Quick Gameplay Thoughts: March 7

RiotMeddler·3/7/2017, 5:45:57 PM·1 votes·56,062 views

Hi folks,

Some things we're thinking about below! Additionally, if there's something particularly on your mind gameplay wise you'd like to hear our thoughts on do throw that suggestion into the comments. Can't make any promises I'll be able to speak to it, or speak to it immediately at least, always on the lookout for new topics though.


Looking at struggling junglers

One of our focuses for the 7.6 development cycle is looking at champions who commonly jungle who are having too hard a time of it. We're expecting that'll mean we look at a range of champions and then make changes to a subset of that group. Currently being considered are Nunu, Fiddlesticks, Nidalee, Amumu, Jarvan and Volibear. You should see changes to some of those champs hit the PBE today, expect some others to follow and some to likely get reverted during the patch cycle as we test them.

Changes we're more confident in are Nid traps prioritizing big monsters over small plus Fiddle getting bonus E damage against monsters and from memory CD/range tweaks to Q/W respectively. For J4 and Nunu we're looking at W scaling and consume respectively, though need more testing on those to speak with confidence about how promising those directions are/aren't. Nothing concrete yet on Amumu or Volibear.


Shifting defensive stats from items to base stats

A couple of weeks ago I mentioned we were testing moving some stats from items to base stats, making vanguards, wardens and juggernauts at least more inherently tanky. We've concluded that approach wasn't working well enough overall, given it pushed a lot of champions towards more offensive itemization, risked blunting the difference between ahead and behind tanks too much and made some defensive purchases too unsatisfying/unimpactful.

We're still exploring other defensive item changes though and will be investigating a number of concepts (possible need for an item that's strong against sustained magic damage specifically, efficiency of double defensive item rushes from solo laners, tanks dying too fast in some circumstances late game etc). We won't necessarily end up with changes that touch on all or even any of exact those issues FYI, but figured there'd still be interest in hearing about the sorts of things we're considering.


Ninja Tabi

We've seen some recent spikes in Ninja Tabi use, especially in high Elo ranked. Still assessing whether that's reflective of Ninja Tabi being too strong (they are really gold efficient) or whether that's a natural and appropriate reaction to some teams stacking a lot of physical damage dealers who auto attack (any game the enemy team's running a jungle Graves for example Ninja Tabi's value goes up quite a bit). We'd like to get more confidence we've properly distinguished between an item being too strong and an item being an appropriate safety valve basically. More thoughts on that to follow at some point.


Aatrox

Aatrox's balance changes should be hitting the live servers shortly. We believe the direction they represent's a good one, as usual with larger sets of changes they'll likely throw his balance out a bit, one direction or the other, initially though. Given his optimal builds have likely changed moderately we also suspect he'll probably perform worse for a little while just after the changes than he will longer term as players experiment with builds and people unfamiliar with Aatrox give him a try.

256 Comments

GoLéon3/7/2017, 7:17:26 PM9 votes

I would like to address Phoenix Udyr Udyr in here, because he is currently also one of the struggling junglers.

Phoenix Udyr was one of the most potent champions in Season 6 with the introduction of Runic Echoes and the Sated Devourer +Rageblade combo. Patches pasted and Runic Echoes got nerfed, Devourer was replaced by a weaker item with Bloodrazor and Rageblade got another rework. This was combined with Udyr nerfs in Patch 6.4 and 6.7. Since then Udyr has fallen out of favor for alot of players. With the introduction of Season 7 all things that still held him in a decent spot got changed. SotA got replaced. Power farming, Udyrs most loved task, got flat out removed from the game and strong early game junglers like Kha'Zix or Graves are currently the best junglers in League of Legends. Udyr is known for his fast clears, which isn't the case at the moment. Champions like Shyvana are clearing just flat out fasters, which allows them to get earlier on to the map and secure river control. You could say, that compared to Shyvana and Master Yi , Udyr can gank, because of his bear. Udyr can stun, but he can't gapclose, which Shyvana and Master Yi can. These problems can be fixed by just changing some numbers. Here are some changes, Udyr Mains like DoublepainSits, who currently is the best Udyr player after LoLSkills ranking, came up with, to improve Udyr's early and mid game.

R: Phoenix Stance

Persistent Effect: 40 / 80 / 120 / 160 / 200 (+45%) --> 60 / 95 / 130 / 165 / 200 (+45%) Activation: 10 / 20 / 30 / 40 / 50 (+25%) --> 20 / 27.5 / 35 / 42.5 / 50 (+25%)

Udyr's Mid-Late game is completly OK, why the Level 5 numbers are the same, but his first clears are seriously lacking. These changes would allow him to get faster on the map and apply pressure on the lanes or in the enemy jungle much earlier.

E: Bear Stance

Movement speed bonus: 15 / 20 / 25 / 30 / 35% --> 20 / 23,75 / 27,5 / 31,25 / 35% Duration stays the same

Giving Udyr's level one Bear Stance a larger movement speed bonus helps Udyr's ganking alot. With every rework or new champion are coming more gap closers into the game (e.g. Warwick's Q, Camille's E). Having more movement speed on level 1 Bear Stance would improve Udyr's ganking alot.

**P: Monkey's Agility ** Adding the level 20 change, as mentioned by Meddler Also the Jax and Fervor of Battle treatment, so that the stacks fall of one at a time and not instantly.

Mana cost on all spells

The last idea I want to mention is the mana cost. Udyr has 270 - 292 base mana level 1 and 2. So after ~7-8 usages of Phoenix and Turtle he can only auto attack. This forces him to start blue buff most of the time, to have a healthier and faster clear.

Mana cost: 47 / 44 / 41 / 38 / 35 --> 43 / 41 / 39 / 37 / 35

These changes would improve his time after clearing the jungle, while being less dependent on blue buff in the early-mid game.

I would really like to hear your thoughts about these ideas.

Ereldra3/7/2017, 5:58:40 PM6 votes

A question about Ahri: Any nerf plans for her? She's got a quite high SoloQ-Winrate, and now that shes starting to come back into Pro-Play, probably even more after the Nerfs to LB and Ryze, it's probably warranted to be worried about her getting nerfed soon. What does your team think about her and her coming back into Pro-Play?

Also, thanks for doing this kind of posts, I think it's super informative to get a regular glimpse into what you and your team are thinking and planning!

Sahn Uzal3/7/2017, 5:50:38 PM6 votes

Really cool to hear something about the things you're testing, and how they're working out, rather than us just hearing it all at once when the update hits PBE.

I'm also pretty happy with the approach you're taking with Ninja Tabi's!

MakeItEasy4Lolis3/7/2017, 6:22:19 PM6 votes

Buff Aatrox base stats, those are really a big problem.

Also what about Udyr? Phoenix stance is pretty much useless in this meta

Illâoi Evê Siôn3/7/2017, 6:03:42 PM5 votes

Did you guys try out things like +% base Armor and +% base Magic Resistance and +% base Health as stats (to counter Tanks dying too quickly late game, and to make Tank items better on Tanks but not horrible on melee champs)? Any thoughts on that?

Also, thanks a lot for looking at Nunu. Do you think the Consume changes might help out lane Nunu, too, or are they just changes to Well Fed? (Support Nunu is starving in a lot of senses of the word)

######I also made a Warden item concept that converts AoE magic damage spells to single target damage here.

Hamentasch3/7/2017, 7:07:46 PM5 votes

Any thoughts on nerfing Ivern and Shaco? Correct me if I'm wrong, but their performance and winrate in soloq seems way out of line for an average jungler.

Also any thoughts on a jungle buff for Dr. Mundo and Rammus? Mundo really needs it more, he is so fun to play but right now he just doesn't perform.

Lil Soybean3/7/2017, 8:03:03 PM5 votes

What'sup Meddler. Any discussion about Karthus lately? I'd really like your personal opinion as well as to know whether he's been mentioned internally at all.

He has 2 main playstyles:

  1. Rylai's or Frostbelt early/All-in with exhaust level 1-3/Focus on landing Q's and dueling the enemy frequently to build a lead via solo kills.

  2. RoA early, take teleport, AFK farm from afar and never interact with the enemy laner until minute 40, then press R

My main concern is how you guys seem to be progressively gimping the first playstyle and forcing him into the much lower skill-expression, much less interactive, and much more boring 2nd playstyle.

Notable changes, in order:

  1. When DFT was released, Karthus, Brand, Malz etc. spiked in power. You nerfed Karthus' wall slow, saying that he should be chaining Rylai's to the initial slow to keep landing Q's. (Rylai's Q's slowed for 40% at the time.)

Then you nerfed DFT drastically but left Karthus' wall the same, and he dropped to around a 49% winrate.

  1. Next: The Rylai's changes.

Removing the isolated 35-40% slow he's had since his inception with it meant that he couldn't effectively chain-slow from his now incredibly weak wall slow, and pushed him further towards RoA AFK farm.

The sad part here was that RoA AFK farm Karthuses will find similar success but Rylai's-based dueling Karthuses are hit hard, so his general winrate floats at a decent level and you see no reason to help him out overall. Suppose if AP Ekko was gutted but he was still strong as a tank, so you saw a 50% winrate on him and thought - hey, he's doing fine, no need for increases to his AP damage.

3)Finally, the Exhaust nerf.
Exhaust clearly needs a nerf, but it's the key facilitator of the highest-level Karthus' strategies. They use Exhaust to all-in level 1-3 and get first blood. The 10 MR reduction removal is akin to giving those Karthuses 10 less Mpen for several seconds during their early-level all-ins. It heavily gimps his early kill potential, which was already fine-tuned to such a point that these high level Karthuses often secured the kills only by weaving auto attacks between Qs.

  1. Then I opened this thread and saw you mentioning the possible need of an item to deal with sustained magic damage. Bluh....

So, with this all in mind, I'm pretty afraid that you're cramming him tightly into a playstyle of 'Buy RoA, take Teleport, farm for 40 minutes, press R'. Any chance of a slight change to help the more skillful Karthus playstyle - that is, something to reward him better for landing Qs, or maybe a revert to his wall nerf to encourage him to go for Qs?

Thanks for reading. Please tell me your personal thoughts as well as whether he's been mentioned internally at all.

MinaZer03/7/2017, 11:11:56 PM4 votes

what happened to the Lissandra changes/buffs?

Predatorator3/7/2017, 6:55:47 PM3 votes

Honest question, how is volibear struggling? i'm not sure about his clears, but he actually seems pretty ok, he can get tanky in a good amount of time, and yet he retains good damage. but hey, i may have missed something. Any thoughts on skarner?

l MrD l3/7/2017, 9:08:52 PM3 votes

do you feel like the items for AD champions and AP champions are more favoured to AD? It sort of feels like AD champions have too much variety? want MR with damage maw or edge of night or just a simple deaths dance or steraks gage could help beat a mage. For AP champions need MR? abyssal! but this isnt very efficient on all champions. The AD items feel too rewarding IMO and its not just but what are your thoughts?

Syldaen3/7/2017, 6:36:34 PM2 votes

out of all these junglers , i didn't see udyr getting any changes , we already only see him once in a bloodmoon , this patch is a good one to help him out in it

Spideraxe3/7/2017, 6:19:20 PM2 votes

Hey Meddler can I ask for your thoughts on if J4 needs larger scope amounts of work

Poluact3/7/2017, 7:43:17 PM2 votes

Have you considered buffing Hunter's Talisman to help tank and mage junglers with early clears?

Häxel3/7/2017, 6:02:06 PM2 votes

Hi, i would like to hear your thoughts on 2 ideas i have heared and thought about myself too: 1: Regarding Ninja Tabi's, do you think making the amount of % damage reduction from the passive scaling with bonus armor would help to tune it down, so the actuall 12% work just for tanks going armor and not for assasins like talon/Zed, which with only bonus armor from runes should have than maybe something like 4-8% reduction? 2: If you say some tanks die in some circumstances too fast how about an item which reduces %healthmaxdamage dealt to the user? Like current game state has much %healthmaxdamage, even on supports if you look on malzahar and brand support. So if a tank gets ulted by malzahar and 2,3 people attack him he rly melts down. This new item would help against that and you could combine it with your idea of an item beeing strong vs sustained magic dmg.

Shadowwalker3/8/2017, 1:39:03 AM2 votes

Hey Meddler do you think Aatrox will be subject to any base stat buffs at least? Or some buffs as you guys observe people play him?

robotmaster3/7/2017, 5:54:17 PM2 votes

What's happening with crit marksmen? Do you believe they are in an ok spot or need some more work?

Illâoi Evê Siôn3/7/2017, 11:58:35 PM1 votes

You're changing Shen's ult a little because it's used too aggressively too often, right? What's to stop Galio from combo-ing his ult with a Diver for the same effect? He is supposed to be a Warden, right?

Sqkerg3/7/2017, 6:20:17 PM1 votes

Any thoughts on Kindred? Do you think the marking qol buffs on the PBE will be enough?