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Quick Gameplay Thoughts: January 25

RiotMeddler·1/25/2019, 4:20:28 PM·1 votes·151,190 views

Hi folks,

Usual Disclaimers

These posts will often contain talk about future work we're doing, or planning to do, that isn't yet guaranteed to ship. The nature of the work could change or, depending on what we discover, projects mentioned may get delayed or even stopped. If you'd like to see a Tweet whenever a new one of these posts goes up: https://twitter.com/RiotMeddler

Crit Item Work

We're currently aiming to ship changes to crit items, plus potentially some other associated work, in 9.3. Our goals for that look like:

  • Crit marksmen players have an appealing crit build path
  • Marksmen (crit especially, but others to some degree) have improved ability to get some defensive effects when needed early/mid game
  • Satisfaction of play for crit marksmen games increases
  • Changes range from power neutral to power positive depending on the marksmen in question (e.g. Tristana has room to be stronger, Sivir probably doesn't)

How we're looking to accomplish those goals:

  • Pulling some power from crit builds late game to put it earlier. Stronger 2 item spike especially, with crit synergies kicking in quicker. While we don’t think crit builds should be as powerful on 2 items as other builds are, given their late game’s noticeably stronger, we think we made the difference too large with our changes last year.
  • Reducing anti synergies between some items and frustrations like builds overcapping on crit
  • Changing some items so that it's not such a large damage loss to get some defenses into builds for crit users
  • Miscellaneous other changes

Some specifics of what's currently in and looking pretty solid:

  • IE goes back to increasing critical strike damage though not as much as it used to (225%). AD also gets increased to give it a larger early impact
  • Essence Reaver goes back to a AD, Crit, CDR, mana return item. Mana return's on every AA and CDR is a flat 20%.
  • The current ER effect (AAs lower CDs after ult cast) gets moved to a new item with an AD, health, CDR statline (using the name and icon of Spear of Shojin, the original design of which we concluded was too overlapped with other items, Sterak’s especially). Goal is to have it be useable by both some marksmen and some other classes as per current ER.
  • PD gets a Lifeline passive that grants a shield when you fall below 30% health, also grants MS and ghost on basic attacking a champion. Loses the damage reduction from the enemy you last hit, though. Shift overall towards much more a burst mitigation item than a duelist one. Current PD has very few core users, with the two most noticeable, Trynd and Yasuo, champs who pivot between Shiv and PD depending on the tuning of each. Goal is to ensure Shiv’s a good option for them as a result, with a Shiv buff likely both to help them and other users.
  • All upgraded crit items go to 25% crit (IE, ER, PD, RFC, Shiv, Hurricane)
  • Stormrazor remains an AD/AS item, though now with a unique passive that amps your Energized effects (Fleet Footwork, Shiv, RFC) when they trigger.

Still being worked on, details less certain:

  • Tuning on Spear of Shojin. Might cut the basic ability CD reduction to 10% per hit for example from 20%. Stat line on it compared to ER is more generally appealing and want to avoid it being extremely dominant.
  • Looking at other defensive effects, including things like whether defensive base stats should be adjusted, whether it should be more feasible for marksmen to build defensive boots when needed etc.
  • Item costs, exact numbers on many items.

Akali, Aatrox and Irelia

Wanted to share some thoughts as well on where we're up to with these three champions, given they've been challenging to balance and have been the subject of a lot of discussion recently. The core focus is on giving them more meaningful weaknesses, so opponents have clear windows/ways to play against them, rather than on power. A secondary focus is reducing the sheer number of mechanics on their kits.

Aatrox

We had nerfs to Aatrox in 9.2 (Q ratio, E CD), with the primary goal being just trimming some power from him, since we felt he was overpowered in most contexts. We've got some follow up work in 9.3 as well aimed at giving opponents better ways to play against him. Power impact of those changes to be determined after we’ve assessed 9.2.

We're testing two main directions at present. The first is giving his enemies more periods of time where his E isn't available. That likely means removing the charge system from it so he can't use one and still rely on having another whenever he wants it. Still debating whether the right version of that is a shorter CD single cast or a longer CD double cast where he can still dash twice but has to use the second close to the first (like Renekton E). Second change is we're probably removing E's spell vamp against minions, with some increased HP5 to compensate, so that he's not as able to shrug off harass as easily whenever he's able to push waves.

Akali

Getting the immediate question out of the way first, yep, we'll be removing Akali's shroud making her untargetable under towers. We don't think that alone will solve everything with Akali, but agree it's a good change, especially given even many Akali mains would prefer that the effect be removed and power spent elsewhere. The original intent with the shroud working under towers was to give Akali similar dive capabilities to other assassins, despite her longer kill times, while also adding some additional uniqueness. While it accomplished that it did so at a high counterplay/frustration cost, though for quite a while we were very split internally on whether the cost was too high or not.

In terms of other changes we're also looking at Akali's sustain and whether, like Aatrox, she's potentially shrugging off harass too effectively via her Q heal. We generally want champions able to create and win all ins with some reliability to be more vulnerable to harass. Debating at present whether, if we do remove the Q heal at max energy, we should replace it with another mechanic or not. For those of you who play her regularly is that something you enjoy optimizing around or not?

Irelia

Like Aatrox, Irelia just got nerfed in 9.2 and we'll need to see how those changes landed. Again like Aatrox we're also looking at some follow up work to add more counterplay to her, reduce how much agency’s in the hands of the Irelia player versus her opponents. That work's a bit earlier on than work on Aatrox/Akali. Likely approaches include making W more (or only) effective against physical damage so she's a less universal pick, improving visual effect clarity on E so it's clearer when you will/won't get hit, changes to improve her top lane performance.

At some point long term we'd also like to make it so Irelia's got a more distinct niche, make sure she's bringing something distinct to a team so that when she's a good pick isn't purely dependent on her general strength. The extra damage to shields on her passive and disarm on R were attempts to do that during her VGUs original development. Our conclusion was though that they weren't pulling their weight in that regard, so it was better to strip them off given problems they created, given Irelia’s been an ongoing issue, then find better ways to get needed distinctiveness at a later date.

Damage Adjustments

As mentioned last week we've been working on some targeted changes to damage output. Likely have details to talk about next week. Target is to ship changes in 9.4, in part so we can see how 9.2 and 9.3 affect things.

http://ddragon.leagueoflegends.com/cdn/6.24.1/img/champion/Ziggs.png

531 Comments

Occhan1/25/2019, 5:06:28 PM76 votes

As someone who's been playing Akali for 3+ years now, I feel like riot is constantly making her into a worse iteration of her prior kit. The thing we liked the most about Akali before the rework was her burst, stickiness to targets, one shot potential (if fed) and the simple design of the kit. None of that remains after the rework due to her kit being totally based around the shroud and passive mechanic. It doesn't even feel right to call Akali an assassin because it takes ages to kill someone while you dance around your passive circle for ages.

With the proposed shroud changes, atleast shift power elsewhere to her kit to compensate and push her towards being an actual assassin. Either make the passive circle smaller or get rid of it. Literally every other assassin - talon, zed, katarina, fizz etc. has the ability to dive under tower with their burst without taking much damage. The only way Akali could match that would have been the shroud which is now being taken away. We need a compensation for that in terms of quicker burst damage so that it doesn't take years to do the same job other assassins do in seconds. Please make her an assassin again, I don't want her to be just another bruiser pretending to be an assassin.

Finally the healing needs to remain. Her ult is 120 seconds CD, shroud shows outline and half channelled abilities go through, e is already a skill shot. She has already suffered enough due to pointless nerfs within the past few months. If RIOT is adamant about this change, then I'd propose channelling her sustain into her auto attacks in synergy with her passive. Like the old Akali's sustain which allowed her to heal off of auto attacks.

I'm sorry for being very blunt, but this is infuriating. Should have just removed it from the start instead of nerfing her to the ground and now wanting to take away the last few redeeming qualities of the champion. I'd even take the pre-rework kit over this one any day of the week.

Edit: Riot Captain's new tweet confirmed that they will be removing the Q heal. It's really sad and disappointing to see that Riot ignored all of our comments after asking us for our opinion on the matter and then proceeded to remove the heal anyway when everyone requested to keep it in the kit.

Moody P1/25/2019, 4:26:35 PM38 votes

Can you please un-buff Volibear? I don't know what to complain about anymore

Valanáro1/25/2019, 8:27:57 PM33 votes

Hey Meddler,

I'm Valanáro and I fell in love with Aatrox when I first started playing your game 4 and a half years ago. I enjoyed his gameplay, visuals, lore and overall theme, even reaching Diamond 2 in season 8.

When the 'Rework' went up it was evident that this was a completely new champion. After reading the posts on Nexus and understanding what Riot's goals are with a 'Champion Update', I have to say that the results of Aatrox's rework don't line up.

https://support.riotgames.com/hc/en-us/articles/202294884-Champion-Update-Schedule#h1q1 "A champion update is a graphical or kit (play style) update that occurs after a champion's initial release. Over the past year, our teams have been working on updating champions whose visuals or gameplay don't fit with the current state of the game. Our goal is to level up any outdated visuals or gameplay to make them feel fresh while still retaining what makes them unique as a champion."

Aatrox was an unique auto-attack based champion, using proper aa management to either heal or do bonus damage. This provided a unique balance between deciding whether to do significantly more damage or heal yourself which separated a good Aatrox from a weak one. The rework did not retain any of this concept, turning him into a caster with completely different abilities. I understand the need to change his gameplay as a drain-tank is not healthy, but completely removing this mechanic and playstyle contradicts what Riot has published as their intent of a Champion Update, which is what players requested.

Of course a big VGU involves changing/removing/adding abilities, similar to how Irelia got her W and E, Nunu got his big snowball, Urgot got his R. Aatrox players expected a Warwick+ level update, where a champion had all of his abilities modernized. Warwick was similar to Aatrox, an unhealthy drain tank who built one or two AS/On-Hit items, into full tank. The rework provided a significant change to his abilities, modernizing his gameplay to meet higher standards, but maintained his personality and playstyle as well as the concept of his old abilities.

With the rework, Aatrox lost his abilities, playstyle, gameplay, lore, and voice-lines. The similarities between the original and rework include: using a similar in-game model (for the skins), sharing a name, having an ult that makes him big and do more damage, having a revive, and having passive healing. With these changes taken into account, it's evident that Aatrox's uniqueness was not retained which then means that the Champion Update did not live up to Riot's own standards.

On the nexus post https://nexus.leagueoflegends.com/en-us/2018/10/ask-riot-assassins-and-chromas/ , Reav3 says: "Retiring a champion is not something we have ever considered, and likely we never would consider this. We would much rather go back and update our older problematic champions with either small reworks or through big VGUs. Retiring a champion would set a weird precedence where players would always be worried that the things they invested in would be taken away from them at some point, which isn’t something we want our players to worry about." -Reav3

Aatrox lost everything about him that defined him. His abilities and gameplay were removed, his lore was removed, and his voice-lines were removed. If that's not "retiring" a champion then this nexus post has no purpose other than to make Riot look good in the eyes of the majority.

What about the hundreds to thousands of hours that players invested in Aatrox? What about the skins they bought to play as THAT champion? What about the time people took to learn how to use his kit and all the lane matchups? What about the artists who creating amazing pieces of art because they loved the champion?

Reav3 says that Riot doesn't want players to worry that their champion and investments (not just money) would be taken away but that is exactly what happened here. I understand that Riot wants the best for their game, and that sometimes they make mistakes. Riot really just needs to acknowledge that the Aatrox rework did not deliver a successful Champion Update, yet delivered a successful New Champion.

I think it would be beneficial for Riot to start fixing this mistake, rather than pretend it never happened or that it was the right thing to do. This could set a new standard for Riot as an engaging company which will work to improve League of Legends, who isn't afraid to admit they made mistakes and correct them.

TLDR: Aatrox was retired from League of Legends, which Riot said they wouldn't do, and Riot could solve this problem to benefit both players and themselves.

Thanks for the long read, just remember that Aatrox mains won't die out. Pain is temporary, Victory is forever!

Valanáro

Chronabis1/25/2019, 5:12:26 PM29 votes

This rework fixed nothing and only served to let Jag diss on Aatrox mains. How is that acceptable in any shape or form? You asked us to wait 2 years, only to tell us "well it ain't for you". How am I as a loyal fan and customer supposed to feel? I waited and sat through years of memes and ridicule, only to end up with Riot themselves telling me that they never cared. Really I wanna know, who said this kit is ok? Did no one look at it and go "oh we made another Zoe/old Nid". A one spell wonder, who kept absolutely none of the traits that made Aatrox who he was (not the story, not the look, not the gameplay, not the voice). You didn't rework Aatrox, you deleted him and then laughed.

Roigaar1/25/2019, 4:53:39 PM27 votes

I feel like Riot absolutely refuses to listen to the community on the subject of PD. Why ask for feedback if you're going to ignore the overwhelming majority of people who expressed displeasure in seeing PD used as a placeholder for Lifeline?

PD has limited users because you created a system that rewards you for combining Shiv and RFC — energized. You created a system that has one option be the mathematical optimal choice, then move to change an item with a great concept and great satisfaction because it's "not built enough". Never mind that there's no reason why Lifeline can't inhabit a new item, since there is no actual motivation to change PD.

Melee ADCs have PD in their core. Duelist/short range ADCs do as well. And instead of fostering an item system that doesn't make decisions for you before you even hit the game, such as the Energized mechanic that predetermines your builds and has had negative repercussions on the balance of every part involved in this system—Shiv, RFC, Fleet Footwork—you repurpose an item for your convenience against our wishes.

I just don't understand.

I hate that argument. Why don't we talk about the fact that Runaan's Hurricane has an even lower buy rate than PD? https://www.leagueofgraphs.com/champions/items How is the argument for changing PD that it lacks core users without asking ourselves why that is so? Both Zeal alternatives are less commonly bought by marksmen because you made a system that makes it so. Not just that, but you're planing to double-down on it by adding yet another Energized synergy item to the system. The rest of the Zeals can't compete in an ADC's inventory because the synergy is simply objectively superior if you want to deal damage. You need to have an extremely compelling reason to buy another type of item in its stead, like Jinx's overlapping AoE instances that both make for the mathematically superior damage choice and just as good a waveclear tool than Shiv.

The current changelist is just flawed. The rationale is flawed. It's incredibly frustrating to have a pantomime of a communication channel only to get stonewalled when we cast reasonable doubts on the decisions you're making. It's pure arrogance.

Tsolidsnake1/25/2019, 5:09:29 PM23 votes

Ok Meddler, I appreciate the work you guys do and the updates. Though are you seriously just going to gut Aatrox even further, before even analyzing this patch?? After the rework fiasco, you guys have not communicated with any mains that continue to play the reworked champ. You instead just hit us with nerf after nerf, and expect us to take it. Do you once again want him to be in the same state as old Aatrox? The lack of communication and bombardment of nerfs is actually just getting ridiculous. You might as well remove him, because clearly you guys don't see the value in actually addressing any problems he may have correctly. You guys even classify him as a Juggernaut when he doesn't even build like any Juggernaut in the game really, he was to go full ad and dive the backline like a diver to be of any use. Also, why nerf the healing on minions when other champions can already purchase items he can no longer purchase that give life steal and the fact that his spell vamp on minions is not very significant early game at all, it's only noticeable after multiple waves once you have purchased ghost blade.

Please actually discuss with the mains instead of sending him back into a place of obscurity like the old Aatrox.

pogcorn1/25/2019, 4:48:54 PM18 votes

why are you guys so keen on non stop nerfs on aatrox? the 9.2 nerf was based on no competitive games. You guys went ahead with 9.2 nerfs before pros scenes even started playing on 9.1. It's like you guys wake up from severe concussion and don't remember what you have already done before hitting your head. Do you not see the current aatrox win rate in solo Q on 9.2? Did you know that he has 44% win rate in LCK and that's the 9.1 aatrox?

How about you fix the fucked up meta first before touching the champions?

and where the fuck is karthus nerfs? he is literally S tier in 3 different roles. How about shift aatrox to hyper late game carry? because by then your dumb balance team will make him over powered early and have a guaranteed late game and it will be totally ok

it's known that balance team isnt the brightest cookie in the jar but c'mon

BulletBlast1/25/2019, 5:06:39 PM17 votes

At this point just delete Aatrox ffs can you please adleast keep his identity........ ffs like the healing in combat is his thing come on! I don't even notice that i heal someone can guy vamp septer and heal more than aatrox you just nerfed him i can bearly win a game now because of it and you plan on nerfing him again....... i keep thinking aatrox rework is better than oldtrox but at this point it would be better to give him his old kit adleast then we can win a game and not have to be tormented by constant nerfs to a champion that you took away his old identity

World Ender1/25/2019, 4:56:15 PM17 votes

Might as well just delete Aatrox...what was the point of his rework if he's just going to be left to rot in 47% winrate again?

Moody P1/25/2019, 4:33:52 PM17 votes

Have you considered making Aatrox more in-line with traditional juggernaut strengths? E.G taking a bit longer to kill you but being incentivized to bulkier builds, perhaps exchanging his spell-vamp for % healing when he lands sweet spots/procs passive? I think a push towards a more "familiar" Aatrox that favors longer fights rather than bursting you out or failing hard would be a good change.

I still think you've gone the opposite direction with Irelia that you should have. IMO sharpening her identity would be the right call, as well as giving her some nerfs to push her away from this pseudo-assassin design she sometimes emulates, especially when fed, and closer to her OG playstyle of being a DPS threat. Something I'd have done would be like.. Making Q do reduced damage to champions if they've been hit by Q recently (nerfing her reset burst), raising disarm's duration to, like, 2/3/4 seconds but nerfing - or even removing - the overall slow (makes her very effective into AA based opponents but greatly inhibits her overall power; niche strength up general power down)

Is Akali's tower invisibility really that frustrating? I almost never see it actually used for tower diving but I play a lot of Illaoi so maybe I just don't experience any matchups where it's really a problem.

Silver6Fiora1/25/2019, 5:20:05 PM15 votes

Aatrox appears to be at 47% wr in plat and up. Perhaps he's nerfed enough?

Ma1co1m1/25/2019, 5:24:19 PM15 votes

Hey @Meddler

Akali main here. I don't think the healing itself is the issue I think the issue is that its on Q. If you want to remove it off Q you should move it to her passive and have her healing tied back to her AAs so that when she walks up to heal in lane she can be punished rather than healing at a distance. It'd also make it so that when she heals she takes some damage from the enemy on the backend reducing the total net healing.

While you're at it please get rid of her passive circle, or at least make it smaller and give her Q a legitimate sweet spot. Especially if you want her to be able to dive like other assassins. Her passive design is literally the only thing keeping her from doing so. The passive circle, the way it currently is, is not a fun delay mechanic to her damage especially on an assassin and makes her damage pattern feel more like a bruiser than an assassin. Her shroud could be balanced a lot easier and be weaker (which makes it less frustrating to play against while not gutting her) w/o her current circle passive because her shroud wouldn't be required to protect her as well it currently does since she has to run out the circle and then run back to her target to deal damage.

Austy1/25/2019, 5:01:09 PM14 votes

Long time diamond Akali main here, let’s use this post to voice our thoughts on the healing from Q. Personally, I think it’s a necessity. Akali has low base defensive stats and is extremely susceptible to poke early on (especially since the change to her shroud in a recent patch that made her easier to track in shroud). In top lane she probably wouldn’t feel the lack of heal but in the mid lane it would honestly be a nightmare playing against anyone who knows how to properly punish in the melee vs range matchup.

Wukong Airlines1/25/2019, 4:34:39 PM13 votes

Hey @Meddler, recently Riot AzuBK announced a work on Wukong will start in the near future. Can we get some information about what exactly will he be getting? is it numbers adjustment, passive change, Xin-level rework?

Thank you.

DesuGamer1/25/2019, 4:31:16 PM8 votes

Anything about Karma's possible changes/rework? I'm worried about changes I really like her :(

shofaz1/25/2019, 4:21:59 PM8 votes

Hey meddler last week you said that you guys MIGHT consider nerfing Viktor again. If you do, would there be proper compensation to AP Viktor?

Also to kill Tank Viktor(since its unhealthy and makes it hard to balance both Tank and Ap build) why not remove the mana scaling on his shield(compensating it with base or increased AP numbers on shield)or make Iceborn Gauntlet melee only? This would give room to buff AP Viktor.

And in general are there any future plans to help AP Viktor? And do you guys think that Tank Viktor should be killed? After all mages being tanky in the past (ekko and fizz) usually cant be balanced.

Morning Raven1/25/2019, 5:01:40 PM8 votes

Why did you guys opt for reworking Phantom Dancer instead of making a fifth defensive Zeal item? There's a lot of reasons to have a dueling style zeal item and there are times it's the best decision to take (speaking as a marksmen decision, not even the fact this messes with the melee crit champs way too much). I'd prefer if you guys kept PD as is (30>25% crit batch changed etc) and did something like reused Ionic Spark's icon for a new item with lifeline.

I understand the concern about Akali's sustain, but as a player who just used it to save myself from a clutch ignite play late game yesterday, I'd prefer to keep it lol. I'm curious as to what the mains would prefer if she didn't have it, but Akali isn't as bursty as other assassins so she kind of needs something like it.

Can you give some insight on the Irelia changes as to why they eventually help her become a top laner? The Irelia mains reddit has been bombarded with talk of how you're removing things on her that are more useful within top lane (disarm/shield piercing) and things like the ult slow/damage compensation make more sense for her midlane. Also, her W being only physical damage also means she's useless against things like Viktor top. Why not 20% magic reduction and however much physical reduction? Wouldn't her identity problems come with the fact she's some Diver/Skirmisher/Assassin hybrid instead of mostly just one of them? Since she's ability burst mark system and has strong autos?

Happy Friday!

Petipuf1/25/2019, 6:53:50 PM8 votes

So a theme here that I'm seeing between gutting Akali's shroud and Irelia's disarm, and honestly other champions as time goes on, is that their "unique" kit abilities are being pulled to allow for more "balance". Similarly, this has also happened with Ornn lately with removing the unstoppable and then the shield on his W. Also with Azir with his knock up and many other parts of his kit. These things all change the way a champion feels at the core level. When you release champions, it is as though you are showcasing to the community those champions and their identity. When you alter a champion's identity to such a degree, it feels REALLY bad to those that main that champion and to the game as a whole.

I understand the need to change a champion as a last resort for the sake of balance and the health of the game. My question is, why are they being released with such overloaded kits and in such an unbalanced, unhealthy place? Does the blame fall on the designers before ship for overloading the kits and releasing mechanics that are unhealthy for gameplay? An example that comes to mind is Sylas and his E, which has a dash, a shield, a knock up, etc. What an extremely strong skill. Or Akali with her shroud that goes make her untargetable under turrets.

Does the blame fall on the balance team for not finding appropriate ways to balance the characters and items before removing core identifies of champions? It feels like the always tends to go in a direction that favors "uniqueness" at a cost to balance, and that's what brings us in this mess. I don't think the game should be a testing ground to show who can come up with unique mechanics and how many things someone can overload in an ability, but at the core, what is fun and healthy for the game.

Old Man Riven1/25/2019, 6:16:16 PM7 votes

So with Aatrox, you’re either going to nerf the sustain from lane minions OR nerf his E charges? Not both? Because you don’t need to gut him, and I think it would basically obliterate him to cut the two charges from his E.

Galactic Mayhem1/25/2019, 4:31:03 PM6 votes

Do you mean to say you want to make akali targetable under tower? Because she was always revealed

WoefulMe1/25/2019, 4:36:57 PM4 votes

Hi Meddler!

Any news on the Quinn walk cycle update? There's been radio silence on that for a while.

Lil Homie busta1/25/2019, 4:41:42 PM3 votes

Is the crit items change coming to the PBE next week for testing?

beany1/25/2019, 4:43:19 PM2 votes

Might be more of a question for reav3 but do you know who is the main designer for Mordekaiser 's gameplay?

AIQ1/25/2019, 4:25:43 PM2 votes

Hey Meddler.

Are there any plans to deal with level 2 invades and tanks by the most oppressive junglers? With Shyvanas power farming getting hurt by the changes are there any additional bluffs to her since the ones she got had little to no impact? Also you mentioned you'd look into scaling with elder dragon, but it never came through was it determined bad?

Marco13911/25/2019, 4:27:17 PM2 votes

Hey Meddler, what about the original shojin design/purpose?(an item for lighter fighter to make their teamfight potential a bit better).

Does shojin replacing ER mean that that design is dead?