played like ADCs. Crit IS ADC role. Crit = not fine, ADC = not fine. Every single ADC other than Ezreal gets anywhere between 30 and 100% crit depending on the game and champion.

Fix your game and please hire new people because you definitely have internal issues if you say "we think Utility Marksmen, AD Caster Marksmen and lane bully marksmen are in reasonable spots".

"That's like saying "we think mages and ap assassins are in a fine spot but AP is kinda bad now and we'll be looking for a major fix to this problem". "Not even remotely the same thing AP is similar to AD, the reason (in my opinion) crit isn't as good is because crit means autoing and autoing requies time in which others can burst you too quick. Jhin, Varus, Ezreal, and Cait are top 4 most played ADC's and they all have range/safety.

"Fix your game and please hire new people because you definitely have internal issues if you say "we think Utility Marksmen, AD Caster Marksmen and lane bully marksmen are in reasonable spots"." Are you serious? Saying they have issues because they understand their game better than you do?

InTheoryFeb 28, 20172 votes

[deleted]

RiotMeddlerFeb 28, 20176 votes

I'm not personally confident there are big enough differences, besides power curve and items, between AD caster, lane bully and crit marksmen. How they get power, and when they exert it, are different, tools on their kits are closer than those between other subclasses comparisons though. Utility marksmen are a big more discreet in terms of what they bring to a team, even then though they generally do regular marksmen things otherwise, just somewhat less so generally.

SolideusFeb 28, 20173 votes

Do you think distinguishing the different groups of marksmen into more distinct subclasses would benefit the marksmen's diversity if you decide to give them a class update in a few years? Or might the nature of marksmen just be that they have a more similar core than other classes, and therefore don't really merit subclasses?

Solidair3Feb 28, 20172 votes

Meddler, what's the gameplay team's thoughts on how lethality is being used by non assassins? I know you guys are usually cool with other classes using items, so long as they are usually better served by their own class's items.

But recently it really hasn't seemed like that. Marksmen in general right now are ALL using lethality items instead of items intended for their class. The ones who can't make good use of lethality are just not being played much, and why would they? It's hard to compete with builds that are good lategame when marksmen can just build early game items that don't really fall off in any significant effect.

Are you guys going to do anything about it or just leave it for now until you can make greater systemic changes?

Linna ExcelFeb 28, 20172 votes

Meddler, since all 3 vanguards who are going to be updated are known, can you tell us if there are any tanks riot is happy with in terms of how much damage they put out and how it is put out?