Quick Gameplay Thoughts: May 4

RiotMeddler·5/4/2017, 4:26:18 PM·1 votes·53,231 views

Morning all!


Usual Disclaimers

These posts will often contain talk about future work we're doing, or planning to do, that isn't yet guaranteed to ship. The nature of the work could change or, depending on what we discover, projects mentioned may get put delayed or even stopped. If you'd like to see a Tweet whenever a new one of these posts goes up: https://twitter.com/RiotMeddler


Mid-Season so far

It's really early in 7.9's release, some preliminary thoughts though:

  • Sejuani - Is clearly too strong. We made some late changes just before the patch locked a week ago and internal testing between then and now left us pretty convinced we'd made her too strong. What we've seen so far supports that so we'll be hotfixing some nerfs out to her, probably later today. Likely changes are a reduction in starting health (600-560), higher passive CD (15/12/9 instead of 9 at all levels) and lowered base damage on W (20-40+30-170 instead of 30-50+40-180). Still locking down exact details though, so those could change slightly.

  • Zac - Is probably too weak by a noticeable margin. We'll be assessing him more today, depending on how he does we're considering some slight hotfix buffs however, which would be increases to his Q slow (0.5s per trigger instead of 0.25s) and E damage (80-280 instead of 80-240, thinking being that that change was an unnecessary nerf).

  • Rift Herald - Too early to say much yet. In most games so far people aren't optimizing with it, optimizing against it or even taking it consistently. Keeping a really close eye on how she does, given potential game impact's really high, no conclusions yet though.

  • New Items - Nothing seems too out of line so far. Having said that it often takes a while for adoption rates of new items to get to the appropriate level for their power, so it's possible there's some subtle but strong stuff out there we just haven't seen revealed yet.


Zac's Voice

We'll be looking to do a bit of tweaking to how Zac's voice pitch changes with his health in 7.10. Currently that'll probably involve adjusting the thresholds where the pitch changes kick in (probably too frequent right now). Feedback on that much appreciated if you've had a chance to play new Zac.


** Developing Features for the New Client**

While we've started swapping some regions over fully to the new client that's not the case globally yet. That means that until we've got all regions over (we're working on it) we'll still need to take the old client into account and can't release things that affect all players (like pick/ban changes) that only work in the new client. Getting there, but not quite there yet.

219 Comments

Squidblimp5/4/2017, 4:52:00 PM16 votes

Hi Meddler. Here's some Zac Mains' thoughts on the changes:

https://www.reddit.com/r/thesecretweapon/comments/695nb5/to_riot_shrieve_our_overall_opinion_on_the_zac/

About the voice, we like the pitch change, but we want it to happen around 30 or 35% HP left, not higher. And we also don't like how it also speeds up too, the pitch change is enough.

Also, the main issue is the E CC nerf for us.

RazzOmaTaz5/4/2017, 7:22:40 PM10 votes

Man this rework just made me incredibly sad. I was actually depressed all game at how different he felt. Maybe its just the fact that he was my most played champion but man does it hurt.

The worst offender is the Q which is utterly useless in the jungle now. Maybe they could make it so targets between the 2 Q targets also took damage. The Q having a longer cd, SLOW cast time, doing zero damage, and not hitting multiple targets (raptors are impossible) lowered my gank health, success rate, and completely messed up my internal CD clock for combos.

The second worst is the ult which just doesn't have the same CC potential as the old one. It isn't as reliable (always hit at least a couple targets) or combo-able. To me it makes Zac even MORE static than what his E already did and exacerbates a missed E.

Overall conceptually these changes are interesting, but they WERE NOT NECESSARY. Zac already had a niche by further nicheing him he just isn't as fun.

iahim985/4/2017, 6:11:13 PM9 votes

Meddler did the AA animation smoothening for supports went through, and does it include the skins that change AA for those champions?

MAGA MAN X 20205/4/2017, 7:20:13 PM7 votes

the issue with Zac has nothing to do with his damage or slow duration. The problem is his ult is complete and utter trash. Give him some sort of defense boost during the pool, and you might have a functioning champ. Or, just give him back his old ult because it fit his kit very well. You can't just dive in, let the other team maim you while you position/channel your ult, then hope to walk away with a pick. That is why the old ult worked and the new one gives Zac a 40% win rate.

Hes like Xin Zhao, once you go in, you're in. If the best you can do is smack them around a little, hope the pools land in good spots to pick them up, or stand still and get bodied while you channel your ult, you are completely useless to your team.

NeoXist5/4/2017, 5:47:36 PM5 votes

I think you shouldn't nerf Sejuani's base hp and W's base damage, but rather the Icebreaker passive. Nerfing the damage on that would be a lot better than nerfing W's base damage, since a lot of the clear is pretty much from that. A damage+cd nerf on the passive would be sufficient enough I think. If she still stays way too strong then you could look at other abilities. Just stating my opinion here.

Krys Star5/4/2017, 4:34:05 PM5 votes

Just curious, how is Soraka doing with the Coin line changes? I play her primarily, and with the Coin changes I've noticed I'm hurting for health much more than usual. Starcall isn't doing enough to keep me healthy (I've been having to return to base half the time due to being 1% health and mana much more than usual).

Coin's previous healing on minion death stacked nicely with Rejuvenate, and after about a dozen games with Soraka and the new coin changes, Starcall just isn't doing enough when you consider the risks involved in trying to collect gold coins and mana coins.

Would it be possible mana coins also restored 4% or 8% of missing health as well? Or give Astral Infusion a scaling health cost based on rank such as 6% / 7% / 8% / 9% / 10%, or return Starcall's previous extra healing based on amount of champions hit (increasing by 5% per champion struck beyond the first, up to a total of 20% benefiting Soraka only)?

Abacaxi Atrevido5/4/2017, 7:03:11 PM5 votes

Hey Meddler, few things about Zac changes:

People that don't play Zac maybe like the voice, but if you check the real Zac mains, everyone dislike it. His personality doesn't change if he gets smaller, why would his voice change? Plus, he had one of the deepest smoothest voices in League, that now can only be heard when he is full hp.

His ult needs more range to be effective, and his uncarged ult feels useless, weaker that many other basic abilities (Alistar Q), plus his charged ult could use more range.

His Q is super bugged, many times the people u conect with doesn't bump together, but just come closer to each other. Plus it does too little damage

E knockup is 0.5 wich is a prertty huge nerf, compared to like Sejuani wich has a point and click 2 second stun.

Thats what I feel about the new Zac being a Zac main

Rogue of Time5/5/2017, 7:06:16 AM4 votes

My biggest problem with "new Zac" is that he seems like he's all over the place in terms of what his "role" should be. Old Zac had a clear identity: Dive the enemy team really hard and cause a bunch of chaos, knocking people around while sustaining through damage by scooping up blobs. New Zac has a Q that requires him to hang around teamfights (immobile) while slamming people together and an R that requires him to stay immobile so that he can grab and carry one or two enemy players to a disadvantageous position for them. The reason this feels so disjointed is because Zac's Passive, E, and W, which were unchanged, work on the premise that he can move about and collect his blobs, which the new kit does not allow him to do because of the new Q and R which root him in place.

Because of his "stand and fight" feel, his Q, W, and E essentially hurt him with very little chance for him to actually pick up his blobs and heal himself to sustain through a fight. As a self-hurting tank with no personal shielding, his blobs are his only means of surviving a long engagement. With the new immobility of his kit, it makes it much easier for enemies to counter-harass and harm him simply for using his kit as intended since he'll be standing in place unable to fight back.

Then there's the matter of his E and R. His old E would knock foes up for one full second, which was usually enough time to use a W and chain into R, which would knock the enemy to a disadvantageous position which is what the new ultimate does anyway. Then, he would get a 50% movespeed boost, and could use the extra bounces to knock teammates away from the isolated target, making Zac amazing at breaking the enemy apart and setting up allied Assassins and Bruisers that don't have strong AoE power, while also balancing the team out by providing some AoE damage through his W that was set up through the blob generation from his R (and mid-R W casts). The new ultimate is unreliable to land unless the enemy is out of position already and has to run through Zac, or unless Zac has someone else helping him lock them down. This takes away from his identity as an initiator, as instead of safely setting up his team to come in he basically has to have someone set him up so he can safely use his kit.

When I was reading about the then-upcoming Zac rework, it was noted that it was being done (along with Sejuani / Maokai) in order to create an identity for the champions and separate them from an "Amumu feel". Zac NEVER felt like Amumu to me, and I've played Amumu plenty. Amumu would use his Q, then use his R to lock everybody in place, then stand on them with his W and spam his E until enemies were dead. Zac, on the other hand, constantly had to move around the battlefield picking up blobs and had to be careful on his bounce placements with his R or else he would possibly move the enemy into a position not ideal for his team. This required a lot of thought and balancing between "Do I go for blobs for healing / damage" or "Do I go for positioning to line up an enemy for a skill shot for my team". He already had an identity. I don't know how anyone could think he didn't.

Speaking of his E and R, by the way, Amumu's Q guarantees a landed R. Blitzcrank's Q guarantees a landed E, followed by R. Thresh's Q lines up with his E perfectly as well. Tons of characters are built around "land this one really hard to land / risky skill and be rewarded", and yet Zac, who has a self-damaging skill that puts him in danger if he doesn't land it, can't get a guaranteed Ult because... why? Because Lee Sin is the only one who can Q -> Q and land a guaranteed R because it looks flashy, knocks them farther back than Zac can, and does way more damage than Zac does even if Lee Sin builds tanky? This mentality of "We don't want to guarantee his R" makes no sense to me when compared to the rest of the champion roster.

My recommendation? Revert the changes. I'm normally happy with most of the reworks, but this has completely neutered Zac. Everything in his kit has its own identity and feel, and none of it goes well. I mean, look at this mess: Q: Slow that leads to an empowered (range-wise) auto-attack that causes CC for a slight duration. Roots Zac in place. Generates 1 blob despite being "two casts", and works well with Lich Bane / Iceborn Gauntlet / Trinity Force. Items that Zac will never, ever, EVER build. W: Deals damage and reduces cooldown on itself by picking up blobs generated from all abilities. All other abilities root Zac in place so he can't walk around and pick up blobs. E: Hard to land skillshot that used to be very rewarding because it could chain into a W->R which allowed him enough blob generation to survive teamfights and be aggressive. Now so unrewarding that it chains into nothing. No reward? Why take the risk, then? R: Zac "stuns" himself and starts channeling, becoming "immune to CC". What do we call a Zac that doesn't move from a single location, can't pick up blobs, has to wait around while doing nothing to the enemy, and has no way of dealing damage no matter how long he channels? A sitting duck, that's what.

If you're not going to revert the changes, here are my recommendations: Passive: Give him 50% increased move speed after he picks up a blob for 1 second. That should give him some mobility he needs when he's outside of his ultimate. Q: One blob upon landing the first part of the Q, a second blob for landing the second part. Allow him to move while doing the second cast. W: Keep this the same. E: Revert the 1.0 second knockup. This was just crippling and insulting. R: Give Zac some damage reduction at the very least! He's a sitting duck that anybody can burn into the ground during his ultimate! It's so risky that snap-casting is the only appealing way to use it, and snap-casting it makes it feel like a lame version of his old ultimate!

This may read like "Man, Zac will be a CC monster that's hard to pin down", and that's what he was before and he still didn't see a ton of play. Why? Because he's a self hurting tank. It made him risky to play, and even with his old E and ultimate he wasn't overpowered at all. Sure, he can sustain if he can get his blobs, but that's the problem now: He can't get his blobs anymore, so he went from a viable tank to the Urgot of tanks.

TSBGhost5/6/2017, 7:51:22 AM3 votes

Would it be to much to give Zac's old ultimate back on top of his current one? I mean this would allow even more options and make him a very versatile champion. This is what I thought was happening in the first place too be honest

Scopé5/4/2017, 5:14:22 PM3 votes

Hi Meddler! Are there any ideas for Kindred's crit scaling you've once mentioned?

Vitor Raposo5/4/2017, 4:31:21 PM3 votes

Thoughts on maokai?

Project Kr5/5/2017, 7:32:41 AM2 votes

dear god, please just revert to old Zac, like the q and ult changes just seem so gimmicky Zac item 3070

Project Kr5/5/2017, 11:51:42 AM2 votes

ZAC went from being a champ i could play without dying more than 5 times to a sitting duck, i question thought process of whoever thought these changes were a good idea.

Not even over exaggerating here, he was better off with his old Q and R, can we please give ZAC the Kog'maw treatment....rito plz....

drink chlorine 5/5/2017, 11:19:50 PM2 votes

To be honest I think Zac's q should be a double cast instead of a cast and then an aa, and since its hard to just run at people and aa why not just cast both as a skill shot its not unfair and its more fun to land

Stibnitive5/5/2017, 2:35:03 AM2 votes

Zac

I like his ult. I like how his long range E and then his R (often in combination with randuins slow to keep them in for the duration) would not cause you to go in too deep without your teammates to follow up. I'm a huge fan of his E and R.

One of the problems you had with Zac that you wanted to adress is that he isn't interesting after landing. This is now even worse because of the longer Q cooldown. With zac this stacks even more because now he spawns far less blobs so he can't W as much either so it actually works against the whole idea you had for him, but also against his identity (blobman).

I felt incredibly weak when I played him, though. I died at red buff after doing a camp in between. It sounds stupid, but I was just used to zac always healing enough with his blobs to clear any camp as long as you had 3 abilities. No longer.

Also, I found a bug where the second part of his Q doesn't work sometimes if you cancel the AA. Considering how important that particular AA is, I can see it happening often when you switch targets.

What i'd like to see is not ratio changes. That would make him deal damage, which was the main focus of the tank update: remove damage but keeping them interesting and useful nonetheless. These are my ideas: Make Zac spawn an extra blob with the empowered auto attack after his Q, and then give him yet again another blob if the champions touch (so: not for minions or monsters, and not if the champions pulled together don't touch). This would make this rather lackluster ability a whole lot more satisfying.

Also, maybe a small CD reduction on his ult. It's a small and short ult, yet Zac just doesn't feel useful without it. If zac were to become too strong, I would gladly trade some of my ideas with damage that zac has.