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Quick Gameplay Thoughts: August 18

RiotMeddler·8/18/2017, 4:43:47 PM·1 votes·55,432 views

Hi folks,

Usual Disclaimers

These posts will often contain talk about future work we're doing, or planning to do, that isn't yet guaranteed to ship. The nature of the work could change or, depending on what we discover, projects mentioned may get put delayed or even stopped. If you'd like to see a Tweet whenever a new one of these posts goes up: https://twitter.com/RiotMeddler

Stoneplate changes partially delayed

Looks like we'll be shipping one of the previously mentioned Stoneplate changes (bug fix so it doesn't give more health than intended when combined with Cinderhulk) in 7.17. The other change (extra health granted is a mixture of base and bonus, rather than all bonus) however will have to be delayed to 7.18. It's tested well and we were hoping to get that in for 7.17 but there's a little bit of technical work needed to implement it bug free so we'll need to push it back a patch.

Ornn and Worlds

Been seeing the question crop up occasionally of whether Ornn will be playable at Worlds or not. It's an issue we went back and forth on a lot ourselves, our conclusion at the end though was that he shouldn't be available. His release is only a couple of patches before the Worlds patch (7.18) and he's got a lot of distinctive stuff on his kit that could take a bit longer than usual to assess the impact of, upgraded items for his allies especially. We're really excited to see him in pro play, want to make sure we've had time to do any polish that's needed though.

A few 7.18 Balance plans

Some of the champs we'll be looking at in 7.18 below. Since there's a 3 week gap between 7.17 and 7.18 we'll also be doing a second pass partway through the patch development cycle. That means there'll be further changes coming, based in part on how 7.17 performs and pro play on 7.16 which starts this coming weekend.

Nautilus - Needs to be buffed. Not certain what we'll do yet, first step is assessing his needs. Panth - We'll likely nerf his early Q damage. Might then put some power somewhere else, make him less about either crushing lane or failing to be usefu. An ult buff's one of the more likely possible changes. Janna - No immediate changes planned, going to be monitoring her closely though to see how the combination of Coin and Ardent Censer nerfs affect her though, with changes later in the patch cycle moderately likely as a result.

Champ Changes not in 7.18

Touching on a few champs we've been testing things for recently that won't be coming back in the 7.18 patch at least:

Vayne - Changes likely coming in 7.19. Removing Q's ability to crit and putting power elsewhere's still the plan. Azir - Small update could be as soon as 7.19. Still going well, got some focused testing this week and weekened though which might reveal something new. Udyr - Hoping to have something ready for him before pre-season (7.22) still, need to see how work on him goes though. Yasuo - We've got some good lessons from the Yasuo changes we've been trying, won't be shipping anything for a while however. Extra range on his ult showed some good promise in particular, since it allowed him to better capitalize on his allies' play without giving him more personal power. Will likely revisit that next time we look at Yasuo. Shifting power from his shield to other defensive effects (e.g. base stats) also showed both some promise and some risks.

197 Comments

Penns8/18/2017, 5:35:41 PM11 votes

What about crit items tho? (also assassins that get rekt by shield + peel + tank meta due to their forced delays Fizz hehe)

https://i.gyazo.com/998dd23f64af0e783060fffae3d24a43.gif It was at this moment that I knew... forget playing assassins and mid, ill just main support and adc Kappa https://i.gyazo.com/a8d3f8f745c9c126ace7fe8d95ce1d03.png

Winterkill8/18/2017, 5:37:34 PM9 votes

Janna suffers the same problems Karma does. Her kit is only good when there are items she can abuse. Janna is in the state she's in now because of items. Yet again, you are allowing a champion to be dictated by how strong a shield enhancing item is. You nerfed Karma for the very same reason and look at her playrate and winrate. I am afraid if you nerf anything about Janna she is going to be in the same state Karma is.

New Enchanters and recently worked on Enchanters do a better job than Karma and Janna do. You want to know why? They offer something more unique in their kits than just one button being spammed. No champion should be dictated by how strong a shield enhancing item is or how strong their shield is. If any part of Janna is nerfed to the point that Karma was, she is going to be just as bad . . . if not worse than Karma.

The fact of the matter is, Meddler, no team at Riot HQ can be bothered to offer any skill expression and uniqueness to Janna. Her kit is severely outdated and bland compared to the amount of time, effort, and creativity you put in reworks and new champions. What is so unique about Janna and creative about her? Lulu can use auto attacks and abilities off of shielded champions. Taric can use abilities off of shielded targets and is rewarded for doing it when he goes in and uses an auto attack. Rakhan has an entire kit that interactive, unique, and creative compared to Karma and Janna. Both Karma and Janna offer nothing new to the Enchanter role or the game.

Janna has an amazing new lore and theme for you to play off of. The only thing you can come up with is allowing her to use abilities more with the same kit. Doesn't Karma already do that with a kit that is in the same exact spot? I can come up with so many new abilities and reworks of existing abilities with just the paragraph below.

"She started small. Seafarers would sometimes spot a bright blue bird just before a healthy tailwind billowed their sails. Others could swear they'd hear a whistling in the air right before a storm, as if to warn them of its approach. As word of these benevolent omens spread, sightings of the bird grew more common. Some swore they had seen the bird transform into a woman. With tapered ears and flowing hair, this mysterious maiden was said to float above the water and direct the wind with a flick of her staff."

You want to know what this game doesn't currently have in terms of a unique Enchanter? A zoning shielder. A champion that places a shield in a set place that allies have to run to. Doesn't Janna kind of already do that with her ULT? To receive a heal allies have to run to her and get it. I don't understand how you can say Janna needs work, when you are refusing to do nothing but the minimal amount of work. The same can be said of Karma. You refuse to do the type of work these champions actually need to make them healthier and add more skill expression, but you do the same type of work every year with the same result: a nerf.

LyingOnLine8/18/2017, 5:01:32 PM9 votes

Pantheon nerfs? Hell to the hell yes!

Seriously though, Panth doesn't need compensation buffs. He's been at ~54% winrate for the entire season so far, nerfs are all that's deserved.

Zaunite Scuttler8/18/2017, 5:48:54 PM7 votes

Greetings Meddler, I do not know if this is the right place to do it, but I came to talk about Tahm Kench. I am, in short, suggesting changing the stun of his Q on thrice-stacked targets into a charm instead. Why am I suggesting such a thing ? Context. I am a big fan of Tahm Kench. I personally think he is one of the best designed champions in the game, in terms of coherency between his visuals, background, and gameplay (you can give his dev team my congratulations). But I feel that, regarding the way he is designed, a last improvement could be made. I’ve read the Champion Insight that was published when he released (http://na.leagueoflegends.com/en/news/champions-skins/champion-preview/champion-insights-tahm-kench-river-king). I shall use it to back my words. In this Champ Insight, we learn that Tahm Kench’s character is built around his mouth. He is at first a mere devourer, but then, he is also a charmer, someone who uses his mouth and tongue to both attract and devour his prey. Thus, linking background and gameplay, we can understand that when he licks his enemies (with his basic attacks and his Q), he is somewhat talking them into trusting him (the slow), slowly trapping them thanks to his eloquence... So, when, he achieves this, he finally charming his enemies would make a lot more sense than a simple stun. In a world full of slows, stuns and knock-ups, CC abilities like charm, fear, or taunt conveys in my eyes much more than just power, strength, or precision (which are what is mostly conveyed through stuns or knock-ups) ; these “different” CC types show really well uniqueness or personality in my opinion. It is, I understand that, important that such CC exist, but for Tahm Kench ? Is it really power, strength, precision, that define him ? Tahm’s dev team fully committed into a character created around his mouth and his uses of it. A silver-tongued, talking fiend that charms his enemies, wouldn’t it be so perfect in game ? Still, I understand a few things. First, that it is a different kind of CC that may reveal harder to balance. It is obvious that, a charm being more powerful that a stun for Tahm Kench’s kit, the duration of the CC is likely gonna go down (a 1.5 second-lasting charm would be pretty busted ; better make it 1 second or so). Second, that he is probably not your priority at all. There’s the Worlds, the Runes Reforged, the preseason... And Tahm is fine as he is, it seems, in the current meta. I am just asking to you, to Riot’s dev team, to consider it, to keep it somewhere in your head(s) and, if you think this is worth it, to at least try it out. Thanks for hearing me out, you do a great job overall.

Scot8/18/2017, 5:06:47 PM6 votes

Did you get any input from pros on the Ornn decision?

IxtaliKing8/18/2017, 5:44:41 PM6 votes

Hey Meddler, 2 questions;

  1. With Karma being the worst overall ranking mid laner (according to champ.gg), is it likely that she'll be worked on at some point after world's?

  2. I noticed you didn't mention Xin in your post, how's his update coming along?

Solari Fortune8/18/2017, 4:54:41 PM6 votes

Do you think Shyv could do with a Rek'sai level rework or is she gonna need a VGU at some point in the future? She could use something cause atm she is just a stat check champion like Jax or Irelia.

DontKillMySoraka8/18/2017, 4:50:20 PM6 votes

Hey Meddler,

pls buff Karma, she is already struggling at 45% win rate and will even more after ardent nerf. Current thoughts on that?

Zerenza8/18/2017, 5:06:03 PM5 votes

Can you tell us when you predict Evelynn's Rework will show up? After worlds patch, During or Before?

Also, what are your thoughts on Twitch? He can start attacking you from outside his reveal range, something that Evelynn was nerfed for a long time ago so i thought it was nice tie in question.

ThePurpleKnight8/18/2017, 7:45:24 PM5 votes

Just take away Yasuos stupid shield passive that makes him immune to poke and give him normal crit damage on auto attacks.

A melee assassin mid lane should be weak to poke, they are always gonna win all in and usually have better sustain, I mean Yasuo doesn't even have mana. Which means the only real weakness in 1v1 laning vs mages is poke, a mage should be able to poke Yasuo if he makes mistakes, he's got W and a some what ranged Q to farm, he doesn't need a shield that babies him entirely.

As is stands in order to Poke Yasuo you have to auto attack him, then wait like 2 seconds and then hit him quickly before it comes back, but if you're in range to auto attack him he's in range to dash through minions onto you. not to mention by level 9 he gets his shield back way too fast to ever take poke damage again unless it's from an unreasonable champion like Brand who does way more damage than the shield blocks. This shield removes so much counterplay to Yasuo and it's about time you guys swallowed your senseless pride and scrapped it.

Way of the Wanderer, more like Way of the Yasuo abusing piece of shit.

Excalibait8/18/2017, 4:51:18 PM5 votes

Are there more pro play specific changes planned for worlds yet, like how you already did with some mids (Cassio/Taliyah/Orianna)?

SuperSebastiao8/18/2017, 4:48:58 PM5 votes

Hey Meddler, what about the changes to Brand in order to buff his mid lane role you talked about last patch?

Spideraxe8/18/2017, 4:46:30 PM4 votes

Hey Meddler, Riot Fearless recently mentioned you guys were in talks of a "release valve" for excessive healing can you elaborate

Yadid8/18/2017, 7:21:40 PM4 votes

With the introduction of the ten ban system, we saw Yasuo's ban rate soar. I specifically remember some Rot commentary on how they saw this as a definite sign he needs looking at. Since then, I've been reading that Yasuo's getting buffs? I don't understand what's happened between the rhetoric of "we're looking into changes" and "we're looking into buffs".

Cryptocurrency8/18/2017, 8:51:00 PM4 votes

Are they any plans for Fiddlesticks? He had a bad winrate paired with a low pickrate for a long time now (even experience player struggle with him).

Fiddlesticks is no stranger to indirect nerfs (Magus > Runic Echoes, fear changes, Zhyonas Hourglass changes) but also the jungle changes him hard.

Buff monsters loses their minions:

  • Fiddlesticks no longer gets bounces with his Dark Wind. For an entire jungle clear this adds over 20 seconds of extra clearing time. This alone kills the champion.
  • For reference, Nocturne now clears the jungle almost a full MINUTE faster than Fiddlesticks. They had about equal clear time before.

Raptor buff having more small raptors:

  • Even though Fiddlesticks likes jungle camps to have more than one creep, it can easily become too much. Old raptor camp was already pushing it, and the new one is extremely inefficient with Fiddlesticks E.

New Krugs:

  • The new Krugs is a cool idea, but it completely fucks the way Fiddle clears the jungle. If you use your Dark Wind the krugs die fast, but you have it on cooldown as the smaller ones appear and you have to drain and auto them down individually. It just takes way too long. This camp is almost never worth doing as Fiddlesticks. Krugs were his fastest camp before and now it's by far his weakest.

Removal of Raptor smite buff:

  • Fiddlesticks was the best user of the Raptor smite buff in the game. Period. He completely relied on it to get surprise ultimates off. With that gone every ultimate is a gamble unless you have a sweeper or control ward area, which takes time and setup. Possibly the biggest indirect nerf to any champion in preseason 7 is this removal.
  • The addition of health on smite does NOTHING for Fiddlesticks since he has such a sustained clear, so he even gets no benefit from the tradeoff change.

PLANTS:

  • Vision plant can see Fiddle's ultimate locations even though he perfectly cleared vision of that area. Huge nerf.
  • Honeybloom is mostly useless for Fiddlesticks, but this isn't the biggest deal.
  • Explosive plant can stop channels and thus Fiddle can't duel anyone near them. It doesn't sound like the biggest deal, but it limits your options in quite a few scenarios. Also people can use it to get out of your drain even if you're not in it.
La Bello8/19/2017, 6:28:41 AM2 votes

Vayne - Changes likely coming in 7.19. Removing Q's ability to crit and putting power elsewhere's still the plan.

Well this depends on the direction of the power you want to give her. Do you want to give Vayne more TANK BUSTING power or more DUELING(squishy) power?

Aryador8/19/2017, 12:11:16 PM2 votes

Hi meddler as well any rioter reading I didn't get any answer to my idea last time so i will post it again because I actually think you should examine that path.

About vayne:

You seem to want to reinforce her anti-tank nature while reducing her squishy bursting potential but should I remind you that yourself noted vayne class as being an assassin as a secondary class. So is her assassin nature something you want to take away ? If so you would be trying to get her away from her identity this would no longer be vayne.

But if you really want to tamper with her I would :

Take away the crit from the Q but increase it's ratio buff her W subtantially Take away the free Ad from her ultimate but give her some on hit effect base on max hp. this would make any crit build pure trash while maintaining her "kill per second" pretty much the same regardless of targets meaning a substantial nerf to her "instant kill". However such a modification would mean that vayne would have not that good of a dueling potential against a crit build adc and being a duelist she should have the edge in a 1v1 provided she is more or less in the same condition as her opponent and has ult up but hopefully the current state of the item would still leave some room for an assassin vayne provided she is built to do it.

However in order for vayne to still remain as a late game champion and avoid her hitting a super power spike at lvl9 + bork I would like both the W and on hit effect I suggest on the R to also scale per level in the same way as jinx Q scales both of skill's rank and jinx's level.

Aryador, Low diamond.

Big Bad Wolf 8/19/2017, 10:13:41 PM2 votes

How about you show some love to the good ol' kench? I feel you nerfed him backwards, his problem was a unkillable top with massive shield and you went first and got rid of his support movement speed (which was a great part of his kit as support). Then you got his passive/ult which was in my opinion a great call for power balance. And finally you took the most troublesome part away which was his massive long lasting shield and made it fairly good. Can we expect his support side to be buffed in the future? (giving him some of that mobility back?)