Karma Gameplay Change Preview

RiotRiot NeuroCat·10/24/2018, 4:32:30 PM·1 votes·264,232 views

10/26/18 Update: Check out this update post to address some of the more common concerns


Hi all,

Today, I have some changes to Karma I want to preview to you. As a note, these changes are work-in-progress - we’re still creating the visuals and tuning the numbers, so they won’t be hitting the PBE with pre-season update. When these changes land on PBE eventually, we’d love to have you test them out and give us your feedback at that point.

First, let’s talk about some of Karma’s issues, and our goals with these changes:

  1. When compared to other champions, modern Karma doesn’t have many defining elements that set her apart, from both a thematic and gameplay perspective. Since she doesn’t really have anything uniquely hers, our first goal is to give Karma a unique mechanic that reinforces a core part of her identity.

  2. Karma is a difficult champion to keep in a healthily balanced state. When she is tuned appropriately for the average player, she can become dominant at the pro level. Our second goal is to file down some of the sharper edges on Karma’s existing mechanics to let us buff her elsewhere, making her relatively more powerful for the average Karma player.

  3. Karma players can feel like their Mantra choices don’t offer the flexibility promised by the champion, with certain Mantras becoming much more useful for different Karma builds or at different points in the game. Our third goal is to make Karma’s mantra choice feel more meaningful in most situations.

  Let’s talk changes, starting with the biggest - we’re giving Karma a unique mechanic in line with her identity. Karma is a spiritual leader of the Ionian people, and like all great leaders, Karma has the ability to see the potential in those she works with and help bring out their fullest ability. Realizing this mechanically, we’ve added a new ally-cast mode for Karma’s W. When she targets an ally with W, she reduces the cooldowns on their basic abilities by a flat amount. The mantra, Harmony, increases the amount of CDR and grants the ally mana. We’re pairing this with a Karma-only visual effect - as a passive, Karma will see an indicator representing how far an ally’s spells are on cooldown. In conjunction with W, she’ll have a better idea which allies are good targets for her W at a glance. We hope this mechanic will inspire Karma players to craft unique lane combinations and team compositions.

With these changes, we also want to level the current playing field between pro players and average Karma players in two main ways:

  1. Much of Karma’s power is rooted in her Mantra usage - optimizing her passive’s Mantra CDR is something pros are quite good at, allowing them to gain significantly more power than the average Karma player. We’re changing her live passive to operate on a charge model similar to Spellthief’s Edge, triggering on any damage on champs or monsters. This will allow Karma players to not have to spend their entire time basic attacking to gain max passive value, freeing up time to reposition, ward, etc.

  2. We’re generally reducing the benefit of movespeed in the kit, most notably by changing her Mantra-E, Defiance, to reduce the movespeed given to allies near your primary target (the same as the reduction to shields). Movement speed, especially Defiance’s shared AoE movespeed, is much more powerful in highly coordinated play than standard ranked play, so stripping power out here will free up a lot of power and allow us to buff her elsewhere.

The last set of changes are a set of tweaks aimed at each of her Mantra spells, to give more flexibility of use in a variety of situations.

  • For Soulflare (Mantra-Q), we’re loading more of the damage into the initial hit of the projectile, and less into the detonation damage - using Soulflare to poke should remain powerful even later into the game.

  • For Renewal (Mantra-W), we’re changing the scaling to scale both with Missing HP and directly with AP - even if you’re building AP instead of tanky, your healing should be substantial.

  • For Defiance (Mantra-E), the shared shield (and movespeed) percentage will be much higher than live, but will be split evenly across all nearby allies - now using Defiance will still be quite effective in a 2v2 or 3v3 scenario.

  So with this gameplay update, here’s what Karma will look like overall:

Passive - Gathering Fire Kindled Spirit - When Karma deals damage to an enemy champ or large monster, Mantra’s cooldown is reduced by X seconds (to a cap of Y times over Z seconds).

Souls Alight - Karma can see her allies’ total basic ability cooldowns.  

Q - Inner Flame Functionally, the same as live  

W - Spirit Bond Ally Cast: Karma reduces target ally’s basic ability cooldowns by up to X seconds. Mantra - Harmony: The cooldown reduction amount is increased by Y seconds. Karma restores Z% of the ally’s max mana.

Enemy Cast: Karma deals X damage to target enemy. If they don’t break the tether, they are dealt X damage and rooted for T seconds. Mantra - Renewal: Roots for longer. When this deals damage, Karma heals for Y% missing HP + Z% AP.  

E - Inspire Grants an ally movespeed and a shield. Mantra - Defiance: Grants the target bonus shields. Other nearby allies split X% of the shield and movespeed between them.  

R - Mantra Functionally, the same as live

  As for a specific numerical changelist, we’re still working out tunings for the changes, but along with these changes, you should expect a healthy amount of buffs to Karma’s base stats and ability numbers to bring her into a balanced state.

Thanks for listening! I’ll post another update when we’re heading to PBE. -NeuroCat

503 Comments

Yordle Xayah10/24/2018, 4:55:38 PM67 votes

When she is tuned appropriately for the average player, she can become dominant at the pro level

Isn't that like a common theme though?... Aatrox Akali Alistar AurelionSol Azir Bard Gangplank Graves Irelia Ivern Kaisa Kalista Kassadin Kindred KogMaw Leblanc LeeSin Lucian Maokai Mordekaiser Ryze Ryze Ryze Ryze Ryze Ryze Sejuani Sejuani Sejuani Sejuani Sejuani Sejuani Sejuani Swain Tristana Twitch Urgot Varus Vayne Vladimir Xayah Yasuo Zoe

I think there's a much deeper problem here that extends far beyond Karma.

SnugglePuggle9410/24/2018, 5:44:34 PM41 votes

Hey NeuroCat,

These changes are interesting, but I am quite concerned that you guys are only pushing changes on her for her support role. Mind you, before her failed "mini rework" and then being pushed into the support role, she was a mid lane mage first and foremost.

Why are there not any changes besides the Mantra Q damage higher on initial spell the only ones for her mid lane play? Just like Zyra and Morg, you guys keep pissing off the mains that had been playing them for their mid lane play, where they started out in the beginning before being pushed bot.

BLIGHTBRINGER10/24/2018, 4:35:57 PM33 votes

I feel that the new W alone could make Mages more viable in the bot-lane again. Seems quite interesting so far.

SilverSquid10/24/2018, 6:34:50 PM30 votes

Oh boy. Well, I promised you honest and kind criticism, so here we go.

Design Goals I think you nailed those. I would have had some additional ones, like unifying the fanbase and stuff, but hey, I am just a nostalgic internet smartass here.

PASSIVE

Kindled Spirit - That sounds interesting. It kind of shoots jungle Karma in the knee before she happened, but I guess it's a healthy form of capping the insanity that is the endless RQ barrage in late teamfights (or endless RW healing). Good thinking! Reserving actual critique for after playtesting tho - numbers can mean a lot here. (But the way it looks now, spellweaving AAs is kinda dead right?)

Souls Alight - No idea how that is feasible without cluttering UI, but... I guess you have to make it work for W?

Q and RQ

Frontloading the damage to the initial explosion makes the second part of RQ even more pointless than before. Do you want to keep unreliably one-shotting squishies being a thing? I think it's the most unhealthy part of her kit, but I guess people like lobbing hadoukens >_<... Not a fan here!

W

Yay for ally function. Confused about the rest. To me this feels like inviting people to find gamebreaking combinations with her (sounds fun!), which then requires Riot to balance everything around the ideal case, making it ass in most other lane-combos (no fun)... Isn't this like the opposite of what you tried to do? You know, "not making her too strong in coordinated pro play" and stuff?

EDIT: I fear people flaming Karma for pairing with "sub-par" champions already. Like "WHY DeFuQ do you pick Karma, when I am ASHE? DO I LOOK LIKKE I NEED CDR YA NUWB???"

RW

Please explain to the Soraka mains out there why granting mana to others is a good idea for a champion in LoL. And to me. Because I am confused.

I like how the heal ratios are a nod to old Karma, but - as you know - I have expressed continously how opposed I am to missing% heals on mage champions. I reckon this is a compromise in favour of tank-Karma players, but I have always felt like tank Karma players would prefer to play her as a bruiser anyways. Like: reasonable survival chances while doing useful stuff. Also this heal would've been perfect for making her heal OTHERS with. Just judging by the values here.

What happend to bonus damage and bonus root tho?

E and RE

Yeah, not gonna lie. Extremely disappointed in the "no-shieldbomb" thing. I mean, you didn't explicitly comment on this, but not seeing any trace is not a good sign for me. People love and miss the shieldbomb. Splitting the Shield/MS sounds incredibly interesting, even if it feels like a nerf for teamfights. Could be a buff in duo lanes. But without shieldbomb, without 5-man-saving, without 5 man speeding, I reckon all Karma players have chance to hate this spell. As they say "That's a bold move, Cotton!"

OVERALL

Positively Surprised about those Gathering Fire and Renewal ideas. Thrilled to test them. Disappointed in the lack of shieldbomb. I for ONCE would have loved to see a Rioter adress why it was justifyable to remove a signature spell from a champion (that they had for 5 years ) without giving any reason and then have it return on another champion. Like, wtf. I also don't know if you achieved your goal of making mantra more of a decision. Sure, RW is now more applicable in fragile builds and more useful for supports, but RQ seems to be even MORE tempting for glass cannon builds to be the only mantra to ever use, and RE still is the only spell profiting from heal/shield increase... dunno if it's worth it anymore tho. Going straight AP seems nearly better now, depending on how RW behaves.

But that's too value-y already, let's see that stuff on PBE first.

Greetings, your friendly neighbourhood Squid

Reign of Squid10/24/2018, 5:13:47 PM26 votes

these changes are bland af they take so much time for that refund mana+cd smell like a bad idea 6 month later Karma will be nerf to the hell and back in the same state

Winterkill10/24/2018, 6:13:40 PM25 votes

Who is Karma and what is her role?

That's the million dollar question that still has yet to be answered by Riot Game Developers. This rework could have been the perfect opportunity to solidify a gameplay identity for a champion that has 3 different gameplay identities in her kit. Can you answer this, Riot NeuroCat or can Meddler? If Karma's kit doesn't explain her gameplay identity to us, don't you think that is a problem? Yet again, her gameplay identity still has yet to be touched and solidified. Is Karma a artillery mage, tank, support or a jack of all trades champion?

=========================

Passive - The changes to the passive are interesting, but what is the point in having this passive when her only damage move is blocked by minions? At least with auto attacks she can proc the passive. Now the cooldown reduction on Manta abilities completely relies on landing abilities on enemies. You don't think it is a problem that her only damage move is blocked by minions?

Q and Mantra Q - Still a massive let down in the fact that it is her only damage move and still blocked by minions. Now she is going to be doing more damage late game and the ability is still going to be maxed first. You are taking power away from the explosion in Mantra Q so what is the point in having the explosion in Mantra Q then? It's hard to make that mechanic stick. Let's also add in the fact that the ability itself fits a artillery mage. Is Karma a artillery mage?

(Why didn't you look into the actual possibility of allowing the Mantra Q not be blocked by minions, lessening the range and making the ability ground targeted, and giving the explosion of Mantra Q a flat heal? It would have fit the new duality theme you are trying to do with Karma.)

W and Mantra W - You gave the Karma community what we asked for, which was an ally function with W and Mantra W. It looks pretty cool in theory but what happens late game when someone has full cooldown reduction, where mana is not that much of an issues anymore, and how well does this mechanic benefit Karma as a champion? I feel like I just don't really understand the actual mechanic of the ability. Does Karma's W and Mantra W on allies look past cooldown reduction as a whole and allow allies to use their basic abilities more often or is she just offering more mana and cooldown reduction to allies? It would be kind of useless on a champion that already has max cooldown reduction.

E and Mantra E - I am talking about Mantra E. You know Karma players wanted shield bomb back. You know Karma players wanted another damage move, an iconic one that was on Karma first, and it wasn't given to her. I just don't see the point in trying to advocate for shield bomb anymore when Riot Game employees are just not interested in having it on her anymore. It was on Karma first and deserves to be put back on her. Unfortunately Karma is only really destined to have a Iron Locket of Solari active and Sivr Ult Mantra E. That's what it is going to be and it will not change.

(You could have made so many better decisions with Mantra E. It was one of the most highly requested abilities to actually return on her. You could have taken away the movement speed buff for damage on Mantra E. The animations for Mantra E already exist on it. You could have made Mantra E only proc shield bomb when the Karma player casts it on herself.)

R - Nothing to comment about.

=========================

Overall, I am let down. I like the new mechanic with W and Mantra W. Being able to see the cooldowns on allies does fit Karma. Players wanted an ally function with Mantra W and W. Nothing else in the kit was actually touched though. All that was touched on the rest of the kit was number changes. This is the same old kit that doesn't offer an actual gameplay identity, hardly any damage options that are still blocked by minions, a passive that now completely relies on landing abilities on allies to lower Mantra cooldown, her abilities and Mantra abilities still feel incredibly binary and it feels like an incredibly missed opportunity to give her more of a gameplay identity through abilities, her abilities and Mantra abilities still fit three different playstyles and gameplay identities, and Mantra E already exists in the game as an item active with a Sivr ULT.

What did you do to solve the problems that the relaunch didn't solve and didn't make her better? Karma still has no gameplay identity, her art is still incomplete, her thematic is all over the place, and her kit is all over the place. All this looks like to me is you saying, "Hey, we are aware of Karma's problems. We decided to just give you a new use for W and Mantra W and not actually touch the kit in itself."

RiotRiot NeuroCat10/26/2018, 9:20:03 PM23 votes

Hi all,

I'm glad there are a lot of people really excited about the changes, but I think that I've heard two main negative sentiments crop up. I'll try to address them as best I can.     ##1 - Karma's Ally W is broken with certain champs or will be super strong in coordinated play, forcing us to nerf her/balance her around her new W

First, the new Ally-W is a strong effect. We wanted to give Karma a tool which has really great strengths when used effectively - experienced Karma players should be able to use this to the best of its abilities. However, we did very intentionally take a number of steps to try to mitigate these risk factors.

  1. We gave Karma her Souls Alight passive to help Karma understand when its valuable for her to use W without having to be on voice comms. Additionally, the flat Cooldown Reduction is applied fairly flexibly, opening up the number of picks that its useful with. We've noticed it feels great with Tanks, Mages, other Supports, ADCs with long cooldowns or mana hungry ADCs, so we're hoping that there are a lot of different viable targets and team compositions that feel nice with Karma.

  2. The cooldown reduction applied has a stipulation to prevent outright abuse cases of back-to-back spellcasts (chain hard CC). Karma's W attempts to apply CDR every quarter second, but it will not reduce an ability's remaining cooldown to a point of coming off cooldown within 3s of the last time it was cast. This ensures a "3s buffer" between spellcasts affected by Karma's W. We believe this mitigates most of the straight up abuse cases associated with Karma's W.

We understand that there's still some risk here, and will be actively monitoring anything that gets too out of control.     ##2 - These changes feel like they are shoving Karma strictly into the support role/as a solo-lane Karma player, I feel underserved by these changes

This is fair feedback. The biggest, coolest change is definitely the Ally-cast W, which primarily serves to help your allies. I'd argue that Allycast-W has a lot of applications for solo lane Karma, whether that's jungle ganks or teamfights. However, I think something I failed to deliver was the scope of buffs and tuning changes we're planning with these changes (since I did not include numbers). So I'll preview the tuning changes below. Please keep in mind that these are not final numbers - we may change these drastically depending on initial balance reads from the PBE:

  • Base Stats
  • Move Speed: 335 >>> 330
  • HP Regen: 5.5 (+0.55/lvl) >>> 7 (+0.6/lvl)
  • Armor: 26 >>> 30
  • Passive - Gathering Fire
  • Kindled Spirit
    • Cooldown reduced on Mantra from damage dealt: 2/3/4 (levels 1/7/13) >>> 3/4/5/6 (ult ranks)
      • No longer halved on auto-attacks
      • Now works against large monsters
    • Now operates on a charge system
      • Karma gains 1 charge per 7 seconds, to a cap of 3 charges
  • [NEW] Souls Alight
    • Karma can see an indicator for her ally's total basic spell cooldowns
  • Q - Inner Flame
  • Mantra - Soulflare
    • Bonus Damage: 25/75/125/175 (+30% AP) >>> 35/105/175/245 (+45% AP)
    • Detonation Damage: 35/140/245/350 (+60% AP) >>> 25/110/195/280 (+45% AP)
  • W - Spirit Bond
  • Cooldown: 12 >>> 16
  • Mana: 50-70 >>> 70
  • Damage per tick: 30/55/80/105/130 (+45% AP) >>> 50/75/100/125/150 (+60% AP)
  • Mantra - Renewal
    • Healing (per tick): 20% (+0.01% AP) of missing health >>> 15% of missing health + 25% AP
  • [NEW] Ally Cast:
    • Reduces an ally's basic ability cooldowns by up to 10s total over the bond duration (2s).
    • Mantra - Harmony
      • Plus 20/30/40/50s cooldown reduction. Returns 20% of Max Mana to the ally.
  • E - Inspire
  • Shield: 70/95/120/145/170 (+50% AP) >>> 75/100/125/150/175 (+55% AP)
  • Move Speed Bonus: 40/45/50/55/60% >>> 35/40/45/50/55%
  • Mantra - Defiance
    • Shared Shield Percent: 30% >>> 75%, split across all shared targets
    • Shared Movespeed Percent: 100% >>> 75%, split across all shared targets

We believe that solo lane Karma is properly served by the base stat changes, adjustments to AP ratios, and relative strengths of the Enemy-W cast as a alternative option, but we will definitely see how these land and make sure that solo lane Karma players feel like they can play their champion effectively. However, I will reaffirm that proper choice of which cast of W to use in a given situation is an important skill for Karma in any lane - good Karma players will exercise the proper decisionmaking, both through the modal W cast and Mantra choice, her signature spell.

Ajayhatake10/24/2018, 5:58:56 PM22 votes

I feel like i'm the only person that wishes you guys just turned her into more of a mage. I really prefer how fun Karma mid is and also the power a mage brings. For me Karma's lore (so far) defines her as a leader and as someone with a lot of power. Hopefully this is still in beta and you guys can somewhat manage to turn her into more of a mage than a support lol. + I was hoping Karma would've gotten a full rework since her last rework was some what like 7 years ago? but this sounds like a Ezreal kind of rework :c a little disappointed [poppy-wink]

Frosted Tips10/24/2018, 7:15:30 PM20 votes

This is actually a downgrade from current Karma. She feels even less like her traditional self, excluding reliance on team coordination going up.

  1. The ally W will now force her to be balanced for support. (Obviously the most common and blatant complaint)
  2. The ally W will force her to be balanced around 3-5 champions if we are lucky. The CDR for an ally and mana for an ally is just too niche to be healthy as a common pick.
  3. Mantra Shield damage completely removed. Keep the damage or give us the nuke back, but don't just make the shield more boring. I would rather you take the MS away and keep damage.
  4. This is not what any wants.
  5. (IMPORTANT) STILL NOT BRINGING THE FANS BACK.
IxtaliKing10/24/2018, 7:31:58 PM19 votes

As much as I really wanted to be positive about these changes, I just can't. I'm beyond disappointed by what I'm seeing here.

The RQ changes:

I strongly oppose the front loading of RQs damage to the initial impact. This is possibly one of the worst things that could be done to this spell. What RQ needed was more control, what it needed is to be opened up for utility uses. Not more damage to be front loaded with less detonation damage, that's just flat out reducing counter play for her opponents. Please don't do this.

The new W:

This ally function seems like it's trying too hard to be unique, without sufficient scope. It feels like this CD/Mana buff has been put here simply because no other champ in the game has it... please tell me that isn't the case? I don't see how it's anymore thematic than a 'Focused Resolve' granting resistances (and healing with R), if anything 'Spirit Bond' granting CDR (and Mana with R) is just as vague. Of course, I'm open to testing it, but I can feel already that this rework has lost me.

Also, the enemy cast still grants bonus root... why? It's such a vacuous waste of her power budget, and was a major low point of Rickless' 5.10 rework. Why are we keeping it?

The new RE:

Why couldn't it just be reverted to it's pre 5.10 values? Nobody ever complained about it back then, it was fine. This new version just sounds like a weaker version of whats on live.

Overall:

These changes look like they largely favor the support role, whilst doing nothing to bridge the old and new player bases. As a solo-lane Karma player I am absolutely mortified by these changes, and there's no amount of compensation damage that can be crammed into Q, RQ or W that will make this okay.

Please reconsider these changes.

RiotRiot Auberaun10/24/2018, 5:31:40 PM16 votes

Karma Karma Karma Karma Karma Karma Karma Karma Karma Karma Karma Karma Karma Karma Karma

Spideraxe10/24/2018, 4:41:18 PM16 votes

Hey Naomi can I hear your thoughts on bringing back Karma's shield bomb

Enderized10/24/2018, 5:33:57 PM15 votes

Completely nothing related to Karma...

But as I thought about:

Souls Alight - Karma can see her allies’ total basic ability cooldowns.

If it is possible to see other Teammates Cooldown! Could it be possible as well to add such a feature to Zilean, showing how much EXP a Champ needs to level up? It gets me sorta frustrating when I have 300 EXP stored but only giving my Jgler 17EXP because I'll never know how much they need when I'm able to Level them up ... x)

Ahris10/24/2018, 6:10:31 PM15 votes

So you guys are making her more of a support than a midlaner?

DayLight V10/24/2018, 9:39:53 PM15 votes

As a Karma main and player since S2. I have played her both support and mid. (Mostly Support)

I never really got to play old karma that much but reading about her old kit seems like it was so cool, unique and diverse.

Passive

**OLD - ** Her old passive was cool, stronger (AP) the less health she has, I like those kinda passives and it fits her name (I more damage I take the more I can dish out) but I feel it doesn't fit her poke mage/enchantress side (since squishy targets are mostly at full hp or 0).

CURRENT - I do love how her current passive rewards her to be an aggressive lane bully which promotes good (Karma & general league player) behavior.

NEW - I don't know if capping is the way to go. Pros may be good at abusing it but that's not because it's strong in team play it's because they are good players. This passive requires 0 team play. I understand capping is to try and close the gap of aggression from the average player to the pro but that means it no longer promotes as aggressive as possible without over aggression (or you get punished/die) play style which is core to a good lol player. Why must we diverge from kits that reward players that are good? I suppose all said I understand this change (to bridge the gap) and I'm don't have problem with a cap.

With the new kit you have purposed, I would Prefer to see a passive nerfed stat wise but with more utility like procing on ally cast spells. This way using W on allies and R+E wont feel as bad since it takes away from R+Q passive procs. (Yes if you had it proc per ally hit in R+E that would best in pro play so maybe proc 1/2 for every ally that hit with secondary shield) This would promote good R+E use.

As later stated if Q heal or E damage came back then views on this passive could be looked at differently.

Q

OLD - Her Q used to DAMAGE & HEAL. BRING THIS BACK PLS. THIS IS SUCH A COOL MECHANIC. Do I Q an ally? Do I Q enemy? Do I try and Q both? This would be unique and open up karma to supporting champions like bruisers who like to be in the face of their enemies. Even solo lane karma would love this as she could W and then Q and hit herself for a heal.

Then you would have to choose between shielding ally from burst (R+E) or healing ally max (R+Q) (assuming secondary proc also heals)

CURRENT - It's nice. In solo lane do I poke or farm with it? In duo lane sorta forced into using R early for R+Q and then R+E becomes so much better mid to late.

NEW - I feel like front loading damage is not a good option she is not meant to be an assassin that can nuke targets in 1 hit. As a midlaner and with the flat pen items she can do that pretty well already, this will make that worse.

Bring Q heal back please.

W

OLD - ONCE AGAIN THIS LOOKS SO COOL. Why not go back to the anchor buffs/debuffs + buffs/debuffs for those hitting the tether. That would make it far more interesting as a spell.

Then you would have to choose between using it on an ally for easy stable tether or using on enemy for risky tether (more likely to break) but with root.

CURRENT - It's her only form of hard CC (q is a slow). It does its job but lacks being interesting especially from what is was.

NEW - Being able to cast to an ally is awesome but in this version giving mana and CD seems broken. Likely to be nerfed until its not viable due to outlier cases. Adding power here also hurts solo karma players. I guess with the purposed kit she wont have a heal which she can abuse like Sorakka used to, to keep champs like Caitlyn in lane forever however this still sounds like a hard spell to balance. The trade off seems not worth it.

I'd much prefer going back a hybrid of the old and new karma W then this new purposed effect. I don't wanna give allies Mana and CDs that's not a karma thing that's a Soraka + Zilean thing. I wanna tether an ally or enemy either speeding the ally up (maybe AS speed as well) and rooting/slowing the enemy and doing a smaller but the same effect to those hit by the tether (half speedup/root/slow).

This would be so much more interesting.

E

OLD - I like idea of shield bomb but I could see this becoming oppressive. This does give more room to balance her Q though.

CURRENT - I like the feeling of R+E alot.

NEW - Sharing the % is interesting. However it punishes hitting those 5 man R+Es that I love so much. I'm not a fan of being punished because my team is playing in a way that is strong for my kit (grouped). I would have picked Karma in champion select thinking it would be a good grouped team comp. Now If they are grouped for that awesome R+E I love so much that will get diminishing returns and I will be punished with a lackluster spell usage. This changes the 1 reason I loved karma which was those big R+Es.

Why not make it have damage even if its a trivial amount. Even if its only when Karma shields herself that way you can balance mid lane karma damage output alot more effectively?

R

OLD - YOU could store charges THAT'S SO COOL. Why did we remove all these cool things?

CURRENT & NEW - It's meant to give versatility but really you just R+Q early-mid and R+E mid-late. R+W for root duration is rare, you usually do it for a heal with you shield to escape or if you are playing tank karma.

Overall I just want what's best for Karma Karma

I miss playing her since tank / flashy support meta and ardent + shield nerfs.

I wanna see an interesting kit like old Karma not a unique one for the sake of being unique.

Honestly I think old karma didn't fit the times being too niche but now with so many champs and champs like Bard, niche is in and weird utility on champs works. I feel like old Karma would fit in a lot more in today's meta then she ever did before.

Her identity to me is Karma = Balance = Each spell should have an aggressive and defensive component to it = Versatility. Q Damage + Slow W Damage + Root E Movement speed + Shield

That's the way it is now and it used to fit her more so with her old kit.

Why not seek inspiration from her past when looking into her future?

Daylight V.

"I have seen two paths and made another between."

Rambo01410/25/2018, 9:01:03 AM13 votes

Oh boy am I going to get downvoted to hell for my opinion but it needs to be sad.

So, Karma currently has 3 big problems that are mentioned in this post:

  1. She lacks a unique gameplay aspect or thematic that sets her apart from the rest of the roster.
  2. She is a nightmare to balance for both soloQ and competitive at the same time (laughing in Ryze).
  3. Players feel like the mantras are not equal in strenght even in certain situations (except maybe tank Karma players?).

The way you are trying to solve these problems is a valiant effort and I think that these changes would greatly benefit Karma as a champion (but please watch out for the power on Mantra W. Noone wants to relive Lucian Bolt). As someone who loves to play Karma but feals that she is curretly unsatisfying to play, THANK YOU!

HOWEVER! These changes do NOT solve all the problems you mentioned. I cannot say if points (2) and (3) will actually get resolved since I do not have the insight or knowledge to predict that at the current stage but I am sure that your processes are well-thought out and that these two points will not be a bother after the changes. My problem however lies in point (1). I can see that you want to give Karma a new niche to be sort of a "Caster-Enchanter" with the way the new Mantra W works. Very cool idea and I quite like it. It even personifies what Karma stands for: Either a benefit for allies (R+W) or a detrement for enemies (W). A really nice duality. And this brings me to the BIG problem with Karma currently. To put it pluntly, the champion Karma currently has nothing to do with the association of the word "Karma". And this finally brings me to my main point of this comment (Sorry for the long introduction but valid critic is important IMO):

What was the problem with old (pre-rework) Karma? Yes, yes, I am one of these people that played Karma before her rework and yes I am still a bit salty that they changed her. But hear me out first before you dismiss me as one of the members of the "Salty cause Riot reworked my champion" club (shoutout to the old Yorick OTPs. Some of you guys are awesome). The main question is, why was Karma reworked? From what I can gather from old posts and comments by Riot Members, it was because

  1. She was not popular enough so she was financially not worth it. I completely understand that standpoint. League of Legends is a F2P game and Riot Games has to make money. A REALLY unpopular champion is a pain in the neck for this.
  2. She was kinda unhealthy gameplay-wise. As someone that played her at a decently high level back in season 1 I can completely aggree with that opinion. She was really dumb. Damage and %healing on her Q; Speed buff, slow and MASSIVE situational damage on her W, big shield and damage on her E and probably the quirkiest but IMO strongest passive back then: more AP the lower your HP. Think of it as Olafs passive for a mage but on steroids. I jokingly often called Karma the "Comeback Kid" simply because you could turn every fight around because of her kit. I do not even want to talk about how strong her ultimate with two charges was back then.

Riot did not see another way to solve these two really big problems back then other than to completly rework her. But that was when? Patch 3.5. Back in early to mid season 3. League of Legends was just really coming about and the biggest influx of players to date was starting to happen. A really good time to relaunch a champion that was only loved by a very small minority and open the gates to a broader audience. Except that Riot created their first unbalancebly champion in doing so. Too strong in competetive or too weak in soloQ, as stated by Riot themselves. So what to do now? I HOPE that i can get an answer to this, but have you ever thought about bringing pre-rework Karma back and try to fix her with your current, more developed, skills? Kinda the same way you tried to fix LeBlanc, Kog'Maw and Rengar? Karma right now lacks her duality and only by drastically changing her current kit will this be fixed. Your best shot would either be a new complete rework, a reverse to pre-rework Karma or just forget the whole idea of Karma as a concept.

This kinda looks like a REALLY big rant about Riots decisions back then but I just wanted to have an answer to my ancient qustion and I really want Karma to be a cool champion because IMO "duality" is the coolest concept for a champion for a MOBA since you can do so much with it. But currently she is only a crippled version of this concept that is slowly withering away and trying to sustain itself until it will ultimately pass on.

I hope that this very long comment is of any help or amusement. Now you can downvote me. Thank you.

The Blade Dancer10/24/2018, 9:37:13 PM11 votes

I wish she would get her fans back one day

FilthyZyraMain10/24/2018, 8:01:55 PM9 votes

Karma reduces target ally’s basic ability cooldowns by up to X seconds. Wasn't this old Zilean W on himself? It seems odd to put it on Karma when it would make more sense in a Zilean rework...

number 1 karma10/27/2018, 1:14:31 AM8 votes

As a karma main, this is a very disappointing post to see. Her kit is beautiful and unique as it is. The w change isn't bad that I can see, only allowing for more team options...but why change her passive? Because people who play it at a higher level can take advantage of it more? I don't see "the average player" playing Azir, or Zoe, or Yasou and taking full control of their kits and mechanics...why? Because they are an average player...there is going to be (and should be) a skill level difference between people who play one champion a lot to master those mechanics and those who don't.

In all this change is unnecessary and depressing to see.

AhhShucks10/24/2018, 10:46:29 PM8 votes

I played Karma a lot on her original kit with all it's silly issues. Shield bomb was the only one of her spells that felt like a real spell, but it was so fun that it kept me coming back.

Then her first rework happened. While she still had a shield bomb, it felt watered down damage wise from her old one in favor of power going to some silly AOE ally shield that I didn't care about.

Then you took away even that iteration of the shield bomb.

It was the only spell Karma ever had that felt unique and fun. I don't know why we keep getting all the random excuses about why she can't have it. Just get rid of the silly AOE shield and speed boost thing. All that stuff can be replicated with items. The shield bomb was Karma.

Every time I hear about Karma coming up for work I get my hopes up that maybe ya'll have finally decided to put her only unique defining spell back in her kit, and then am disappointed knowing that I probably won't be playing Karma for another few years.

Dr40UR10/24/2018, 5:04:46 PM7 votes

Souls Alight - Karma can see her allies&rsquo; total basic ability cooldowns.

How does she see her allies cds? Is it like Dota 2 where you click on them, or is there some indicator window?