Midseason Durability - Goals and Direction

RiotRiotRepertoir·4/6/2017, 5:05:46 AM·1 votes·100,682 views

Hi everyone,

In the near future, some changes to durability in League are going to hit the PBE in anticipation of the upcoming midseason patch. Before that happens, I wanted to give some brief info on what kinds of things you can expect to see, as well as why we wanted to work on these things. Please note that this post in particular will be more about goals and direction than specific changes, so take numbers with a grain of salt, and know that things are still subject to change pending feedback/tuning. With that brief intro out of the way, let’s get right into it.

MR/lvl for all

Since this is pretty straightforward, we’ll get it out of the way first. Every champion that has no MR/lvl is planned to gain a small amount. This change will probably go mostly unfelt, but should help to curb some especially crazy burst damage cases on squishy champions, and though we have no current plans, it puts us in a better position to do things like use MR/lvl as a tuning level in the future, similar to how we do for Armor/lvl already.

Tank Item Stat Rebalance

Many of the game’s end-tier tank items have approximately half of their gold value in Health and half of it in Armor or MR. With the midseason coming, we’re looking to change some of those proportions slightly so that the items have more of their gold budget in the Armor or MR stat on them. The goal of this change is reduce how spiky first and second item purchases on tanks tend to be, while simultaneously increasing their ability to grow their builds satisfyingly throughout the game.

For an example, Sunfire Cape currently gives a good amount of Health and a good amount of Armor, and with these changes, we’re aiming for it to have slightly less Health and slightly more Armor. By doing these changes, a tank rushing an Armor item like Sunfire Cape will be less effective defensively against the opposing team’s magic damage dealers until they manage to round out their defenses through other items. So in this case, Sunfire Cape has 75 less Health but 10 more Armor.

Tank Item Unique Effect Sharpening

While working on the tank item side of durability, we wanted to increase the excitement of items by making them a bit more about their unique effects. Throughout the items changes, you’ll see small changes to items’ uniques that aim to make them more effective at their intended purpose (and sometimes less effective at more general purposes). For instance, we have some changes that make Dead Man’s Plate deal no bonus damage except at max stacks, and also lose some stacks when basic attacking without max stacks. However, it also stacks up more quickly and its slow no longer decays, both of which help the item better perform its main purposes.

New Defensive Items

In addition to changing some existing items’ effects in the shop, we’re also looking to add a couple new ones. These primarily aim to add a few options that tanks can opt into to protect themselves against common threats they need to deal with. As an example, we’ll be putting a new Armor/MR item on the PBE that is statistically very inefficient, but doubles its Armor/MR when around enemy champions. This positions it as a great choice when you know you need to get in the middle of the enemy team regularly, but not so attractive if splitpushing is a core part of your strategy.

Repurposed Items

Some items in the game have stats and unique effects that conflict with each other. To this end, you’ll be seeing some changes aimed at reimagining existing items to either have new stat lines and build paths, or that simply have their effects swapped with other existing items that we felt would be more fitting. To speak to one of them, Guardian Angel can often not feel like a particularly helpful item. Its stats are attractive to tanks, but its unique effect isn’t very fun for the game on tanks. Its unique effect would be a welcome addition to some damage dealers, but its build path usually feels far too inaccessible or inconvenient to get to. As such, there are some tentative changes on the way for Guardian Angel, as well as a few other items in similar positions.


Closing

Again, things that end up on PBE will be subject to change and/or removal before shipping for midseason. One final thing to note is that, following these change, there will still be some items that aren’t in great shape and are going unchanged for at least the time being. However, our hope is that we’re setting up a good framework around which we can work on individual items in the future and find them good homes in the item shop.

That about does it for the precursor to the midseason durability changes. I probably won’t go into too much detail on individual changes here, but if there are questions about goals and direction that were unclear or that you’d just like some more info on, I’ll try to answer some comments.

Thanks, Repertoir

303 Comments

Dr McB4/6/2017, 8:04:03 AM31 votes

I'm concerned about the stat rebalance making tanks very vulnerable to percentage penetration and true damage. Champions like Fiora, Yasuo and Gangplank are already incredibly difficult to deal with as a tank because they ignore a huge percentage of your armor and it was already difficult to stack HP against them while remaining even remotely effective as a tank for your team. The stat rebalance will exacerbate these champion matchups significantly and change how strong tanks are in the mid to late game by a lot depending on the numbers. Are there any planned changes to counterbalance these issues? Also when the rebalance happens this will make tanks significantly better at operating against lethality based champions, will there be any changes to help lethality champions in the matchup versus tanks?

Edit: Ignore the question about percentage penetration since it has been answered above, but I would still like to know if certain champions who give percentage penetration or true damage will be changed.

Edit2: This will also make ganks more difficult to deal with in lane when the damage types are split. Are there any planned changes around this?

Edit3: This will also negatively affect tanks who use damage reduction. Will there be any changes to address this?

ShadowParker4/6/2017, 5:23:08 AM18 votes

If health is being reduced on several items, won't that hit champions that heavily rely on health scalings? Or are there some more items that their purpose is to supply the demand for health?

Izuha4/6/2017, 6:43:40 PM14 votes

Hey RiotRepertoir,

As a primarily AP mid player, I ask you to reconsider the addition of MR/level scaling for all champions, and take this opportunity to re-examine MR itemization in relation to mages, which I believe is far too powerful in comparison to AP itemization at the moment.

As it stands, current defensive itemization is heavily skewed towards defense rather than offense, and punishes champions that inflict magic damage (traditional mages, not so much dps ones such as Ryze/Cassiopeia ) moreso than physical-damage dealing champions. This also rewards champions with high base damages over scaling champions such as most mages.

The purchase of an item such as item 3065 , which gives HP+MR, counters the AP champion by twofold: the additional HP simply makes it impossible to burst down the champion, while the MR makes it easier for them to shrug off whatever damage you inflict on them. The additional hp regeneration also simply heals any damage they've taken. This is not only for purely defensive items such as Visage, which I do not feel is an extreme offender, but item 3155 and item 3156 , as well as its new brother item 3814 certainly are as they also offer a meaningful amount of offensive stats in addition to their defensive capabilities.

Because AP champions have no other ability to provide sustained damage other than their spells (we do not have access to auto attacks with +1.0 scaling like AD mids do), our only recourse is to buy item 3135 and item 3151, but liandry's passive scales off current health over 3 seconds = - we have no way to inflict sustained damage after our burst combo like Zed or Talon with their item 3071 and auto attacks, and really, nothing to do except walk around until our spells are back up.

I understand that AD mids and AP mids fulfill different niches - but I feel that the current defensive itemization handicap mages in such a way that one or two defensive items render AP mids irrelevant. A Zed or Illaoi can tank my entire combo and proceed to kill me because I am unable to purchase a defensive item and continue to inflict meaningful sustained damage - since I do not have access to sustained auto attack dps like AD champions do, and defensive items for AP have largely become slot-inefficient compared to their AD counterparts: item 3157 vs item 3156 stat efficiency, for example.

I think that the inclusion of additional MR/level for all champions would simply pigeonhole the AP mids into rushing void as 2nd item all the time, since no other item deals as much meaningful damage at 45 MR (achieved by running MR blues or purchasing 1 item 1033) compared to void staff. Those champions who fall behind and cannot complete their void won't be able to contribute meaningfully to teamfights because of how strong defensive items are in negating AP damage.

Perhaps this thought is best explored in-depth in a separate post, since it somewhat detracts from your focus on purely tank itemization, but I believe that the pendulum has swung too much in favour of AD itemization, as it were, and that MR itemization should be re-examined and perhaps tuned appropriately.

TL:DR - There is too many defensive tools available to negate burst damage, but burst damage is the only reliable way to defeat sustained damage champions that can sustain off damage dealt (lifesteal, warlords, death's dance, healing in champion kits, etc).

Thanks,

Liaeriel

darkdill4/6/2017, 10:28:32 AM13 votes

What's happening to Thornmail? No one here has asked about it.

Reworked? Rebalanced? Removed?

I ask because it's a trap item right now that doesn't even work well in its niche cases of Rammus Malphite . The moment your enemies get some MR or lifesteal, the item becomes worthless.

Sasogwa4/6/2017, 1:45:31 PM12 votes

@ Repertoir what is your feeling towards item 3035 item 3071 ?

It feels to me like these counters to armor are way too specialized on heavy anti-armor, rendering borderline bad armor-stacking against full ad comp, unlike magic resist where voidstaff feels fair (good counter, but stacking mr doesn't feel bad either). Are you more comfortable with the current LW than with the old 35% total arpen LW ? (more generalistic, less ANTITANK at all costs)

ESPECIALLY if you plan to put more budget in armor than health in armor+health items

Linna Excel4/6/2017, 6:10:16 AM7 votes

As an example, we’ll be putting a new Armor/MR item on the PBE that is statistically very inefficient, but doubles its Armor/MR when around enemy champions. This positions it as a great choice when you know you need to get in the middle of the enemy team regularly, but not so attractive if splitpushing is a core part of your strategy.

Umm, if you are splitpushing an 1-2 people come to deal with you, aren't you by an enemy champ then?

TrawlOrFead4/6/2017, 6:37:44 AM7 votes

It would be cool if there was an armor + ad item, perhaps similiar to Maw. I feel that the lack of such item is significant to old Aatrox and sustain tanks in general underperforming.

TTK Dreadnought4/6/2017, 5:59:06 AM7 votes

What is your goal on tank scaling? i find them fine mid-game but can get bullied and set behind easily in lane due to lack of defenses and come late game, last whisper (and its builds) and void staff (to a lesser extent) sometimes feel like they do too much. In addition to this, how has the goal of tank damage been worked on? i personally think most tanks are okay involving damage, but i figured everyone else is more curious.

Tank Item Stat Rebalance

Many of the game’s end-tier tank items have approximately half of their gold value in Health and half of it in Armor or MR. With the midseason coming, we’re looking to change some of those proportions slightly so that the items have more of their gold budget in the Armor or MR stat on them. The goal of this change is reduce how spiky first and second item purchases on tanks tend to be, while simultaneously increasing their ability to grow their builds satisfyingly throughout the game.

For an example, Sunfire Cape currently gives a good amount of Health and a good amount of Armor, and with these changes, we’re aiming for it to have slightly less Health and slightly more Armor. By doing these changes, a tank rushing an Armor item like Sunfire Cape will be less effective defensively against the opposing team’s magic damage dealers until they manage to round out their defenses through other items. So in this case, Sunfire Cape has 75 less Health but 10 more Armor.

How does this interact with penetration items? With less health and more Armor/MR, it sounds like penetration items would be stronger but i personally dont know the effective health values by memory.

Would items that are built more for the health be changed some, or maybe a new one?

New Defensive Items

In addition to changing some existing items’ effects in the shop, we’re also looking to add a couple new ones. These primarily aim to add a few options that tanks can opt into to protect themselves against common threats they need to deal with. As an example, we’ll be putting a new Armor/MR item on the PBE that is statistically very inefficient, but doubles its Armor/MR when around enemy champions. This positions it as a great choice when you know you need to get in the middle of the enemy team regularly, but not so attractive if splitpushing is a core part of your strategy.

Ohmwrecker is currently the only HP/Armor/CD item that is suitable for a tanky champion. However, i believe it was mentioned it was gonna be left alone. Will tanks be getting a new Hp/Armor/CD item to reflect the Spirit visage for MR? Would be nice to not invest in an unneeded mana or damage item. I'm fine with running 10% scaling CD blues (at the cost of MR mainly) , but that still leaves me with 30% CD between runes, visage and warmog in a more balanced build unless i sacrifice ninja tabi, swifties or mercs for lucidity. which is usually odd unless im running exhaust TP naut top.

Repurposed Items

Some items in the game have stats and unique effects that conflict with each other. To this end, you’ll be seeing some changes aimed at reimagining existing items to either have new stat lines and build paths, or that simply have their effects swapped with other existing items that we felt would be more fitting. To speak to one of them, Guardian Angel can often not feel like a particularly helpful item. Its stats are attractive to tanks, but its unique effect isn’t very fun for the game on tanks. Its unique effect would be a welcome addition to some damage dealers, but its build path usually feels far too inaccessible or inconvenient to get to. As such, there are some tentative changes on the way for Guardian Angel, as well as a few other items in similar positions.

While items like Merc Scimitar and Zhonyas work well, i find that having a damage item with the passive to be very unfun. And if it was a support item that lets your support "zilean ult" an ally, it would be neat, but would be seen in most games like redemption and locket usually do.

NovaDisk4/6/2017, 8:07:45 AM7 votes

These changes are really going to hurt champs that rely on health, such as Garen and Sejuani, who are really hurting already.

For example, Garen gets stacking Armor/MR, but has low base health for his class to make up for it. This was to incentivize Health stacking on Garen. But if the items he buys don't have any HP to back up his resists, he will end up quite sqishy.

These changes will reinforce what I feel to be a very unhealthy "Shield meta", where if your champ has shields in their kit, they can be an effective tank, but if they're a tanky champ with no shields they just get blown up like the rest.

Big Lincoln4/6/2017, 12:06:38 PM6 votes

nerfing my HP even more, you already lopped off chunks of it from all my core juggernaut items item 3071 item 3742 item 3053 and i'm going to lose even more of it now u_u

pls restore some HP to sterak's at the very least

Landorin4/6/2017, 10:57:37 PM5 votes

Hi RiotRepertoir,

Can you comment on how you think these changes will affect AP champions? After this post and reading the changes on the PBE, It seems like in almost all instances AP champs are going to take a big hit here:

  • Abyssal being swapped with Banshee's is kind of an overall nerf, I think, since it will mean that certain kinds of champions will not be able to take all-ins vs. Abyssal rushers... especially champions who don't have a lot of poke and need to take an all-in off a single spell. Fizz, Lissandra, Morgana come to mind. (I know Morg isn't played much mid anymore, but...). It's also yet another damage nerf, after AP has been stripped off of a lot of items in the past year or so.
  • Guardian Angel gives AD, so it's no longer buildable either. It no longer gives MR which is nice, but it feels like ADs already have a big advantage in "utility itemization" when they have QSS, Maw, Edge of Night, and now GA in their pocket. APs are left with only Zhonya's which, while powerful, is still only situationally useful on a lot of champions, and Banshee's Veil which counters other AP champions harder than it does most ADs, as I mentioned above.
  • MR/lvl being ubiquitous is a clear nerf. AP was reduced across the board to compensate for removing Aegis, but this is just a swing back in the other direction, and it doesn't look like compensation is forthcoming.
  • Adaptive Helm is obvious targeted towards certain kinds of AP champions that are very spammy, and there's only a few of those. But I feel APs have been hefted up by MR itemization having been "meh" for a while, and changing that will disrupt a delicate balance.

I'm not sure any one of those changes is massive enough to be a problem on their own, but bundled together I have a feeling that non-utility AP champions will be in a very poor spot after this patch. Would love to hear your thoughts.

Jackom14/6/2017, 9:58:48 AM5 votes

Any work planned on Righteous Glory? It's supposed to be a great items for vanguards, but it's rarely used

SlashStriker4/6/2017, 11:42:41 AM4 votes

Will we have Armor Item for AD Champions? AP Champion have both Armor and MR items

riste4/6/2017, 7:23:28 AM4 votes

Another affected class by this mid-season update will undoubtedly be juggernauts. Has Riot taken the time to anticipate how these changes will affect the likes of Garen/Darius/Nasus/Illaoi?

ProfDrDeath4/6/2017, 6:05:02 AM3 votes

With the changes to combined HP/Resistance items, is there anything planned for HP tank items, as well?

RageQ24/6/2017, 5:13:54 AM1 votes

So will the the midseason basically be connected to/focused on the tank rework or no? Sorta like the assassin rework how we got new changes and all that.