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[ ! ] On the minion pushing changes in 5.23

RiotRiot Axes·11/21/2015, 2:50:45 AM·1 votes·72,443 views

Hi folks,

The weekend’s rolling in so I won’t be able to stick around to answer questions (sorry!), but I wanted give some context and talk about the minion pushing changes we’ve got planned for 5.23.

First, high-level goals: when you’re ahead, you should take action to win, and conversely, when you’re losing, successfully defending should help you catch back up. That’s very different from how the game has historically been played, where a team with a lead can count on building an even larger lead just by farming and controlling the map, while a team which is falling behind typically doesn’t really catch back up by defending their towers. This is definitely a philosophical shift in how advantages are pressed or a game of League is won (particularly at the competitive level), but we think it’s a goal worth pursuing for this season, and are hoping these changes are a push in the right direction.

For the actual changes: the short version is that the minions of a team with a level advantage become slightly more powerful against enemy minions, dealing more damage and taking less damage to enemy lane minions. These advantages are increased in lanes where the advantaged team has killed more turrets than the disadvantaged team.

By giving an advantage to the winning team’s minions, we change who has to take action to win – if you’re behind, more of the gold on the map comes to you, so you’ll tend to catch up rather than fall slowly further behind. If you’re ahead, however, you get more opportunities to siege towers. Out of control snowball games will potentially end faster through successful sieges, but teams that are behind should have a more realistic chance of coming back through successful defensive play.

We’re starting with this tuned pretty light - these gains are tuned primarily by level advantage (the team with the higher average level gains the minion buff), with an additional increase based on the number of turrets downed in the lane. Minion damage is quite low, so while talking about percentages might seem high, the numerical impact is fairly low. The formula’s currently tuned at (5% + (5% x number of turrets downed)) x average level advantage). That’s about a 15% damage bonus for minions against minions if your team is, on average, 1 full level above the opposition.

Damage reduction is a little more straightforward: 1 + (number of turrets downed x average level advantage). So, in total, if you’re 1 level ahead and 2 turrets up in a given lane, your minions deal 15% more damage to enemy minions and take 3 less damage from enemy minions.

In close games, we’ve seen the average level advantage go between 0.2 - 0.4 average levels. Minions which normally hit for about 30 will have their damage increased by less than 1 – the effect is rarely noticeable. If that still sounds like a lot, consider that we have powerful comeback mechanics in place for levels – if your team is 1 level behind on average, the game probably feels significantly snowballed; if you’re 2 levels behind, you’re probably being crushed. So far, we have seen very few games get to 3 levels behind because, by that point, you’re either getting mega-stomped (think 18 minute game end) or catch-up mechanics will quickly rubberband you with large amounts of bonus XP.

I did want to address a few concerns we’ve heard –

We agree that you should be able to know what’s going on with your minions and we’re actively working on ensuring that you can tell the state of your minions in game. It’s going to be pretty subtle, but it won’t be totally hidden. Not sure exactly when that will ship - as soon as we can have it finished.

We’ve heard the concerns that this devalues lane manipulation skills such as freezing and slow pushing. Real talk, it probably does reduce the value of those skills – but it does not eliminate them, and it does make other skills (like coordinated rotations) more valuable at the same time. In particular, in close games it’ll work about the same. Freezing a lane with these changes when you’re behind is easier; when you’re significantly ahead, it’s much harder. Slow pushing shouldn’t be that different except in extreme cases – it tends to create a situation where you have a 2-to-1 advantage in number of minions or more, which easily outweighs the amount of power from the new mechanics.

Finally, there’s a lot of concern about how stompy and snowbally the game is, and whether this will make that worse. We agree that there’s a problem with early game snowballing, and 5.23 has a number of changes (notably tower health increases and less experience gained for killing an enemy) that should help that problem a lot. If these changes make that experience worse, we will follow up, whether by pulling back on these changes or by working on other mechanics.

We’re definitely keeping an eye on all of this and we didn’t make these changes lightly, so I hope you’ll try them out and let us know how things go.

80 Comments

Stonington11/21/2015, 7:26:27 AM21 votes

Your theory and intent behind the minion changes is sound and I've seen people argue for it before. Back in season 3 and prior, once you took a single inhibitor minions in all lanes would get stronger and every lane would automatically push. I remember quite clearly, taking one inhib would be a huge event that would tip the scales in favour of your team winning dramatically. Not to sound melodramatic, but it would be a watershed moment in every game you'd play. The winning team would be able to ward the entire map freely, take all the jungle camps, and easily take baron dragon at their discretion. Players back then would sometimes make the same argument you are. 'All the lanes are pushing and the losing team will have the opportunity to catch up and get more gold than the winning team.' That would never happen though. Once all the minions put pressure on the map it was basically an auto win scenario. So in season 4 they removed this feature in efforts to prevent snowballing.

I don't see any reason why winning teams won't group as 5 in a single lane and just wait for their side lane minions to auto push the outer towers to force the losing team into a lose-lose scenario. They either defend the side lanes and pray the 5 man advantage doesn't dive them, they allow their side lane turrets to fall, or they forced to take an engage onto the winning team. This is how you would win every game in season 3 with one inhib down.

With that said, why do you think the changes you're proposing will be any different from season 3?

Joy of Feeding11/21/2015, 3:24:15 AM12 votes

So how will we contest objectives when we're behind when we can't properly push the lanes back out?

wop11/21/2015, 6:44:33 AM12 votes

what if you have an afk?

Deep Terror Nami11/21/2015, 2:58:35 AM10 votes

I look forward to how it all balances out by the time the 2016 Season starts. While some people hate preseason live server being treated like a massive PBE, I welcome it, as it greatly accelerates the evolution of the game.

That minion block though...

RiotRiot Koalifier11/21/2015, 2:59:59 AM10 votes

Good to see you're burying the hatchet on this one. But to chop a little chunk out this thread, can I axe you a question?

Where did your name come from?

Loye11/21/2015, 3:22:19 AM9 votes

so riots answer is don't worry riot knows best

aperson111/21/2015, 6:05:41 AM7 votes

I'm worried that this will make objectives really easy for the winning team as they can be guaranteed that their other waves will push out while they're contesting Baron/Dragon/Turrets as they can just stall out of a fight until their minions push into the enemy's lanes, then either wait for the 4v5 or take a low-risk fight.

This seems against forcing the winning team to be aggressive so I want to know if this is something you guys considered and does it seem like it's going to be a problem or not?

LVL 5 PORO11/21/2015, 5:34:43 AM6 votes

I finally have a legitimate reason to be toxic. If anyone on my team feeds and affects my lane, all Hell will break loose. This I promise.

Maikal11/21/2015, 4:21:22 AM6 votes

I think that these minion changes can make split pushing from behind a weaker tactic, while making split pushing while ahead even stronger. Do you agree/Is this concerning to you?

Split pushing from behind now:

  • Lets say I'm playing master Yi, my team is behind as a whole but maybe I'm strong enough to 1 v 1 anyone and the enemy team needs to send 2+ people for me. Now the enemy team is sieging 3 v 4 and we can look to come back through that advantage. Much better than defending with my team mates in which case we would just get run over 5 v 5 since the enemy team is ahead.

What I believe the state of split pushing will be post minion changes:

  • With these changes, I believe that it will make pushing/pressuring the map when your team is behind as a whole more difficult and may remove that strategy of making a come back in favor of choosing champions that can wave clear well in case your team falls behind in average levels.

  • I could see split pushing being a lot stronger for the winning team with these minion changes too, which I think is problematic considering how strong of a tactic split pushing already is when your team is ahead and has 4 v 5 potential.

Insane Pyromanic11/21/2015, 4:43:00 PM6 votes

Wave manipulation happening automatically is so bad. It's a major skill that's been in the game for years and year being removed. Honestly, this is also going to make pro games so dull because it will turn into win lane win game, and a team's late game decision making is going to be so easy. I don't agree with anything that dumbs the game down to this degree.

Ajakson11/21/2015, 9:16:34 AM5 votes

I'm very intrigued by these changes.

But,

and this is a big but, one of Riot's most outspoken goals has been to eliminate invisible and unseen strengths from the game. Global passives and abilities have been removed or heavily tuned. And with these changes, there will be a lot of elements in the game that are hard to anticipate and predict.

So, I guess my question is: How do these changes help players understand what is happening in the game? How do they hinder players perception?

Silverclaw11/21/2015, 3:22:11 AM4 votes

The one thing that goes totally left out here is what I want to know. What about all the minion tactics players have come to learn over the years? How will that change, and will it even be feasible? Saying to your team "Don't push that tower, I want to keep my freeze" in soloq will rarely work, if ever. Splitpushing when your team is behind, one of many ways to come back into a game, looks to be MUCH harder in 5.23.

I know the main argument that was tossed around earlier was "the PBE didn't complain about it at all" but that's because we had no idea it was even happening, so I don't find this argument to be particularly valid. It's hard (if nigh impossible) to be able to give feedback to something as vague as minion damage unless you're really studying.

Also, it doesn't seem like the changes are not fully ready yet. If something of this magnitude goes ut WITHOUT a proper way to tell which team has the minions advantage at a glance and by how much, how do you expect anyone to be able to make proper use of it? Why are we making it hard to see?

I'm not worried terribly about close matches. If the true level difference is about .2 to .4, then that's not bad (although that leaves out turret differential which is VERY IMPORTANT). I'm worried about the stomps just feeling stompier. And the stomps already feel plenty stompy.

Huang Shaotian11/21/2015, 11:37:03 AM3 votes

Not to be mean or anything but the biggest question I see often is "how will this affect games with dcers or 4v5's becoming even more impossible to win". Yet in every post about these changes that question is ignored but the same questions that have been answered 10,000 times before keep getting answered.

Ale non è male11/21/2015, 10:57:23 AM3 votes

I can see where your philosophy is coming from and what is the goal toward you are aiming doing the changes, but you clarly overdid, because you implemented two super strong mechanics (minions and weaker turrets) for the teams that are ahead, so that if your team ever commit a mistake that allow the enemy team to push for 2 minutes you can't basically come back because there is a snowballing effect if you lose a pair of towers quickly - and the tower health changes won't help much as end game resistences are probably more valuable than health for defending towers -

There has to be a balance point where if you have been slightly ahead for 15 minutes getting slowly advantages in the various lanes, you can't literaly lose the game at min 20 because a mate has left lane open for 2 minutes to roam around and the enemy team has pushed 2 tower down creating a big mismatch in their favour that goes snowballing on and on from that moment

Scampy11/21/2015, 6:05:14 AM3 votes

So what happens if, let's say, a top laner is losing when the rest of his team is winning? The minions will push away from him naturally, allowing the already-winning opposing laner to gain an even larger lead. Similar stuff can happen in mid and bot, where a losing lane becomes even more difficult to survive because your team happens to have a higher level advantage.

I feel like this is a band-aid fix, similar to when Riot made top and mid towers take less damage early to prevent pros from lane swapping. It works in theory, but it's a really lazy way to fix a problem.

BADxW0LF11/21/2015, 4:49:26 AM3 votes

One thing you didn't address is how much gold difference you are adding to those who are behind. With the aggressiveness that this will cause for the team that is ahead, my concern is that this will just create more lane bullying as opposed to people actually thinking "hey, I can rotate to a different lane because my minions are stronger and will keep this lane pushed for now". Instead, I see this will just put the enemy laner in the position to continue to push minions under turret denying huge amounts of farm. I realize this is not going to be a problem for higher elos who know how to farm well under turret, but from what I've seen in bronze and silver, this will be a nightmare of a change that will just end games much more quickly. Stop weeding out the lower elos :P

From all the changes that have been made, it seems like this is Riot's goal for next season: making games shorter. Sure, playing more games in a certain time frame can be fun, but a lot of people get way more enjoyment out of the games that are intense and go on for more than 40 minutes. That is where the thrill is at. Not seeing how quickly I can get to play another game.

Dantilq11/21/2015, 9:48:48 AM3 votes

What about clarity of this?

It feels like this is a hidden stat that is very hard to notice. Can't this be accomplished in some other more clear way?

Gareth Tankin11/21/2015, 7:25:00 PM2 votes

What about, "killing a turret spawns an extra minion in the lane".

That'd be a really interesting concept.

It keeps the minion dynamic allot more obvious (same health/dmg) But split pushers have to worry about a carry farming in the lane for the extra gold/xp. Maybe have something like 10% less gold/xp on each minion in lane per extra minion so it isn't just rediculous.

That's interesting to think about, If you knock down a turret in the first few minutes, the enemy can plunk a carry in the lane and get a lil extra farm, but then the carry is also in a long lane and probably away from any action, he can be dived/ganked, exc.

xl Kirito lx11/21/2015, 3:47:07 AM2 votes

How much will this affect lane control in games? Slow pushes / Banner of Command pushes

r1tch11/21/2015, 6:33:21 AM2 votes

The formula’s currently tuned at (5% + (5% x number of turrets downed)) x average level advantage)

Let's say a side lane get ganked and dived. He loses 1 bigwave and his T1 tower cause turrets are pretty weak now.

Both ennemy jungler and toplaner will be 1 level ahead from that. That means ennemy creeps will hit 20% harder than the ally creeps on the other side lane only from 1 action on the opposite side of the map? And if the jungler stay there and kill the lane again, what happens A LOT at high elo, the game is basically over cause both mid and bot will be harpushed what means the ennemy team will get the objective control, also they will take the other T1 faster from the passive minion push, what will make the minion buff even harder, etc..

How can you even think that could be a good thing... that's basically the worst idea RIOT ever had in the history of the game. I mean you will obviously step back from this terrible idea, but the fact that you even though about it... If you have any respect for the game you should step down from the game design decisions.

Selegun11/21/2015, 3:43:20 AM2 votes

How dynamic will the minion damage boost be? Will minions suddenly lose damage if your team gets aced or will minions spawning after the swing in levels be the only ones affected?

Bashi11/21/2015, 9:08:42 AM2 votes

As long as I don't die or miss kills or CS because of minion blocking (happens literally every game and it's the most frustrating thing) and the minions don't follow me half through river (giving the enemy team undeserved vision). I think you should also improve the AI. Please set a limit on the lanes that minions cannot pass through or something.

Romschka11/21/2015, 12:47:46 PM2 votes

Comebacks dont work => "open mid im a kid"