Follow-up to early Midseason Durability feedback

RiotRiotRepertoir·Apr 7, 2017·1 votes·67,849 views

Hi all,

Just wanted to toss up some thoughts about what I've been seeing from the community feedback-wise regarding the midseason durability stuff that went to PBE yesterday. This post will mostly be a collection of common concerns I've seen, and what I think the path forward is on them. That said, this is in no particular order, and by the time I've finished typing this up, I'll probably have left some things out, so do feel free to ask in the comments. Here we go:

Banshee's Veil harming mid lane Many players are expressing concern over the mechanical changes to Banshee's Veil, primarily worried it will become a must-buy in mid lane and ruin opportunities for lane aggression there. The cooldown of the spell shield on PBE is tuned pretty aggressively at the moment, so I definitely think this concern is valid. I'll be looking at making some small tweaks so that it is much more clearly not a frequent lane purchase, whether that means adjusting the cooldown model or the statline or the cost.

Why is Guardian Angel an AD only item? Simply put, we tested an AP version alongside the AD version, and the AP version just wasn't all that appealing since those characters can mostly just resort to building Zhonya's anyway. Consequently, giving many AP champions access to several moments of stasis didn't seem like the right call for the overall fun of the game. Shortly after the time we decided to remove the AP version from testing, we made the Abyssal/Banshee swap, with one of the intentions being to round out a feeling of fairness in defensive itemization options between AP and AD; AP should now have situational, visibly powerful defensive effects against both physical and magic damage, as should AD.

Why didn't we work on Thornmail/Ohmwrecker/Banner/Zz'Rot/etc.? While working on all these items, one of the top goals was to lay a good foundation for defensive itemization that could be built upon. There are definitely some items in the shop that are hardly earning their place, but we think those items can hopefully be tackled one at a time in individual patches down the road. For what it's worth, we even had some iterations of Ohmwrecker where it was positioned to have a statline more like Sunfire/DMP/Randuin's, but playtests showed that without significant work on the item active, it still would never be attractive unless just grossly overtuned. And thus we focused on getting the frameworks in a good spot, and coming back to individual items like these later.

Randuin's sucks This could very well be true. The idea behind Randuin's was to position it as both the most defensive and the cheapest option of the primary Health/Armor items, but it seems like players would prefer it had ~300g worth of power put into it so that the reason to pick it over Sunfire/DMP is much clearer and more satisfying

Why would we remove Randuin's Crit Damage Reduction? Champions investing in crit tend to have very delayed power curves, where they feel like they need a bunch of their items to come online before they can really impact the game. The number of ways specifically designed to reduce auto attack damage results in those attacks needing to be pretty absurd when defenders don't take every single measure available to mitigate them. Between generally high Armor/lvl, multi-Armor items being in end game builds, Ninja Tabi reduction, Warden's/Randuin's/FH AS reduction, and Randuin's Crit reduction, basic attacks just end up needing to be crazy in order to function in the late game, and you can observe this in the game today. Randuin's Crit reduction being removed is a step in the other direction, but we are also looking at reducing the total amount of Percent Pen on items like Last Whisper on the other end of the spectrum.

Banshee's/Abyssal swap is confusing Yes. Agree, and we'll be trying to come to the solution that makes the most sense.

Gargoyle Stoneplate looks pretty cool Seems like players are generally pretty excited about this item, with some concern about outlier abuse cases and the general efficiency of the item. Might see some light iteration over the course of the next few weeks.

Adaptive Helm is too good against X champion Adaptive Helm's purpose is to be the Health/MR item that feels especially good to pick up against powerful sustained magic damage threats, so in that way, we want to make sure it is effective at that. That said, it could probably use some small tweaks to make it not just the best pickup against all mages, which I think is a valid concern to have. Possibly reducing the duration of the effect to 4 or 3 seconds so that it's not picking up unintended spellcasts? Alternatively, reducing its MR by ~10 and increasing its DR to 20% so that it's less generally good and more targeted? We're aiming for this item to be somewhat akin to "Randuin's/FH, but for magic damage."

Magic Damage dealers are getting the short end of the stick Between the new items, and some adjustments to existing ones, I see where this sentiment comes from, and I'll be giving some thought to whether a course of action is appropriate here or not. One thing that I do think goes unconsidered (or at least underconsidered?) is that champions looking to get tanky tend to buy a lot more Armor items than MR items (if only to deal with the large number of physical threats in the game), and the amount of HP on most of the popular tank Armor items is being reduced, which is a buff to mage early/mid games especially. That said, I understand that this is somewhat offset by the addition of things like small amounts of MR/lvl being added to the game, as well as targeted direct counters being introduced for tanks.

That wraps up my thoughts before I go grab lunch and sit through some afternoon meetings. Hope this helps to let everyone know where it seems we're at with these things, and like I said, I probably left some stuff out, but feel free to ask about any individual questions you have.

Thanks for all the thoughts thus far, Repertoir

220 Comments

AdalvarApr 7, 201773 votes

The issue with regards to magic damage dealers is a compound one where these new items are the last straw that may simply phase them out of midlane.

Let's look at the list ever since season 5:

End game versions of either lost AP (), got reworked out of the tree () or had their build-paths and costs massively increased ().
Scaling items also lost a significant portion of their stats either directly () or indirectly (), while retaining their slow power curves.
Most new/reworked items have low amounts of AP ( ) and outside of Protobelt, their utility effects aren't up to snuff to match the low end offensive statline.
is a decent lane item, but it's lack of end-game options outside of is as painful to deal with as the lack of endgame is.
DPS/AP "marksmen" lack a proper item for their class, since is only good on and only at 70% due to the fact that his soldiers don't benefit from the Nashor's passive.
Then you had the rise of AD/MR items such as and the worst offender , which already takes a steaming dump on most AP champions.
Then there's issue that the AP armory is broken down, with items that have no identity , items that overlap in function , with the latter still getting the short end of the stick compared to either or . And there is no item for DPS mages outside of .

And now we add the new issues to this:

All champions are getting a X amount of MR naturally, which is a natural kick in the pants and will enforce rushing.
Adaptive Helm is another kick in nuts to the above mentioned "AP marksmen" aswell as most combo based magic damage dealers.
New is pretty much old : the first who rushes it wins lane/gets a massive lead, then the other side gets it and the gameplay value becomes null and void. Not to mention this completely takes away the value of aggressive plays.
We also have Gargoyle Stoneplate, which granted is pretty telegraphed, but magic damage dealers struggle with high health targets and this doubles that struggle.
is now an ADC item. So no more assassinations/all ins since the bloody ADC will have 2 lives.

So right now something has to give. Either tone down heavily on these new item effects, or infuse more AP into certain items (scaling ones in particular are in dire need of this), and/or create more distinction between their effects.

EDIT: Small formating issues.

Ark SorcererApr 7, 201724 votes

I cannot possible agree more. I have always noted how AP Champs are getting the short end of the stick since mid season 6. With Mages having lower ratios, meaning we can't snowball as hard, AP taken out of the items, and now MR is popping up a lot, I can't help but feel AP Mages and Assassins are simply forgotten/hated by Riot.

Items have been hard on Mages for a long while, and the mid season will likely make this harder on mages. Hopefully your comment can reach up and someone can actually take note of it.

ChaddyFantomeApr 8, 20171 votes

The issue with regards to magic damage dealers is a compound one where these new items are the last straw that may simply phase them out of midlane.

Last time this claim was made, we entered a mage meta.

AdalvarApr 8, 201710 votes

That was due to the fact that the assassin class in general we're a non-factor in the game, which is not the case now with Ahri Ekko Katarina Kassadin Talon Khazix Rengar being in very strong spots.

Last time there wasn't a item 3026 for ADC's, or an item that decreases your magical damage by 15-20% for a continuous duration, or an item that is pretty much the League's version of a Megaman series Sub-Tank

ChaddyFantomeApr 8, 20171 votes

{quoted}

That was due to the fact that the assassin class in general we're a non-factor in the game, which is not the case now with being in very strong spots.

Bullshit. People spent the entire half of that season complaining about AD mids and assassins being too strong. Maw got nerfed repeatedly as did Zed for the record.

Also, i fail to see how Ahri , Ekko, Katarina, Karradin are good arguments right now when they all benefit and built the same as Mages do/did.

Last time there wasn't a for ADC's, or an item that decreases your magical damage by 15-20% for a continuous duration,

That isn't how it works. it reduces subsequent instances of damage from the same spell or effect,

So Lux using her E will do the full damage but Casseopia using her E multiple times will result in less damage on subsequent E's and Malzahar E will do less damage on every tick of the spell after the first one.

Yea, because having a high damage AoE Dash, a pint and click instant high damage slow, an Aoe Damaging slow, The highest scaling stat in the game and more efficient Resistance penetration on top of an invincibility button, and not to mention item 3165 item 3027 just existing, extra scaling damage on spells for walking, and an item that gives you empowered autos after every spell cast is such bad itemization options. Lets not forget our Hey lets get our"slow on every spell" item.

or an item that is pretty much the League's version of a Megaman series Sub-Tank

which item are you even referring to? xD

AdalvarApr 8, 20179 votes

Maw got nerfed...and it's still an AP killer item.

Why do Ahri Kassadin Ekko Katarina matter? Geez, maybe it's because they are in a very stong point and their primary point is that they make a mage's life complete hell. Even if itemization falls to shit, at their current levels of power, they will still make mages lives a living hell.

Oww sure because AD's don't have 3 AD items with shields item 3053 item 3156 item 3072 , an item that gives you vision clear and scaling true damage item 3147 . AOE basics item 3085 , long distance basics item 3094 and also extra scaling on basics for walking item 3087 . Then there's the multiple penetration items item 3814 item 3142 item 3071 item 3036 item 3033 . Not to mention these item 3139 item 3156 are tailor made to screw up AP champions and now they come with a revival item item 3026 . And an item that gives empowered autos on each spell cast item 3078 are such bad itemization options. And hey let's not forget our HP shredder on every auto item 3153 /s

Also i'm pretty sure attack speed and crits will still outscale AP at the later game stages, despite their less than stellar build ups.

Gargoyle Stoneplate. As in the "double my HP if shit hits the fan" item.

MarthoraxApr 8, 20175 votes

Logged in for the first time in weeks just to up-vote this.

ModJango MageApr 8, 20174 votes

I feel the same way as you do. And i tought of some things that still nerfed ap champions a bit. -Blue doesnt give 15%ap anymore. -It was a big nerf to all ap junglers and ap mid laners(even tough the buffs duration got increased...to the original pre s6 mid season state) -AP Assasins -This class of champions is propably going to be non-existent by mid season, since some of them are already in a bad state(Eve,lb,Kassa,Fizz,Diana) and going to be in a worse one, or they are kinda viable, but the mid season changes are putting them in a bad state.(Kata, Ekko) (The second one also aplyes to most mages). For example, with the Abyssal changes they lost one of their core item. -Once i sat down at the early point of s6, and started to look at s5 patch notes. All of them. Than i wrote down evey change which involved mages, and about 2/3 of them were nerfs. -Masteries mostly favor ad champions -Lets admit this. The 3 viable options for mages(and ap assasins) are DFT, TL and SS. With TL being good on almost everyone, DFT being a less favored but imo still strong mastery and SS being only viable on a few champions. AD champions in the other hand can use way more. All of the 3 i listed above are usuable on somekind of ad champions, and they can also choose fervor,bloodlords,grasp and courage. There are some other minor thins too, like an AP champion cant get any benefits from armor pen, but most ad champion have somekind of magic dmg so magic pen(even if a small amount) can help them. -However this might be the least meaningful of the points i listed above.

ParkerLTApr 8, 20177 votes

I completely agree with you. AP items have consistently lost power over the course of the past few years. item 3027 -20 AP item 3285 -20 AP item 3157 -45 AP item 3116 -25 AP. Also the introduction of low AP items ie item 3152 item 3030 has caused AP builds to go from ~800 AP late game to ~600 AP late game. With these item changes a tanks will probably see an increase of about 50-100 more MR in their kit leading to AP champions losing a lot of their late game power. While the item changes may have marginal benefits in the mid game, ie 100 less health to tear through, the loss late game will be to great.

I'd recommend making item 3151 100 AP item 3027 120 AP item 3030 100 AP item 3157 100 AP. For some context on those changes, has never really been in the spot light and buffing an item that has inherit magic pen would allow mages to get more pen vs buffed MR stats, or allow for item 3158 to be purchased for more spam. has very little benefit over item 3165 , at first buy you have 40 less AP, 100 less mana at only a 200g difference. You have to wait 10 mins to scale to the same AP as morello. The only situation you should buy this item over morello is when you need to get tanky in lane, even then the item 3030 has more AP on buy, same catalyst passive, a damage active, and same health on buy. And as for item 3157 , it just hurts when you have to buy the item, you loose so much AP compared to what it used to be and you are buying an item only for an active, if you need just armor and AP, not the active, the item 3191 has the same armor fully stacked than zhonya's.

DeathBurstApr 9, 20172 votes

With these item changes a tanks will probably see an increase of about 50-100 more MR in their kit

Hum, what? Where do you get that 50-100 number?

DessemApr 7, 201731 votes

Repertoir, hi. You say you intend to create fairness for AP/AD defensive itemisation. ADs have Hexdrinker, Maw of Malmortius, Edge of Night, Quicksilver Sash and Mercurial Scimitar to counter AP: I'm aware two of them are components, but they are incredibly potent. They will also have GA against AD.

AP have Seeker's Armguard, Zhonya against AD. Banshee's against AP.

I think this doesn't address the sense of unfairness, and with making GA an AD-exclusive item you risk exacerbating the feeling that there aren't as many AP defensive options, generally considering Hexdrinker nullifies at least 160 damage on top of MR. Seeker's Armguard still doesn't nullify as much damage as Hexdrinker, and new Banshee is a weird buy against AD.

Especially considering Hexdrinker/Maw nullify mage burst without forcing a stasis on AD. Any consideration to providing mages an actual anti-AD focused item to reduce the feeling of unfairness would be cool.

HalcyonDwellerApr 7, 20178 votes

THIS!!! I've been stressing out about the defensive itemization for AP casters and you've found the words I couldn't! Thank you :D

RiotRiotRepertoirApr 7, 20179 votes

Any consideration to providing mages an actual anti-AD focused item to reduce the feeling of unfairness would be cool.

Not sure it's fair to say Zhonya's isn't "an actual anti-AD focused item" (seems like a very subjective call, which is fair in its own way). If it's more about Seeker's being weak or unappealing (no unique noticeable effect other than stats) or not having stackable options (Maw+Mercurial, for example), that seems like a reasonable point of view.

I was operating under the assumption that the two groups would need only viable option to fight the opposing damage type, as long as it was clearly an effective one worth the purchase. For example, I thought that Banshee's being an AP focused anti-magic option would suffice, since it would clearly be useful in its effect, without needing to stack a bunch of additional MR on top of it. Similarly, a balanced version of this GA should be the only AD/Armor item needed, if it is clearly useful for its intended purposes. My thought was that players would prefer this over feeling like they should have to stack a bunch of similar items to get the output they wanted, but that could be a false assumption.

Thanks for the feedback. I'll be thinking about it.

LandorinApr 8, 20176 votes

I was operating under the assumption that the two groups would need only viable option to fight the opposing damage type, as long as it was clearly an effective one worth the purchase.

I think this would be nice in the ideal case. But what can end up happening is that because AD champions have several options, they can choose to stack Maw, Edge of Night and QSS and get like 100 MR with 3 great anti-mage passives. There's no option for a Mage to do the same against a heavy AD comp.

The other issue with Banshee's Veil as I see it is that it's disproportionately effective against some champions. Against someone like Xerath, it's basically useless because it will be stripped off instantly. Against someone like Fizz, it completely nullifies any chance of an all-in and probably forces a Hextech item buy just to be able to pop the shield. That's a much bigger disparity than Zhonya's or GA or any of those anti-AP AD items have.

HellioningApr 8, 20177 votes

Zhonya's is almost as effective against a mage as it is against an AD champ, though.

Cosmic WarperApr 8, 20175 votes

{quoted}

Zhonya's is almost as effective against a mage as it is against an AD champ, though.

because the active doesn't scream "anti ad". It just screams "avoid damage/cc and hope you aren't left to rot when you get out of stasis"

Earl EulrichApr 8, 20174 votes

while you think about it...please consider making serious changes to QSS. right now the item is just ridiculous and leads to very binary gameplay (->snowball, get QSS and remove all chances of the opponent catching you out of position and come back or fall behind and probablydie to Malzahar over and over) - and if you donßt remove it finally add some upgrade for tanks and mages, as QSS is just 100%required in some matchups which absolutly won´t be migitated by getting a Zonias or GA or whatever voodoo.

SkyroarApr 8, 201714 votes

{quoted}

Not sure it's fair to say Zhonya's isn't "an actual anti-AD focused item" (seems like a very subjective call, which is fair in its own way). If it's more about Seeker's being weak or unappealing (no unique noticeable effect other than stats) or not having stackable options (Maw+Mercurial, for example), that seems like a reasonable point of view.

I was operating under the assumption that the two groups would need only viable option to fight the opposing damage type, as long as it was clearly an effective one worth the purchase. For example, I thought that Banshee's being an AP focused anti-magic option would suffice, since it would clearly be useful in its effect, without needing to stack a bunch of additional MR on top of it. Similarly, a balanced version of this GA should be the only AD/Armor item needed, if it is clearly useful for its intended purposes. My thought was that players would prefer this over feeling like they should have to stack a bunch of similar items to get the output they wanted, but that could be a false assumption.

Thanks for the feedback. I'll be thinking about it.

Zhonya is a weird item because it's useful against all kinds of burst (AD or AP), and not that stellar against AD otherwise (active is underwhelming against sustained damage). It would make more sense if it offered health instead, or a combination of armor and MR.

If, for example, it offered health, you would be free to add a new AP-armor item without worrying about players stacking both of them. But that item couldn't be an AP guardian angel, though, as having access to both stasis effects would be really annoying.

Hexdrinker is also one of the strongest counter items in this game. It's extremely effective. Ap casters have nothing that gets close to its efficiency.

In contrast, seeker's armguard needs stacking, offers nothing beside stats, and if you don't need burst protection, there's not much incentive to upgrade a armguard to a zhonya, as you won't get any armor bonus for that. This means that, in many games, I buy a ninja tabi + armguard to defend against a strong AD team, but usually delay my Zhonya's purchase because I'd rather spend my 1700 gold in something else besides a few extra AP points and an active that might not be useful, depending on the context.

VekknaApr 7, 201730 votes

Can you stop feeding ADs idiot-proof reactive life-saving items and components?

item 3155 item 3156 item 3053 item 3026 item 3139 item 3140

While APs get item 3157 and item 3048 that are both proactive and have penalties attached.

ƒrostγApr 7, 20179 votes

{quoted}

Can you stop feeding ADs idiot-proof reactive life-saving items and components?

While APs get and that are both proactive and have penalties attached.

You forgot the Edge of Night. Meanwhile AP casters have literally one item ( hourglass ) that helps them survive against AD bruisers/ assassins. This isn't fair, and now with the changes to the tank items they are getting an another indirect nerf.

VekknaApr 7, 201714 votes

Edge is proactive, though. I don't have a problem with that design.

I have a problem with AD items that passively save AD champs from death when they get picked. If a mage gets picked with a cc, they can't even Zhonya's unless they survive the pick.

I just think the number of AD items with reactive or passive "lolnope" procs is overbearing in low elo. In gold and plat, players make positioning errors all the time, and these AD procs do too much heavy lifting when it comes to avoiding punishment.

The opposite is true of AP, where Zhonya's is a spectacular playmaker in high elo, but in low elo it's not great for carrying your mistakes. Most of the times you would use it reactively to save yourself, it's not even activatable because you got hit by a tornado. Or Kha or Rengo killed you faster than the human reaction speed.

VexilusApr 8, 20177 votes

I generally stop going zhonyas with mages (I main Xerath and Vel'koz, but I do play other mages every so often) because the stasis isn't really worth it, sure it's good on champs like fizz or ekko who are waiting for CDs and other outplay options. But with mages like Lux, Xerath, and Vel'koz if you end up in a position where you need to zhonyas either you stasis and sweat profusely as the enemy champs sip their tea and wait to kill you, or get CC'd and die before you even have a chance to zhonyas.

I do however kinda like the banshee's changes, as weird as it is seeing the stats swapped, but I do agree this update is heavily lowering the usefulness of AP champs

if not defensive item choices at least give us some new interesting passives to work with

WinterkillApr 7, 201721 votes

I stated this in the last thread, but what are you going to do to compensate all of the AP champions that are going to be affected by the increase in MR, CC blocking and HP regen to tanks and items? You didn't address the problems with AP champions and their itemization like you did with AD and ADC champions. AD and ADC champions can abuse each other's items and you didn't make armor pen and lethality exclusive to specific roles. You can sit here and tell me it is going to be balanced, but I will tell you right now it will not.

item 3151 item 3135 item 3020 - AP champions only have 3 magic pen items.

item 3147 item 3814 item 3036 item 3071 item 3033 item 3142 - AD and ADC champions have almost 6 items to choose from that they can use against all of the armor you are giving tanks and items.

item 3151 item 3165 - The effects only apply and are useful when they are at a specific amount of health and when the AP champion does a specific amount of health to the enemy.

item 3033 - The effect applies to any enemy the AD or ADC attacks.

Are you not aware of how one-sided this game is going to be because of all these changes? Why did you not look into other options to address issues AP champions are going to have because of these changes you are making to items and champions? Why did you not introduce more diversity in the items for AP champions like you did with AD and ADC champions?

You essentially are going to be punishing any player that likes to play an AP champion. You took the time to introduce all these items that AD and ADC champions can abuse together to offer a wide variety of options and playstyles for them, but you ignored any feedback when players brought it up to you last year during the Mage Update.

Do you care? What are you going to do when you see almost every AP champion falling very behind and doing absolutely nothing? What are you going to do to address issues with two items that AP champions can use against tanks but won't be able to because of all the MR you are adding?

VexilusApr 8, 20178 votes

Nothing will be done until people start building AD builds on ap champs like Fizz.... and Ekko... and even Lulu sometimes.

And while I get your idea, item 3147 item 3814 item 3142 aren't good against armor stackers leaving only BC and the LW item builds

Also yea the morellonomicon passive is pretty useless, because most of the champs who build it are burst mages, and having the grevious wounds apply at 35% health is useless anyway when burst mages generally have one shot potential when they're fed anyway. that passive has more usefulness on a support item but even then it would just get outclassed by the ADC building Mortal Reminder.

I'd say either replace that passive with a more fitting one, or remove it and drop the price.

Tangent aside, the fact of the matter is AD champs have 3 items that lower armor for squishies while also having pretty strong effects, as well as 3 items to use against tanks that also have rather powerful effects (less so BC but it fits in the middle of working against tanks and non tanks)

Mages have Liandry's Torment and Boots for lowering MR on squishes, and then just Voidstaff for tanks. Void staff doesn't even do anything else, just gives the %MR drop.

Mages either need more variety options or better item effects, as well as needing more defensive capabilities so you don't see mages building QSS because it's literally the only option other than cleanse (which doesn't stop suppression and takes a summoner spell slot)

These class updates are just showing more and more how limited mages are

SpideraxeApr 7, 201715 votes

Repertoir are you guys going to change around Titanic Hydra to compensate for the lowering of some HP on items

Jeddy017Apr 7, 20179 votes

And item 3053 's too while you're at it.

ModAcademy KaynApr 7, 20172 votes

Last I checked, Titantic Hydra was always meant for Juggernauts, those who are building more health than resistances normally because of their innate defensives/sustain. Other than Shen and Sion, I don't see a whole lot of other tanks who take it.

Jeddy017Apr 7, 20173 votes

But a lot of Juggernauts uses tank items, which are losing health. Adding health to titanic help Juggers who might come out weaker after all the changes.

RiotRiotRepertoirApr 7, 20178 votes

Possibly. Titanic (and also Cinderhulk or Sterak's) is nerfed by many of its synergy items now having less Health. They're also indirectly buffed by virtue of having more Health relative to those items, so I wouldn't want to overreact, if we did anything for Titanic.

6SfoolApr 8, 20174 votes

Would you want to make any changes to the damage Titanic does? It's a huge part of the reason tanks can burst people down fast, and I think that's holding them back.

Sire HippingtonApr 8, 20175 votes

Titanic Hydra should get adressed anyway, it currently offers way to much burst for tanky builts. It's pretty absurd that even on ad scaleing champs, it offers superior burst to Ravenous hydra, which clearly should be the more agressive of the two. I think it's time to shift some power from the burst active onto either more survivabillity or sustained dps(the on-hit) to give it a clearer niche as item for tanky dps champs that thrive in extendet combats rather than dropping some burst.

Sexy Jack RabbitApr 7, 201713 votes

This is hyper contradictory. You speak about the removal of Crit reduction, but then talk about changes to pen items. But you even said that those Pen changes MIGHT NOT go through.

This update is just going to end up being a GIANT buff to the fighter class. Gangplank Yasuo and Tryndamere specifically. Maybe instead of ignoring these outliers like you did with Armor Pen adcs (Because that worked out so well), maybe take them into consideration to begin with, and don't let them dominate the game for 4 patches straight while you say "We're still testing", because frankly people are sick of listening to that same excuse.

You know from EXPERIENCE that ignoring certain classes when updating item is a TERRIBLE idea. Don't make the same mistake twice.

Risk of FateApr 7, 201711 votes

With so many items being made towards MR, is there any possibility of changes to Rabadon's Deathcap? It's too expensive of an item for a single raw stat. I often think of it as the mage version of Infinity Edge. Maybe lower the AP and add a tiny bit of Magic Penetration? There's not really much in the way for mages to deal with tanks apart from Void Staff.

I remember getting cap as a second item way long ago. Now I hardly ever buy the thing because 1) I don't have enough slots to make the base components worth it or 2) if I build it early, I'm losing out on statistically better items including Morello's and Rylai's.

The Yetii RiderApr 7, 201711 votes

I can understand why you removed Randuin's Crit reduction as a way to help marksmen.

I just don't think the compensation is enough. There's no reason to buy it now. It's not a unique item and it doesn't create any high impact moments. Putting too much power into the active when it generally doesn't matter to tanks anyway (since they have large amounts of AOE cc already) is counter-intuitive, unless you're planning on Randuin's Omen being purchased more by divers and juggernauts than by tanks, and if that's the case, why is it being messed with now?

Keeper of TreesApr 7, 20178 votes

My major issue with the removal of crit reduction from Randuins is the loss of an item to counter non-marksmen crit users, such as Trynd and Yasuo who usually have a much shorter ramp period for an equal or greater gain. Without Randuins to slightly counter them (right now it still feels pretty useless anyways) how much harder will playing against them be?

Deep Terror NamiApr 7, 20176 votes

I hope the lack of Ohmwrecker attention now means it will be looked at for the Support update instead of removed.

GinoSoldierApr 7, 20174 votes

Ohmwrecker redesigned as a support item would be great indeed. I always thought Vanguard Support champions could use an item to crank up towerdives, and maybe break in some overly long sieges.

Having items that aid a support in aiding allies is all well and fine, but if we want supports to get recognition, a few items designed to mess with the enemy team would definitely help.

mailbox headApr 7, 20176 votes

{quoted}

Why would we remove Randuins Crit Damage Reduction? Champions investing in crit tend to have very delayed power curves, where they feel like they need a bunch of their items to come online before they can really impact the game.

Yasuo says "hi" once again. Can we just get rid of his 2x crit passive cancer already?

edit: formatting.

ƒrostγApr 7, 20176 votes

The changes to the tank items and the Abyssal is going to kill Lissandra for good. First you nerfed her damage, her base stats, her core items and now even the Abyssal got hit. She was in a bad spot ever since last year, but now she will be Azir tier.

AbyssphereApr 7, 20175 votes

Would it be possible to take a look at Liandry's in response to these changes? I'm not so much talking about its power level here (though there's clearly nerfs coming with tank item changes) but its actual purpose in the game. Liandry's was added to dissuade health stacking and give mages another tool to help kill tanks, but with health stacking basically being made impossible, the MR tanks have access to being increased and an MR item being added that is specifically effective against damage over time effects, it feels like the item no longer exists as a "safety valve" against high HP/low MR tank builds emerging. It's also arguably no longer actually a desirable pickup against a tank that needs killing because anti-magic damage tools now focus specifically on reducing sustained damage, meaning "just get as much burst as possible" feels like it might be the best response to tanks now.

This basically means that the item is pushed even further into basically just being a poke amplifier/raw AP + MPen stat stick and I feel like that's a really poor space for the item to exist in, particularly as alongside Void Staff it was the only thing really pretending that mages had access to any kind of effective anti-tank tools in the shop. Are you guys considering/would you guys consider any changes to the item to help it make more sense in this new high MR, low HP environment, whether that be outright stating that it's not supposed to be a tank melter anymore (perhaps shifting it away from a %HP paradigm?) or making changes to it to allow it to fill that niche more effectively? Ever since I've played this game Liandry's has been an item with a confused identity but I feel this rework finally pushes it to the point of just making no sense altogether. This feels like a good opportunity to put some work into improving that situation.

SkyroarApr 8, 20175 votes

Won't the MR/lvl champion buff screw with flat magic penetration items? (Sorceror shoes, Hauting Guise). Those two will be a lot less appealing now. Maybe you should consider adding a third flat MP option? Perhaps on an item like Luden's Echo, or something? Or, alternatively, a stackable (flat or scaling) MP passive, kind of like a magic version of Black Cleaver? (I always found it weird how Void Staff is mandatory to all mages, burst, poke and battle mages, while physical users can choose between Black Cleaver and Last Whisper).

VekknaApr 7, 20174 votes

Banshee's Veil harming mid lane Many players are expressing concern over the mechanical changes to Banshee's Veil, primarily worried it will become a must-buy in mid lane and ruin opportunities for lane aggression there. The cooldown of the spell shield on PBE is tuned pretty aggressively at the moment, so I definitely think this concern is valid. I'll be looking at making some small tweaks so that it is much more clearly not a frequent lane purchase, whether that means adjusting the cooldown model or the statline or the cost.

Add a shield that procs passively at 25% hp.

Why is Guardian Angel an AD only item? Simply put, we tested an AP version alongside the AD version, and the AP version just wasn't all that appealing since those characters can mostly just resort to building Zhonya's anyway. Consequently, giving many AP champions access to several moments of stasis didn't seem like the right call for the overall fun of the game.

The AD trend is that the items save the player. The AP trend is that the player proactively uses the items. That skill gap needs to be addressed. Well, it needs to be acknowledged then addressed.

Why would we remove Randuin's Crit Damage Reduction? Champions investing in crit tend to have very delayed power curves, where they feel like they need a bunch of their items to come online before they can really impact the game.

Yasuo item 3046

Delayed power curve?

Adaptive Helm is too good against X champion Adaptive Helm's purpose is to be the Health/MR item that feels especially good to pick up against powerful sustained magic damage threats, so in that way, we want to make sure it is effective at that.

Morgana sustained magic damage? Taliyah sustained magic damage? Velkoz sustained magic damage? Katarina sustained magic damage? Diana sustained magic damage? Akali sustained magic damage?

Magic Damage dealers are getting the short end of the stick

Yes.

...champions looking to get tanky tend to buy a lot more Armor items than MR items...

Because they need a lot fewer MR items to deal with mages. Because there is less mpen available. Because hp on armor items is still effective vs mages because they lack dps. Because scaling MR gets to really high values.

They buy more armor because AP isn't typically threatening enough to warrant multiple MR items.

ChaddyFantomeApr 8, 20171 votes

The AD trend is that the items save the player. The AP trend is that the player proactively uses the items. That skill gap needs to be addressed. Well, it needs to be acknowledged then addressed.

Excuse me?

item 3139 item 3814

And funnily enough the new Banshees seems to shut this claim down.

NineTailedMysticApr 8, 20173 votes

Yes, when the new Banshee's will likely stagnate mid lane.

ChaddyFantomeApr 8, 20174 votes

Banshee's/Abyssal swap is confusing Yes. Agree, and we'll be trying to come to the solution that makes the most sense.

I'd suggest calling the Items Banshee's Scepter and Abyssal Veil respectively. I think that would get the message across fairly well.

Oblivious DenialApr 8, 20176 votes

Those names actually sound pretty cool.

AirKingNeoApr 8, 20174 votes

If Adaptive Helm works against Kayle's E then the item will be insanely too effective against her. She'd need a massive passive MR shred buff (to like 25%) or the item shouldn't effect magic damage autos (like lich bane, Morde's Q, kayle's E, teemo's E, ect).

ƒrostγApr 8, 20174 votes

I agree with you guys. Ap champs lost a lot from their power since season 5. This is especially true in Lissandra's case for example. All of her core items got nerfed and she got no buffs to her damage in return. Now even a support Zyra/Brand with full support items can outdamage her.

ChønklordApr 9, 20174 votes

@Meddler;

I'm really happy that you / Riot are paying attention to the feedback from players on the boards here and in comments; it really shows you care what the community thinks. I also think that what you've said so far in this post 'update' on the durability patch feedback from us is pretty on point and seems to be looking better (more balanced) than before.

With that being said, I personally still have some reservations/questions/concerns -- which I believe some others out there will agree with me as well:

Mages being too 'weak' with the durability items/changes patch As someone who regularly plays mages a lot and most of my champion pool are AP champs, I'm really glad you're at the very least, taking the "hidden nerf" with the MR changes into consideration when it comes to Mage damage output as a whole. While the decrease in overall health / item stats may help with that, I still feel with the introduction of EoN and now another active cast spellshield plus the addition of MR/level, etc, will significantly impact specific AP champions which already are doing poorly. For example: . Has there been any consideration given into giving some slight tweaks to these champions to compensate for the upcoming patch(es) -- particularly Karthus, who relies heavily on his ultimate to get ahead in games?
Health stats being nerfed Now I know you mentioned you're going to try to take into consideration the changes to health / health stat on items for other champions/classes, but is there anything you can give the community insofar as to what particular consideration(s) you're giving to Juggernauts/Fighter class? I.e. champions like: whom depend a lot on health stats to be their best.

Lil SoybeanApr 9, 20173 votes

So, to be clear, 9 extra MR is like removing 9 Magic Pen from Karthus' late-game every single game when he tries to kill squishies. And as for tanks, they're now immortal to his sustained damage regardless because of Adaptive Helm.

Why are you doing this

do you have any idea what it's like playing mages vs tanks with just one magic resist item (spirit visage)? They often tank every single ability you fire at them, without trying to dodge at all, ignore it, sustain it back up, and then casually burst you for ~80% max hp if they ever feel like turning and fighting back.

I don't know what gave you the idea that it's a problem for there to be a type of mage (sustained magic damage dealers) that can actually almost deal with tanks