Mid Year Mage Updates - Vel'koz Direction

RiotCaptain Gameplay·2/21/2016, 12:52:48 AM·1 votes·140,170 views

Greetings from Champ Roster Land (not to be confused with Champ Rooster Land).

We wanted to follow up on the last update from our team on Malzahar with a post outlining our current thoughts on Vel'koz, as he was the mage in the Group that had the most discussion and vocality.

Currently, Vel'koz is a mage with a kick ass theme but lackluster execution and little strategic relevance to the game aside from non-farm dependent damage output, a crown support Vel'koz shares along with support Brand and Zyra. As an Artillery, he also suffers from the worse poke of the lot, poor relative target selection, and poor scaling. For Vel'koz, this reveals underlying flaws that essentially say: Unless I do insane amounts of base damage regardless of my farm, I am useless and there is no strategic reason to ever choose me.

This is not to say that Vel'koz is horrible and needs to be completely overhauled. Actually, we share many of your own feelings on him and see the glimmers in his kit. Our goal with this update is to give him that final push that he needs to fully realize his own purpose in League of Legends. For clarity's sake, I'll follow Repertoirs bullet point summary:

Things we especially like:

  • Geometry and poke/kite pattern (Q+W), with powerful combo casting/all in (+R)
  • Deconstruction through abilities and Research/Understanding you opponent thematic (Passive)
  • Poorer target selection compared to other Artillery - Vel'koz works harder than most to hit the back line, and when he does it should feel amazing

Things we are working on improving:

  • Research thematic is not explored very well
  • Mid lane laning pattern involves mindlessly wave-clearing with W
  • Generalist damage output without meaningful utility means he must be balanced around simply doing more damage than anyone else

What I hope comes out of the update:

  • Establish strategic identity and purpose separate from competing champions (Artillery Casters & Damage Heavy Supports)
  • Up play research and geometry thematics
  • Maintain or improve damage fantasy, tied in better with his thematics
  • Keep existing combat pattern of poking + kitting, as well as all-in combo
  • Disintegration. A lot of Disintegration. With Lasers.

That's all for now. I'll be watching this thread for the next couple of days to get all of you guys' thoughts and comments, so please if any of you have major concerns or bad feels on the matter, don't hesitate to voice them out!

Best, BelugaWhale

335 Comments

Siachi2/21/2016, 1:18:01 AM32 votes

I agree with the general consensus that Vel'koz is pretty alright as-is. So what I have to talk about is a bit nitpicky at best, so feel free to burn me alive for my comments.

The only thing I can specifically think of, is that his W could be improved on a bit. As is, it's pretty much just there for waveclear and damage; while getting the second proc and comboing it with his E makes for pretty good play, I can't help but feel it could be better.

Also, could just be me, but I find it weird that everything else on his kit is a laser or artillery of some kind (Auto's are small lasers, Q lobs a projectile, E shoots a missile to the ground, ult is his ult), while his W is some Fissue ability that, from what I can see, just sort of comes out of the ground beneath Vel after he spins. It looks cool, don't get me wrong, but it's just not a laser.

MKRoland2/21/2016, 5:03:33 AM32 votes

I mained Vel'Koz for most of season 5 from mid plat up to mid d4 (about 500 games). In a perfect world Vel'Koz remains exactly the way he is now, his play pattern (HUGE wombos, godly kiting and teamfighting, very strong lane control, solid objective control, HIGHLY underrated poke and siege) is very enjoyable and satisfying. I understand that Riot have their own motivations for reworking champions and that's fine. It's true that his vulnerabilities (self-root ult, immobile, relatively low utility, etc.) make him a lower priority than other mages that perform similar functions, so I can see why the devs think he needs something to make him strategically advantageous over these alternative picks. In principle I like this idea, but I worry Riot are going to gut his waveclear (which is the key element of his kit that makes him even playable at higher levels, it's actually the key element of any mage's kit that makes them viable at higher levels, imagine any of these if they didn't have highly efficient waveclear: Viktor, Lux, Syndra, Ori, Ahri, etc.) and give him some cutesy gimmick W that offers highly situational damage. Overall though, the tone of this OP keeps me optimistic.

Aimless diatribe aside, there were a couple of troubling things mentioned in the OP about Vel'Koz's play pattern.

poor scaling

When purely considering his damage, this is simply untrue. While it is the case that Vel's ult and E AP ratios are relatively low, his Q's ratio is good and his W's is good when you get both hits, which will be happening consistently in teamfights, and with experience in skirmishes and 1v1's, when you get a WE or WQ the double proc of W plus the true damage PLUS the Thunderlord's proc actually does quite a lot of damage even to tanks late game. I say this purely from experience. What's more, Vel has very little trouble hitting the backline in teamfights with at least one tick of W and his ult if you save your abilities for the appropriate moments (a valuable skill on any teamfighting mage). True damage, TLD procs, magic penetration, and liandrys destroy the squishy backline. In principle and practice Vel does A LOT A LOT of damage in teamfights at all stages of the game. The only concession I can make is that he, like many other immobile mages, is vulnerable to divers with lots of hard CC (Nautilus, Malphite, Leona, Alistar, Zac, etc.) and assassins to varying degrees. And to that end, late enough in the game he can be "outscaled" by certain picks that take enormous advantage of his weaknesses if one isn't careful enough. In short, Vel's damage scales VERY well into the lategame, he can handle tanks with TLD procs, true damage, and Liandry's burn and his range and AOE along with skillfully placed Q's (not actually that hard to land, with experience) allow him to be a meaningful threat the the backline.

laning pattern involves mindlessly wave-clearing with W

This is not entirely true. With 15 AP from runes you can clear the the whole (non-cannon) wave with 2 W's with 3 points in W (level 5). It is possible to do so, but this requires one to walk up to the very edge of your melee creeps to get the perfect alignment, thereby allowing your lane opponent to push the wave and land harass on you simultaneously while on their end it is very easy to dodge Vel's W's if they aren't accompanied by an E or Q. Thus your lane opponent is more efficiently using their mana than you, and you will eventually get forced out of lane. If one opts to W the wave at a safe angle, 1 or 2 cs will usually not get hit by the W or only get hit by one tick of it, meaning that if one chooses to play as far away from the wave as possible and spam W's on it WITHOUT trying to trade with or harass the enemy laner then you will eventually go oom and accrue a cs deficit. So yes, it is possible to just spam the wave with W's and get enough gold to be relevant because of the high base damage on ult and true damage, but this is NOT the optimal way to lane with Vel and will not get you the most gold possible out of laning phase.

Vel's spells can and should be used aggressively in lane. The damage and slow from Q is very important in setting up WE's/EW's and can be done consistently with practice. It works like any ranged lane matchup, you shoot your spells and throw autos when they go to last hit. WE is an incredibly powerful trading tool (particularly now with the true damage and TLD proccing simultaneously). Because of Q's low mana cost, it isn't very risky to frequently look for Q's that set up WE's or just for lane poke: Q is a very valuable tool in lane.

In fact, Vel should only be using 2 W's on the wave when his opponent is hard shoving or he is very far behind (when one is too far behind to straight up fight in certain matchups, all one can do is double W the wave, I will concede this to the dev team). Vel has enough waveclear to make it SAFE to be aggressive in lane: he can waveclear defensively nullifying attempts of lane opponents to burn his farm under tower, thereby forcing them to consider leaving the wave up to deny cs by trading instead of shoving. In summary, there is much, much more depth to Vel's optimal laning pattern than just W'ing the wave twice after it appears.

Generalist damage output without meaningful utility means he must be balanced around simply doing more damage than anyone else

I somewhat addressed this above so I have less to say here. Vel'Koz does, A LOT, of damage, I really don't understand where this perception comes from that his damage is lackluster compared to his peers. From 250+ games around low diamond I can say this with high confidence. I will concede that his utility is relatively low, but again this is overblown. He has AOE CC in his E that knocks champs away (I cannot understate how strong this is in practice both in peeling for Vel himself and teammates as well as for making picks from fog, not to mention it's wombo setup in teamfights and synergy with other knockups [I know Vel E is suspension] like Sion ult/Q, Zac E, Malphite ult, etc.) and a highly spammable slow in Q that is near impossible to miss when kiting. Also when Vel ults from a favorable position in a favorable situation (enemy doesn't have any cooldowns that cancel his ult), the slow across the entire enemy team can be a very strong setup for your team. I don't think he has to be balanced by receiving more damage because I think he already dumps out insane amounts of damage and has quite a lot of CC.

And that's all I got. Very sorry for the ramble (upon reread, this has less focus than I originally intended), but hopefully I made some points worth considering. I think Vel is highly underrated damage-wise mid-late game, he feels very unique and fun to play, I don't think he needs to be changed in any way (but I am certainly open to concrete suggestions about gameplay and strategic niche changes, rather than design and thematic goals), and his laning phase (optimally played) is no where near as shallow as it seems is being perceived. Thanks for reading anyone that did.

Edit: Fixed some grammar, filled in some missing words, added and changed a few words and phrases to better clarify certain points.

Primarch Horus2/21/2016, 1:43:13 AM25 votes

Research thematic is not explored very well

Minigame incoming...

Mid lane laning pattern involves mindlessly wave-clearing with W

?

All Champs have some wave-clearing pattern, why is his a bad thing?

Besides, him trying to land some poke or E-started combo is part of his laning pattern, so, it's not like he just throws his W and nothing else.

Further - it's fun, trying to properly clear with his W.

Generalist damage output without meaningful utility means he must be balanced around simply doing more damage than anyone else

What does this mean? What is he supposed to do?

He has poke and a knockup; If he hits his E, his team and he can go in.

Again, how is this different to other Champions that have their own "If I hit X, I go in" patterns?

Thales2/21/2016, 1:05:44 AM21 votes

This sounds good. This pretty much matches my assessment of Vel'koz: great Q, great R, but insufficiently developed theme. I'm pretty interested in what the expanded "research thematic" will entail!

Inzight McQuiet2/21/2016, 2:42:16 AM11 votes

Mid lane laning pattern involves mindlessly wave-clearing with W

I dont agree with this. I have well over 1000 games with velkoz in diamond+ elo, i have been maining him since shortly after he was released. maxing Q first and poking with that as well as using the slow from the Q in lane to hit the full combo is perfectly valid and doesnt involve spamming W on the waves at all.

honestly i think velkoz is perfectly fine as he is except for the research theme not being used very well. the only change i would want to his kit is something like he gain X amount of something whenever he kills a champion, but making it moderate enough so that it doesnt make him crazy snowbally and also doesnt make him completely useless if he doesnt get a lot of kills.

the only thing i would want changed about his spells themselves, would possibly be a bit lower base damage in exchange for better AP scaling, but no mechanical changes at all. his kit as it is flows very well and feels very rewarding when used right

i also really hope you dont change his 3 hit passive, together with his ult his 3 hit spell passive that you can refresh but not stack with basic attacks was one of the reasons i started to love playing velkoz, it makes you constantly think of ways to combo your enemy to get your passive to pop and it makes him feel a lot more engaging for me to play than other mages where comboing usually dont matter as much as long as you hit whatever spell you are using

Adalore2/21/2016, 1:17:11 AM10 votes

I watch with bated breath...

Getting real scaling will be nice. Like right now the only option for Vel'koz's build is full "damage utility" after luden's for that additional "q" poke, with Rylias, cdr and oodles of pen.

Sublieme2/21/2016, 3:51:31 AM9 votes

This will be probably an unpopular opinion, but here are my two cents:

When I play vel'koz, I feel like I don't have a clear role: Do I need to poke them? Am I a combo mage so I combo all on a target and then I deal an extra dmg while using my ult? Is mi kit designed to do multiple iterations, so I build cdr and try to use my passive as much as I want?

The answer to all of them is yes, but it feels like I'm being a jack of all trades. I can't poke as well as the rest of the poke mages, I can't do multiple iterations of my spells without losing power, I can't be the most effective peeler without being a real threat... He isn't bad as a champ itself, but he doesn't fit thematically. He's not learning anything from his opponents, he isn't studying them. He's just killing them over and over, and that doesn't sound right to me when I read the lore.

In my opinion, he should be learning somehow about them, using the skills to be stronger or more reliable on those enemies he has studied through his skills, something that fits a monster who learns about others by causing pain. Something that isn't just a jack of all trades poke champion.

pieps2/25/2016, 7:54:00 PM9 votes

First of all i know im late to the party but i just have to give my input here be'KOZ vel is the one and only champ i play right now (since rumble has become useless/ or atleast unplayable for me - not willing to go for that jungle hype).

Why i play Vel'koz (Support/Mid): Vel'Koz for me is a Support Champ. While i also play Vel'koz on Midlane I noticed he is way more effective on support. YES i know its not the traditional support type but im just talking about his most consistent lane. Vel'koz has problems doing stuff on his own and Botlane is the only lane where you are not alone. Its true that his range is pretty awesome but not as awesome as the range of a Lux or a Xerath.

Things i love about Vel'Koz:

  • The damage. Theres always comeback-potential if you got a huge damage source on your team (even if its support).
  • The Q. Its a unique mechanic that got really awesome after the speed buff on the sub-balls.
  • All of his spells are Multi-Target/aoe
  • The Passive.
  • Its difficult to hit spells but the reward is high if u do
  • The Ultimate. Its unique and just awesome to cast.
  • Fun to Play even if you are behind.

Things i hate about Vel'koz:

  • When the ult cancels while u try to exhaust an enemy whos not in exhaust range (same with ignite)
  • Its not really a hate-thingy but there is a bug with his ulti where the ulti becomes castable right after u casted it (ult twice in a row). I failed to reproduce that bug but i think i still got a baronreplay recording somewhere. (happened to me twice)
  • When Vel'koz dies while casting w/e the Spell just disappears (like lux ulti was a lot of patches ago)
  • The W. Its slow and pretty awkward to cast. the explosion rate is a bit larger than the initial cast range which throws people off sometimes but u cant really surprise with that spell. Its pretty much only a tool to bring stacks on the enemy.
  • No Chance to stop an incoming assassin. There is no instant-hard-cc (like lux/xerath). You have to wait till the e hits. Only chance against assassins is to burst.
  • No Escape/Shield
  • Team Dependency. The reason i dont like vel that much on mid.
  • Why is his E a projectile and why is Cho'Gaths Q NOT a projectile? I dont get it... It should atleast have a MUCH larger cast range for it to be a projectile. Buffing E cast range seems like a good idea to me btw.
  • The Autoattacks sometimes get Canceled randomly (dont know if that actually happens but autoattacking doesnt feel right sometimes)
  • The Item Choices. ADs got so much items (and masteries) to choose from. They can even choose to take Thunderlord Mastery or Items like guinsoos. AP Champs just dont have that same kind of flexibility. Theres also lack of situational item choices.

Conclusion: I love the idea of a rework but im also really afraid of it. Vel'koz is the only champ im having fun playing right now (also got high hopes for ao shin btw.). I just hope that this update will make velkoz more responsive and more fun to play. I mentioned more negative aspects to velkoz than the positive stuff but i really love playing him and its kinda hard to explain why in detail.

Tearin True2/21/2016, 2:08:24 AM8 votes

If you are upping geometry and keeping ult laser you won me over.

That said have you thought about giving him a twisted fate mechanic where he could pick strange geometric skill shots with his q. For example maybe something that bounces off walls. It could do more damage the more bounces it does before hitting a champ.

Keep E

fishbeard2/21/2016, 3:50:28 AM7 votes

Seems on point. I'm a big Vel'Koz fan, so I'm staying cautiously optimistic. From this initial breakdown, it seems like his E and W might be getting some changes. Q and R are Koz's strong and unique spells, so as long as W and E can still be worked into some sort of rapid-fire combo to proc his passive once or twice, I'm fine with some changes to them.

I also agree that the mindless waveclear pattern with the current W is boring, but there are plenty of champions with that same issue.

Flaccid Gyarados2/21/2016, 7:32:30 AM6 votes

As an asian american, I approve with more geometry.

blackcat13003/13/2016, 10:53:35 PM5 votes

Why him over Swain and Karthus or Anirva.

Swain lost his anti-burst assassin identity Vel'koz is well Vel'koz the product of the void with a hunger for knowledge.

I don't Know what was wrong it just seamed like you guys wanted an easy filler champ to round out the group witch would not be Swain Karthus Anivia

KSHarrison2/21/2016, 2:26:50 AM5 votes

Honestly just feels like he does too little damage for how unreliable it is and how vulnerable Vel can be. I like the idea of building more on his passive.

Generalist damage output without meaningful utility means he must be balanced around simply doing more damage than anyone else

What does "utility" mean?

Range, waveclear, AoE, reliability, mobility, and survivability are all factors besides damage and CC that can be tuned to balance on a champion. In Vel's case, he has fantastic assets in range, S-tier waveclear and pure AoE. If that doesn't count as meaningful utility, then I feel like a major aspect of his power budget is being overlooked, and I have to wonder whether the logic that he can only be tuned on damage isn't overlooking other levers. For example, greater radius on his E or W, or lower delay before firing, could skyrocket and even break Vel's performance, as reliability is a real sore point for Vel'Koz.

MrBuffington2/21/2016, 1:00:02 AM4 votes

[slayer-pantheon-rainbows]

(Was just drooling since the rest of the team seems to be hopping on Boards to give previews of the updates. Thanks!)

Anyways, I wanted to ask if there are any preliminary ideas on upping the geometry aspect of his kit, and how his skill requirement may be affected by the changes.

The Reanimated2/21/2016, 7:41:35 AM4 votes

A while back, there were some changes added to the PBE concerning his Ult. It had significantly lower base damage with insane scaling ratios, along with an initially weaker slow that built up on champions the longer they remained within the beam. It was explained that the high base damage with low ratios were included on his release for the sake of a consistent experience between players, but it eventually felt less relevant and ultimately contradicted his thematic and gameplay identity. The ramping slow was meant to make it feel like the laser was really wearing down the enemies it focused on, theoretically like an actual alien-death-ray might. I got really excited for these changes, but they were dropped without any explanation of what didn’t work, at least from I could find, which was confusing and kind of frustrating after the intentions behind them were so well explained. While the better scaling damage on Life Form Disintegration Ray wouldn’t solve all his problems, I thought it was a step in a better direction for him. Vel’Koz is the type of character that you should expect to scale well. He’s all about consuming knowledge, and the smarter he gets the deadlier he gets. Considering the vulnerable state he puts himself in to use his ultimate, and the very nature of the ability, I feel like it should do scary damage come late-game, at least with a proper amount of researching early-on.

Here are the changes and comments from two years ago from RiotRepertoire:

http://boards.pbe.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/champions-gameplay-feedback/BvixoqhN-velkoz-changes-on-pbe

Flailmorpho3/7/2016, 1:39:32 AM4 votes

I've been thinking you can EASILY perform his research mechanic just by changing how his passive works, instead of the strange arbitrary "3 stacks is free true damage" you could have it that every 3 stacks you get against an enemy, you get a percent bonus damage against that enemy for the rest of the game. Basically the more familiar you are with an enemy champion the stronger you get, it would help vel'koz scale very strong into late game and also makes complete sense considering if he knows more about an enemy, the easier he can destroy him. It's easy counterplay would simply to have people he knows less about to tank his attacks and even go after him. This will also cause him to have alternate builds that focus towards utility/CDR such as rushing a unholy grail and crystal scepter early on to slow the enemy and get as many procs as possible

Take lt Easy3/31/2016, 5:29:55 AM4 votes

Vel Koz is one of my favorite champs because of his lore and his in game quotes. While I can agree with you on trying to make his research opponent. Find weakness. Exploit it. Needs to be able to be recognized more cause that's what he does, I can't agree with you on some of the other things you said. Honestly his w is kind of mindless wave clearing but much like other people are pointing out, many other champs have the same mindless wave clear. My biggest fear is you are going to take what's good about him and try to improve on it and make it worse. I really don't want a fiora incident with vel.

Kurou4/11/2016, 5:16:38 AM3 votes

Take this with a grain of salt. I believe Vel'Koz is fine the way he is, just buff him, not too much, not too little, and he will be in a good place Velkoz

Gaki no Tsukai3/6/2016, 11:30:26 PM3 votes

Hmmm more geometry sounds fun, but it also sounds like it could become pretty tedious. You aren't planning to make his kit unpredictable right? Like zaney Q's that go in multi directions or some weird stuff like that? Please for the love of all that is good in league, don't give velkoz some sort of geometry minigame, please :(

I'm hoping as for research, maybe as you use each spell on a target they updgrade over time, so it puts an emphasis on using and farming with Q over maxing W for wave clear. While we are on W, I really hope you guys leave it mostly the same, I really enjoy that .25s 2nd proc, it catches people offguard, and is really satisfying to hit for a kill, it feels just so rewarding to know you timed your W right to hit that 2nd proc, or it can be hilarious when someone accidentally walks back into your W.

I disagree heartily with the generalist damage statement. Velkoz has a very meaningful utility, his E is a very powerful hard CC when used correctly, and his Q is actually a great slow later game. Velkoz does so much damage, because he puts himself in on a knife edge of positioning, CC and ult at the wrong time, and your ass is grass. I think his damage and CC should be left untouched, it is what drives me to play velkoz. He is a long range glass cannon, you either land your spells and kill someone, or you most likely die.

I guess what I am most curious about though, is after this update, will I still be able to 1 shot people at level 6 with support velkoz? I can't think of any other champion that feels as rewarding to play as supp velkoz at level 6. You know that if you land all your spells, you will get the kill, but the question is, can you land all 4 spells? You know that if you are good with your skillshots, that lane is going to be your plaything, and that to me, is the best reward in all of league of legends, and why velkoz is my favorite champion. IMO he is the only champ in the game that you HAVE to land all your skillshots with, unless of course you're 10/2 and rampaging across their whole team! Hehehe.

Lyst4/9/2016, 9:51:10 AM3 votes

Just want to remind you that adding more scaling damage will come at the cost of his high base damage, which will completely destroy Vel'koz support, which is almost 40% of the Vel'koz playerbase.

Also I stick to my opinion that there is absolutely no need to change Vel'koz, apparently he does have a "strategic reason" over other champions, since he was picked by Pepii, Alex Ich, Bjergsen and Faker in the past few weeks. The "knowledge through disintegration" identity is actually covered by his passive: if he procs 3 stacks (read gained enough knowledge) he will do true damage (read gained knowledge about the weaknesses of the champ and get past the armor/magic resist). Removing the wave clear from mages in general will only reduce their viability even more. Also no meaningful utility is proven wrong by the fact that 40% plays him as support, including me, AOE knockup and 70% slow is enough to stop any form of gank/hard engage. The only reason Vel'koz is in this update, is because Riot insists on doing a themed update and are looking for reasons to change champions, while no one ever complained about Vel'koz.

Shadowed Fate2/21/2016, 2:39:45 AM1 votes

Velkoz Really have high hopes that he still feels as satisfying to play after the update while also tying him in further with his identity. Wrote this up a few weeks ago, but didn't get much feedback on it as it got buried in the deluge of posts, wondering if I'm on the right track for the sort of thing you're looking for: http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/FsRaMfEe-rd-research-and-disintegration-a-velkoz-rework-proposition