Quick Gameplay Thoughts: September 29

RiotMeddler·9/29/2017, 4:42:15 PM·1 votes·55,400 views

Morning all,


Usual Disclaimers

These posts will often contain talk about future work we're doing, or planning to do, that isn't yet guaranteed to ship. The nature of the work could change or, depending on what we discover, projects mentioned may get put delayed or even stopped. If you'd like to see a Tweet whenever a new one of these posts goes up: https://twitter.com/RiotMeddler

Fewer champion gameplay updates coming for a little bit

For a little while (approximately the rest of the year) we'll be putting less time into gameplay updates like Xin Zhao's or Azirs and a lot more into getting pre-season ready and then balanced once it's out. We'll get back to gameplay updates at around the same speed sometime early next year, but expect to see fewer of those for a bit. VGUs (the large updates) by contrast will keep going at their usual speed, given the folks working on those aren't generally involved too much ith pre-season.


Runes Feedback

Now that all the runes are on the website and people are getting a bunch of play on them on PBE we're poring through feedback about them. There are some things it would be particularly helpful to get people's thoughts on in addition to general feedback, including:

  • Whether it feels like specific champions have no choice of primary and/or secondary tree
  • Runes that you'd always want to take, or never want to take
  • Runes where how they function isn't clear from the tooltip, or where there's information missing from the tooltip that's essential to making informed choices before the game starts

Build a Rune page website

As some of you may have noticed the rune page website doesn't reflect some of the recent changes to runes that are on PBE. We will be updating that website, but not as frequently as the PBE itself changes. Should see an update to it next week, and more regular ones following that, there'll be times where it's a bit out of date though and we're more focused on getting stuff into game and tested quick.


Balancing in 7.20 and 7.21

Generally we'll be balancing champions and the game in general for the new Runes system much more than the old one. We'll hit anything that's massively out of line in the new system still, but we're focusing work on how things will be for the long term, rather than the 2-4 weeks any changes in those patch will have on Live before old runes/masteries are replaced and balance around them's no longer relevant. Evelynn's one of the champs most likely to be affected by that (might be temporarily stronger or weaker than she will be long term).

http://ddragon.leagueoflegends.com/cdn/6.24.1/img/champion/Ziggs.png

347 Comments

The Deathsinger9/29/2017, 4:55:13 PM33 votes

A number of Karthus mains feel there's no keystone rune that benefits him. The Domination tree feels to be his strongest option, but there's still no keystone that he can benefit from. The restrictions of "three unique spells" really messes with his DPS capabilities.

Is there anything in mind for the DPS battle mages like him? Others like Cassiopeia and Vladimir can go the mobility and burst options, but there are limited options for Karthus. The inclusion of a 600g stopwatch is already concerning enough, please don't forget him this preseason.

Furthermore, with the removal of DFT, any possibility of reverting the wall nerf or otherwise giving him some compensation?

Omituinen9/29/2017, 4:50:22 PM22 votes

"Runes that you'd always want to take, or never want to take"

I worry that Kleptomancy will end up as a compulsory keystone for supports as the only way to support their gold income, especially with Bandit now gone and no other runes which give gold directly. For instance I could take the Guardian mastery on tanky supports or Summon Aerie on enchanters, but if Kleptomancy lets me get core items 10 minutes earlier then that's way better than taking either of those.

Is this intentional, or would Riot want to adjust support gold upwards and tone back the gold income off Kleptomancy if it ended up just being the obligatory support keystone with no real choices?

HenzoAF9/29/2017, 5:11:19 PM19 votes
  • Where is the DPS/Sustained Damage Focused Keystone for Battle Mages?

  • I don't even know how Press the Attack works, it's just too dificult to figure out.

  • I didn't really get Presence of Mind.

  • Bloodline still feels weak with 6% Life Steal, I would never take it over Alacrity.

  • Why does Coup de Grace has a hard fixed trigger while Cut Down and Last Stand has a "growing" trigger?

  • What is the minimal bonus and when do I reach full power on Cut Down and Last Stand?

  • Dark Harvest: Minion souls grant 5 soul essence. Is that right? I suppose that should be "Epic Monsters" or something like this.

  • Cheap Shot: Does the impairing ability apply the effect or do i need to apply the CC and then attack?

  • Ingenious Hunter: Why not 5(+5 per stack) instead of 1(+6 per stack)? The other two are 2.5(+2.5 per stack) and 8(+8 per stack).

  • What is the cooldown on Summon Aerie?

  • Is The Ultimate Hat multiplicative or additive?

  • Scorch seems too weak. I think it needs more damage late game, a AP/AD scaling should be added.

  • Iron Skin and Mirror Shell seems too weak when compared to Conditioning.

  • Revitalize seems not worth it when compared to Second Wind even when used on a Sustained Champion.

  • Biscuit Delivery, Future's Market and Minion Dematerializer all seems useless.

  • Celestial Body is too weak. 100HP is worth 267 Gold while Magical Footwear is woth 470 Gold.

Leonde9/29/2017, 4:57:26 PM17 votes

With the introduction of things like Urgot's ult, Eve's ult, and now some of the new runes that all have % health thresholds, could there be a way to display % health on the HUD? I think it's much more preferable for players to know exactly when a certain effect is going to take place, rather than inferring/guessing; especially since work to the HUD is already currently being done.

Rathar Dashing9/29/2017, 5:09:43 PM12 votes

Scorch is an absolutely useless rune. It's outclassed immensely by Gathering Storm, and is gated by a cooldown. Anyone with any scaling in their kit is going to go for GS or even Waterwalking, since the MS boost is constantly the size of boots of speed, making roaming and warding easier, plus the bonus stats are applied instantly from the beginning, making early trades in river and dragon contesting much better.

FancyKiddo9/29/2017, 4:48:55 PM11 votes

Hey Meddler.

At the Eve subreddit, we're feeling pretty lonely for interaction. We have suggestions, but it seems like they're being ignored or we're just too late in the development process to make a difference.

Regarding that, what do you think about the possibility of coming to main communities earlier when working on reworks? It feels pretty bad to love a champion for a long time, and then have a new one decreed to replace it without feeling like you have any say.

Thanks!

Linna Excel9/29/2017, 5:22:06 PM10 votes

Rune feedback:

  • Conditioning is strictly better to iron skin or mirror shell. Frankly they should function like conditioning be about 10 armor/mr and a 7.5% boost to a single resist. Maybe get rid of the time limit on conditioning as well.
  • Revitalize feels odd in resolve. If I'm soraka/sona/nami/janna I don't see many other options to even splash the tree. I mean I guess I could go demolish, but that feels wrong on a passive support.
  • Inspiration smells like poo-poo compared to the other trees.
  • Waterwalking should be renamed Riverfighting
  • Nobody likes dark harvest
  • Eyeball collection seems win more
  • Gathering seems like it's going to be a win-more skill for hypercarries and a lose-less skill for champs who fall off because of poop-tier scaling. Not really sure who it's for other than bronze. I mean despite C9-Lyn going past the 60 minute mark, you know pro teams are never going to take this.
  • Fleet Footwork is terrible. Taste of blood should heal an ADC more and should be up nearly as often. I really doubt fleet footwork will proc more than once in a teamfight or trade to be worth it as a keystone.
  • I feel like overheal should be a support rune that converts excess healing going out into a shield.
  • It'd be cool if there was a rune that converted 30% of a shield into a heal.
  • Triumph seems a little weak. You only get the heal if you get a takedown but in laning if that happens, you are going to push the wave in and either take the tower or base. In a teamfight, there's so much burst it doesn't feel like it'll help. It's almost like it belongs on the tank tree where it'll do better.
  • Legend:bloodline is terrible because you won't get any lifesteal until you get a takedown.
  • In short all of the sustain options in precision are terrible.
  • The AS options on the other hand feel like they'll be too good.
  • Last stand feels more like a tank or juggernaut option as ADCs have lifesteal to stay above 80%. Why is it here? I don't see either class splashing precision for last stand/triumph.

I'm wondering if riot went the wrong direction this preseason. Considering all the complaints we've heard about how terrible this season is, I feel like this isn't a big enough improvement for 90% of the playerbase to warrant the work. We know by the end of preseason there's going to be an optimal build for every champ, so it isn't like this'll fix that problem. I also feel like more could have been done if riot overhauled the items and whatnot instead. Maybe give a mid-sized rework to some of the problem champs.

I feel like that after the mymu, the assassin update, the support item update (mainly item 3301 and perhaps item 3504), and the tank update that league overall is worse and it would have been a better use of time to correct the fallout of those things instead.

Grief Me Please9/29/2017, 4:46:09 PM8 votes

Are there any more details on Karma buffs?

Geshultz9/29/2017, 5:35:47 PM7 votes

Meddler, how do you feel about sunfire cape as an item currently or other item balance in general?

Kloqdq9/29/2017, 5:11:48 PM5 votes

Saw a post on the Twisted treeline Reddit talking about a change to the Ban system on the map. Does that mean you guys are going to try looking at the map in the future sometimes after the pre-season stuff?

Everlark9/29/2017, 8:07:47 PM5 votes

Miss Fortune is one of those champions that doesn't seem to have a great set of rune choices. I'll try to outline the difficulties.

Precision is the usual primary tree for most marksmen, but Miss Fortune is less of a traditional crit carry than her peers. Precision has a ton of attack speed built into it and barely any %damage or flat AD (the only example of the latter being Press The Attack, which conflicts with her tendency to switch targets for Love Tap). This path provides her with relatively little benefit and is especially bad for Lethality MF.

Sorcery is one of the other choices for a primary damage path. Sorcery has some pretty cool options in the smaller runes, but all of the keystones perform terribly on her both in lane and out of it. Summon Aerie is weak and she can't use the shield aspect at all. Arcane Comet is incredibly unreliable with her more interactive Q-max laning phase, and her E-max laning phase is weak, boring, uninteractive, and still can't even make Comet land reliably. Phase Rush is probably the best option here, but her playstyle usually relies more on burst or good teamfight setup instead of brute-forcing people down in an extended chase. It mostly helps her kite better.

That leaves Domination, which probably has the best keystones options for her right now. Dark Harvest is a strong snowballing/scaling option and Electrocute gives more reliable early power. Predator is probably the worst of the three on her but still gives her a decent assassination option. However, the last two rune slots are lacklustre. Cheap Shot and Taste of Blood are decent options, but Cheap Shot can't really be used in lane without using E (same problems as Comet) or in a gank/all-in, where it offers little damage. Taste Of Blood is probably her best bet, but not as an aggressive option. However, Sudden Impact's Lethality being locked behind a dash/blink/stealth kind of feels insulting. Her fellow dashless Lethality marksmen (Varus, Jhin) both make better use of Precision as a primary path while Lucian can access Sudden Impact without burning Flash. The Bounty Hunter rune slot also offers her very little: all of her spellvamp-able spells are AoE (may be a bug since her Q is apparently supposed to proc spellvamp according the wiki, but doesn't heal her at all with this rune last I checked), she typically doesn't buy many impactful item actives (Youmuu's is probably the best use of Ingenious Hunter), and additional out-of-combat movespeed is weak because Strut already provides her with so much.

Resolve (rightfully) offers very little, and Inspiration is cool but relatively ineffective because her average autoattack range makes her a mediocre user of Hextech Freezeray, meaning it doesn't make up for the lack of damage in the rest of the path. Secondary trees tend to be fine because Sorcery, Precision, and even Inspiration all provide MF with some strong options without locking her into a subpar keystone. Anyway, that's enough about MF.

General rune impressions:

Fleet Footwork seems extremely weak. The change from %total AD with crit scaling (Warlord's) to low base values with terrible scaling in general is a perplexing choice in direction. Maybe I'm not seeing who this would be useful on, but with Press The Attack for AD toplaners and Lethal Tempo for marksmen, I don't know who else would even consider this. I'm tempted to say that Taste of Blood is almost as powerful as this keystone with its better early values, better scaling, and only slightly longer early cooldown.

Presence of Mind obscures too much of its numbers even in the detailed tooltip. Mana return values would be appreciated.

Dark Harvest seems pretty strong, but I'd like to see some clarification of the fact that deaths of relevant units on both teams (e.g. allied champions and cannon minions) also grant souls. Not sure if this is intended, so I'm asking for either a bugfix or tooltip change to specify this behaviour since typically only enemy deaths grant rewards. If it's not intended, the numbers on soul scaling seem to be quite low.

Arcane Comet seems really unreliable if you don't have hard CC. Not sure how this can be fixed; maybe make it slightly faster so that slows are more reliable in making it hit? Also, it's a pretty boring keystone. Not much interaction for the user other than "land your cc ability" or "land any ability and hope for the best".

Celerity's damage scaling seems weak. Even in extreme cases, 8% of bonus movement speed seems to have very little payoff in terms of offensive stats. Perhaps most of the power was intended to be in the 3% movespeed bonus? The fact that I wouldn't even consider this on MF seems a bit strange as a champion with 100 bonus movespeed in her kit.

Absolute Focus's tooltip is misleading. Last I checked, it did not scale linearly but instead gave something like a 5 AD buff at level 1, 7 AD at 6 and 11 and 16, and 2 AD at 18. I think smoothing out the curve is the simplest solution, but otherwise I'd like to see the tooltip reflect this. Not sure if Waterwalking follows the same pattern; didn't test that one.

Scorch also seems weak, particularly in late game. I recognize that this rune is probably not meant to be a late game rune, but its early impact is also somewhat negligible at the moment. I'd like to see its niche sharpened to focus on early game or to give it better scaling to compete with Waterwalking or Gathering Storm.

Waterwalking is a cool concept but I wouldn't use it in practice. It feels like a rune I'd want to try and play around, but the bonus AD/AP values scale so slowly that it feels like a waste of time to do so. The movespeed for roaming feels most relevant, but 25 roaming movespeed in the same slot as Scorch and Gathering Storm feels lacklustre. I'd like to have it scale to its maximum value sometime in the midgame so that you get the most value out of it during dragon/herald fights, when you spend the most time in the river and to differentiate it from the late, late game scaling of Gathering Storm (and if it already scales like that, I'd like to see that in the tooltip).

In Resolve, Iron Shell and Mirror Shell are so weak that it doesn't feel like I'm making a major tradeoff for always taking Conditioning instead. I'd like to see the secondary effect on Iron Shell and Mirror Shell provide extra flat resistances instead of 5%.

Lastly, I didn't really like Kleptomancy as a concept. I don't think gold income is a "cool" effect, and the RNG aspect of item looting is highly undesirable.

Other than that, I'm really liking the progress on runes. There's still a lot of improvements that can be made, but the overall direction is really cool and much better than old masteries. There are some sacrifices on certain niche builds on old runes, but I think that the gains are overall more than worth it.

EDIT: I've been reading some of the other replies in this thread and and someone mentioned that there isn't a great keystone for DPS-focused spellcasters (Karthus, Kayn, Rumble, Malzahar, Fiddlesticks, and Singed being some examples of champions I've seen fitting this pattern). Seems pretty accurate to me since I've run into the same problem with MF though she's actually better off than most of those champions; there's nothing really similar to DFT in the new runes, which seems to have left a gap behind.