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Quick Gameplay Thoughts: February 22

RiotMeddler··1 votes·143,058 views

Hi folks,

Usual Disclaimers

These posts will often contain talk about future work we're doing, or planning to do, that isn't yet guaranteed to ship. The nature of the work could change or, depending on what we discover, projects mentioned may get delayed or even stopped. If you'd like to see a Tweet whenever a new one of these posts goes up: https://twitter.com/RiotMeddler

9.5 a simpler patch

9.5 is likely to be a fairly straightforward, and probably comparatively small patch. It'll have a range of champion balance changes in it, current expectation is it won't have any larger changes to game systems though (things like the crit item changes recently for example). We've got work on bounty system improvements underway, those will likely be in 9.6 though.

Some early observations on 9.4

Note, these are being written just hours after the patch went out, so possible a few things have become clearer in the day or so since.

  • Azir and Rek'Sai - both have comparatively small play rates, so it's harder to get a quick read on how they're doing post changes. Looking like both got noteworthy power increases, too early to say much beyond that though.
  • Kai'Sa - Is performing noticeably better post patch even though the only change for her was an update to her recommended items. Good reminder for us when we're assessing balance that a character's potential performance and how they're on average being played can be pretty different. Important to account for what effective playstyles/builds can yield and/or help players intuitively identify such builds as a result.
  • Urgot - Lost a meaningful amount of power as expected. We're still planning on letting him settle for a patch. Likely result after that is we put some power back into him in 9.6 in different places than where it was taken out. Depends on how he performs between now and then though of course.
  • Conqueror - Again, hard to assess off just part of a day of play on the new patch. Some of its users are almost certainly performing quite a bit better with it than before (e.g. Riven, Olaf and Irelia). Early indications suggest others are potentially neutral or a bit worse (e.g. Trynd, Darius and Yi). We're expecting we'll have a much clearer read on its power later today and should then be able to make calls on what sort of follow up is or isn't needed. Most likely target if it's too strong is reducing the amount of Adaptive Force each stack gives, though it would of course depend on in what ways its users were out of line. Not clear yet if any AP champs are effective, or even overpowered, users of it, given not enough people have tried it out yet on champs who weren't good users of the old version. Similarly not yet clear whether there are marksmen for whom it's a great choice, though expect we'll get a clear read on that too soon.

http://ddragon.leagueoflegends.com/cdn/6.24.1/img/champion/Ziggs.png

247 Comments

Libido24 votes

Shen Buffs? He has been 47% wr whole season 8, and season 9 aint looking better either. Sunfirecape buff only covered tiamant nerf.

TV Offline17 votes

Hey Medder, any thoughs, buffs or future plans about Amumu?

Emo Twink7 votes

Same with Annie, both are simple champs that are never touched, and would be nice to see some adjustments.

abuzoz9913 votes

Yeah Amumu and some other tank junglers feel really terrible right now

cotniko5 votes

Yea Meddler, answer please. We, Amumu mains need some love. Buff Amumu

RiotMeddler4 votes

Nothing planned right now. He does fall off in effectiveness and therefore presence noticeably in high MMR games. He's in a reasonable spot power wise though in low/average MMR which means straight buffing him's not a great approach. Satisfaction's mixed as well, wouldn't want to try and solve that with straight power though for a champion who's not just weak across the board. Possible we do some work on him at some point certainly, don't want to offer false hope and suggest it'll definitely happen soon or soonish though.

Alkaîd1 votes

[deleted]

RiotMeddler8 votes

For anyone wondering, no, spamming posts on a bunch of unrelated replies doesn't increase your odds of getting a useful conversation going about the topic you care about, quite the opposite.

mkwstar15 votes

Several sites show Riven on a staggering 54-55%. Is it not time to bring her a notch down?

RiotMeddler18 votes

Yeah, she's certainly out of line. We're waiting on getting a clearer read on Conqueror today before assessing Riven specific changes given early indications suggest she's getting much more out of it than most are. Once we know if we're making Conqueror changes we can then target Riven specifically if needed too.

Marco13916 votes

Hey meddler! I think a large part of that It's the healing being based on pre-mitigation damage and not being reduced on aoe, which means on riven the 10% healing from conq is about equal to 30/40 omnivamp on post mitigation damage also reduced on aoe.

Alkaîd8 votes

[deleted]

Pïco de Galio4 votes

The last time Riven was nerfed: Patch 5.21

Since this patch, Riven has been buffed in 5.24, 6.1, 6.17, 7.24, and 8.13.

But yes, Riven has obviously been nothing but nerfed in these past years, not biased at all.

Alkaîd9 votes

[{quoted}](name=Pïco de Galio,realm=NA,application-id=A7LBtoKc,discussion-id=Vpg853UW,comment-id=0002000100040002,timestamp=2019-02-22T20:39:05.201+0000)

The last time Riven was nerfed: Patch 5.21

Since this patch, Riven has been buffed in 5.24, 6.1, 6.17, 7.24, and 8.13.

But yes, Riven has obviously been nothing but nerfed in these past years, not biased at all.

5.24 - health regen "buff" by 2hp/5. When she previously had lower health regen than soraka who had one of the lowest in the game. Still not really a buff because it doesn't affect anything

6.1 - 5% more AD on her passive, which hmm seems like a blanket buff at lower levels that doesn't actually change anything since you have no AD to affect it yet.

6.17 - 20-40 more base damage and 60-120 more top end damage on ult. Wish I had more time to pull up the posts about this and how insignificant this change was. We begged for the missile speed to be reverted over getting more damage on it because our ult damage isn't nearly as important as how fast it travels.

7.10 Big nerf to DPS and effectiveness of her Qs, which is a fair marginal amount of her damage, because they "normalized it" basically making all previous "buffs" (psst, adjustments because of how minor) meaningless. Losing 30-50 dps on Q combo at level 6 with just a long sword, translates into a lot of lost dps when you actually have items.

7.22-7.24 - already went over this somewhere else. This wasn't a buff, this was when runes reforged and the new keystones came out. A lot of champs were hit with these adjustments to their damage and Cooldowns because of CDR per level runes going away, and flat AD runes going away (as we didn't have minor runes for adaptive force yet in the initial runes reforged)

8.13 Again... health regen is insanely inconsequential when she barely made it into rank 70 on the Hp/5 rankings against all champs. And 10 and 5 seconds off ult CDR on a champ who already builds CDR... that's funny.

Painbringerbabe3 votes

Maybe you are also one of the guys thinking riven has counters , when even garen , considered a major counter of hers for years , has 42.87 % wr against her post platinum tier xD

Alkaîd2 votes

{quoted}

Maybe you are also one of the guys thinking riven has counters , when even garen , considered a major counter of hers for years , has 42.87 % wr against her post platinum tier xD

Uhhh I don't think anyone thinks Garen is a counter to her unless the riven player is terrible. Garen is an extremely straight forward character... Run in with Q, spin on top of them. Once someone with even 10 brain cells figures out how garen is played can counter him with some ease.

Painbringerbabe4 votes

Then explain how people found those "10 brain cells" they lacked for years , not months , since i think that riven used to be at 45% wr against garen post plat until late season 8 - start of season 9 , or around that . Nor riven , nor garen were changed during that time i think , garen nerfs on q were introduced previously . Riven has simply got too strong , face it friend . She deserves to be nerfed .

Alkaîd1 votes

[deleted]

sho ayane3 votes

can you just make your argument without insulting people, its supposed to be a discussion

Pako Reí7 votes

Meddler,

This is one of the major issues with the balance team most people have. Why nerf Riven because you guys made a Rune that allows her to be a good champion. Instead of listening to the people below plat, that are just not able to play against her let alone PLAY her, you shuld listen to the ones which are higher up the ladder.

from what i see now, is that you will nerf Conquerer (already happened in a hotfix) and then nerf Riven because people dont stop crying about it. Most people, like Hashinshin have NEVER ever played her and yet say that she is low risk high reward champion that requires no skill at all. If you pick 100 players from high plat and below and tell them to play Riven for 10 games, they will do nothing but int their games.

This is a major flaw in the current balance team which lead to multiple champions just disappearing from the game such as Jayce for a long time, Talon, Ekko, Viktor (with fleetwork).

You guys should rather do something to conquerer instead of the Champion that was hidden from soloQ for over 3 years and now appearing just because of a Rune. She was decent all these years and now that you changed the Rune she used the most, you want to nerf her to please the crying kids in Iron etc because she seems too OP to handle her but are not even willing to get into customs with friends to practise the matchup. These people are also not willing to even try her out to see that she actually requires some brain to be played to a decent point.

Dets7 votes

Hey Meddler, In regards to Riven's quite large winrate currently, obviously conqueror and spear of shojin are a large factor in it but for at least this patch her E is currently scaling with 100% total AD where as the Wiki states it's meant to scale with bonus AD. If this is the case, this is giving her a far stronger early game as she's getting an extra 60+ on it during the early game and an extra 120 or so on it at level 18. If the Wiki and I are incorrect that's okay, but in case we're not I feel like it's a good place to start as bug fixing that would bring her down a decent amount on top of any conqueror nerfs.

NeverSupporting10 votes

Any thoughts on Shen? Shen

Painbringerbabe9 votes

Hi meddler . I wanted to ask your thoughts about garen atm and whether he needs a buff or not . For many patches in a row he has less than 3% pick rate and barely maintained a close to 50% win rate until patch 9.3 . We are currently at patch 9.4 and he ( already ) is at 46.67 % wr , while having 2.13% pick rate according to op.gg , official statistics site . Being at tier no 5 , he may actually be the worst top laner in the game atm ( post platinum ) . His win rate is really abyssmal for a simple to play champion mechanically . Please consider at least tweaks in his power levels , so that he is somewhat playable in high elo if he cannot be buffed because he would be too oppressive in low elo . Thank you in advance and keep up the good work

MyRabbitLydia5 votes

As a d4 garen main i stopped playing until he gets a fix . I cannot win a single lane right now . Btw , something that the majority of community thinks : GAREN BEATS RIVEN -> AYE , GAREN VS RIVEN 42.87 % WR POST PLAT TIER xD . Better nerf irelia ( based on op.gg statistics , not random things i say or think )

DCYOUNG8886 votes

Are there any plans to buff Aatrox Aatrox this pbe patch and if so how will he be adjusted? Also you mentioned something about Shyvana Shyvana supposed to be getting passive stat buffs for when she kills elder drake is that going to get fixed?

Xayane6 votes

Hi Meddler, nothing coming for very dominant picks in competitive right now aka Ezreal Vladimir Lissandra Leblanc Zoe ?

Blood Teller6 votes

Thoughts on Taliyah Taliyah ? She could use some love.

Shentakill6 votes

Currently, Shen is in the worst state that he's been post-rework since launch. The idea is to keep him balanced around pro play. His post rework kit is centered around teamwork and coordination with nerfs to his solo laning. Creating a very lackluster experience when playing him top. Early levels in his q is still insufficient to farm under tower, the idea of his empowered Q autos is a neat mechanic the problem with it is having to constantly reposition it to make use of it which leads to being at risk of being out of position, you can be punished by the enemy top laner as well as getting caught by the enemy jungler trying to reposition your sword.

With his high Q cooldown early game you have to either use it to trade with an enemy laner when they go in for harass or use it to kill minions to farm effectively due to Shen's low base damage. This ability currently suffers from very low reward for what it's supposed to do. Shen in the top lane, suffers from many bad match ups usually resulting in him getting shoved under tower. Leaving Shen to scrap up what he can and wait until 6 to make a play elsewhere on the map. The problem with this, due to the current meta of tower plating, the enemy top laner will just take free plates resulting in Shen being even further behind. His W, is very powerful when going for an Ult play to save an ally, and comes in handy to mitigate damage in a team fight, again in Solo queue the lack of coordination can cause this ability to not be used to its greatest potential but has a ridiculously long cooldown as well.

His E has always been extremely satisfying to use, landing a taunt on multiple people can change the fight entirely, but also has a long cooldown. His ult has been standard, nerfed at times, but a lower cooldown teleport at 3 minutes and 20 seconds at level 6, and 2 minutes and 40 seconds at level 16. Pre-rework Shen was ultimately more satisfying to use. his in lane sustain with vorpal blades, the on hit heal, as well as his old passive ki strike which made shen a decent duelist as he built more health. The most important thing that made pre-rework Shen enjoying to play was his build diversity, ranging from Tank, bruiser, on-hit, as well as Ap off-tank. As opposed to current Shen's cookie cutter build Tiamat/Sunfire, and the non-AD ratios make building any sort of AD useless on Shen.

Shen is supposed to be Zed's counterpart; a kickass ninja fighting in the name of balance, his current abilities doesn't fit that thematic. It's to the point where playing Shen is a constant frustration, he's just not fun to play in his current state. Shen is considered a tank but with one of the lowest base tank stats in the game, even below some mages and marksman.

Shen is a champion that relies on two items because his wave clear is one of the worst, if not the worst clears in the game. Tiamat and sunfire. His Q damage to minion is so low that he has to pre hit minions under tower. The Shen community has been struggling playing this champion with a dropping winrate. We'd love to have a small sejuani/ezreal rework treatment done to his kit, or at the very least number changes like CD reductions or swapping out those useless AP ratios that shen never builds AP for, into AD or HP scaling.

I'm stuck playing Shen as support because he has better utility there. No worrying about farming or having 2x-3x longer ability cooldowns than most top laners.

DerpyMcGoo216 votes

Currently, Shen is in the worst state that he's been post-rework since launch. The idea is to keep him balanced around pro play. His post rework kit is centered around teamwork and coordination with nerfs to his solo laning. Creating a very lackluster experience when playing him top. Early levels in his q is still insufficient to farm under tower, the idea of his empowered Q autos is a neat mechanic the problem with it is having to constantly reposition it to make use of it which leads to being at risk of being out of position, you can be punished by the enemy top laner as well as getting caught by the enemy jungler trying to reposition your sword.

With his high Q cooldown early game you have to either use it to trade with an enemy laner when they go in for harass or use it to kill minions to farm effectively due to Shen's low base damage. This ability currently suffers from very low reward for what it's supposed to do. Shen in the top lane, suffers from many bad match ups usually resulting in him getting shoved under tower. Leaving Shen to scrap up what he can and wait until 6 to make a play elsewhere on the map. The problem with this, due to the current meta of tower plating, the enemy top laner will just take free plates resulting in Shen being even further behind. His W, is very powerful when going for an Ult play to save an ally, and comes in handy to mitigate damage in a team fight, again in Solo queue the lack of coordination can cause this ability to not be used to its greatest potential but has a ridiculously long cooldown as well.

His E has always been extremely satisfying to use, landing a taunt on multiple people can change the fight entirely, but also has a long cooldown. His ult has been standard, nerfed at times, but a lower cooldown teleport at 3 minutes and 20 seconds at level 6, and 2 minutes and 40 seconds at level 16. Pre-rework Shen was ultimately more satisfying to use. his in lane sustain with vorpal blades, the on hit heal, as well as his old passive ki strike which made shen a decent duelist as he built more health. The most important thing that made pre-rework Shen enjoying to play was his build diversity, ranging from Tank, bruiser, on-hit, as well as Ap off-tank. As opposed to current Shen's cookie cutter build Tiamat/Sunfire, and the non-AD ratios make building any sort of AD useless on Shen.

Shen is supposed to be Zed's counterpart; a kickass ninja fighting in the name of balance, his current abilities doesn't fit that thematic. It's to the point where playing Shen is a constant frustration, he's just not fun to play in his current state. Shen is considered a tank but with one of the lowest base tank stats in the game, even below some mages and marksman.

Shen is a champion that relies on two items because his wave clear is one of the worst, if not the worst clears in the game. Tiamat and sunfire. His Q damage to minion is so low that he has to pre hit minions under tower. The Shen community has been struggling playing this champion with a dropping winrate. We'd love to have a small sejuani/ezreal rework treatment done to his kit, or at the very least number changes like CD reductions or swapping out those useless AP ratios that shen never builds AP for, into AD or HP scaling.

I'm stuck playing Shen as support because he has better utility there. No worrying about farming or having 2x-3x longer ability cooldowns than most top laners.

Copypasta from the Sad Shen Bois

Attticus Finch4 votes

Shen gets picked in pro-play sometimes for his ult, therefore he must be bad forever. Sorry!

Spideraxe5 votes

HI Meddler, could you share the plans for Aatrox and Rakan this patch

Solari Fortune5 votes

Hey Meddler, thoughts on Aftershock, has there been any thought to revert it back to its original form of having it scale with armor and MR?

Infernape5 votes

Tbh I wouldn't mind if Aftershock's effectiveness was reduced on ranged champs. As far as I know the most egregious "abuse" case(s) are basically Lissandra/Ryze mid going by what I've seen in pro play.

Pïco de Galio3 votes

I wouldn't say Ryze is the next biggest user after Lissandra. That spot goes to Galio, but he is incredibly reliant on it.

Libido5 votes

[{quoted}](name=Solari Fortune,realm=NA,application-id=A7LBtoKc,discussion-id=Vpg853UW,comment-id=0022,timestamp=2019-02-22T17:31:28.812+0000)

Hey Meddler, thoughts on Aftershock, has there been any thought to revert it back to its original form of having it scale with armor and MR?

Original Aftershock was amazing. It was sooooo fresh. Too bad they changed it dramatically [sg-soraka]

Oxinior from LAN5 votes

Hey Meddler, nothing about Shen? There are some replys to your earlier posts (Feb. 21, for example) where more Shen mains are asking the same but in an extended way. Would love to hear something about you in regards to our Eye of Twilight.

Sincerely, Oxinior.

Goldnight Angel5 votes

Hey Meddler! Now that the crit item changes have settled, any plans for Quinn ? She's not doing too well since the changes and most of that seems to be due to how heavily she was balanced around the previous items and the earlier power spike of Stormrazor. Without it her weaker laning phase and now slower power leads to her often never really coming online before she's past the point of relevance in most games. Is there any chance some of her stat nerfs could be reversed now that the problem items that required them no longer exist?

Frosted Tips5 votes

Hey Meddler,

Even thought AP Bruisers are now a bit better off because they can actually run Conqueror I was still wondering if you would reconsider looking into AP Bruiser itemization.

Also, do you think that some champions may fit the same role too closely? Example: Leona and Alistar, they both seem to fit this kinda of pure melee CC machines, but Alistar has some sustain and more CC, just with a little more delay to it. Personally I think Leona should have a little work done on her kit.

Emo Twink4 votes

Did the Neeko fix get hotpatched yet? I'm looking forward to that because it's bugging me a lot ;a;

SuicidePlank4 votes

Bugfix GP AA please.

RiotMeddler6 votes

We're working on an attack move bug at the moment. From what we're seeing it's not GP specific, though he does seem to be affected more than most. Will hotfix once we've got a confirmed fix for it.

meteorbreaker4 votes

Hello Meddler!

Is there any thread will be future plans for Coop vs All? Bug fixes and gameplay edits bots? Updating bots? adding new bots? Adding more sophisticated bots?

Zaghyr4 votes

Any plans for Xayah?

Shahamut4 votes

Skarner ?

ModJango Mage3 votes

Last year you said that Banner of command could return in the future. Is that statement still true? If yes, can we expect it again anytime soon?

RiotMeddler6 votes

It's not impossible it comes back someday. We don't have any plans to do so at present though.

Sir Saltarin4 votes

Nice, that item is gone for good.

Caenen1 votes

That's not what he said. But the item is definitely not going to pop up again anytime soon.

Which, when thinking about the previous iteration, sounds good indeed.

RiotMeddler4 votes

First thing we'd need to bring it back is a strong argument on why it wouldn't lead back to the same issues. Interested in it because it allows a very different type of output, and therefore choice, from an item. Highly suspicious of it because of how strategic/macro level items like this have tended to dictate play significantly or be useless. That's ok or even desirable sometimes (e.g. vision play), but can remove a lot of depth and be really limiting in other cases (Banner or Zz'Rot when either let alone both have been strong).

Rúna Köves2 votes

Hi Meddler! Can you give your thoughts on the corrent state of my boi Shaco ? Since the Dark Harvest rework and some indirect nerfs like item 3077 price increase , summoner 14 nerf, the whole jungle experience nerf and the whole adc itemization changes he is just not feel right imo and has a hard time to find his place in the current jg meta as some sites say like op.gg atm. https://i.imgur.com/SifALen.png"

What is your oppinion about it? Thank you for your answer!

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