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Ornn changes on PBE

RiotSquad5·11/6/2018, 7:39:16 PM·1 votes·222,716 views

Hey everyone, going to be pushing some medium scale Ornn changes to PBE for testing over the next few weeks that I'd like to get feedback from you all on.

Ornn has had some balance issues over his time - he's been a frustrating lane opponent and consistent Pro pick for a while, at the same time maintaining a much lower win rate than you might expect given those facts. This changelist should hopefully meaningfully reduce those problems and let us bring up Ornn’s win rate for the average player.

Let’s get into it. Disclaimer that none of these numbers are final, any numbers are the current values as I write this.

Stats:

  • Ornn HP/level increased from 90-95
  • Ornn Armor/level increased from 3-4

P:

  • Removed: Ornn and his allies must purchase upgrades from the shop after Ornn reaches level 13.
  • New: When Ornn hits level 11 any upgradable items he currently owns or buys in the future will automatically become upgraded for no cost. For the next 4 levels after 11, each level will allow Ornn to upgrade an item for an ally (max 1 per ally) at no cost. Ornn must get close to his ally and click on them, which will cause him to forge his ally's item and replace it for them when he's finished.

The intent of this change is for Ornn to be able to have multiple upgraded items, which coupled with some scaling base stat buffs should mean that Ornn is able to scale harder into the late game if he can purchase his items. Essentially think of Ornn as a gold accelerated character similar to Draven or Gangplank. The other benefit is that Ornn's allies should care a lot more about getting their items, since now they don't have to pay.

Q:

  • Mana cost reduced from 55 to 45 at all ranks

Looking to make it less necessary for Ornn to buy multiple mana crystals early on. A common buy for experienced Ornn players is two mana crystals early on to make up for his high mana costs, but it isn’t obvious for less experienced Ornns.

W:

  • Ornn's shield on using W is removed.
  • Ornn's W now grants him unstoppable for the duration.
  • W duration reduced from 1s to .75s
  • Brittle damage increased from 7%+.3% per level to 10% +.5% per level
  • Cooldown changed from 17/15/13/11/9 to 14 at all ranks

Ornn's W currently is too much of an "I win" button - it allows him to win almost every trade and confuses enemies as to what their response should be when he presses the button. Looking to clarify for enemies that attacking Ornn when he uses W is a choice, as well as trying to get out of the way or move back to not get brittle proc'd.

Replacing the shield isn’t intended to be a power equal trade, but it should give skilled Ornn players something to think about instead of blindly pressing W whenever possible, and should put more emphasis on Ornn proc’ing his brittle marks to win trades.

E:

  • Mana cost changed from 50 at all ranks to 35/40/45/50/55
  • Knockup duration from 1s to 1.25s

R:

  • R1's slow now scales with the amount of time the R1 has existed for (min 10%).
  • R2's knock up duration now is decreased to 50% on subsequent targets after hitting an enemy champion.

Ornn's R has been extremely powerful both as a pick spell and an AoE teamfight spell. Looking to make long range hitting R1 less powerful for picking off enemies, and I want to make enemy front liners feel better about getting in the way of Ornn's R.

I’m going to be making some more changes soon, including making adjustments to what items Ornn’s passive can upgrade. Most likely you'll also see some more buffs depending on where his power read is.

Thanks guys, I'll try to answer any questions that come up.

308 Comments

Menelwèn11/6/2018, 7:50:53 PM91 votes

I would preffer a real Tank Style than a Bruiser style,

That means I would preffer to have Both Shield and Unstoppable Effect, but for a very low damage, I don't like Ornn being a Bruiser play syle, but more of a Giant unstoppable tank who engages and tanks for his allies. I would prefer a Teamplay direction, a Tank who engages in fights and tanks, not a Bruiser solo lane type who destroy his openent with his Damage as a Tank.

DeathBurst11/6/2018, 8:15:38 PM49 votes

I understand where you're coming from, Squad5, and I agree with your goals, but I sincerely feel the current direction is bad.

My main complaint is that removing the shield on W means Ornn has no defensive steroid anywhere on his kit. Meaning his durability will come only from his stats (base or item). From my experience, and I play a LOT of Tanks, this is a bad idea.

Amumu for instance has no high defensive moment, and feels pretty bad to play from behind because of that. Maokai has only his heal that you cannot really play around, and feels super frustrating to play against because of that.

On the other hand, Leona's Eclipse or Braum's shield are clear moments where you know it's a bad idea to throw your spells, and you wait it out or you flank them. Zac has to work for grabbing his blobs and you can deny them. Sion has to ponder between damage and durability from his shield. This is what makes interesting Tank gameplay, playing as and against Tanks.

A Tank with no defensive steroid is a bad idea. Durability only from stats is not good to play, neither as nor against.

ForgottenLuck11/6/2018, 7:53:53 PM31 votes

Gonna be honest not a big fan of the changes here, especially the taking away of his shield in favor to make him more aggro, feel like that's the type of change that should be made onto fighter instead of a tank like him, the passive is nice change but also makes it kinda pointless if the teammates don't buy one of the items, and if they have no clue which they are I can see it happening more times than not.

I think these changes are really unnecessary, and change the champion in a core sense of what a tank is, but hey maybe that just be me.

Doublejho11/6/2018, 10:35:15 PM28 votes

as someone who played ornn to mastery 7 fervently and has taken him into both top and jungle consistently, i absolutely despise those W changes

why do you guys keep trying to make him deal damage? it's like you keep forgetting he's a TANK, yet you keep trying to shoehorn him into building CDR (which already reduces his defence by virtue of strong tank items not providing it) and have been gutting his tankiness since day 1 in order to try and make him deal EVEN MORE damage?

it's lunacy honestly, this whole time you could've just reduced his w's damage for both breath and brittle, but kept the cooldown the same so that a tank can actually be a tank; he's the squishiest tank in the game currently, he's squishier than most juggernauts and even bruisers in fact by virtue of having no sustain and having a weak, long-cooldown shield that he's forced to gimp his survivability to pander to, and it's seriously unfun to play even sion's shield is on-par with ornn's now, except sion ends up getting anywhere from 600-1600 additional HP a game while having higher damage and better CC anyway?

you even removed the unstoppable status on his W to pander to this, you removed PART OF HIS KIT and some of his only skill expression (which is already a rare feature of this game's tanks as-is), in order to make a tank do damage, because reasons? if ornn had a lower CD, lower damage W, you wouldn't have reached this point to begin with because he wouldn't need balancing, because he'd actually be tanky and he'd be a much less oppressive laner of "q w auto e, okay this trade's done" and would instead have to consistently land his skillshots to actually fight people

i get that his ultimate is insanely strong and needs trimming back, but he's worthless outside of it except for that one knockup you get a teamfight, after which you get ignored until last and then melted down because you're fairly unimpactful without it, and yet, despite being a tank, he's kept his "one-shot their adc until lategame" damage anyway?

i'm sorry if this is worded a little harshly but poor ornn's beyond a joke at this point and his solutions have seemed so simple too, what actually happened when you guys tried reducing his w damage but increasing its cooldown, if that was actually attempted? he doesn't even need to do damage so i'm confused as to why all of his changes have been made about maintaining his absurd base damages when it's not fair to trade with anyway

please reconsider these changes

PandaNator4311/6/2018, 8:11:33 PM17 votes

As a tank, it feels really good to have some skill expression in your tankyness. It felt really good to use his shield as a way to be beefy. that said, I see how an insta-cast self shield is low on skill expression, and lends its self to an "I win" button.

Your reasoning for removing his shield is sound. Overall the changes sound really positive.

Is there anyway to get his shield back, perhaps on a different ability. Perhaps different scaling for his damage vs shield build? Maybe if Ornn targets himself with his W it becomes a shield; could also make it delayed and/or channeled, rooted or self-slowed. Maybe its accompanied by a really small Aura burn around him (like sunfire) but doesn't apply the brittle debuff.

Is there any desire to add his shield back?

Moody P11/6/2018, 8:24:28 PM17 votes

so Ornn is becoming a juggernaut with tons of CC?

I don't know that I like giving him more damage while smashing his durability like this. Why don't you instead push damage from his W breath (to make it more about setting up his Brittle and less about spamming it for his big damage) and load it onto Brittle? Now his damage is more back loaded so he has to commit a little harder to the fight. That would make more sense than cutting the shield entirely.

At least in the current meta, being a front liner who doesn't have a shield, a revive, or an absurd quantity of HP, you might as well be going full glass cannon. Questioning this very hard rn

AirKingNeo11/6/2018, 10:50:49 PM12 votes

Ornn's W currently is too much of an "I win" button - it allows him to win almost every trade and confuses enemies as to what their response should be when he presses the button.

BECAUSE THE W DEALS TOO MUCH DAMAGE; ORNN DEALS TOO MUCH DAMAGE FOR A TANK.

Is it that hard to figure out that the problem isn't the shield, but Ornn absurdly high damage that's never been nerfed to a reasonable level?

Lewanor11/6/2018, 8:50:41 PM10 votes

UNSTOPPABLE IS BACK! THANK YOU RIOT! YOU'VE LISTENED TO US!

But as some people said, please don't remove the shield completely. Just nerf his W damage. Last time because you buffed the damage you removed unstoppable. Now you are removing shield and bringing back unstoppable.

Just. Nerf. The. Damage. OR Reduce shield in half but cut the damage a bit so we still have a shield(a weaker one) and less damage so its not an I WIN button.

And i love the passive change. That's how it should've been from the start. Now I will feel like a blacksmith warrior!

Skeletons Grave11/6/2018, 8:28:59 PM9 votes

stop increasing tank's damage pls.

Have we not learned from Zac, Sion and Poppy that increasing damage is exactly what player doesnt want? Most tanks already win trades verse other melee champs while also out scaling them. Now Ornn will heavily outscale and will provide 5k+ gold in stats to teammates if the game goes long enough. He doesnt also need to win the 1v1.

Look at champs like Malphite, Chogath, Naut, Sej, Nunu, and Shen. In most situations they dont out trade opponents but instead sustain or survive them. They are about team play, sturdiness, reliability, and "plays". Thats what a tank is, thats how a tank should play.

We have enough issues dealing with Grasp, we dont want tanks to become the best bruisers as well.

Keeper of Trees11/6/2018, 9:09:26 PM9 votes

You can't remove his shield and expect him to remain playable unless everything else about him is way too strong. Tanks and Bruisers both can't function without some kind of sustain in their kit, and Ornn's only sustain was his shield. Only one champ in either of those classes lacks any sustain and that's Shyvana who is also in the camp of being a giant stat check. I get wanting to change how he has to play lane, but removing the shield entirely is the wrong way to do it. He's just going to get forced out by all of the other tanks who trade and either take less damage or heal off the damage they took. Either way he is way worse off.

Makos11/7/2018, 3:43:24 AM8 votes

Feedback from challenger regular ornn player (less played lately because of bad changes, this looks good and a step in the right direction)

I played ornn 3 times on pbe, once jungle and two times top.

I love:

  • Ornn feels more like his own champion rather than tank version 20 brittle edition

  • I loved unstoppable and im glad we have it back. But now it wont completely cancel a cc if you are unstoppable when its applied and instead the remaining cc duration will still happen, kind of a bummer.

  • The knockup duration on E is really cool. They get knocked a bit too high visually though. This makes it hard to click/hit abilities.

  • Ult finally nerfed allowing this. Seriously the less slow is very noticable at max range.

  • Ornns items feel good now instead of being a "im full build time to get this" one out of 100 games scenario.

Concerns:

  • Lack of shield is really observable in multiple scenarios over every game i've played. Outplay potential has been reduced and sustain / teamfight reliability is greatly reduced. Ornn always felt squishy in teamfights and now he feels even less safe. I'd like to see a shield on his E if he hits an enemy champion/large monster like azir for example, or tie it to his knockup. Or even maybe every brittle proc gives him a shield. With the ult knockup being so low on additional targets this makes it a higher incentive to go for the big ults rather than the single target ones we will probably see from now on.

  • Passive feels clunky to use on allies. Sometimes he stops at max range to forge the item sometimes he walks up to them while casting? Probably a PBE bug

  • Too few upgrades. Now that they become a big powerspike for ornn's team we need more ornn upgrades than ever. It feels Ornn is forced to build sunfire/abyssal mask every game, it feels bad when your midlaner is building Morellonomicon but theres no upgrade for such a popular item, it feels like you're losing out more than before (from 1 in 100 games to every game). This is especially because before, people would just spend the gold on another item if they didnt have an upgradable one. Now since there's no opportunity cost, it just feels like wasted.

  • Cant choose which item to upgrade. My friend built black cleaver but decided he wanted trinity fusion, buying trinity force right after the cleaver. I clicked on him and black cleaver got upgraded automatically. What are the options for this?

  • Can we use anything but champion clicking for the ally item upgrade? Clicking on an ally's item on the scoreboard should be good enough.

  • The last game i played before writing this i clicked on lissandra who had zhonyas to upgrade it, and after the passive completed she had BOTH zhonyas paradox and hourglass. I basically gave her an extra free zhonyas in the process. While the actives share the cooldown, this is pretty much an important bug. Noting that the "walking towards her while casting passive" happened in this case. Might have to do with that. Lissandra claimed that this had happened on a previous game of hers with an Ornn.

  • My teammate could sell Obsidian Cleaver for 4200 gold. BC costs 3000 and sells for 2100, Obsidian used to cost 4k.

I just want to say that these changes are in the right direction and i hope you get the stats and feedback you want and need. I hope you can address these concerns.

EDIT: I misremembered and was wrong about unstoppable. Thanks champion spotlight for reminding me.

EMP7EA11/6/2018, 10:12:53 PM8 votes

I understand what you're going for with these W changes, and I've always been saying that removing unstoppability from his W was a bad move as it makes Ornn a lot more stat checky and less skill expressive. With that said, I think that removing his shield and increasing the damage isn't the best approach either. Since he's a TANK, most of his power should come from TANKiness and not damage because it'll almost certainly lead to one of the two following scenarios: Ornn builds full tank and wins every lane with superior damage without having to opt into damage items OR Ornn is completely useless in teamfights and every other tank is way more tanky than him so there's never a situation where picking Ornn makes any sense (almost all tanks have some sort of shields, damage reduction, healing or bonus resistances). I think a good idea would be if he would get a shield if he knocks up an enemy champion with his E (more enemies you knock up, the bigger the shield. Sort of like Courage of the Colossus). That way you can't just press one button and say "now you can't deal any damage to me" but if you engage in a teamfight you don't blow up instantly. In addition to the R nerfs I think this should ensure he stays viable as a teamfighter without making him a laning phase monster for no good reason (before he was both so I guess that's some improvement, as far as "unique champion identities" go).

TL;DR Unstoppable good; No shields not so good.

typervader211/7/2018, 12:02:34 AM8 votes

Why do you keep giving him more damage. The reason hes hard to balance was cause of the dmg. Just nerf the dmg and let him be tanky. Why pick him over anyone else at this point since he dies so easy AS A GODDAMN TANK!

Rojo17611/6/2018, 9:53:58 PM7 votes

I like having the unstoppable back but I can't get behind this idea of making him less durable. He already doesn't feel tanky enough for a tank.

Solari Fortune11/6/2018, 7:53:16 PM7 votes

So curious for the Ally upgrades

Say a Mage has Zhonya's AND Deathcap, will Ornn get to pick which to upgrade?

also does Ornn have to upgrade them in those 4 levels post 11 or just he gets 4 upgrade charges he can use later

Iota Theta11/6/2018, 11:33:58 PM7 votes

I normally avoid this card, but As a Mastery 6 with Ornn (up until the damage change on W from %current HP to %max Hp), I disagreed with a lot of his various buffs shortly after his release. Like others have said, his biggest issue was his damage buffs on top of reliability increases. He was originally sold as similar to Sion, less reliable but potentially more impactful tools in his CC and utility. His shield was never made W the “I win” button, but the change from %current hp to %max hp damage. He was at his healthiest for the game before that. Fairly unreliable, impactful in teamfights, just enough damage to farm and trade to not get pushed out, but not overpower, just like a tank should be.

I absolutely disagree that you’re increasing his damage in the Brittle procs, and reducing the duration and removing the shield. When the tank revamp was done, tanks were pushed toward more active windows of tankiness as opposed to passive stat sticks, thus the shields, damage reduction, or heals, depending on the tank. Ornn relied on his shield for his tankiness, and his unstoppable was to help him stay in the fights.

My proposal is take him back to release, minus some of his bugs, and start him from there again, where he was at his healthiest to date. This will not make him better.

If you’re absolutely going through on these, a QoL gripe is:

Ornn must get close to his ally and click on them, which will cause him to forge his ally's item and replace it for them when he's finished.

Please no. Zilean mains have already voiced that this mechanic is easy to misclick and cost a fight. Please do not do that to Ornn as well. At least add a UI element for it to avoid game costing misclicks (see the C9 match where Jensen started channeling his passive on Zeyzal and it messed up the start of the fight against..RNG? In groups).

Elunaar11/6/2018, 9:13:06 PM7 votes

Personally, I like him the way he is (picked him up semi recently, enjoy the kit, am finding great success with him). I dislike the direction of "high damage, high cc, low durability" for him, so i very much am against the removal of his shield. I never played him much when unstoppable was in his kit so i dont have the same nostalgic attachment some people seem to have to it. Perhaps the answer you're looking for, as someone else mentioned, is to add a shield to his knockup. Also as a note, which someone else has also said, the mana crystals arent so much a crutch, they just happen to build into two items he really enjoys (abyssal/gauntlet) so i wouldn't focus on that part too much.

Siqsa11/6/2018, 8:07:14 PM6 votes

Hey, I run a jungle YouTube channel, my main love is Ornn jungle and the nerfs over the year kinda made that hard. I like the passive shift - including gold efficiency with the bonus items. Might make it really nice in support too given I play him there also.

I'm slightly concerned about the W change. I like the unstoppable being brought back for skill expression, and the damage increase would be nice and offset the shield removal in terms of jungle clear, but concerned about the flat CD... it's a 5 second increase at max rank with the shield removal. If the shield was still there in some capacity, that might make more sense to me. I'd have to try it out (I'm not on PBE though) to see with the E/Q changes to see how would it feel. Early game it should be better for the clear but worried about when you have 4/5 points. But with 500 plus games, almost all jungle/support, I worry about removing that viability just to control top lane. Just some of my early thoughts...

Karrde11/7/2018, 4:16:04 AM6 votes

I enjoy playing ornn a fair bit, and I have three main complaints with this changelist.

  1. Allowing Ornn access to multiple upgraded items seems like it has a high chance of limiting his build paths, since these items now have so much extra stats thrown in. I could easily see a world where Ornn needs to be balanced around building 3 or more masterwork items, and doesn't get the option to go outside of that build path.
  2. Removing the shield completely feels bad for a tank who has no other damage mitigation built into his kit, I do think w is currently providing too much, and I would like to see the shield shifted to his e instead
  3. Giving W a flat cd. W is the iconic one of Ornn's basic abilities, and compared to q feels much more impactful, and from an enjoyment standpoint I feel W max feels much better than Q max, similar to when sion used to have e max as his strongest option when his Q felt much more like it should be his primary damage source.
Oni XXVII11/7/2018, 5:23:20 PM5 votes

rant incoming The constant direction changes being put on Ornn are really getting frustrating. Back when he had unstoppable and a shield on W,-THE OG W WITH CURRENT HEALTH DAMAGE - his purpose was clear. Engage tank. I R start a fight, land full combo on someone with untouched health, do good damage, and because my good damage was used I start peeling for my squishies. It felt so good to play tanky, cc heavy, not concerned about dealing metric tons of damage, Ornn. That Ornn was my 3rd Mastery 7 champion, and a pocket pick support into hook champs. Position and time W well, and it was so rewarding. Don't, and you get punished. Top lane into a CC champ? Same thing. Timing. Waiting. Scaling. Trades could be won without the my enemy allchatting "Me Ornn, Me hit W." But no, W had to be made into the "I win" button by changing it to % MAX health damage. Let's forget that for a while Ornn actually had to land a basic attack after W to win trades. His release kit was so clearly for CC and survivability in a fight, but it was decided for whatever reason that because he had a low win rate, HE NEEDS MORE DAMAGE. Nevermind that his team are buying wildly inefficient Ornn upgrades on their 2nd item, IT MUST BE BECAUSE THE CC TANK ISN'T HITTING HARD ENOUGH. He was given metric tons of damage in exchange for making it harder for him to outplay. Why would it not be expected for pros to pick him? They can appreciate his damage numbers while mechanical skill makes up for the absence of unstoppable. Meanwhile, more and more people pick up Ornn because of the W buff. Ergo, more and more people are learning Ornn. While this was going on Ornn's non-pro winrate had him targeted for so many buffs that it couldn't even be discerned properly what was making him so broken. Well, except that between his damage, CC, and tankiness, all you needed to do for a win was - and I quote, "drool all over myself in the frontline," as Imaqtpie so accurately put it. Is it really too much to ask that his W regain unstoppable and revert to current health damage? Why get rid of his shield? WHY DOES ORNN HAVE TO BECOME A BRUISER TO REGAIN UNSTOPPABLE.

Ending this rant here, as I do not feel I can gather my thoughts well atm. . . My frustration with his constant changes knows no bounds. . .

Edit: Riot we want the shield. Can you please not take it away entirely, we Ornn players were excited for Shield Bash on his empowered brittle basic attack. We were so excited...

NotAPurpleFrog11/8/2018, 1:55:11 AM5 votes

Tank loses tank stats, gains unstoppable and now deals more damage. So Basically he's a shitty, immobile bruiser now?

SithesisLord11/6/2018, 7:48:15 PM4 votes

Ornn's W now grants him unstoppable for the duration.

Bless you based Roit Gomes

Flemman11/6/2018, 8:04:11 PM4 votes

" For the next 4 levels after 11, each level will allow Ornn to upgrade an item for an ally (max 1 per ally) at no cost. Ornn must get close to his ally and click on them, which will cause him to forge his ally's item and replace it for them when he's finished."

how does it work if, for exemple, the ally garen has BC and sunfire? How does the game decide the item that got upgraded?

Fuzzikopf11/6/2018, 10:06:47 PM4 votes

Ornn is my most played champ this season and I really don't like these changes. They would essentially turn him into an item-upgrade-bot.

I mean, I get that his W and his R are too strong, but removing the shield will hurt his laning way too much. Maybe you could just shift the shield to another spell (e.g. give him a shield if he lands a knockup with E) and nerf the W/Brittle damage?

I really hope these changes don't go through like that cause they would essentially force Ornn into the jungle. As a toplaner, he would just have to wait for level 11 so he can buff his allies with the item upgrades. Ornn support would not be able to survive the lane without a shield, and he would take way too long to reach level 11 anyways.

I really hope you try to talk to some experienced Ornn players before you make significant changes like that. Because this is essentially a rework that changes his playstyle completely.

Anzotrix11/13/2018, 11:48:44 PM3 votes

As someone who was determined to one-trick ornn ever since i saw his teaser videos, i am very happy to hear some love sent his way. but like most of the comments ive read, i fear the direction of changes is in the completely wrong direction. i have struggled to play league this season in terms of certain champions being far over scaled in the first place, and to see ornn get increasingly weaker was upsetting.

I just want to share some thought on where i personally see Ornns weaknesses, and any ideas i can add to the conversation (sorry for being late to the party thought haha)

The order i want to address things, and i will try to be as brief as possible, will be: Current Strengths, Current Weaknesses, Rework Pros, Rework Cons, Any additional/alternative ideas i have,

So lets get started.

Current Strengths:

Ornn for the most part feels incredibly fun to play in my opinion. apart from a few really punishing match ups (darius for example) u can survive the opponents attempts of aggression with ur w, ur combos were simple yet required a touch of skill (timing the e right to hit the q for example), and the buying in lane ability gives him such uniqueness to a core basic of the game which i truly love.

his pick potential is seriously strong, which is why i agreed with the previous nerfs to his ult as a fair balance to the champion, and has opened him up for interesting rune choices such as ultimate hunter, or presences of mind.

the item building and unique upgrades are again a great feature to set ornn into this late game god status where not only you, but your whole team by default (and a cost) will be stronger the longer a game goes on.

and lastly his teamfighting. other than a few counters (yasuo and braum walls, or grounded effects beneath him), his engage potential is hard to match. fast and effective, with superior follow up potential thanks to everyone being 'brittled', which is a nice trade off as Ornn isnt himself a fast champion. without buying rightous glory, its hard to stay truly attatched to someone once uve done your initial combo.

i dont want to mention his damage here, although it is very high, i dont think it SHOULD be a strength and more an unfortunate balancing issue. he should have some damage, but its not what the priority of his kit should rely on.

Current Weaknesses:

Ornn cannot run away. Ornn is slow, his e can be interrupted during cast very very easily so his 1 potential escape ability is useless. and his ult id telegraphed so it can be dodged if played right. i dont see this as a negative thought. i think ornn would be far beyond broken if he could pick a choose which fights to take by simply running away.

As mentioned above, Ornn is telegraphed. all of his abilities are obvious in intent, and have animations and wind ups which give the opponent enough time to react if theyre skilled enough. his q is short range and takes a few seconds before the pillar pops up giving u time to jump, dash, flash, or potentially walk away before getting e slammed. his w doesnt apply brittle till the end, which yes is a big cone, but again you can choose to dish engage if you dont want to take that trade, and with ornns w being a self-lock-out ability he cant reliably chase you unless your stood on a pillar or next to a wall. his e as mentioned can be stopped, and has a minor wind up animation and travel time anyway so it can still be dodged if fast enough. and lastly his r, it paints a big 'red carpet' as i like to call it, showing u where it is. the only people who cant dodge this ability, are the people who waste their escape dodging R1 stupidly. Again i dont see these as negatives within his kit, more fairness in giving him weaknesses. the telegraphed nature of his kit should be the outplay people need to kill him.

Removing of Unstoppable. this was really a deciding factor for me in terms of maining this lovely hunk of demigod. let me start by saying, unstoppable on its own, is kind of a bad 'tank' ability. it only effects certain crowd controls such as knock ups and knock backs, and couple that with ornns w being a self-lock-out as mentioned before, and the ability itself doesnt actually hold that much strength regarding being an 'unstoppable' threat. However, it worked. and it worked in a really healthy way. there was only 2-3 match ups that could truly benefit from the unstoppable like w'ing gnars ultimate to avoid getting stunned. in chasing, if used at the right time could prevent a vayne condemn or tristana ultimate, which felt rewarding to predict but again with patience from the adc could have just been kited out till ornn used W.

On a personal note, i explicitly remember a play where we got invaded by a team with a blitz support, who flash q'd towards my adc. without even thinking i flashed infront and instantly pressed w, tanking the pull without budging. this is the single proudest display of quick reactions i have personally done in 5+ years of playing the game, as it just looked so natural even after only playing Ornn a few weeks at this point. even the blitz was impressed. unlike the first 2 in this list, i DO believe this to be a negative. Ornn worked well with unstoppable. hes a big beefy guy he should be able to stop people pushing him around, and i am very grateful to see a return of this mechanic to him.

Rework Pros:

The passive i would have to play and see, but from what i can tell i like it. concerned about how much power is given, essentially for free with the only condition just being patience to level up, but happy with the concept as it keeps to his theme as the forging demigod.

as said before, W unstoppable a big big thank you.

E changes are all around nice, rewarding the (in my opinion) hardest part of him to land an e (easy in a lane trade, not so easy in a chase/team fight scenario where everythings happening at once)

Dont see anything overly wrong with the R nerfs. if its still considered to be too strong then i rather this change than another cdr nerf or something of that nature.

Rework Cons:

The W Shield. as ive read, i am happy to see everyone has an agreed idea on this. aiming towards damage and taking the shield away from him is a bad idea. many people have stated already has all other tanks have benefits to actually avoid/absorb/regen/reduce damage done to them, and Ornn only had his sheild. and Unstoppable will not be a valid substitute on its own. I am happy to see a shield appear elsewhere on his kit (as people have suggested e before), but to out right gut this is a mistake, and i heavily disagree with it.

My Thoughts:

overall im excited to see where this leads, but i cannot say im looking forward to not having a shield. i think it is crucial to his survivability.

although i like the shield on e idea, i fear u wouldnt proc it nearly enough in teamfights. so my proposal, as im sure someone has already done, is to have it based on procing brittle procs. this means he can essentially get a shield via his w as before, but not instantly. so lane match ups who can keep him at range such as quinn or gnar or teemo, can try to trade him and get damage off, then simply run away before getting auto'd.

this in tern can create alot of flexibility for balancing, if you want his strengths to be in lane, then have the shield bigger if he procs it himself. if u dont want an absurd strong laning phase, then have the shield be better if an ally procs it, meaning in teamfights it requires good synergy as a team, as opposed to u trying to 1v5. this would be the optimal option in my opinion, as fights for ornn can be won by correct use of the w ability without making it so simple as 'press me to win'. if u cant hit anyone after ur w or r, then u dont get the protection u want.

as for the rest of the W ability, i would nerf the damage abit from what is current, and i would potentially nerf the cooldown by a second or 2 to compensate for unstoppable, and to avoid procing the shield idea above too often. i think over all this is a better way, than trying to make ornn a lane bully who falls into a bad tank role. it just seems confusing what the aim of the changes is other than being a lane bully.

ill leave it here as im sure many of you have stopped reading by now. hope this helps in any way and if anyone wants to discuss anything extra with what ive said feel free to ask :) thank you all and remember, #MakeOrnnGreatAgain

Oniii11/15/2018, 6:22:44 AM3 votes

Can't agree with the Ornn shield removal just to give him more dmg. He was never meant to be a damage dealer and I'm tired of tanks getting defensive tools taken out of them just because rito likes their big flashy dmg plays.

At the opposite end of the spectrum maokai's and zac's dmg were completely neutered while not making them any tankier (and I could argue they became less tanky due to taking away mao's dmg reduc ult and zac's ult which generated a crapton of blobs during teamfights.)

And for what? the most unreliable snare in the game (you can literally walk away from Mao's R) and Zac's ult which feels so bad to use unless you charge it, in which case it becomes extremely unreliable.)

But I digress. Point is, Ornn's a tank who brings strong engage and late game scaling to a team (in a game where Riot is already trying to reduce match duration to 30 minutes). So he dosen't need any more dmg, and instead he needs to be a wall for his team. How about giving him back the skill expression in his W which you took away, leaving the shield, and instead make brittle not deal dmg but increase the 'CC-enhancing' effect on it? We don't need any more dmg in a game where dmg creep is already disgusting.

Frelayer11/23/2018, 6:39:33 PM3 votes

Consensus, people ACTUALLY want to be able to play tanks. There are people that don't want to dash dash dash, 100 > 0 someone, dash dash, kill someone else dash dash dash get away. Some people in this game actually want to duke it out, or stay alive longer and do less damage. STOP fucking changing every tank in the game to be useless. Tanks are near obsolete in the jungle. There are like two or three viable tanks as support and top has Sion. Maybe Malphite. At this rate EVERYONE will be playing bruisers and assassins and that does NOT make league good. This was the worst season in a long time in the opinion of the majority of the vocal player base. Do you know what this season didn't have? Tanks. Other than pretty much Sion and maybe Chogath, tanks were missing. Rammus was the only viable tank in the jungle almost all season. Alistar, Leona and maybe Naut (I don't count Braum as he's a completely different play style from almost any other tank and really wasn't ever dominant but situational). 140 champions and only 3 tanks outside of support role performed decently until of course Urgot/Aatrox meta happened. Then there was even less. Let Ornn remain a tank. Beef him up. If people were really analytical they would also note that his W was op because of it's wave clear while trading. We don't need tank meta, but it would be REALLY nice if we could go back to having real front liners again.