A few gameplay updates

RiotMeddler·Jun 24, 2016·1 votes·53,379 views

Hey folks,

Wanted to follow up on some of the topics we talked about recently in the recent Mid-Season Followup (http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/developer-corner/o7nazGfh-state-of-the-season-mid-season-followup).

**Cloud Drake: **

As previously mentioned we've been holding off on Cloud Drake changes, despite dissatisfied feedback on the buff's value, because we wanted to take some more time to assess its impact, particularly in organized play. At this point it's statistically only just below the average power level of the other drakes. Perception of its impact is dramatically lower however. We're going to try an experimental, and fairly sizable, buff as a result in 6.14 to see what effect impact that has. Current plan is 25 out of combat momvement speed per stack instead of 15.

There's a reasonable risk this is a mechanic that's never going to be sufficiently appreciable relative to its power however. It's possible as a result that we might replace out of combat movement speed with a different movement effect at some point (we do think strategic movement's a good niche for a drake buff). First step though is getting a better understanding of the current mechanic, including whether it's actually good for the game if strategic movement offered in this way is really strong.

**Assassins: **

Will be our next class update in the end of year Pre-Season (November or December). Statikk talks about our goals in some detail in the link below. TLDR is more diverse assassins with more ways for other players to interact with them.

http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/developer-corner/Tnfw1WW6-next-class-update-the-assassins

Support stuff:

A number of support focused changes are coming in 6.13 (which probably releases next week). We've also got some champion changes that showed promise but need more testing time. We'll probably have at least some of those in 6.14 (Leona, maybe Sona, possibly some Alistar stuff we've been playing around with etc).

In terms of the 6.13 changes some of the most significant are those to the XP system and to some items. Couple of posts below from Xypherous that run through a lot of the thinking behind those changes:

http://boards.pbe.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/champions-gameplay-feedback/XWNXaWcc-613-planned-adjustments-to-secondary-systems-part-1-experience-changes

http://boards.pbe.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/champions-gameplay-feedback/NT7UcOWt-613-planned-adjustments-to-more-stuff-part-2-teleport-support-item

Focusing a bit more on Pro Play in 6.14 and 6.15

Finally we'll be prioritizing work on champs that are particular problems in pro play a bit more in the next couple of patches (6.15 is the patch for most, or possibly all, of the Worlds qualifiers). First up we've got changes to Rek'Sai (initial thought - slower tick rate on Tremor sense?) and Azir (less early damage, more of a marksman like damage curve over the course of the game?). There will probably be some more changes prioritized by pro play impact in 6.15 too (Viktor and Karma look likely, potentially others like Elise?).

204 Comments

Utility VeigarJun 24, 201612 votes

Is Heimer getting any changrs that will make him viable in pro scene and somewhat viable/healthy in ranked? He seems to only stomp in pub games but struggles in higher levels. Will he be seeing another rework? I have never seen a Heimer really outshine or be useful.

NotSoEvilDeadJun 24, 20169 votes

Not a huge fan of nerfing rek'sai's tremor sense. That mechanic is part of her appeal. Feels weird to nerf the most unique and interesting part of her kit.

RiotStatikkJun 24, 20166 votes

You're right that it's definitely the most unique part of Rek'Sai and it's super thematic as well.

The biggest issue with Tremor Sense is that it lacks context and situations where it is particularly powerful. It's universally effective and has basically infinite uptime that it takes up the majority of Rek'Sai's power budget - this makes it really hard to make her a holistically satisfying gameplay experience.

I think if we can just find a way to make Tremor Sense ultra powerful all the time or find ways to gate or constrain its usage a bit more - it would go a long way to making her healthier in the long run.

DorkunedAurasJun 25, 20162 votes

Please be extremely careful about Rek'Sai. She's not OP.

Please remember when you're playing with tremor sense that it is her core thematic ability and feels so amazing.

I know you've alienated a number of champion mains over the years, and that I've been lucky as a Rek'Sai main, but please, I beg you, be careful.

xMunchJun 25, 20163 votes

What about making it a distance based ping. Example being if the unit is close the pings are more frequent and the further away they are the pings become less frequent and delayed (speed of sound - exaggerated).

Or maybe some sort of underground echo location, she likes making clicky type sounds anyways. Send out a click every few seconds, display an expanding ring until it hits a unit then that part of the ring "breaks". That way you can see units trying to hide by standing still though you would want that delay to be somewhat high so you can get punished for trying to stand around waiting for a click.

patmax17Jun 25, 20167 votes

What if there was a delay after burrowing before tremor sense kicks in? Or if the range increased the longer you remain burrowed? It would still thematically make sense, and taking power away from tremorsense not by simply making it less effective, but more situational/conditional

VekatJun 25, 20162 votes

Very interesting ideas, hope Riot sees this.

KitsunaJun 26, 20162 votes

I had similar thoughts as well. One of the adjustments I thought of would be "What if she had to stand still for tremorsense to work? And then it has a fade away/fall off time on the buff so she can chase after a detected foe" - It makes sense, she only detects the vibrations when she isn't making them herself and then can chase.

Theoretically you could increase the range, following what Patmax17 said, it increases up to the new maximum the longer she's immobile, making her more of a set-up for a gank, rather than both setup and ganker in one

RiotMeddlerJun 24, 20166 votes

We're trying to find something that disproportionately removes power from organized teams using Rek'Sai versus regular players. Tremor Sense seems worthy of investigation as a result. We've held off on nerfing it previously because it's unique and interesting, that doesn't necessarily mean it's in the right spot though (there might be other numbers that are easier to balance, but still meaningfully unique).

Coletrain1Jun 25, 20163 votes

We're trying to find something that disproportionately removes power from organized teams using Rek'Sai versus regular players.

What kind of game are you guys trying to make? This is coming from someone who actually wish the game had voice chat, and likes the idea of dynamic queue (in theory). I feel like you guys need to go all in on the organized teamwork design goals if you're ever going to pull it off.

I don't feel like design goals directed towards both teamwork & individual skill are as mutually inclusive as Riot seems to think they are. Quite frankly, the individual skill when playing in a team environment should mainly be about how good you as an individual player are at doing things like shot-calling, as well as having a strong understanding of strategy and champion synergy.

Please don't be developer #1571 who makes the mistake of trying to make their game everything to everyone, it's a massive problem to the game industry as a whole that has ruined some of my favorite series.

IxtaliKingJun 24, 20166 votes

There will probably be some more changes prioritized by pro play impact in 6.15 too (Viktor and Karma look likely, potentially others like Elise?).

I'm assuming the Karma changes will be a nerf to her RE, right? Please can you guys just give back her shield bomb, it was literally the best thing about her after her rework :(. I really hope you're not planning to just flat out nerf her.

TNHA BaritoneJun 25, 20161 votes

Why would they do that? They wanted her to be an LCS-bunny and not what the champion itself actually was.

IxtaliKingJun 25, 20162 votes

For real

TNHA BaritoneJun 25, 20161 votes

Guess who asked for those shield-buffs?

No one. ;/ She really needs a power shift from shielding to something else. That %2 pick rate on Mid isn't looking too hot.

IxtaliKingJun 25, 20162 votes

Nobody asked for the 5.10 changes either, still got them though. The devs do what they want for better or worse and apparently we've got to just suck it up.

TNHA BaritoneJun 25, 20163 votes

Lmao So true

It's like they change things that we don't want to be changed and then dodge the obvious solution through complete stubbornness. I really do not know how shield-bomb would be broken....

and on a thematic note: It feels like I've witnessed 3 Karmas:

Pre-rework
Pre-shield bomb removal
LCS shield-bot

SilverSquidJun 25, 20164 votes

I'd also like to mention a nice little detail:

There will probably be some more changes prioritized by pro play impact in 6.15 too (Viktor and Karma look likely,

You know who was working on Karma? Ricklessabandon. And guess who was working on Viktor? Ricklessabandon.

I am so sick of that guy's unimaginative and uncommunicative way of implementing changes to champions that were never asked for and create problematic kits anyways. I am also highly doubtful of what he is currently doing with Sona.

TNHA BaritoneJun 25, 20162 votes

Wasn't he the one who changed her in 5.10?

....

Shit

SilverSquidJun 25, 20166 votes

He was:

behind the 5.10 Karma changes,
behind the ill received Soraka changes that had to be changed like twice again since then
behind the Viktor changes the Viktor players disagreed with and now have to be changed again
AND behind the current Sona changes...

TNHA BaritoneJun 25, 20162 votes

I think it's time for you, me, and KingKold93 to start praying.

IxtaliKingJun 25, 20161 votes

Lol I think it is.

TNHA BaritoneJun 25, 20162 votes

Haha I wish I was on EUW with you guys!

SilverSquidJun 25, 20165 votes

Finally we'll be prioritizing work on champs that are particular problems in pro play a bit more in the next couple of patches (6.15 is the patch for most, or possibly all, of the Worlds qualifiers). (...) There will probably be some more changes prioritized by pro play impact in 6.15 too (Viktor and **Karma **look likely, potentially others like Elise?).

To my understanding Karma Karma Karma has been problematic in pro play because:

Her RE has been buffed a lot in 6.6 to make her more competitive as a scaling utility mage in mid.
However, midlane Karma mostly needs to decide between damage (RQ) and utility (RE) , but as a midlaner the damage is usually still more useful.
Support Karma only uses RE in mid to late game, because her damage (RQ) isn't relevant enough, her heal (RW) too selfish and her root (RW) too unreliable.
This means, support Karma got a lot of power, that does neither take skill to apply, can not be countered and does not need any decision making (RE is just superior).

But since her winrate in normal play is slightly below 50%, straight up nerfing her power doesn't make sense.

Karma needs a powershift. Or more precisely; more skill requirement in her kit, to make mastering her harder. Allow her to fail at pro play, instead of giving her free power. If not for the skills themselves, make her decision making harder.

Problematic to me seems the inbalance in her mantras; depending on how you build, one option is nearly always superior. Mage (RQ), Support (RE) and Tank (RW). Can we make the mantras harder to choose from? Like not having RW scale with %hp, but have a flat heal that increases a lot on low hp (making it less OP on tank Karma, and more useful without tank stats)? Maybe give RW a more reliable way of helping, instead of having a long root, that her kit can't use (some people suggested ally healing)? And maybe the damage back on her RE (=shieldbomb)? It was a part of Karma for so long, people love it, and the decision when and where to cast it, made it actually hard to use. Because you lose power if you simply shield your whole team all the time, which makes her automatically subpar in pro play, if not used perfectly?

Aiko UmesawaJun 25, 20164 votes

I agree on ally healing and Shield damaging, and would help karma quite a bit.

HaloDragonXJun 24, 20164 votes

@Meddler do you guys have any plans for Ekko? He's played more as a tank and recent nerfs have practically killed his ability to jungle. Perhaps future changes will turn him into an assassin?

RiotMeddlerJun 24, 20166 votes

We do want him to be building higher damage/low tankiness items. No immediate plans for him right now though, we've both changed him a bit recently and have some other champs we're focused on for the next patch or two.

ShadowNinuaJun 24, 20161 votes

@Meddler when do you think we will see the ryse update in terms of patches.. 6.16? 6.17?

RiotMeddlerJun 24, 20165 votes

That detailed an announcement is something the team working on Ryze should be making at the appropriate time, not someone like myself who's not on the team. Almost guaranteed before 6.18 is as detailed as I should specify sorry.

TerraRisingJun 24, 20162 votes

{quoted}

That detailed an announcement is something the team working on Ryze should be making at the appropriate time, not someone like myself who's not on the team.

So, when you say something like "Yorick's rework is going to be released by Preseason," our automatic response shouldn't be to hold you to it, but to laugh like a goofball and say "That's just Meddler being Meddler?"

Bootleg GayJun 24, 20164 votes

Would there ever be plans to give Cloud Dragon a bonus other than movement speed?

RiotMeddlerJun 24, 20165 votes

{quoted}

There's a reasonable risk this is a mechanic that's never going to be sufficiently appreciable relative to its power however. It's possible as a result that we might replace out of combat movement speed with a different movement effect at some point (we do think strategic movement's a good niche for a drake buff). First step though is getting a better understanding of the current mechanic, including whether it's actually good for the game if strategic movement offered in this way is really strong.

midoriiJun 24, 20162 votes

Would you ever consider cloud drake providing a considerate speed boost when running to allies within a specific range?

This could offer a strategic movement speed buff if coordinated properly amongst teammates that can be seen and felt.

RiotMeddlerJun 24, 20168 votes

Something in that line could be promising. Condensing the MS down to more specific circumstances has promise given it would allow higher, and therefore more noticeable values that when active you played around more, to be used.

dkznikolajJun 24, 20162 votes

How about a lower value that doesnt get removed when in combat :l? 10-20-30 incombat movementspeed can be quite strong, and thats what i mainly see people complain about

RiotMeddlerJun 24, 20162 votes

That'd certainly make it strong, we like the idea of strategic mobility (as opposed to mid combat) because it changes how you play when you've got the buff or are playing against a team with the buff though. In combat movement speed by contrast's a generically good stat that doesn't change decision making as much.

Michael SykesJun 24, 20164 votes

how about a slow reduction like the Boots of Swiftness have? Could also be a useful combat buff

Champion SkinJun 25, 20162 votes

Also isn't cloud drake the one which it is worst to stack because of diminishing returns on movement speed because of the soft caps also it gets slightly weaker when you get boots as well I guess

VanjieJun 25, 20164 votes

I really hope you don't nerf Karma because of the mass shield. I like seeing her in tournament matches and being played mid. If you nerf her damage because of the overbuffed shield, then remove the shield. No one wanted that change and it is probably to strong. If Karma's damage is nerfed at all then what little damage she has, will force her to be only played as a support. Your nerfed her entire identity three years ago and you continue to bottleneck her only as a support.

Her damage doesn't need to be touched because she falls off late game as a mage. The problem is the overbuffed shield and the W, which has always been a problem. If you nerf her after spend what nonsense time you have spent on her, then it will be all true. The truth will be revealed that you don't care about the champion. You didn't care about her three years ago and you don't care about her now, if you should nerf any part of her without compensating Karma somewhere. She's finally getting some time in the spotlight and we feel that you know her kit is not working out. Find a way to make it work instead of nerfing the numbers you implemented. The problem is her kit isn't working . . . . and instead of working on her . . . giving the champion something . . . . . you are only adjusting her numbers.

Either give her a new passive and move the current one to her ult, then nerf her R+E shield . . . . or give her back her shield bomb and have it only proc her passive for half the amount of cooldown it does to others . . .

Karma's shield bomb can be balanced:

The same target cannot take full damage . . . . . from another bomb until said seconds. Long cooldown. It doesn't proc second effects. The damage hits the target directly in front of the shielded minion or ally for more than what is around it.

Mommy EliseJun 25, 20164 votes

You mess with Elise, I mess with you. >.>

(Srsly. Bae is fine where she is. She's just good, like Rek'sai, but honestly I see a lot of pros picking her and failing pretty hard on her then anything.)

YourSh4dowJun 25, 20164 votes

Pls dont nerf Karma... she has enough problems as she is. Changes yes please. pure nerfs NOPE!!!

HadrielJun 25, 20164 votes

Can you hold off from nerfing Karma until the dust settles from support changes? Karma has existed with this power level for much longer than she's been a popular pick. Peeling off the layers from from other supports has made her rise in popularity, but the effect she's having on the game isn't distorting other than her increased pick rate in LCS regions. Her average winrate in competitive play is below 50%, as is her solo queue one. http://lol.esportswikis.com/wiki/Karma/Statistics/2016

I don't think Karma's pickrate is necessarily a reflection of her power level. She's a healthy midlaner and a priority support that doesn't really make teams win more games compared to other meta supports. The reasons why she's prioritized is unclear, she's being used as a bit of a jack of all trades that, in the past, paled to other similar options. I'd hate to see her nerfed unreflectingly; it took many rounds of buffs to see her be competitively viable and I fear an overreaching change will ensure she goes back into the darkness.

When you guys say "we're considering nerfs for x", you include those nerfs during the first day of the cycle. That cycle will have changes for supports on live that will change the power balance, perhaps away from Karma. I just ask that you preserve mid Karma's power level and be judicious with support Karma changes. If RE needs more deliberateness or buildup, tackle that. Just don't kill Karma on a whim, please.

LissandroidJun 25, 20163 votes

Alistar needs his passive updated to reflect what he does In the game. At present what Alistar does in game is get wrecked in 2v2 lanes to Zyra, Sona, Nami, Bard, Soraka, and forces his team to give up early dragons due to bot being pushed in. He has trouble sustaining and trouble all-ining currently. He is a complete mess. Alistar should be the answer to the current support meta. I really hope these changes are significant and positive.

Fisherman FízzJun 24, 20162 votes

Despite the recent nerfs, Fizz is still being picked as a tank toplane, any plans for him in the future patches?

RiotMeddlerJun 24, 20164 votes

Not sure about short term balance changes. As with Ekko we'd rather see him building a bit squishier though.

It's highly likely we'll make at least some small tuning changes to him in the Pre-Season. Larger work's possible, though certainly not guaranteed.

GarrotteJun 24, 20162 votes

@meddler is there a world where cloud gets permanently slain? On a scale of 1 to "C9 giving both supports equal playing time" how committed are you to having 4 different drags?

RiotMeddlerJun 24, 20164 votes

We think having four drakes is pretty important to the elemental drake system creating meaningful game to game variety. Would much rather address issues with one of the drakes than remove it as a result.

DarkIceJun 25, 20162 votes

Please Sona needs changes especially her auras. Their range is not big enough to help the team. Her (E) is not much of use. Sona

Twin TaiIsJun 25, 20162 votes

Dont touch Elise please. She is fine the way she is right now. She is picked cuz she's consistent at what she does. Buff other junglers instead. Just dont remove Elise from playability again....

Derp CranberryJun 25, 20162 votes

Why nerf Karma? She's fine in both solo Q and even if she's seeing pro play she doesn't really change the whole game. Imo she's fine, no need to need her.