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Quick Gameplay Thoughts: May 4

RiotMeddler··1 votes·53,231 views

Morning all!


Usual Disclaimers

These posts will often contain talk about future work we're doing, or planning to do, that isn't yet guaranteed to ship. The nature of the work could change or, depending on what we discover, projects mentioned may get put delayed or even stopped. If you'd like to see a Tweet whenever a new one of these posts goes up: https://twitter.com/RiotMeddler


Mid-Season so far

It's really early in 7.9's release, some preliminary thoughts though:

  • Sejuani - Is clearly too strong. We made some late changes just before the patch locked a week ago and internal testing between then and now left us pretty convinced we'd made her too strong. What we've seen so far supports that so we'll be hotfixing some nerfs out to her, probably later today. Likely changes are a reduction in starting health (600-560), higher passive CD (15/12/9 instead of 9 at all levels) and lowered base damage on W (20-40+30-170 instead of 30-50+40-180). Still locking down exact details though, so those could change slightly.

  • Zac - Is probably too weak by a noticeable margin. We'll be assessing him more today, depending on how he does we're considering some slight hotfix buffs however, which would be increases to his Q slow (0.5s per trigger instead of 0.25s) and E damage (80-280 instead of 80-240, thinking being that that change was an unnecessary nerf).

  • Rift Herald - Too early to say much yet. In most games so far people aren't optimizing with it, optimizing against it or even taking it consistently. Keeping a really close eye on how she does, given potential game impact's really high, no conclusions yet though.

  • New Items - Nothing seems too out of line so far. Having said that it often takes a while for adoption rates of new items to get to the appropriate level for their power, so it's possible there's some subtle but strong stuff out there we just haven't seen revealed yet.


Zac's Voice

We'll be looking to do a bit of tweaking to how Zac's voice pitch changes with his health in 7.10. Currently that'll probably involve adjusting the thresholds where the pitch changes kick in (probably too frequent right now). Feedback on that much appreciated if you've had a chance to play new Zac.


** Developing Features for the New Client**

While we've started swapping some regions over fully to the new client that's not the case globally yet. That means that until we've got all regions over (we're working on it) we'll still need to take the old client into account and can't release things that affect all players (like pick/ban changes) that only work in the new client. Getting there, but not quite there yet.

219 Comments

Squidblimp16 votes

Hi Meddler. Here's some Zac Mains' thoughts on the changes:

https://www.reddit.com/r/thesecretweapon/comments/695nb5/to_riot_shrieve_our_overall_opinion_on_the_zac/

About the voice, we like the pitch change, but we want it to happen around 30 or 35% HP left, not higher. And we also don't like how it also speeds up too, the pitch change is enough.

Also, the main issue is the E CC nerf for us.

Martian Spartan3 votes

.

Shadow Hazard3 votes

Riot has been known to get input from the champ mains subreddits on more than one occasion.

RiotMeddler6 votes

Yep. They're a useful, though not comprehensive of course, source of feedback.

Shadow Hazard1 votes

I understand that. On the more related discussion on people complaining about zac's lack of damage. I think any increase in damage is a bad idea for a champ that has hard CC on 3 of his abilities. Frankly in that sense zac is the healthiest of the 3 updated tanks, mao's saplings do way too much damage, and of course you have already pointed out sej's issue with damage. Frankly I think riot needs to take a sweeping look at % health damage, there has never been a release or update of a champ with %health damage turning out healthy.

Ralanr5 votes

Sion has %health damage and is very healthy.

Shadow Hazard4 votes

Fizz has that issue ekko had that issue fiora had that issue vayne had that issue kogmaw had that issue maokai had/has that issue sej HAS that issue the list can go on. if they had % health damage at any point it likely coincided with a time when their damage was out of hand. there are more champs that have been and issue then there are that haven't.

TehNACHO10 votes

Woah okay back up.

Fizz and Ekko broke because it allowed them to function in a way outside of their intended purpose. You can say something similar about Fiora, but to be entirely frank it was just a tuning problem at the time. She still does the exact same thing she did back then, but nobody complains about her nearly as much.

Vayne's issue used to be, ironically, her Flat damage. Part of her flat stats got removed with a minor buff to her % damage and she came out more balanced than before.

Kog'Maw's 5.0 AS broke the game. He's fine otherwise, EVERYBODY recognized it was his attack speed that was the problem.

I'm not sure when Maokai really had a damage issue.

Sej is overtuned and getting hotnerfed. Plus, she's always been the tank that hits the hardest.

% Health Damage on Assassins has the potential to break them, but every other example has been another component of their kit being broken or the champion not being broken at all, just overtuned.

You're associating % Health damage with being broken in the same way that people drown more when Nicolas Cage is in a movie.

Gotted2 votes

{quoted}

Yep. They're a useful, though not comprehensive of course, source of feedback.

Stop by r/RengarMains we'd love to discuss a great many things at length if you have time. We would even schedule something or could prepare a list? Let us know!

Squidblimp2 votes

It's a subreddit for Zac mains. Most of the best Zac players in the world congregate here. Also, the most passionate Zac mains reside here too.

RiotMeddler3 votes

Reddit can be a good source of feedback, like Boards though it's pretty heavily dominated by feedback from just a couple of regions so needs to be treated with caution.

Avelden2 votes

Wait, why does the location of the feedback matter? Shouldn't that be irrelevant?

RiotMeddler3 votes

The feedback itself's great regardless of where it's coming from. If you're only listening to feedback from a couple of regions you're potentially missing a lot of stuff unless those regions happen to be representative of everyone else on the issue in question though.

RiotMeddler7 votes

We'd been kicking around 25-30%, so that's a pretty good match with other feedback we've got too.

E CC duration's one we're going to wait and see a bit on. It's certainly a noticeable power hit, at the same time though we need to ensure the E doesn't give a guaranteed R cast.

Sad Tyrant4 votes

THATS THE FUCKING POINT, REWARD ZAC FOR LANDING IT THE E

do not wait and see, if you do not want Instant R casts, do not make R bufferable while in E, problem solved.

enjoy the l00t4 votes

[{quoted}](name=Sad Tyrant,realm=OCE,application-id=A7LBtoKc,discussion-id=J6vZg0wr,comment-id=000c00020001,timestamp=2017-05-04T18:14:39.482+0000)

THATS THE FUCKING POINT, REWARD ZAC FOR LANDING IT THE E

do not wait and see, if you do not want Instant R casts, do not make R bufferable while in E, problem solved.

zac is greatly rewarded for hitting E. knockup, damage, and nearly guaranteeing your channeled ultimate to hit them. if not, you can still use it to dive on the flashed opponent with cc impunity. also guaranteeing a chain cc with zac's q if that's what you wish.

Sad Tyrant4 votes

no he is not, he gets a 0.5 knock up, its not enough for what is needed to hit (less then Ryze's Targeted 0.75) the damage is fine, ok. CC immunity doesn't do shit when they just walk out before the charge goes through

enjoy the l00t2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Sad Tyrant,realm=OCE,application-id=A7LBtoKc,discussion-id=J6vZg0wr,comment-id=000c0002000100000001,timestamp=2017-05-04T18:29:41.119+0000)

no he is not, he gets a 0.5 knock up, its not enough for what is needed to hit (less then Ryze's Targeted 0.75) the damage is fine, ok. CC immunity doesn't do shit when they just walk out before the charge goes through

any half knowledgeable player will disagree with what you're saying and it's clear how inexperienced you are so im done with this interaction

there is blatantly no walking out of zac's e+r. you have to gap close.

Sad Tyrant6 votes

Any person who has any knowledge at all knows better than to insult others.

I hit a Jhin with my E after final shot. I R'd, he walked out. same with poppy I hit (she used W for the Speed boost), Xerath, and the hecarim, and the Ezreal (this is the joke one)

I also make the point if you are using E as a disengage tool, the .5 makes the difference if your allies get away or not.

Squidblimp6 votes

Why can't it be a guaranteed R cast? I don't really understand this. I aimed E, which is cancellable by CC, needs to be charged, and hard to land. Why am I not rewarded with an Ult?

That aside, if you really want it not to be guaranteed, why not make the Ult take longer to charge, but allow the Ult to grow to a larger size? That way, Zac's E doesn't feel so awful by itself without Ult, but doesn't guarantee a fully charged Ult. It also allows Zac to walk behind his opponent and quicktap it, just like he could before.

Quepha4 votes

{quoted}

Why can't it be a guaranteed R cast?

do you know what his new R even does? that combo would basically be an extremely reliable AoE blitz hook.

PeepingPeafowl6 votes

{quoted} extremely reliable

implying Zac's E is extremely reliable

pfffffhahahah

at best you could grab people right next to you more often.

Squidblimp9 votes

Zac's E isn't reliable tho. LOL. Plus he has to use an ULTIMATE to get the combo off.

flyingbaklava4 votes

Blitz hook can't be interrupted, does more damage, and has a shorter cooldown to boot.

DeKleft4 votes

Zac's CC nerf on E is extremely noticeable. His new ult is even worse... but since that's unlikely to be reverted, we need the 1 sec knockup back on the staple engage tool, even if that means an increased pool time on ult from 1 sec to 1.25 secs or so if necessary.

Final Raid Boss3 votes

This is ridiculous .. Zac mains were crying out on the PBE forum since the update was put out and not a single thread was acknowledged by a Rioter, not sure what happened there @Meddler

enjoy the l00t1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Final Raid Boss,realm=NA,application-id=A7LBtoKc,discussion-id=J6vZg0wr,comment-id=000c0006,timestamp=2017-05-04T23:26:32.897+0000)

This is ridiculous .. Zac mains were crying out on the PBE forum since the update was put out and not a single thread was acknowledged by a Rioter, not sure what happened there @Meddler

Zac mains are talentless mechanically inept nobodies. they're simply crying riot is making their easy champion require more than a single neuron firing in their head per game. and this is from someone who got rank 1 with zac most played

new zac is incredible and far more versatile/intuitive. i've listened to in depth commentary from a diamond zac player on stream and he was so entirely clueless it made my head hurt. if you're reading, meddler, don't fucking buff him anymore. he's probably overpowered with the latest hotfix.

RocketRelm2 votes

Yeah, you can say that, but...

Sub40% win rate. The numbers don't lie. I mean, if you really think he's freely, then go ahead and try to climb with him in ranked.

(Also, I'd like to hear you explain how landing long range E fits in with "talentless" and "mechanically inept".)

enjoy the l00t1 votes

{quoted}

Yeah, you can say that, but...

Sub40% win rate. The numbers don't lie. I mean, if you really think he's freely, then go ahead and try to climb with him in ranked.

(Also, I'd like to hear you explain how landing long range E fits in with "talentless" and "mechanically inept".)

are you retarded? it's literally called first day of release.

he is freelo. i've won 6 games with him with 7.0 kda+ and no losses since rework.

and his E is one of the most simple spells in the game with one of the highest rewards. https://gyazo.com/38e669c4a3f7e1af8ee762adeeae27e6 that explains it!

RocketRelm1 votes

Uh huh, haven't bothered with ranked much this reason. I don't get your point. Was high plat last season, but ranked's been so toxic I just didn't bother, and instead did things that were fun.

I mean, I'm glad you're hitting high variance and being donated wins, but most people don't have that kind of luck. Third day of release and the win rate is lower than day 1.

(Also, holy hell you're salty. Calling me retarded, trying to rank shame me when I haven't even bothered with ranked this season. Are you just like this all the time?)

Windows OS2 votes

{quoted}

Uh huh, haven't bothered with ranked much this reason. I don't get your point. Was high plat last season, but ranked's been so toxic I just didn't bother, and instead did things that were fun.

I mean, I'm glad you're hitting high variance and being donated wins, but most people don't have that kind of luck. Third day of release and the win rate is lower than day 1.

(Also, holy hell you're salty. Calling me retarded, trying to rank shame me when I haven't even bothered with ranked this season. Are you just like this all the time?)

He's one of those type of high elo players, where because he's good at a video game he thinks it's ok to act like a complete cock to those not as good. Sad!

RazzOmaTaz10 votes

Man this rework just made me incredibly sad. I was actually depressed all game at how different he felt. Maybe its just the fact that he was my most played champion but man does it hurt.

The worst offender is the Q which is utterly useless in the jungle now. Maybe they could make it so targets between the 2 Q targets also took damage. The Q having a longer cd, SLOW cast time, doing zero damage, and not hitting multiple targets (raptors are impossible) lowered my gank health, success rate, and completely messed up my internal CD clock for combos.

The second worst is the ult which just doesn't have the same CC potential as the old one. It isn't as reliable (always hit at least a couple targets) or combo-able. To me it makes Zac even MORE static than what his E already did and exacerbates a missed E.

Overall conceptually these changes are interesting, but they WERE NOT NECESSARY. Zac already had a niche by further nicheing him he just isn't as fun.

iahim989 votes

Meddler did the AA animation smoothening for supports went through, and does it include the skins that change AA for those champions?

RiotMeddler3 votes

Some of it is in 7.9, though we forgot to patch note it. A bit more should be in 7.10. All animation changes should apply to the skins as well.

We'll get the list of what changed into an updated set of patch notes (probably with today's hotfix).

Edit: Stuff going into the updated notes:

"Sona, Morgana, Annie, Janna, Nami, Soraka have had non-gameplay impacting adjustments made to their attack animations. Janna, Nami, Sona will now use their crit animations when doing empowered attacks. Nami, Janna have had adjustments to their basic attack visual and sound effects."

7.10 should have some additional visual and sound effect updates.

MAGA MAN X 20207 votes

the issue with Zac has nothing to do with his damage or slow duration. The problem is his ult is complete and utter trash. Give him some sort of defense boost during the pool, and you might have a functioning champ. Or, just give him back his old ult because it fit his kit very well. You can't just dive in, let the other team maim you while you position/channel your ult, then hope to walk away with a pick. That is why the old ult worked and the new one gives Zac a 40% win rate.

Hes like Xin Zhao, once you go in, you're in. If the best you can do is smack them around a little, hope the pools land in good spots to pick them up, or stand still and get bodied while you channel your ult, you are completely useless to your team.

Krys Star5 votes

Just curious, how is Soraka doing with the Coin line changes? I play her primarily, and with the Coin changes I've noticed I'm hurting for health much more than usual. Starcall isn't doing enough to keep me healthy (I've been having to return to base half the time due to being 1% health and mana much more than usual).

Coin's previous healing on minion death stacked nicely with Rejuvenate, and after about a dozen games with Soraka and the new coin changes, Starcall just isn't doing enough when you consider the risks involved in trying to collect gold coins and mana coins.

Would it be possible mana coins also restored 4% or 8% of missing health as well? Or give Astral Infusion a scaling health cost based on rank such as 6% / 7% / 8% / 9% / 10%, or return Starcall's previous extra healing based on amount of champions hit (increasing by 5% per champion struck beyond the first, up to a total of 20% benefiting Soraka only)?

Tulzurak4 votes

I'm glad I'm not the only one who feels a significant difference in her health regeneration. It feels as if I'm not being rewarded for landing the majority of my Starcalls.

RiotMeddler4 votes

Still watching Coin, can't get a clear read on something like that after one day, especially when people aren't all using it properly or even buying the correct items yet. Soraka so far seems to be pretty unchanged, though not yet sure how much of that's driven by Spellthief's use versus Coin.

Krys Star4 votes

Hopefully you'll be able to get a better read on how Soraka's doing. The coin changes have really hit her, and this is coming from someone who has nearly a million mastery on her, probably 2-3 million if mastery was out since before season 1 started.

The changes really hurt, and I find myself playing much more passively than before. I try to avoid interacting with the enemy team at all costs unless I can land a safe Starcall, which is terrifying to try now.

NeoXist5 votes

I think you shouldn't nerf Sejuani's base hp and W's base damage, but rather the Icebreaker passive. Nerfing the damage on that would be a lot better than nerfing W's base damage, since a lot of the clear is pretty much from that. A damage+cd nerf on the passive would be sufficient enough I think. If she still stays way too strong then you could look at other abilities. Just stating my opinion here.

Abacaxi Atrevido5 votes

Hey Meddler, few things about Zac changes:

People that don't play Zac maybe like the voice, but if you check the real Zac mains, everyone dislike it. His personality doesn't change if he gets smaller, why would his voice change? Plus, he had one of the deepest smoothest voices in League, that now can only be heard when he is full hp.

His ult needs more range to be effective, and his uncarged ult feels useless, weaker that many other basic abilities (Alistar Q), plus his charged ult could use more range.

His Q is super bugged, many times the people u conect with doesn't bump together, but just come closer to each other. Plus it does too little damage

E knockup is 0.5 wich is a prertty huge nerf, compared to like Sejuani wich has a point and click 2 second stun.

Thats what I feel about the new Zac being a Zac main

Rogue of Time4 votes

My biggest problem with "new Zac" is that he seems like he's all over the place in terms of what his "role" should be. Old Zac had a clear identity: Dive the enemy team really hard and cause a bunch of chaos, knocking people around while sustaining through damage by scooping up blobs. New Zac has a Q that requires him to hang around teamfights (immobile) while slamming people together and an R that requires him to stay immobile so that he can grab and carry one or two enemy players to a disadvantageous position for them. The reason this feels so disjointed is because Zac's Passive, E, and W, which were unchanged, work on the premise that he can move about and collect his blobs, which the new kit does not allow him to do because of the new Q and R which root him in place.

Because of his "stand and fight" feel, his Q, W, and E essentially hurt him with very little chance for him to actually pick up his blobs and heal himself to sustain through a fight. As a self-hurting tank with no personal shielding, his blobs are his only means of surviving a long engagement. With the new immobility of his kit, it makes it much easier for enemies to counter-harass and harm him simply for using his kit as intended since he'll be standing in place unable to fight back.

Then there's the matter of his E and R. His old E would knock foes up for one full second, which was usually enough time to use a W and chain into R, which would knock the enemy to a disadvantageous position which is what the new ultimate does anyway. Then, he would get a 50% movespeed boost, and could use the extra bounces to knock teammates away from the isolated target, making Zac amazing at breaking the enemy apart and setting up allied Assassins and Bruisers that don't have strong AoE power, while also balancing the team out by providing some AoE damage through his W that was set up through the blob generation from his R (and mid-R W casts). The new ultimate is unreliable to land unless the enemy is out of position already and has to run through Zac, or unless Zac has someone else helping him lock them down. This takes away from his identity as an initiator, as instead of safely setting up his team to come in he basically has to have someone set him up so he can safely use his kit.

When I was reading about the then-upcoming Zac rework, it was noted that it was being done (along with Sejuani / Maokai) in order to create an identity for the champions and separate them from an "Amumu feel". Zac NEVER felt like Amumu to me, and I've played Amumu plenty. Amumu would use his Q, then use his R to lock everybody in place, then stand on them with his W and spam his E until enemies were dead. Zac, on the other hand, constantly had to move around the battlefield picking up blobs and had to be careful on his bounce placements with his R or else he would possibly move the enemy into a position not ideal for his team. This required a lot of thought and balancing between "Do I go for blobs for healing / damage" or "Do I go for positioning to line up an enemy for a skill shot for my team". He already had an identity. I don't know how anyone could think he didn't.

Speaking of his E and R, by the way, Amumu's Q guarantees a landed R. Blitzcrank's Q guarantees a landed E, followed by R. Thresh's Q lines up with his E perfectly as well. Tons of characters are built around "land this one really hard to land / risky skill and be rewarded", and yet Zac, who has a self-damaging skill that puts him in danger if he doesn't land it, can't get a guaranteed Ult because... why? Because Lee Sin is the only one who can Q -> Q and land a guaranteed R because it looks flashy, knocks them farther back than Zac can, and does way more damage than Zac does even if Lee Sin builds tanky? This mentality of "We don't want to guarantee his R" makes no sense to me when compared to the rest of the champion roster.

My recommendation? Revert the changes. I'm normally happy with most of the reworks, but this has completely neutered Zac. Everything in his kit has its own identity and feel, and none of it goes well. I mean, look at this mess: Q: Slow that leads to an empowered (range-wise) auto-attack that causes CC for a slight duration. Roots Zac in place. Generates 1 blob despite being "two casts", and works well with Lich Bane / Iceborn Gauntlet / Trinity Force. Items that Zac will never, ever, EVER build. W: Deals damage and reduces cooldown on itself by picking up blobs generated from all abilities. All other abilities root Zac in place so he can't walk around and pick up blobs. E: Hard to land skillshot that used to be very rewarding because it could chain into a W->R which allowed him enough blob generation to survive teamfights and be aggressive. Now so unrewarding that it chains into nothing. No reward? Why take the risk, then? R: Zac "stuns" himself and starts channeling, becoming "immune to CC". What do we call a Zac that doesn't move from a single location, can't pick up blobs, has to wait around while doing nothing to the enemy, and has no way of dealing damage no matter how long he channels? A sitting duck, that's what.

If you're not going to revert the changes, here are my recommendations: Passive: Give him 50% increased move speed after he picks up a blob for 1 second. That should give him some mobility he needs when he's outside of his ultimate. Q: One blob upon landing the first part of the Q, a second blob for landing the second part. Allow him to move while doing the second cast. W: Keep this the same. E: Revert the 1.0 second knockup. This was just crippling and insulting. R: Give Zac some damage reduction at the very least! He's a sitting duck that anybody can burn into the ground during his ultimate! It's so risky that snap-casting is the only appealing way to use it, and snap-casting it makes it feel like a lame version of his old ultimate!

This may read like "Man, Zac will be a CC monster that's hard to pin down", and that's what he was before and he still didn't see a ton of play. Why? Because he's a self hurting tank. It made him risky to play, and even with his old E and ultimate he wasn't overpowered at all. Sure, he can sustain if he can get his blobs, but that's the problem now: He can't get his blobs anymore, so he went from a viable tank to the Urgot of tanks.

Vitor Raposo3 votes

Thoughts on maokai?

Scopé3 votes

Hi Meddler! Are there any ideas for Kindred's crit scaling you've once mentioned?

RiotMeddler3 votes

Current thinking/work in testing looks more like rewarding AD itemization more, that then opens up but doesn't as explicitly call out crit options as something like passive damage critting would. I suspect we'll have something to ship sometime in the next few patches.

TSBGhost3 votes

Would it be to much to give Zac's old ultimate back on top of his current one? I mean this would allow even more options and make him a very versatile champion. This is what I thought was happening in the first place too be honest

Stibnitive2 votes

Zac

I like his ult. I like how his long range E and then his R (often in combination with randuins slow to keep them in for the duration) would not cause you to go in too deep without your teammates to follow up. I'm a huge fan of his E and R.

One of the problems you had with Zac that you wanted to adress is that he isn't interesting after landing. This is now even worse because of the longer Q cooldown. With zac this stacks even more because now he spawns far less blobs so he can't W as much either so it actually works against the whole idea you had for him, but also against his identity (blobman).

I felt incredibly weak when I played him, though. I died at red buff after doing a camp in between. It sounds stupid, but I was just used to zac always healing enough with his blobs to clear any camp as long as you had 3 abilities. No longer.

Also, I found a bug where the second part of his Q doesn't work sometimes if you cancel the AA. Considering how important that particular AA is, I can see it happening often when you switch targets.

What i'd like to see is not ratio changes. That would make him deal damage, which was the main focus of the tank update: remove damage but keeping them interesting and useful nonetheless. These are my ideas: Make Zac spawn an extra blob with the empowered auto attack after his Q, and then give him yet again another blob if the champions touch (so: not for minions or monsters, and not if the champions pulled together don't touch). This would make this rather lackluster ability a whole lot more satisfying.

Also, maybe a small CD reduction on his ult. It's a small and short ult, yet Zac just doesn't feel useful without it. If zac were to become too strong, I would gladly trade some of my ideas with damage that zac has.

Project Kr2 votes

dear god, please just revert to old Zac, like the q and ult changes just seem so gimmicky Zac item 3070

Project Kr2 votes

ZAC went from being a champ i could play without dying more than 5 times to a sitting duck, i question thought process of whoever thought these changes were a good idea.

Not even over exaggerating here, he was better off with his old Q and R, can we please give ZAC the Kog'maw treatment....rito plz....

drink chlorine 2 votes

To be honest I think Zac's q should be a double cast instead of a cast and then an aa, and since its hard to just run at people and aa why not just cast both as a skill shot its not unfair and its more fun to land

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