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Patch Chat with the Playtest Team - Patch 7.12

RiotRiot King Cobra·6/14/2017, 10:55:17 PM·1 votes·19,476 views

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Hey, everyone! I'm Riot King Cobra and it's time for another round of Patch Chat! These threads serve as opportunity for us to talk about the patches that come out every two weeks. You can find the most recent patch by following this link: Patch 7.12 Notes.

I'm on Riot's Playtest Team, a group of high elo players who play with the new champions, reworks, balance tweaks, items, and map updates before they are released. It's our job to the test the changes that our designers come up with and ensure that we're introducing positive changes to League in terms of both balance and fun. Ask us questions - we'll try to answer as many as we can!

Patch 7.12 features buffs to Camille, Corki, Jax, Jhin, Kindred, and Rek'Sai. Additionally, we made a number of adjustments to champions that seemed to be overperforming a bit like Zac, Rumble, Ivern, and Malzahar. We also preemptively toned down Karma's shield values due to her crazy synergy with the updated support items that debut with this patch.

All of us on the Playtest Team are avid gamers so feel free to talk to us as fellow LoL players!

Ben “Cezium” Burkhardt Don “Aesah” Ding Dan “penguin” Hardison Robert “ROBERTxLEE” Lee Rob "King Cobra" Rosa Nicholas “Nickwu” Smith Blake “S0be” Soberanis Trevor “ThEntropist” Thernes Arnor "Hjarta" Halldorsson Brian "Madness Heroo" Pressoir

131 Comments

FF Sade6/15/2017, 4:13:56 PM6 votes

Hi, Rumble 1trick here. He’s a champion that I’ve mained since season 1 pre-level 30. He’s an extremely fun champion with a unique kit, great damage, and some type of versatility. First of all, I do agree that Rumble has grounds to be nerfed. His lane presence is rather overwhelming and there aren’t many optimal ways to get in on him, unless you have great mobility (to avoid the ult and close the gap) or great ranged burst. But I feel that with the changes of 7.12, a decent chunk of Rumble’s identity has been lost.

**Low CDs and micro-managing them helped identify him- ** He’s a crazy mechanized menace who goes overboard on what he needs to do, at which point he overheats. Not many champions imitate that style, especially since he operates on heat rather than mana. He was that champion that, if you first picked him up, you’d button mash until your mech malfunctions and you accidentally scrap shield overheat when the enemy champion gets away with 1HP. And then once you got used to him, you’d be able to tactically abuse his overheat. But you’d still overheat. And the constant button pressing, micro-managing the key presses,... It felt you were commanding a janky ass robot and fiddling with all your buttons and levers and contraptions. It felt like you were playing as him.

The flamespitter CD changes don’t agree with that. Charging your flamespitter provided a bit of uniqueness to him, as you’d already be playing your champion before the 1 minute mark hits. It’s like getting your charges level 1 w/ incinerate as Annie (at least in much earlier seasons, since nowadays it’s mostly Q start). It’s an incredibly basic champion-specific technique, but small things like that reward the player with at least a little satisfaction of personal mastery. And it also helps establish, “Well hey, this is my kit. This is my passive. This is what you’re going to deal with for the rest of the game.” And ofc, it was a strong introduction to lane. You had more choices. If you want, you could push lane to get your level 2, at risk of being level 3 ganked by a jungler. Or keep it even. Current Rumble gives very little option. Unless you’re vs. a passive champion, he’ll be forced to be pushed to his tower regardless of whether or not he starts Q, W, or E. This is a huge crutch- not just for Rumble the “lane bully”, but also for the ally jungler. 2v1s in the jungle have always been a legitimate strat vs. him since Rumble’s noticeable power spike happens at level 4. But this hurts even moreso. (Also on another note, that is a huge nerf to jungle Rumble as well- He CAN still jungle, but why should you jungle him now?)

Rumble has always been a lane bully and a mid-game monster. The current build seems to compensate his nerfed early game into upping the damage in mid-late (though ofc, because it’s harder to snowball as him early now, damage may actually be less). I believe his identity was moreso of the lane bully side, as well as a relatively safe pick. Renekton and Riven matchups could go either way, and he could deal with (most) top lane champions. As a consequence, early game shut downs could mess him up entirely, vs. gap closer and/or high bursters like Irelia, Renekton, Riven, Jayce, Fiora, Kled. At which that point, he’ll mainly be using his ultimate to stay in the game. So there was a bit of a risk. If his damage was nerfed, I wouldn’t see much of a problem because he can still micromanage himself to deal with other lane bullies. But, right now as I see it, current build hinders his early game a bit too much for him to get control of the lane.

This is such a QQ post and I’m sorry for it, but I just feel like maybe more damage nerfs, or an extension on his self-silence/overheat, or perhaps removing the scaled AP on his overheat auto after the first hit (making overheat a VERY tactical choice, using overheat as a last hit type of thing),... IDK, just spitballing ideas here. Balancing Rumble without losing his identity as the lane bully/mechanized menace that we know him as!

Jar Jar binks l6/14/2017, 11:27:30 PM6 votes

Is Volibear also considered to get a small Update like Reksai or Kindred?

he is been bad for too long, hence I dont see him as a Jaggernaut currently. he doesnt have the dmg for a Jaggernaut, he is more like a diver. And a really bad Diver

Qiyana is SO HOT6/15/2017, 12:19:02 AM5 votes

What are your thoughts on item 3812 ? The general consensus is that the item is busted and is turning champs that should be squishy into almost pseudo tanks/bruisers due to the 30% damage reduction. Is it something you guys have talked about at all for nerfs? I heard it was on you guys radar before but its stopped being talked about.

Overlord Forte6/14/2017, 11:20:29 PM5 votes

I'm still not sure what purpose Camille serves in top lane that isn't a strictly inferior Irelia. Her dueling window (if initiated by her leap) out lasts her own CC to proc her Q's 2nd tier of damage, allowing the enemy plenty of time to retaliate. In theory her W helps to kite back or zone control, but there's enough short range dashes/abilities that she can still get picked up and damage applied to. If we flip it around and she saves her leap until half way into combat, she's suspectible to getting CC'd and out damaged before her own CC is relevant.

Pretty much anything that has the idea of damage in it that isn't a top lane tank steps on her quite firmly, which stops her from being anything but an R-suicide button in the mid game.

FlashnFuse6/15/2017, 1:26:11 AM4 votes

How does the playtest team feel about Quinn?

TheMeta886/14/2017, 11:02:35 PM3 votes

It is the opinion of many avid Kindred fans, Meddler, Wav3break, and I that Kindred was under-tuned in 7.11. To me, under-tuned is honestly a gross understatement but I digress.

The 7.12 buffs are undoubtedly a step in the right direction. But does the playtest team think Kindred needs more in the future?

TaciturnTenacity6/15/2017, 3:21:23 AM3 votes

I have a mastery score with Rumble of about 170,000. I've played roughly 500 games with him and I feel Im qualified to comment on his new state. Regarding his changes this patch, I can understand the intention but the execution of said intention has many oversights that arent noticeable to anyone who doesnt live and breathe the champ. Last I heard on PBE these were the extreme changes but the numbers were supposed to be made less severe. To my knowledge these numbers are unchanged from the initial PBE offering. The changes to heat decay are butchery at best. He isn't just nerfed in lane, this affects him negatively at every point in the game. He casts a lot less spells as a whole now. There is this horrible idle time where you're waiting for heat to decay and you're not doing anything, that wasn't present before. It's not just the front loaded decay but the ending rate of his heat used to be twice as fast. Yes you'd have to micro more but it was also more opportunities for damage, plays, etc. Technicalities aside, spamming a bunch of spells and micro'ing his heat is what makes Rumble fun imo. The small buffs to his spells damage dont get close to mitigating the heat decay nerf. I'd gladly trade the new 10% ap on q for the old heat decay system back. The heat change makes no sense to me or any Rumble main ive talked to. It feels so tacked on and negligibly calculated. I want to know why you guys deemed it so necessary.

Sure theoretically his heat is easier to manage for newer players but the skill ceiling and play potential is lowered as well. Its not just the cooldown increase. Rumble's heat is like energy for ninjas. With the lowered decay you essentially increased his Q cooldown, you increased his energy cost , and you reduced its damage to minions. That's a triple nerf! Less spells due to a virtual energy cost over a long timeline means less dps. I feel like there's this misconception among you guys that because Q reverts back to a 6 second cd at level 9 that all is right with him afterward. No! There's such a thing as opportunity cost, its not the same at all. Small things like removing the 5 tick decay also severely affects his most precise trades. Heat Zone 55-75 is pretty important when you're pre planning an overheat all in. That precision is now gone and it separated the good Rumbles from the great ones. Also you hit Rumble indirectly this patch with the nerfs to dorans shield not to mention Adaptive helm which is specifically used to counter him. And then you buff the assassins that prey on him like Camille and leave Galio and Gragas' waveclear with only a small slap on the wrist? You guys are taking a slow, iterative, and correct process with Galio/Gragas and dorans ring but why such a ham handed and drastic change on a champion like Rumble who isnt even that oppressive or popular? He's not even doing that great in competitive though he does see regular play.

This isnt even a "Oh woe is me, they nerfed my main champion" post. I've been a Rumble main since Season 3 and I've never been so personally offended by a change to him. Every Rumble change was manageable but this heat one. Even though his damage and ult cooldowns were altered in previous patches he maintained his essence because the heat mechanic was unchanged. You could still do Rumble things even if your damage was lacking. You've not only made him weaker but you've robbed him of his identity. He's not supposed to be an easy champ to play. Why are you guys trying to make him so with the heat decay changes? Who's going to want to pick up a champion who gets outpushed by all the dorans ring tanks and outdueled by the assassins? I think you're going to achieve the opposite of what you want. Most newer players will find it too difficult to play him because of his now very poor laning and him still having his former vulnerability to ganks/dives. When someone starts to play top I always recommend Renekton because he has a large margin of error. He's a good example of a beginner friendly champ. By substantially reducing Rumble's margin of error you've made him more frustrating for beginners. Not only that but you've managed to annoy all us Rumble vets who tick his heat by memory. Memory that's only established over tons of Rumble games. By the patch description you guys make it seem he has no weaknesses in lane and trades with impunity. He is by definition a lane bully, they're supposed to trade favorably. I think of him like an AP version of Darius. His old pushing power was a double edged sword that made him more susceptible to ganks. He has a lot of answers in today's top meta. Im confused by the desperation of the changes as if he were this unrivaled monster of top lane. That i can see, his win rate is at a cool 48%. Hardly what I'd consider relentless.

One can argue he's too oppressive in lane under controlled circumstances but he was not without weakness or counterplay. If you feel compelled to dial back his greatest strengths, nerf his laning and only that. The heat decay nerf is a multidimensional nerf that is present the whole game and I dont think you guys are fully taking into account how it changes Rumble's dynamics completely and for the worst. To a lot of us, the constant micro of heat and spamming of spells is what makes the champ such a blast to play. Please don't remove the aspects that drew his fans to him the most. If you insist on removing him from competitive viability at least have the courtesy to keep what made him fun intact. Thank you.

Lord Desert6/15/2017, 12:30:43 AM2 votes

What do you guys think about ChoGath? What could you need? Or what his biggest problems are?

Fine Ionian Silk6/15/2017, 12:32:12 AM2 votes

What do you guys think about the new item 3050 ? Is it fun to use, and what supports do you think work best with it?

Merbstrom6/15/2017, 12:50:04 AM2 votes

With the locket and redemption changes, it seems because of the split scaling (hp and heal%) these are meant to be exclusive. This seems like a nerf to tank supports since redemption is less viable without continued investment, and locket while at cast is greater because of both the full decay, and the required health scaling, it will probably block less damage for the entire team. Sure the shield will be decent with stoneplate, but that's a lot of gold to wait on for a tank support. Are you counting on zeke's to pick up the slack? Honestly looks like a decent nerf to tank supports overall. Is there any internal data to that should negate my worries?

Dethflash6/15/2017, 12:57:46 AM2 votes

With Locket changes do you see a Chogath + item 3193 being a problem? I easily get over 15,000 health when i play chogath most of my games, so if i use locket while i have active around 3 enemy champions i could give my team a 4000 shield, thats more than a lot of champions health bars doesnt that seem a little strong?

Bycharo6/15/2017, 1:08:31 AM2 votes

Zed is weak right now and he gets outscaled by almost everyone on midlane. everyone knows that zed should play so passive on early game and do some w e q combos . i would like the combo to be more rewarded because using your w for trades is so risky bc u sacrifice your only source escape for trades and hitting both q'es is so hard and its very ez to dodge and even if you hit them it will not do so much damage if there are minions nearby. so the reward for hitting skillshots is not worth because u just you will loose the trade sometimes and make yourself very vulnerable for ganks. the solution is very simple " if you hit both q es on enemy champion it will refund %of its cooldown "

i hope u guys reply and sorry for my poor english

OceanicEyes6/14/2017, 11:04:34 PM2 votes

Hey there!

Quick question on new item 3190 , what are your thoughts on the potential item 3193 + team wide shields, particularly with health stacking tanks?

PhantomThief14126/15/2017, 4:28:19 AM2 votes

I am really excited about the missions but currently there are no missions xD

Spideraxe6/14/2017, 11:56:40 PM2 votes

How do you guys feel about the Rek'Sai and Kindred buffs after the reworks, do you think they were necessary or do you feel players needed to relearn then

QuickSaveTV6/15/2017, 1:22:45 AM1 votes

I was really curious to ask, whether or not Jinx will get some love and specifically when? I don't think it is a secret to anyone that she struggles significantly in the early game stages and I do not think she gets enough strengths for her limitations in later stages of the game.

The balance team experimented with the W being able to crit, which resulted in 1800 damage 1shots, so you turned back. Alright, but then the problem remains.

So, my question is this: Will Jinx get some love, and if so, when? Because right now, despite me loving the champion, I have a distinct perception that I'm handicapping myself by playing her instead of picking Twitch, Ashe, Caitlyn or Kog'Maw, all of which have distinct strengths and weaknesses.

DaddysGirlOwO6/14/2017, 11:55:43 PM1 votes

Will Karthus EVER get an update.... granted I don't want to see him back on the rift but he feels older than poppy's old lollipoppy skin shivers

Splu6/15/2017, 11:42:26 AM1 votes

Hey, just wannted to ask what your plans with Viktor are. I feel like with the rylais/ghost changes and the high cost of his first item (hxc mk1: 1250g) he is definetly one of the weaker midlaners right now.