Let's talk about Plants!

RiotFearless·10/13/2016, 3:10:24 AM·1 votes·251,888 views

Hi all, Fearless here.

Want to grow some of the understanding around Plants: What they are, and why we think they’re a fertile space to improve the jungle and the game as a whole. The TL;DR is that after a long stretch of enriching the decisions around how to win a whole game, we needed more elements that can change how you approach individual fights.

Many changes we’ve made to the map and objectives have focused on strategic depth (the various elements that change how you attempt to win the whole game). Elemental Dragons and Baron buffing minions, for example, were all about making sure that different strategies produce games that are meaningfully different to play, and reward player adaptation over memorization of “correct” moves.

All awesome, but this left us with a clearly stand out issue: we have too few sources on the map for tactical depth (elements that promote different approaches to specific situations). We wanted to find ways to increase adaptation in individual fights, and we quickly found that the jungle, which already had unique terrain layouts and the red buffs serving as valuable skirmish objectives, had ample opportunities to do better. The Rift Scuttler, for example, creates the gameplay we’re looking for at the edge of the jungle, with constrained randomization as a core part of her identity. In the first few experiments, plants proved that infrequent but impactful interactions could inject a lot of excitement while reintroducing tactical decision making that had been decreasing as players learn to predict the outcome of more and more fights. Put plainly, plants injected excitement into fights that have trended towards predictability and being solved. They also were a fruitful way to double down on the feeling that the jungle was a living, wild space.

Let’s flesh out some details. Plants are small, single use neutral objects that activate when attacked by a champion. They spawn in semi-random locations in the jungle (similar to Bard’s chimes), and respawn after a window of regrowth. Their spawn points are fairly restricted for early game, making sure they can’t have too much impact on early gank routes or invades. We also ensure that plants have extremely strict rules around fairness: teams should have balanced access to each plant that shows up in the game. Plants also telegraph themselves to ensure players have adequate windows to adapt, showing up as a seedling 30 seconds before they can be used.

One plant we decided was ripe with opportunity very early was the Blast Cone. Look, a plant!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LVL-zcE5G0I

Imagine it as a universal Ziggs satchel, throwing all units away from the center point when attacked. These can provide some dramatic jukes or be used to throw an enemy where they don’t want to be. They are also frequently used to allow champions without dashes to hop over key walls and, yes, they spawn behind dragon and Baron Nashor pits.

In development, it also became clear that Plants had a lot of overlap with Smite Rewards, but with much better visibility, mastery and impact across game time. However, We wanted to ensure that Junglers still kept the meaningful difference when it came to jungle routes and being able to optimize the jungle to different goals. The result was changes to the jungle camps themselves to better express the strengths of different types of junglers. That gives us a lever to support a wider range of junglers at the same time, which Smite Rewards struggled with throughout their lifetime. More details about the camps that are changing in the near future.

We moved the interesting tactical reactive power of Red Buff smite into Smite itself, as well as the new restorative Honeyfruit that spawn in the river. This one’s totally designer art, so don’t expect the explosion of oranges when these show up on Summoner’s Rift.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mYsw0qINN2c

We also found ourselves missing the vision tools of Raptor Buff, and brought those into the Scryer’s Bloom.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3TEKWvJjkng

Think of this plant like a magic dandelion filled with Hawkshots, revealing champions and wards in a large cone. So while Smite buffs won’t be on our buff bars in Season 2017, I’m confident the best moments they provided will still be in our games.

That said, we are trying some really new things with plants. We’re committed to making sure that they both land well, but also that they have the space to flower into a great addition to the game. We might make significant changes as the plants take root, to things like where they spawn, what they do, and how often you interact with them.

Hope this helps give everyone a better idea of where we’re going with plants, but feel free to leaf any comments below if you still have questions!

-Fearless

1,276 Comments

Gromp Hellscream10/13/2016, 3:46:26 AM722 votes

This looks extremely gimmicky. I don't really understand why exactly denying someone kills by hitting a tree that poots out apples in river is exactly dynamic, it's just frustrating when you have outperformed and beaten your opponent they're given a get out of jail free card thanks to some very weird mini-game forced in. Or a trampoline bounce when someone hits a bumper fruit or whatever. This just seems very forced.

The Skarner approach is still very much reviled by mains of the champion and this is an extension of this strange implementation of mini games to the map as opposed to adding variance like the elemental dragons.

YoungGooby10/13/2016, 3:51:42 AM409 votes

Surely you're joking. This is one of the most ridiculous ideas I've ever seen. Why not just make the meta champions more difficult and thus more rewarding to play, instead of dumbing down the meta and replacing it with extremely random game mechanics like Rift Herald, Elemental Dragons, and now RNG fruits scattered via RNG throughout the jungles? What is with this warpath of neutering all the mechanically intensive champions? Season six was probably the worst season of League history, and moving on to next season we'll have more of the same? Yikes...

Rip Rengo 201610/13/2016, 4:24:56 AM286 votes

Please scrap this idea, this is literally worth quitting over.

Mr Broken Wings10/13/2016, 4:07:16 AM264 votes

seems to complicated and luck based. Running away from a gank and then you have luck and walk into the right plant and escape? 0 skill involved and it will just be frustrating to deal with. Please dont do that change. At least thats my opinion on this. Also you guys fucked up a whole season with dynamic que already, could you please NOT fuck the next season with a retarded change like this? Thank you.

The BM Yeti10/13/2016, 4:05:06 AM226 votes

You guys really need to learn "don't fix what's not broken"... Thought you would have with some of the decisions you made this season but apparently not. No one likes RNG. All it does is water down the skill factor. Smite buffs are a great idea and let you choose how you want to play instead of RNG deciding for you. If you're just not happy with the state they're in why not rework some of them instead of doing something completely new?

Onyx 710/13/2016, 4:45:00 AM152 votes

I feel like this is a really gimmicky attempt at trying to fix something that is not broken.

Purposely introducing more RNG into a game that is competitive and is (for the most part) based off of which is the better team in that particular game. Especially when introduced into something as strategic as the jungle role. It is incredibly infuriating when someone gets a competitive advantage because RNG for that game was on their side.

If you take something like the Elemental Drakes, for example. I do not think that random drakes is a good system, however it was better than the current dragon system at the time which was a broken system. No one wanted to take dragons, no one would take risks to fight over dragons, there was very little benefit to taking dragons that were not entirely safe. So this needed to be revamped, it was broken. It caused issues.

Where are the issues in the jungle? Right now the issues in jungle for me personally is how the laners interact with the jungler. Examples of this is bot lane requiring to take a camp majority of games in which players are capable of executing it, mid laners getting mad if you do not give over blue buff, laners taking jungle farm whenever they want because they want extra gold even if it screws over the jungler. I see no attempt at trying to aid these issues.

Instead what we see is trying to fix a system which is currently working fine, you do not and should not do a full clear every game. You should not do the same pathing every game. You should not do the same pathing for every single champion. You should not smite the same camps every time. This is not an issue. Why is it trying to be revamped by a gimmick?

This feels like if someone at Riot's development team deciding CS is now boring and you have to CS the same every game, so they introduce a new system where minions come out with random HP levels, and some give lesser-red buffs and lesser-blue buffs. That would be really annoying, right? You're laning correctly, you're winning lane and all of a sudden, the enemy gets a random blue buff-minon and can now just start spamming spells on you.

Riot's balance team did well during season 5 and 6 for the jungle finally, making it a role that gives you options to play as a carry, or to play as a supportive champion, or to play as a enabler. Right now, we have champions in the meta that are carries, enablers, supportive champions. It's great, you don't have to be a weird cross-breed of support and top now. Then this proposed change comes along and just messes with it all? I don't support this at all and I think the idea of implementing RNG in the jungle for a issue that does not exist should not be introduced.

Changes like this feels like a negative over a beneficial change. The jungler who gets the good RNG feels great, the jungler who gets unlucky feels hard-done by. Doublelift made a joke about creep block a while ago which fits this relatively well, it's like you're walking in LoL and sometimes your character just trips. Why not stick to a system to where the better jungler creates their own advantages through better strategy and execution?

EfficientDynamo10/13/2016, 4:11:53 AM128 votes

Not sure that there is a lot of value added for this change. This could easily result in some very frustrating outcomes depending on the placement of the plants, and frankly is a little too RNG. Plus, I can imagine it getting really annoying to have that healing plant pop up near bot lane and allowing someone to heal up from your poke.

Lucifer10/13/2016, 4:45:40 AM123 votes

I'm just going to say it. I'm not a fan of the plants. It's adding too much clutter and randomization to the game. Dragon buff does enough of this already. If you insist on having plants spawn, they should only be spawning a couple of times a game and in designated areas (such as how the scuttle crab does). This encourages consistency and allows teams to better plan around them. Their impact should be minimal, but also noticeable (think scuttle crab vision minimal). A janna ult/ziggs satchel charge are not appropriate for plants and should be restricted to champion kits, not random jungle elements. I am just not sold on the plants as a whole. I see them doing more harm than good. If I was that Karthus from your video I would be pissed Gnar received a bunch of random plant healing, while my ult went on a huge ass cooldown. If you insist on keeping them random all over the map, why not have them grant small amounts of vision like the scuttle crab does? This might be a way to get teams more involved in vision control, rather than that being only the job of the support.

Adding new elements to the game is fine, but I don't think now is the time to add plants, at least not anywhere near on the scale you seem to be suggesting. Season 6 was a perfect example of having too much change with not enough of it being thought out. I'd hate to see season 7 go the same route :/ I think we can all agree season 6 was the worst season for league's integrity both competitively and game-health wise. We need to focus on refining this season, not adding in a bunch of new elements like this. What is the point of plants? What do you want it to accomplish? Change for the sake of change isn't good. Just because it's new and exciting does not make it healthy for the game - That's something that the bonus game modes are for, not all of summoner's rift.

420MemeLordeGG10/13/2016, 5:14:02 AM116 votes

I have been playing this game since beta. I have 10 accounts. I will quit this game and never play again if you make this change.

Eunji pls10/13/2016, 4:33:54 AM104 votes

I'm guessing Riot's already made their decision and these will get implemented regardless of feedback, as usual. That being said, this is a totally unnecessary and anti-fun change to the game. Strategy doesn't come from randomized gimmick spawns, it evolves from a consistent set of variables in which people learn and coordinate and strategize around.

This is, quite frankly, one of the worst ideas I've ever seen Riot pitch. It reminds me more of something you would see in Heroes of the Storm which, while good for some dumb fun, is a game that's struggling for player/viewer base partially due to its poor, shallow map design issues, which is exactly what these plants sound like.

Illusion of depth is not depth. This will simply lead to less consistency and more random garbage to make the game more "exciting" I suppose, as sort of a band-aid to any actual problems you might see with SR. I like most of the recent changes that have come through, but this honestly sounds stupid as hell.

ApolloInSeattle10/13/2016, 4:23:13 AM78 votes

Could enough backlash from the League Community cause the changes to be removed? I feel as though these changes will not be well received by most players.

Jad10/13/2016, 3:59:26 AM67 votes

I don't know about this. Riot, please don't screw up when you just decided to add solo queue back and add a replay system.

Overlord Forte10/13/2016, 3:17:52 AM66 votes

Honestly, the only thing I see happening with plants is 'shoot them randomly to clear them out of the way, then fight as normal'. The only impact they'd seem to have is if an enemy is so completely unaware of the plant, they'd basically hand themselves over to it for free.

Supreme Senpai6910/13/2016, 4:45:18 AM57 votes

I sorta wish we could downvote this to show how much we dislike it. I get the whole "They hate new things they hate what they can't understand" status quo thing. But this isn't that. This is us saying this idea is not something we, as the players, want in our games.

JimMaru10/13/2016, 4:41:09 AM53 votes

I'm actually quite glad that people are concerned and dislike this whole idea. I for one find it very arbitrary and that doesn't add anything interesting to the game. The vision one is the only that seems ok to me.

Sadly as per freaking usual riot will ignore how much people dislike this and implement anyway. Prepare for one year from now "Oh, remember plants? Well, that didn't really fulfill our original intent, while also adding complexity and randomness to the game. So we're removing that and now adding neutral bugs that you have to collect in the jungle! Because having to babysit 3 lanes, control objectives, farm and counter the enemy strategy is not enough pressure on the jungler!"

Tormentula10/13/2016, 3:29:56 AM45 votes

WOW...

Ok, Idk what to think about this.. (WAS THAT 5 MINI RAZORBEAKS IN THAT LEE SIN CLIP?)

So wait.. jungle buffs are gone and they're only in the randomized plants now?

I don't know how to feel about this... there better be a global indicator for knowing their spawn points cause If i'm sweeping dragon and they just so happen to have a vision plant, thats going to be such bullshit to get cheesed by and lose drag to. These give game advantages randomly, its not an objective you just "secure when you can" they're just there like bard's chimes.. they either fuck you sideways spawning in the dumbest places leading to death or help you out a ton.

I'm still confused with how smite works now and what jungle buffs are still there for smiting camps. Is everything the same but with these plants?

Fives10/13/2016, 5:11:56 AM43 votes

Didnt they once talk about how they dont want frustrating moments in the game through rng hence removing the dodge stat?

VVilliamson10/13/2016, 5:36:06 AM42 votes

riot, i love you, but this is fucking retarded.

Urhakaan10/13/2016, 4:05:59 AM42 votes

OR ... how about we dont talk about plants and you stop adding cancerous elements to the game....

Alastor DMC10/13/2016, 5:11:41 AM42 votes

Are you serious with this? League needs more rewards for skillfull plays /decision making and less RNG elements to the game. Stop trying to make the game more casual and try to make it require MORE skill not less. Striving to get better at a game that is hard is in itself a big part of enjoying a game. And the game already is easy if you are a new player vs other new players, it doesnt need fixing, it needs an even higher skill cap.

And this is a step on the OPPOSITE direction of what the game needs. It needs LESS RNG, a ton more skill based changes. You already messed up trying to force Dynamic Queue despite the feedback and took you a whole season to correct your mistake (should have brought soloq back at the start of the season right after the backlash of DQ) because you were too stubborn to admit you messed up. DONT do the same thing with this thing, scrap the idea while you have time, you already said youll bring soloq back which is a step in the right direction, DO NOT ruin it with this. Season 6 was already the worst season, with dynamic queue and the "lets all be friends and casuals attitude".

What makes the top games alluring is the high skillcap and striving to get there while enjoying the ride. Dumbing down and randomizing the game is never gonna be the answer.

stracchino10/13/2016, 4:21:54 AM42 votes

But it's fine as it is right now..?

You guys don't need to be constantly "fixing" things, some stuff is actually fine the way it is believe it or not.

This whole change seems like it would just make jungling/invading a lot more annoying.

I hope this isn't something you ignore everyone on and then revert again next pre-season.

Fondling Gems10/13/2016, 3:15:32 AM41 votes

To ask the most important question: Why can't it stay as oranges?
To ask the second most important question: Can the "Honeyfruit plant" be renamed to the "K plant"?

Kazzper10/13/2016, 4:19:16 AM40 votes

This might suck to hear because it seems like you have spent a long time working hard on this but it just doesn't hit the mark imo. It feels very gimmicky and like you are just forcing "new" gameplay instead of making something better or even adding depth.

Currently I feel like I get to make meaningful decisions with what I smite. It is true some camp smites become more valuable than others in later parts of the game but could that not be fixed my refining the weaker ones.

This new plant system remind of of skarners passive - a forced mini game that will end up being too impactful (and thus unfair because of rng fruits) or completely lackluster.

BliTzzAcE10/13/2016, 4:30:13 AM37 votes

what the fuck is this bull shit

MisterBlaster10/13/2016, 4:50:42 AM29 votes

Please don't implement this change. The jungle is completely fine at the moment. Smiting stuff should be a player's decision on what bonus he wants or what he doesn't want. Adding more RNG to the game is not a good idea, because it involves more luck, not skill.

ModCaptainMårvelous10/13/2016, 5:10:05 AM28 votes

I sat around thinking about this because I'm welfare gold but I do have some general thoughts on this:

  • It seems very gimmicky.
  • It seems like these will range between "Sick broken OP" and "Pointless"

The most apt comparison I can find from another game is the DOTA2 rune system. For the unaware: In the river every few minutes two runes spawn. One is a majorly important rune that does something major while the other is a small rune that's worth about a handful of CS or so. Now, this (like plants) is RNG and can be stupidly powerful or stupidly useless. HOWEVER:

  • Runes always spawn in a static location, unlike plants.
  • Runes always spawn at the same time.
  • Runes affect stats more than providing a different effect.

If I may make some suggestions, from the look of it plants provide too much gimmick power in a short span while also being occasionally useless. Some suggestions include:

  • Having the spawn point be static. One at each entrance to the red-buff jungle. (Right by Baron/Dragon)
  • Have the buff spawn be static as well.
  • Add more varied plants. Right now there are three that only do vision/knockback/heal. Of the three, I'd imagine the vision/heal are always best with heal being the most generically good.

Other games have proven such a system can work. However, as it is now, I don't think this is the right implementation.

Xx S4NN4S xX10/13/2016, 5:43:04 AM28 votes

It seems almost no one likes this. I hope Riot turns back.

The Human Brick10/13/2016, 3:52:36 AM27 votes

idk how I feel about this as a Jungle main, I really liked the intentional situational choices you could make with your smites. While yes this did make it annoying for Junglers with Challenging smite to give up a smite bonus for the risk of needing to fight someone soon; it also felt better picking a smite depending on your situation. i.e. I would smite raptors a bit before dragon/baron was spawning to not need a sweeper or pinks (while they are good) or smite Krugs then go smack a tower for bonus damage and faster seige for first blood turret. It will also be annoying having these situational choices turn into rng for if you get the right one in the right place at he right time (if I am interpreting this right). If a Riot member does read this I would also love to know how you feel about Righteous Glory right now, it is typically used on champions who would much rather have a Deadman's Plate which does essentially the same thing but with a shorter "cooldown".

TermEdd10/13/2016, 4:46:29 AM25 votes

This is legit the worst idea ive ever seen, your practically rewarding players who are doing something wrong and giving them a chance to escape. why not just remove flash while your at it and add those exploding cone plants everywhere. Also the jungle right now gives so much health regen its insane im literally waiting in a bush sometimes gaining +50 health for nothing for just being in the jungle, These plants are literally a joke if you trying to even think junglers need this.

February10/13/2016, 6:03:32 AM24 votes

i want to play league of legends not fucking farmville

DeathInExcess10/13/2016, 5:23:34 AM24 votes

I for one, as it seems for many people, do not like this idea. PLEASE DO NOT PUT THIS IN LEAGUE...

Kieferr10/13/2016, 5:13:07 AM21 votes

Seems extremely f*cking frustrating to lose kills to randomly spawning "plants" that supposedly appear throughout the jungle. Also, just imagine yourself as a jungler sneaking in a free dragon while POOF the enemy Lee sin gets vision of you just cause of a randomly spawning plants and slams you. Seems like total bullshit to me. What is the point of this? What does it accomplish? How does it make the jungle more fun? It just turns it into a shitfest of RNG.

D2Vincent10/13/2016, 4:20:06 AM19 votes

... I feel like the Honeyfruit will make damaging ults like say... karthus (y'know, since he was in the video) rather useless. It doesn't seem fair that if someone in the jungle is low, they can just find the nearest Honeyfruit and completely avoid that.

Skystrike710/13/2016, 4:53:20 AM18 votes

if plants turn out to be a bad idea for some reason, will you remove them or try to salvage them? In the past y'all have seemed very stubborn about not deleting things bad for overall game health (yasuo, ekko, frozen mallet), and I'm worried that if this does not succeed, the game will turn into a pile of crap.

Stellafreyja10/13/2016, 5:25:20 AM18 votes

My concern is, what if these plants don't end up working out? Would you guys revert the jungle changes? Or would you continue to force the plants upon us with continual tweaks and changes even though no one likes them/the design is flawed?

On a more personal note, I don't like the idea of plants. Seems far too gimmicky. I've also seen other peoples' concern about the bomb plant being skewed towards ranged champions and I agree completely with them.

My prediction, gonna fail horribly.

RavenHusky10/13/2016, 4:26:10 AM16 votes

Not sold on the idea as it seems like more complexity for the sake of complexity. I liked the idea of the elemental dragons, adding variance without added complexity, but a new gimmick for the sake of a new gimmick that we have to go out of our way for, is going too far.

I'm one of those people that hates being required to go out of our way to play dominion whenever Skarner shows up in my game, and having another mini game to play around is not what I want to see.