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Quick Gameplay Thoughts: May 9

RiotMeddler·5/9/2018, 3:50:40 PM·1 votes·44,905 views

Hey all,

Usual Disclaimers

These posts will often contain talk about future work we're doing, or planning to do, that isn't yet guaranteed to ship. The nature of the work could change or, depending on what we discover, projects mentioned may get put delayed or even stopped. If you'd like to see a Tweet whenever a new one of these posts goes up: https://twitter.com/RiotMeddler

Impact of the 8.9 mana changes

We've been watching the impact of the 8.9 mana changes (mages and some items) over the past week. So far the effect on most champions seems to be power neutral, which was our target (more casts early, fewer later, same overall strength). There are a group of a few mages who look like an exception to that though. They're all champs who are able to burn a lot of mana repeatedly and do seem to have lost a noticeable amount of power (Anivia, Cass, Taliyah, Malz). Might need to put some power back into them as a result, still assessing. If so it would likely not be as more access to mana later in the game though since one of our other goals was to reduce the power of mage waveclear as well.

Some thoughts on supports

After the midseason changes (8.11) and some followup (8.12 at least) some of the things we'll be looking at are various things about the support position. Not sure exactly what will ship or when yet, but did want to run you folks through a list of things we'll likely be looking at and why.

Heal/Shield Stat:

  • Was introduced back when supports got less gold. Also contributes a lot of power through multiplication of base stats, rather than as a separate ratio like AP, making it hard to tune it properly for a variety of different cases. Will be considering things like whether it's undercosted, whether it should be a stat that can be tuned on an ability by ability basis, which items should offer it etc.

Reliability of defensive tools:

  • A lot of the time defensive tools, particularly those on Lulu and Janna, are significantly more reliable/forgiving than offensive tools used against their team. We'll be looking at whether more risk/skill expression should be added to particular effects as a result. That could mean things like shorter shield durations or other timing demands (e.g. like Redemption), adding more contextual demands to some abilities (e.g. % missing effects or bonuses just after an ally has been damaged) or other approaches.

Item Efficiency:

  • This one's similar to the Heal/Shield stat stuff above, but also applies to a wider range of classes who play as support. We've got a range of items at significantly cheaper than average price points because support income's been low historically. Some of those at least might need to be repriced to account for increased support income.

Those three categories are where we'll likely start. There are a couple of other spaces we'll also consider, though aren't as likely to ship changes in in the shorter term at least. They're being treated as secondary areas because they've either got less clear directions and/or the time versus benefit ratio on work there doesn't look as promising as the above issues:

  • Introducing more variability into support gold/XP income (valuable, but a large and tricky task, could involve enabling/rewarding roaming play more, though that brings some other issues with it due to impact on other lanes)

  • Reducing the amount of power supports give to others (solves some issues, particularly around removal of marksmen weaknesses, but also cuts pretty hard into support differentiation from other positions and enchanter/warden identity)

Upcoming Post: True Damage

Been seeing quite a bit of discussion around increasing use of True Damage, given both Conqueror and IE have made it more accessible to a range of champions. Thoughts on why that approach, in particular why we think it's better than the alternatives, soon (probably early next week).

http://ddragon.leagueoflegends.com/cdn/6.24.1/img/champion/Ziggs.png

291 Comments

armatsu5/9/2018, 4:01:52 PM18 votes

sorry but... WHAT ABOUT ZYRA?!?

Tell Tale Heart5/9/2018, 4:08:44 PM16 votes

There was a thread about Zyra, which popped off at boards yesterday. Is there anything you can say about her?

meteorbreaker5/9/2018, 4:01:44 PM12 votes

Hello Meddler!

What are your plans for Zyra? Will she be able to back to the mid lane? Many Zyra’s mains tired of the fact that all changes are about her second role, you do not say anything about her primary role. Please change your priorities this time.

Ty for attention ;)

Spideraxe5/9/2018, 3:54:25 PM11 votes

Hey meddler can you share the context behind the Minion Dematerializer changes since I thought you guys wanted to opt for like a mind control model

Wukong Airways5/9/2018, 6:12:55 PM9 votes

@Meddler, a Wukong post was made last month, and RiotRepertoir confirmed that Wukong is on a list of Champions that might receive a mini-rework similar to XinZhao's.

Can we get an idea of what are the champs in that list, and if Wukong is currently being worked on or has high priority compared to others?

InTheory5/9/2018, 4:11:09 PM9 votes

I feel like you're throwing around the runes even more and don't really stay to the original design of each tree. I don't really understand why you're not keeping that constant.

Edit: To be more specific

#Precision

Improved attacks and sustained damage This is for auto attack based champions / playstyles.

#Domination

Burst damage and target access This is for quickly killing targets and closing distance to them.

Absolute Focus should be in here, just fitting perfectly with the rest of “add increased damage” runes.

#Sorcery

Empowered abilities and resource management This is not only for mages but spell slingers in general.

Even after the changes Presence of Mind stays an (ultimate) ability focused rune that also revolves around resource management.

I count item actives as abilities so Ingenious Hunter should be here for playstyles that focus on active item heavy builds.

Ultimate Hat should definitely not be moved away from Sorcery since that ultimately revolves around abilities.

#Resolve

Durability and crowd control This is for being harder to kill and improving CC.

Fleet footwork and Overheal are both defensive focused runes that should encourage carries to opt into resolve secondary if they want that save pass into late game. There’s not reason why Nullyfying Orb is not in the same tree as Bone Plating and Conditioning. Legend: Tenacity could be also here, but not necessarily. (Celestial Body was also not in this tree before it was removed. )

#Inspiration

Creative tools and rule bending Basically the rest.

Waterwaling is a very situational rune and I don’t see a reason why this specific one should be tied to someone who’s throwing spells. It’s just arbitrary and should instead be pulled into this tree.

C9 Squeeky 5/9/2018, 4:06:17 PM9 votes

Hey Meddler, I have a few things I'd like to ask.

  1. What are your thoughts gameplay health of item 3060 ? Doesn't it seem unhealthy for an item to make a minion completely immune to one type of damage, when that damage usually requires mana (with some exceptions like Kaisa Corki AAs, etc)? Usually built on toplane Tanks but even Mid Sion Karma build it to keep their opponent in lane from applying pressure on the map.

  2. Any systemic changes to Boots itemization?

  3. Do you think item 3004 item 3042 needs its stats readjusted or redesigned? Only Ezreal (and to a lesser extent Jayce ) builds this item, I can't help but feel like Ezreal has the "Duskblade" problem.

  4. Will we see more removed items make a return, or perhaps alternative versions of them (including items from Rotating Game Modes)? Do you ever use them as inspirations for new items?

World Ender5/9/2018, 3:55:49 PM8 votes

Hey Meddler, could you give any insight into the broad direction of the new fighter item that is in testing? What's its purpose intended to be as opposed to the other fighter items right now like Sterak's, Black Cleaver, Titanic Hydra, etc?

Coronet5/9/2018, 4:12:04 PM7 votes

Talking about Malz Malzahar, any chance to make him less reliant on his W and put more power to the rest of the kit?

He is entirely dependent on his voidlings for farming and fighting, but has little agency over them, except when to release them.

Thanks.

Penta Ace5/9/2018, 4:10:35 PM7 votes

I think it was mentioned that you guys were looking into making Zyra plants feel better since they seem to get one-shot so easily. Any news on that?

xXxR1PH4R4MB3xXx5/9/2018, 5:19:10 PM7 votes

Thoughts on adding an AD supp item, or changing frostfang to adaptive stats? Feels like it's keeping some fun choices locked out of playing support because of FF line switching your adaptive stats on runes to AP, which feels really bad for BC supports who can't get the sorc+absfocus AD until full cleaver complete.

Rocoman5/9/2018, 4:39:05 PM5 votes

Rumble got a bit of love in 8.7, but overall it didn't help him too much. Any plans to take another look at him?

IxtaliKing5/9/2018, 4:55:26 PM5 votes

That could mean things like shorter shield durations or other timing demands (e.g. like Redemption), adding more contextual demands to some abilities (e.g. % missing effects or bonuses just after an ally has been damaged) or other approaches.

I like this. Would be nice to see more variation between shields beyond their secondary effects.

Now that we're finally on the topic of Enchanters, are you still planning to do work on Karma? I think missing HP or large rapidly decaying shields would suit her perfectly...

TheSingularity5/9/2018, 10:29:12 PM4 votes

Hi Meddler

With the marksman changes. What are your thoughts on phantom dancer? More specifically the passive "lament"? At this point only one champion buys this item and I feel it's purely for this passive, as previously Yasuo built item 3087 first in most cases. And once he does have it, it feels like the lane is lost because the damage reduction is simply too strong, especially when paired with item 3047 which makes the few champions that can out duel him early, 100% irrelevant And of course, it feels really cheap to lose to such a silly and low cost stat check. You don't get outplayed, the enemy isn't ahead. They simply bought an item so obscenely perfect for their champion that it instantly wins them lane in almost every case.

Snowbrand5/9/2018, 4:17:24 PM4 votes

What's your thoughts and plans for the less used keystones like lethal tempo, dark harvest and glacial augment mostly?

I feel like lethal tempo is a pretty cool rune, but even after the buffs it is underperforming and only used on a couple of champs. Any plans to rework it or change it or do you think it only need buffs to get viable for some more champs that use a lot of AS and aa so that it can compete with PtA and FF?

What about dark harvest? Do you think it is in a good state or is there plans to change, delete or buff it?

Thoughts on glacial augument?

With the new keystone hail of blade, is there any plans to add another keystone to sorcery, resolve and inspiration too?

ModThe Djinn5/9/2018, 4:30:16 PM4 votes

{quoted}Been seeing quite a bit of discussion around increasing use of True Damage, given both Conqueror and IE have made it more accessible to a range of champions. Thoughts on why that approach, in particular why we think it's better than the alternatives, soon [probably early next week].

I'm looking forward to this.

My guess is that it's the following:

  • It's great way to buff characters against a certain class of characters (durable and/or defense-rushing champions) while not overpowering them in general or entirely invalidating item purchases (which % penetration does to armor in a way true damage does not do to health).
  • It enables characters to stick damage even on enemies who get an edge and build into unkillable bricks.
  • It is a nice tuning lever as it's a percentage conversion of net damage.
  • It feels satisfying and powerful.
  • It limits objective damage output in a way that crit or bonus damage doesn't.
  • It scales over time rather than coming online as proportionally stronger, which flat AD or AP might.
  • It has poor synergy with existing mechanics like armor reduction, making it less dangerous in the hands of assassins or characters with good defense shredding, which the corresponding amount of simple bonus damage would actually enhance greatly.
  • It encourages actively thinking about build diversity rather than just mindlessly building armor or magic resistance.

I see all of those as benefits to splashing in true damage here and there, but am curious to see which ones you're focusing on.

JabaTheHat5/9/2018, 7:55:26 PM3 votes

Since we're talking about nerfing Supports, it will inevitably affect Assassins I have two concerns. The numbers balance I'm sure you guys can easily fix, even if the new items are a problem. But I have two fundamental concerns about assassins design that I would really like to hear your opinion on

  1. The effectiveness of Assassin is too tied to the presence of peeling supports --- namely Janna and Lulu. It fees like, at least in solo queue --- if Janna/Lulu are in the game, then you're useless, especially in teamfights. If they're not, then you're OP and can easily have a huge positive impact on the game by running around ganking and killing people. Do you agree that this dichotomy exists and is a problem? Right now to me, I think generally speaking Assassins are already slightly OP in solo queue. But if they get HARD countered by those peeling supports. So it's so hard to balance them accordingly because the "ON" switch is always there to make them useless, almost regardless of how high their numbers are. I guess you guys are nerfing the reliability of those two champs so they're less good at peeling. But this would result in Assassins being way too overpowered. Keep in mid they're also getting new AD items on top of this support nerf and they're ALREADY doing pretty well.

  2. How you can buff assassins enough for pros to pick them up without ruining solo queue? Pros are risk averse and new-strat averse. It took them ages to find that the pubstomping Malzarhar during worlds last year wasn't only good for pubstomping. He was insanely powerful for pro games as well. I'm afraid something similar might happen again --- even when assassins are buffed to be strong like Malz was, it would take too long before the pros can overcome their inertia to abandon old/safe strats. Meanwhile said champs completely devastate solo queue.

I think the directions we're going for is good for seeing Assassins in pro games. But it's going to negatively affect solo queue ALOT by making them overpowered. Do you guys agree what this is a major concern? Will you guys do something?

iVesha5/9/2018, 4:00:37 PM3 votes

When will be teased new champion ?

Archlord Aatrox5/9/2018, 5:11:33 PM3 votes

Any news about the small scope work on Karma? Will that be mid-season or post mid-season?

PokladnicaZla5/9/2018, 5:40:00 PM3 votes

PLEASE

If you're looking at support and H&S power,could you please;

  1. Rename it to something shorter ( Grace ,Benevoelence ... )
  2. Give it's own category in the shop
  3. UPDATE Healing and Shielding ability tooltips so we know by how much H&Sp has increased our ability ( colour could pink or light green-blue ).
    -> last one is the most important.

Also, I have read on Reddit that H&Sp increases the base+scaling. Is that true? If it is,we really need H&Sp as a scaling in ability tooltips.

Ik Im late to the discussion,but please if you could leave a reply that you atleast saw the comment.It would mean a lot.

Bojack Stankweed5/9/2018, 6:07:51 PM3 votes

I'm kind of confused about how ziggs balancing is being handled. Before this last recent E buff, his W was pretty substantially buffed to the point where you skill it second for the massive CDR it gets. My concern is that the E buff he just received also requires an E max for the buffs to be noticed, and it is nowhere near as strong as w max even still, so essentially this buff really does nothing (small base damage increases are not noticeable on a late game Ziggs' E that already deals massive damage by that point.) Mana wise Ziggs recently got hit very hard by the manaflow change and the presence of mind rework, and I believe that the midlane mana changes also hurt him as well. Additionally, he ranks below almost all of the mid laners that you mentioned above who might be needing buffs because they were too damaged by the recent changes. I understand that ziggs can be a serious problem and very oppressive when he has too much access to mana or enough damage to fast clear waves, but when these strengths are being taken away the non-toxic aspects of his kit are not being compensated. What I'm trying to say by this is that Ziggs cannot effectively trade with anyone in lane early game because of how hard these recent changes are hitting the entirety of his kit. I think that Riot should seriously tune down Ziggs' late game in exchange for some more early game trading power - maybe extra ability damage to champions in exchange for nerfed ability damage to minions, or mana refunds for landing abilities on champions to encourage that type of playstyle. It seems really strange that on Ziggs i can throw 5 Q's and land them all on a Zoe, and she can in return put me to sleep once and land a big Q to instantly out-trade me and have double my mana. Thanks so much for reading, and I really appreciate any response in advance, sorry if I came across a little harshly or biased, being a Ziggs main myself.

SirPurrr5/9/2018, 6:24:44 PM3 votes

The Ziggs buff was nice but tbh, I tried him a lot and he's probably just too situational. He's pretty good into tanky comps because he can CC them or slow them down with E and poke them out. However, tanks are really not that meta anymore and facing stuff like Kassadin, Fizz, Ahri, Kat, LB, Talon, Zed etc. is just hellish and he feels so team dependent to be viable. I have to tell them to let me poke and then even when they let me, enemies dodge nearly every Q or it hits the one random tank. It feels really hard to carry on him. I'd much rather his W did less damage to turrets if it had a higher AP ratio.

I'm not even sure if damage is the primary problem though. I die very easily to ganks or any kind of flank. If I'm protected perfectly... let's say we have a Mao top, Taric support and Nunu JG, then Ziggs does pretty well. He sieges great, his damage is good if people lockdown targets and he survives in this sort of comp. Most times though, the games get snowballed really early by roams, ganks, random lanes etc. and even when I take a turret on Ziggs, it doesn't seem as impactful. After all, turrets are so easy to take by APs now that even when I back my enemy is pretty scary left with a turret.

Basically, I just feel that Ziggs is still too vulnerable and unreliable. His winrate is 50% so it's not like he's unviable. He's basically at the same level as Lux pre-buffs. I just think he needs a bit more defense. I even tried RoA but it was just too pathetic early on to justify and not that good in a full build either. If Ziggs had just a tiny bit more HP early, it would already help and let him be more of a lane bully. Right now he bullies quite a few lanes but doesn't get kills. Alternatively, he can have a better late game, for example more AP scaling on W so that he can comeback from these snowballed games or make more plays. Ziggs mains are just not doing so well even with thousands of games on him. The few Ziggs mains I know are stuck in low Diamond.

Obviously, if Ziggs does have a few comps. where he's a good pick but 90% of the time he's mediocre or bad, buffing him might make the good situations too much. Ziggs seems like a generalist champion on paper but he's really not at all. He's very tricky to play well, very vulnerable, can't be as impactful vs many picks even if he can still farm etc. He is good in teamfights but if you're a Ziggs main and your whole plan is just to do well at 15-30 minutes, you're sacrificing a lot of the edge other champs can give. You pick Talon or even Quinn mid, you carry early hard and roam all over bringing the pressure with you. In teamfights you're not as good as a well protected Ziggs but you'll probably find your entry point or split. For Ziggs to only have significant influence in the game at 15+ minutes means that it's really hard to carry hard as a a Ziggs main... this is despite the fact that he pokes pretty hard early. Maybe it's a bit because when he pokes it's 95% because he's hitting minions and the enemy champion at the same time. He thus ends up pushing the wave for pressure but also overextending at the same time. Thus, Vi comes and Q-Rs and Fizz throws a Shark right after. Backfired.

I'm rambling a bit much but basically I think too much power is in his turret execute and most of the time it's an overkill ability. By this I mean that you take turrets when your team's near anyway and you basically save 2 seconds or in fact shouldn't even use W in case you get engaged on. The rest of the time, it can give a lane advantage but usually I'd have had FB turret regardless of it being as strong as it is. Plus, even champions like Diana, Akali etc. aren't that slow at taking turrets now. I die once or twice, it's probably a lost turret. If turrets had 25% more HP and there was more of a late game not just a snowball (probably due to matchmaking as much as anything), Ziggs W would matter much more.

Now, because turrets are so weak especially with Baron and Rift it just feels hopeless from behind. They walk into your base with empowered minions and you can't even fight them because the minions make you autolose teamfights. You just sit there and wait while crying. :D Then they get 2+ inhibitors and you can't do anything yet again. Even when you're the better player and not tilting, it doesn't matter. Patiently trying to catch up, look for mistakes and farm doesn't matter when they show up with the baron minions and you have down inhibs. Maybe that's why I enjoyed s4 so much more. It felt like any game was winnable but not that it was unfair if throwing a lead either. Now it feels like a foregone conclusion way earlier. The catchup XP in the JG just felt unfair when having a lead... it felt like the game was punishing you for being good. I don't want something like that.

fromis chaeyoung5/9/2018, 4:08:13 PM2 votes

Enchanters are not the problem. Enchanters should be the kind of playstyle you should be encouraging in a Support role. The problem is Mages being played as Supports.

AMYS GRAVE5/9/2018, 5:07:53 PM2 votes

e.g. % missing effects or bonuses just after an ally has been damaged

Shouldn't supports get bonuses for applying shields just before an ally is damaged?

limebuster5/9/2018, 3:59:53 PM2 votes

How have the lux changes hit? 😃

MLSword5/9/2018, 4:04:51 PM2 votes

What about other melee champions who take fleet footwork? I remember from some comment before they said you guys were looking into maybe splitting footwork into ranged/melee differences, as its pretty nice on a couple melee champs (Rengar top is amazing with fleet/Dekar build) and the nerfs on PBE would probably kill it being taken on them.

Linna Excel5/9/2018, 4:09:29 PM2 votes

I take it the support changes are going to be aimed at traditional supports and not tanks or mages in bot, correct?

BTW, have you guys ever considered something like a tear or RoA for supports: something that gains power over time or as you cast stuff?