Boards›Dev Corner

Clothesline Karma Mini-Retrospective

RiotRiot NeuroCat·10/1/2018, 9:37:33 PM·1 votes·136,428 views

Hi all,

I figured I’d take some time to run you through one of our recent explorations on Karma, bringing back the clothesline tether on her W. As a forewarning, the changes below are not shipping.

By “clothesline”, I’m referring to the pre-2013 rework Karma ability, where her tether affected enemies and allies that passed through it. This is a pretty unique mechanic in League, and we wanted to see if we could give Karma something unique gameplay-wise, so the direction seemed valuable. However, we did intentionally move away from it in 2013 - to quote us, “Spirit Bond’s “clothesline” gameplay is really cool, but it’d work better on a tank champion that has an easier time jumping into the fray”. We wanted to validate or invalidate this, since Karma’s role and League in general has changed significantly over the last 5 years.  

For the first iteration, we took the old clothesline and refined the spell to the most fun parts to play with. Karma’s old W hasted allies and slowed enemies on contact - however, the gameplay around maneuvering it into enemies was much richer than the gameplay around your allies running through it, so we focused on versions that only clothesline’d enemies to keep the spell clean. Additionally, the clothesline play is reasonably difficult to pull off, especially in an uncoordinated environment, so we attached a higher reward to successful plays - roots and stuns over slows. Here’s the first version in action.

This version was fun, but had some issues. First, the level of attention that it required was high. If Karma put it on an ally, they would need to know what was happening and position themselves well to get the best effect, which can be difficult in a hectic teamfight. When thrown onto an enemy, they could easily misplay by running too close to an ally, accidentally stunning their friend. Karma, as a backline mage, didn’t have a ton of control over the movement of the tether unless she was willing to put herself at significant risk or had the luck of a super well coordinated ally.  

In the next iteration, we wanted to put a lot more control into the Karma player’s hands. First, we removed the ability to attach it to enemies, and replaced that with a free target cast. If she didn’t have an ally to attach to, she could separate her own spirit from her body (as a pet) and have it move towards a position, giving her some control around both ends of the clothesline. This however, would still put Karma in danger if she wanted full control over the play, so we made the mantra give her a fairly reliable amount of safety. On mantra cast, she would gain massive damage reduction and movespeed towards enemies for a few seconds, and she could recast the spell to “spirit walk” to the other end of her tether. It looked something like this.

This version was quite cool, but still had some issues. Giving Karma safety on her Mantra was working as intended (folks made some really awesome Rakan-esque plays), but Karma players didn’t want to dive into the backline to execute well on the spell. When Karma wasn’t diving, the large ally coordination burden was still a pretty large issue in our tests.  

The last large iteration we tested was different, trying to push the clothesline in an entirely new direction. Rather than having limited control over your spirit and full control over your own movement, we tried a version where on cast, Karma’s inputs would control her spirit’s movement while her own body was channeling (with the ability to cancel the channel if need be). In this way, she could remain on the backline while maneuvering the clothesline with less risk. A natural extension from this was the ability for her to “proxy-cast” from her spiritual projection, which we also prototyped. However, this mechanic ended up dominating the interaction (though was pretty fun to play), as you can see in this gif.

After this, we realized we were veering pretty hard away from the core promise of the clothesline mechanic, and thus put it into the icebox to explore different directions on Karma. In the end, we aren’t shipping the clothesline on Karma, but honestly, our playtesters had a ton of fun with it in the versions we tried. I could see this mechanic being really successful and fun with characters that have reliable ability to get into the backline, have flanking patterns, and/or have high mobility.  

Hope this was an interesting look into our design process. I’ll be around periodically if you have any questions.

-NeuroCat

100 Comments

IxtaliKing10/1/2018, 9:58:01 PM17 votes

That last version looks like a pretty fun spell. I'm kinda gutted the first version didn't work out, but I do see how the mechanic favours more of a Vanguard kit.

Elewd10/2/2018, 3:30:01 PM7 votes

THIS IS SO COOL. Oh my god can we do MORE of these or like "what this champions abilities used to look like" for new releases? Also i really really like the spirit projection clothesline thing with the proxy casting. i think it could be REALLY interesting in top player hands. You could always make normal one have a 50% slow, and mantra have the root so you can't just abuse it in lane nonstop?

SilverSquid10/1/2018, 10:03:45 PM5 votes

Thank you for the insight. That looked really fun!

Just out of curiosity tho: Old Karma was able to tether to minions and wards. I wonder if this would have made a difference for the first tether version?

Kadexe10/3/2018, 6:16:55 PM5 votes

That last version is really cool and I'd love to see it on a champion in the future.

BadgerDrool10/2/2018, 4:26:23 AM4 votes

Thanks for trying all the things NeuroCat!

I'm not terribly surprised the tests didn't fully work out. It is very interesting to see the spirit form versions. I had not thought of those ideas. The last implementation feels like it might work well on Morde of all things.

Clothesline was the biggest part of old Karma that necessitated a rework. It's worth noting that it worked best with melee champions in duo fights. Imagine a Xin or Irelia whose dashes put them into or past the enemy model. W procs immediately and off stuff they already want to do. A Garen just runs past with Q dash speed, procs, then Q Es on a slowed target because his Q (iirc) doesn't put him into the enemy model.

In contrast ranged champions with dashes had to put themselves greatly at risk to utilize the slow and damage of W. Something that could win a trade if they knew to do it (cause they'd also be close enough to shield bomb off of, so you'd get 2 extra damage spells in not just w). But as you said, burden of knowledge. They wouldn't and so old Karma support had a terrible time with terrible peel and only being able to use 40% of her kit.

So I do want to ask._ Did you test a handcuff shape?_ By that I mean, a tether between two targets and a small radius around both being the hit zone. And by small I mean small, like shorter then sunfire cape radius. There's a huge difference between having to run past an enemy (especially with champions being circles) and having to run into an enemy.

Blue Moon Wolf10/3/2018, 2:26:38 AM4 votes

I'll be honest, this is a really cool concept and I'm not even a big fan of Karma. would be cool to see this idea looked at for Wukong's decoy, it kind of looks like it has potential for how to improve his decoy in some way.

Galiö10/1/2018, 9:56:18 PM3 votes

Tbh option 2 would have been super cool

Deathfall10/1/2018, 9:59:20 PM3 votes

I kind of like the third one but I am stoked to see what happens with the W and Mantra W after this.

Superßoy10/2/2018, 12:09:32 AM3 votes

@Riot Neurocat Did you guys try bringing back old Karma's Mantra Charges? Maybe weakening them but giving her back two charges. Or were you guys focused on trying to make the clothesline spell work out?

Puddy10/2/2018, 8:14:39 AM3 votes

Does ''compelling gameplay'' really matter if its fun? Old clothesline gameplay was more fun, and if its more fun more people would enjoy and play it. As long as it doesnt create a toxic game for the enemies why does it matter? I think some champions could be more fun if the players came up with uses for the ability instead of being ''solved'' by riot beforehand.

BadgerDrool10/2/2018, 4:32:38 AM2 votes

New Karma's passive and Mantra cooldown are the most frustrating parts of the kit for me. So I'm fairly hopeful about these other things you've tested and can't reveal yet.

To clarify, her passive doesn't exist when Mantra is off cooldown and encourages risky aggression when on cooldown. Its feast or famine based on how safely Karma can get auto attacks and Qs in. The famine part feels really bad on places like ARAM when the enemy team is all ranged.

This is also why I've played way less Karma since Ultimate Hats removal. It just felt so good to have Mantra with a good base cooldown earlier in the game.

alekzu10/2/2018, 7:36:06 AM2 votes

Thank you for taking your time to show us the ideas and direction you tried to take, and still do. I was really hopeful for the clotheslining to return because it's one of the most unique mechanic that Karma had and the only one left that doesn't exist in some kind of a form in the game, possessed by other champs.

For the first iteration, we took the old clothesline and refined the spell to the most fun parts to play with. Karma’s old W hasted allies and slowed enemies on contact - however, the gameplay around maneuvering it into enemies was much richer than the gameplay around your allies running through it, so we focused on versions that only clothesline’d enemies to keep the spell clean. Additionally, the clothesline play is reasonably difficult to pull off, especially in an uncoordinated environment, so we attached a higher reward to successful plays - roots and stuns over slows. Here’s the first version in action. This version was fun, but had some issues. First, the level of attention that it required was high. If Karma put it on an ally, they would need to know what was happening and position themselves well to get the best effect, which can be difficult in a hectic teamfight. When thrown onto an enemy, they could easily misplay by running too close to an ally, accidentally stunning their friend. Karma, as a backline mage, didn’t have a ton of control over the movement of the tether unless she was willing to put herself at significant risk or had the luck of a super well coordinated ally.

I can see why it would work better on tanks especially when your allies don't pay attention to the ability. Karma is probably too squishy to risk re-positioning closer to her enemies. But I personally never really looked at the clothesline mechanic as something easy to pull out. Considering how much team-fight potential it would have it would look unfair to be easy. I always thought that it's something that all players have to consider but never occupy their mind all the time. Yes, sometimes the enemies or allies would forget about it and it's totally fine. This is precisely why I think it should be hard...and risky. That is where the trade off is. But I do understand at the same time why it would be unsatisfying especially considering how much lack of control it has. Way too hard in lower elos meanwhile way too overbearing in higher and competitive play.

In the next iteration, we wanted to put a lot more control into the Karma player’s hands. First, we removed the ability to attach it to enemies, and replaced that with a free target cast. If she didn’t have an ally to attach to, she could separate her own spirit from her body (as a pet) and have it move towards a position, giving her some control around both ends of the clothesline. This however, would still put Karma in danger if she wanted full control over the play, so we made the mantra give her a fairly reliable amount of safety. On mantra cast, she would gain massive damage reduction and movespeed towards enemies for a few seconds, and she could recast the spell to “spirit walk” to the other end of her tether. It looked something like this. This version was quite cool, but still had some issues. Giving Karma safety on her Mantra was working as intended (folks made some really awesome Rakan-esque plays), but Karma players didn’t want to dive into the backline to execute well on the spell. When Karma wasn’t diving, the large ally coordination burden was still a pretty large issue in our tests.

I find too much resemblance between this iteration and Pyke's E. I also agree that it isn't Karma's thing to dive the backline. It does look kinda interesting though not gonna lie.

The last large iteration we tested was different, trying to push the clothesline in an entirely new direction. Rather than having limited control over your spirit and full control over your own movement, we tried a version where on cast, Karma’s inputs would control her spirit’s movement while her own body was channeling (with the ability to cancel the channel if need be). In this way, she could remain on the backline while maneuvering the clothesline with less risk. A natural extension from this was the ability for her to “proxy-cast” from her spiritual projection, which we also prototyped. However, this mechanic ended up dominating the interaction (though was pretty fun to play), as you can see in this gif.

Probably the most fun of all the iterations you have shown us. But you state some really fair reasons why it didn't work out. It makes her feel too much like a mixure of a backline and "pet control" mage.

I also have a question for you NeuroCat. In your post you mention Karma a lot as a backline mage. For me a backline mage is an artillery mage or you can also interpret that, in Karma's case, as someone who stays behind and spams shields and bonds to her allies. I am pretty sure the community or at least majority of the people stated they were against it. I mean what else can you do except spam RQs or/and shields if you stay in the backline? It feels way too binary. Or am I interpreting it the wrong way? Could you clarify?

Again thank you so much for all the attempts to bring back something unique to the champion.

Ultîma10/3/2018, 7:40:32 PM2 votes

I really don't buy the solo-Q argument as there are plenty of characters with abilities that require some ally-coordination in the game. It's like saying Kalista's ult feels unsatisfying because some players don't understand how to use it. It's like... yeah, but people will learn and adapt. They always do. I'm really not convinced.

On another note, the Spirit-walking ability looks cool as hell, I really hope this sees the light of day in some iteration in the future.

Kiiroi Kensuke10/2/2018, 8:32:30 AM2 votes

Wow, this is such a great job, I’m pertty excited. But I really like the tank Karma playstyle I wish she could still heal from something...[sg-lulu]

deadstinger199910/2/2018, 9:03:15 AM2 votes

That seems like a really cool move but we have to consider the fact that she is already great in the game with her harass and all that.....As a Karma main I would love this change so much but pls don't over do it like u did with zoe RIOT !! [slayer-pantheon-thumbs]

Von Brohenheim10/2/2018, 1:28:23 PM2 votes

How is Pyke's E, Phantom Undertow, not a strictly better version of the "rich gameplay" and "unique design space" that the tether offers? It's basically an inverse version of Karma sending out her spirit, and it works because of Pyke's ridiculously good healing off gray health, which makes this super safe except against high burst or grievous wounds.

Don't misunderstand, I think Pyke is great, and aside from some kind of nerf on his gray health, he offers a useful and exciting strategic niche that I was initially worried he'd share with Thresh.

My first point is the two of them take up a LOT of design space as far as catchers go, and it seems like the Pyke design team already solved the Karma tether problem.

That said, it seems like your goal is to make Karma an Enchanter. Tethersand clotheslines strike me as a clearly intrinsically Catcher ability; Pyke has his E, Morgana the Catcher/Mage has her R. Do you and Karma players really want her going down this route? Or is her identity an Enchanter more tied to buffing, debuffing, and zoning with the Q nuke?

My second point is these two directions seem at odds with one another. If she has Catcher abilities AND buffs/shields, she runs the risks of an overloaded kit, and ending up here again in 12-18 months after a cascade of nerfs.

Thresh's shield is on his high CD ally escape tool, so you're punished for using it just for the shield. Morgana also has a restrictive CD, and it only shields magic damage and CC, so if you use it to follow up on every Q catch, you won't have it when you need to soak a jungler's or other support's CC.

If Karma gets some sort of clothesline, hook, or tether, it mandates any shield she has to be just as limited in application, or she'll end up back like she is now. Too limited, and she'll lack any kind of unique gameplay. I wonder how Karma players feel about dropping it entirely, so more power can be allocated elsewhere in her kit. Maybe the Q could get hard CC, or Inspire/Defiance makes the target Ghosted (move through units).

ShadowParker10/2/2018, 12:17:11 AM2 votes

Neurocat, is there a reason why you’re not gonna be a permanent addition to game design?

I guess I’m confused as to why this is just a temporary thing.

ZackTheWaffleMan10/2/2018, 7:10:17 PM2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Riot NeuroCat,realm=NA,application-id=A7LBtoKc,discussion-id=KaRmzNlN,comment-id=,timestamp=2018-10-01T21:37:33.223+0000)

The last large iteration we tested was different, trying to push the clothesline in an entirely new direction. Rather than having limited control over your spirit and full control over your own movement, we tried a version where on cast, Karma’s inputs would control her spirit’s movement while her own body was channeling (with the ability to cancel the channel if need be). In this way, she could remain on the backline while maneuvering the clothesline with less risk. A natural extension from this was the ability for her to “proxy-cast” from her spiritual projection, which we also prototyped. However, this mechanic ended up dominating the interaction (though was pretty fun to play), as you can see in this gif.

This seems like a really cool concept for an ability of a new champion. I'll be disappointed if it's never used.

Vekkna10/2/2018, 8:22:58 PM2 votes

This version was quite cool, but still had some issues. Giving Karma safety on her Mantra was working as intended (folks made some really awesome Rakan-esque plays), but Karma players didn’t want to dive into the backline to execute well on the spell. When Karma wasn’t diving, the large ally coordination burden was still a pretty large issue in our tests.

Why not allow her to throw the spirit at long range and have it move towards her over the span of X seconds?

Enemies that cross through the tether are slowed. Enemies hit by the spirit are damaged. On Mantra use, range is increased significantly and the spirit also heals/shields/and/or speeds allies it passes through.

Diving problem solved. Duality added.

DesuGamer10/3/2018, 2:38:30 PM2 votes

Thanks for those information what changes you were experimenting with. As a Karma player I can see issues. Karma

First and second way of changes: Those changes look interesting, but yeah, it's not something I would like to see on Karma. More like on someone who wants to dive into enemies and someone who is tanky enough. Old Karma WAS tanky because of her survivability and she could you it and dealt damage. Present Karma stands on backline but she is suppose to find harmony between being agressive and passive(like in her history :] ), so just standing on the backline to shields allies and poking enemies is fine as long as she needs to risk a bit sometimes. Her W is not that long, so she brings herself to danger now and this is good, but sometimes(especially when you are behind) W feels weak. Maybe it's too much time to snear enemies jumping on you or your adc or when you want to snear them is really easy to kill Karma. Jumping to her W'd ghost is not something for enchating-poke mage. She doesn't want to dive.

Third way: Looks cool, really. But Karma is not like pet-control mage. With that change it looks like Karmas would focus on their ghost to shot their Qs from longer safe distance or to get as close as they can to enemies' carry and shot Mantrad Q easy without taking too much risk than just use it to snear as much enemies as they can. It interesting playstyle, but I don't think it compares that good with Karma. Snearing more enemies with tether? Nice. Shooting Q from safe place? Nice, but just for Karma, not the enemies(as long as ghost doesn't have hp bar, but with being destroyable it seems a bit nonsense). Casting shields from ghost or Karma range? Or both? And one of the spells is just empowering her other spells. Idea of that ghost mechanic is nice but not so good at Karma's kit ;)

For me those changes are something I want to see I'd like to see actual passive being a Mantra's passive and Karma getting another one. When you have your Mantra there are no passive, but that passive is what makes her not to require charges for Mantra. In late game you can have 2-3 or more Mantras at teamfight and this is something I really like. I'd give her a bit shorter cooldown on early levels(just a little bit shorter) or gives her passive additional 0,5 second on first levels.

And something I would REALLY APPRECIATE to see: Healing herself AT START of W's animation not at the end of it. I really like you changed in 2013 from healing over time to instant at cast and the end of the spell, but as you said Karma needed it instantly. I had a lot of times where that W casting animation killed me, because it heals after animation. It's less than a second but still it has an impact. I would really, really appreciate if this change happens. Or make first 20% missing heal instantly and the second 20% over time of being tied to the enemy. If there are no changes for W now, those things I'm speaking of I believe could give her just a little bit of power for now.

Anyway, I'm happy you gave up on those changes but I like changing something in her W. Focused Resolve would be good candidate for changes but also moving her passive to Mantra and giving her something new would be okay.

I believe you can make something really nice to my favourite champions. Thanks again for some information.

Karma "We have learned as much as we have suffered."

chipndip110/1/2018, 10:05:23 PM2 votes

Just change W outright. Tethering as a back liner doesn't make much sense.

Harpie Lady10/3/2018, 3:56:28 AM2 votes

I really love that last reiteration. It really reminds me of the Yamanaka Clan in Naruto (If you're familiar with them). I think that having something similar to this, either on Karma or another new champion would be super cool as a concept.

Solidair310/1/2018, 11:11:24 PM1 votes

Well, I feel like this is about what I expected from any look into the tether. Glad the clothesline isn't coming back. I LOVE it in theory, but it's just too niche in its use.

Is this the end of your look into Karma, or will you be seeking other directions now?

Theorex10/2/2018, 2:38:09 AM1 votes

I don't support this change. Yes it is a buff that is going to lead into massive nerfs.

Why?

Look at Ryze. Complete shit in solo queue.

Really strong in pro play.

What do you think will happen when Karma gets something that requires teamwork to pull off? That she is magically going to be played just as well as pro play in solo queue?

Give her something real that can help solo queue. And make the pros adapt to that. They have 4 other people consistently that can work with to overcome hurdles. Me as a solo player, I can't climb a 4 man high wall by myself, and maybe 3 other people are there with me, but guess what we are still a bit short.

So again. Bad change. Don't do it. I wish you would have listened to me with the Malzahar change back in season 6, but no. A silly diamond 3 malzahar main, must not know anything about the game or the champion.

But HEY, KEEP IT UP RITO :) YOU'RE DOING A GREAT JOB WITH RYZE, AZIR, AND KALISTA. AND HERE SOON KARMA AGAIN.