Boards›Dev Corner

Cannon Minion changes targeted for 8.7

RiotRiotRepertoir·3/23/2018, 5:28:58 PM·1 votes·58,086 views

Hi everyone,

We're looking to ship some changes to primarily cannon minions (and a few others for the sake of tuning) for 8.7. The basic outcome of these changes is that cannons will be worth a fair amount more and be a bit tankier, while other minions will be worth slightly less gold.

The idea behind these changes is that increasing the value of cannons will make them more worth fighting over, and that increasing their health will make the waves they're in not quite so easily cleared out. Some of you may recall that this approach is very similar to about half of a larger minion pass that appeared on the PBE for the 8.6 cycle, but we're not currently looking to add those other changes into the mix for now. Below are the tentative cannon minion changes and related tuning changes to the rest of the system:

Cannon Minions

Base Gold Value :: 45 >>> 60
Gold Value Growth per 90 seconds (3 waves) :: 0.35 >>> 3
Base Health :: 828 >>> 900
Health Growth per 90 seconds (3 waves) :: 23 >>> 50
Health Growth per 90 seconds (3 waves) beginning at wave 16 :: 32 >>> 60
Health bar size visually increased

Super Minions

Base Gold Value :: 45 >>> 60
Gold Value Growth per 90 seconds (3 waves) :: 0.35 >>> 3

Melee Minions

Base Gold Value :: 20 >>> 21
Gold Value Growth per 90 seconds (3 waves) :: 0.125 >>> 0

Caster Minions

Base Gold Value :: 17 >>> 14
Gold Value Growth per 90 seconds (3 waves) :: 0.125 >>> 0

One of the first things worth pointing out with these changes is that the total amount of gold acquirable from minions in the system is largely unchanged, with the percent difference in cumulative gold in the system starting around -1.5% and fluctuating between -1% and +1% by 20 minutes into the game.

The major tuning consideration that still needs to be made if we're to go forward with this seems to be what to do about Relic Shield and its upgrades, since at optimal play, this sure results in increased gold generation for its users. As such, if you see an alteration to any of those items hit the PBE soon, that's likely why.

Feedback on this stuff is welcome. If it seems there's something being neglected, please do call that out. Happy cannon hunting!

Repertoir

158 Comments

Zhugan3/23/2018, 8:38:26 PM36 votes

I have to say, I think this is a bad change from a game health perspective.

In any given wave (from game start), cannon minions are worth ~36% of the waves' value. At max value, they are worth ~46% of a waves' value. This creates a situation in which a person could miss 4/7 of a cannon wave at game start and earn nearly as much value as a person that hits 6/7 but misses the cannon.

Honestly, that creates a situation in laning in which a champion with a range advantage gains an even larger advantage than previously because it makes it very easy for them to discern the minion that they want to deny if they can because those values are vastly larger than they are on live. Which, honestly, makes top lane an even bigger nightmare lane, is a massive indirect buff to Targon's users (and people laning with them), and makes lane bullies (like Caitlyn) even more powerful.

Now, I suppose those might be EXACTLY the intended results, but those results are going to make a lot of champions that already feel kind of bad feel even worse. So, unless something is gonna be done to buff a whole lot of champions that feel pretty darn bad to play already this is likely to push a large part of the roster even further out of the meta.

Deep Terror Nami3/23/2018, 5:33:59 PM35 votes

I'm speaking from the perspective of someone that is not very good at last hitting;

Help.

item 2403

Ghostwing3/23/2018, 6:24:39 PM15 votes

I'm amazed how a change like this can ship. Iirc not very well received on PBE, seemingly not thought through to the end (hf getting cannon in a bad matchup), and then what? The playtest feedback and decision was "Yep, seems good. Go for it."? Really? Sometimes i think you guys need more reasonable Nay-Sayers on the team. ^^

AT LEAST fix those weird minion aggro switches that cause people to miss CS, before even attempting something like that imo.

Silverjust3/23/2018, 10:02:21 PM12 votes

I dont like it, because it makes bad matchups and snowballing even worse. There are more important gameplay issues that need to be looked at first!

F3EDfromDesIr33/23/2018, 5:56:10 PM10 votes

[deleted]

ZephyrDrake3/23/2018, 5:34:00 PM10 votes

oh great time to make people tilt and feel horrible for losing a single cannon minion can't wait to see games degenerate even more due to this

Doctor Doty3/24/2018, 12:41:33 AM10 votes

Have you thought about making cannon/super minions worth 2 cs in the cs counter. It would make sense because a jungle camp was changed from the number of monsters killed to a standard 4 cs, plus, now cannon minions are worth even more than 2 standard minions and about half of a jungle camp. In addition (at least for nasus and veigar, and maybe others?) q-farm-like mechanics count cannon/super minions as double farm.

Bern3/23/2018, 6:05:35 PM10 votes

Still curious how the net result of this isn't just making lanes harder in bad matchups. It's less penalizing to give up casters, but you're probably going to eat a ton of harass over the cannon if you can't hit it from afk no interaction range.

Removing all gold increases over time from the other minions and shoving them all onto the cannon also seems like it will result in less gold from clearing crashing side waves if you're not there dead on time. (Towers do kill cannon minions first, right?) Penalizes slow rotation a little more than it used to.

Something else you might want to think about re: relic is the additional strength of the instant execute when cannons are harder to clear. (The same kind of applies to dematerializer, tbh, but I think that's on your radar given the last time you brought this stuff up. I guess another old concern back in force is how this affects backing on cannon waves.)

hollow rei3/23/2018, 7:08:16 PM8 votes

Will you be considering any changes to Minion Dematerializer along with this? While I like the idea of cannons as a point of contention, the fact that you can use Dematerializer to effectively guarantee the first six cannon waves (and also gain a large pressure advantage over your lane opponent) seems to largely nullify the change in the early game. We've already seen from Stopwatch that the majority of midlaners are comfortable with going into Inspiration as a primary/secondary for a single specific rune, and I fear that Demat could end up in a similar place as pre-nerf Stopwatch if it's left unchanged.

Brainstorming some possible changes:

The arming time of Dematerializer is changed to a while (30 seconds to 1 minute) after the first or second cannon wave has arrived. This would give a clear window of opportunity for more aggressive laning champs to gain an advantage over their opponent (especially assassins, who usually have strong level 3 spikes).
Dematerializer grants reduced gold (25-50% of normal value) from the consumed minion. You can guarantee cannons with Dematerializer, but it's much less rewarding than killing them yourself.
Dematerializer requires additional charges (2-3) to consume a cannon and the increased minion damage is backloaded (e.g. starts at 1% for the first consumed, then increases by 2% per additional minion consumed). It allows players to make a tradeoff between guaranteeing 2 or 3 cannon waves or improving their waveclear against non-cannon waves.

Rexxiee3/23/2018, 9:11:12 PM6 votes

Wont this make it so its too easy to roam though? As long as you are there for the cannon wave you're good basically.

This will solve none of the more fights/1v1 issue.

You know what would solve it? Nerfing jungle presence early game, one of the biggest reasons why you dont see laners trading aggressively and trying to gain an lead in solo lanes are because of how overly strong junglers are early game, getting to the point where they outlevel solos and come to gank you with a empowered smite, doublebuffs and full health and can probably destroy you 1v1.

If you nerfed jungle early game laners would actually be able to play more aggressively and there would be more fights early game in lanes.

Driptorch3/23/2018, 7:39:14 PM6 votes

In regards to relic shield, this will hurt my late game gold income. As a support in solo q, I often cant get cannons past laning phase because the team doesn't consider my charges. So I proc off caster minions because I can pop them at full health. If you hit relic shield, because of the best case scenario in a coordinated team environment, I may have to take coin just so I get a consistent flow of gold. Forcing me to make a sub optimal choice because of something outside my control will feel real crappy.

Nokolaka3/23/2018, 10:45:13 PM6 votes

There are other ways to fix tank lane passivity than sweeping changes which will no doubt cause a wildfire of unintended consequences such as these. Like, maybe if tanks couldn't do 60% of a squishy's HP while locking them down and being invincible........that could be a good start. You know, like, the thing people have been complaining about for five million years. [sg-ahri-1]

ZaneShadow3/23/2018, 6:59:07 PM5 votes

Hmm I’m okay with this change, but if the goal is to make clearing harder, instead of buffing cannon minions, why not buff the minions around cannon? Like give the an aura that gives extra armor and mr or damage reduction to minions (including themselves). That way poor wave clear champs know to kill cannon first and strong wave clear champs are just less effective on those particular waves since AoE isn’t as effective on cannons tanker stats. Gold increase would then be a reward for killing the tougher minion, which would spawn more frequently as the game went on.

Would something like this work? I made it sound so definite but this is just an idea I have been kicking around in my head and really wanted feed back on.

My two cents on the matter. Honestly I think the changes are okay. Should do the trick. A bit nervous about how over the top valuable cannons are with this. That’s not really a reason to stop, but just my feelings on the matter.

LakanLode3/24/2018, 4:22:36 AM5 votes

Whatever the changes, please don't make the game snowball harder. I've recently learned how to play safe and farm when behind to win losing games; this doesn't work when teammates continue playing unsafely. If the game snowballs harder, it'll be theoretically even harder to use safe strategies to come back from losing games--I don't want winning and losing in a strategic game to feel like rolling dice.

The Lane Kiffin3/24/2018, 4:42:17 AM5 votes

Has there been any consideration put into making cannon minions worth 3 “cs”? If Jungle camps give 4 I feel that there should be serious thought put into giving cannon minions more than 1 cs value so that the number better represents the value a player is getting from cs.

This change would promote a more accurate representation of how someone is actually farming.

Bloab3/25/2018, 10:17:04 AM5 votes

Looks like I gotta take smite when I vs Teemo now.

LordBlackstar3/27/2018, 12:58:11 PM5 votes

So overall it seems the main intent of the changes in this round is to increase the importance and by extension priority of the Siege Minions in the hopes this will create a more active laning phase. If the change is targeted to have it's biggest impact at high levels of play this will likely play out as planned, but at lower levels of play this may actually increase overall passivity since people are less confident in their ability to secure last hits. The latter situation poses a much larger concern in my mind. While obviously the answer to the issue is to practice and get better at last hitting, it is probable that lower skill players will simply find the change incredibly unfun which will result in them potentially leaving the game instead of spending time dealing with a change they likely find ridiculous.

Personally I'm not against this change, I think shifting more gold into the Siege Minions is fine, but I do feel this will currently put too much of that gold into the Siege Minions and potentially result in more situations where you get taxed by a troll player or a jungler and you lose out on nearly 100 gold from them taking a single minion. While I may be focusing on the worst case scenarios too much, I feel like it's a bit more important to look at the negative impact and compare it to the potential positive impact. I'm a player who likes to be aggressive in lane, but also knows that right now that's a lot less of an option than it has been previously.

Another important impact that you've observed is that this change would absolutely require a change to the Relic Shield line of items, as they would be all but required in lane with this change for maximum efficiency and the amount of impact that would have for your support. I'm obviously no expert, but I'm not sure there's a reasonable way to retain the core concept of the item while not completely unbalancing support picks and implementing this change as it is now. Luckily, It hink there is a simple solution that will hit the sweet spot for both issues.

To wrap this up and reiterate things overall, the change is aimed to increase action in lane and increase the importance of Siege Minions, but comes at the price of the other minions no longer scaling up in value, Relic Shield requiring some sort of rework, and potentially frustrating or alienating less skilled players. I feel the solution is fairly straight forward, reducing the base gold value of the other Minions is on point and a great way of allowing you to shift that worth to Siege Minions, but that removing the gold value scaling altogether is the issue. This is simply loading too much of the value into the Siege Minions as it makes a full wave without a Siege minion always worth 105 gold, but waves with the Siege Minions worth 195 Gold, assuming I'm not screwing up my math, by 15 minutes into the game. Leaving some value scaling on the on the Melee and Caster Minions means that when wave clear is addressed people also won't feel like they are wasting a huge amount of time to kill something that feels nearly worthless later in the game, and prevents situations where if you can't quite make it in time to a wave, for one reason or another, later in the game you can lose more than half the value of the wave just by missing 1 CS.

Play better isn't a solution to the issues this creates, as the players most impacted are probably playing as well as they can. I may agree with the heart of telling people to practice and improve, but even I have been forced to accept that most people can't or won't.

Thank you for taking the time to post this and explain your reasoning, I hope the changes you finalize live up to the idea that you were aiming for.

AnataBakka3/23/2018, 7:07:00 PM5 votes

Super Minions

Base Gold Value :: 45 >>> 60 Gold Value Growth per 90 seconds (3 waves) :: 0.35 >>> 3

do they really have the same gold values as cannon minions? i was sure by killing super minions you were having a jackpot

DrTiltenstein4/1/2018, 12:32:17 PM5 votes

well this looks hella fun

I can't wait to lose the game during the draft

rip solo que

Risk of Fate3/23/2018, 5:44:34 PM5 votes

[deleted]

redniwediS3/23/2018, 5:48:18 PM4 votes

As a Juggernaut player I'm excited to have caster minions give less (means I lose less when being zoned by a ranged opponent), but I'm not too excited about having cannon minions with that much gold attached. I already get to face stuff like Quinn, Teemo, and Riven that attempt to prevent me from last hitting cannon minions, and for one reason or another it is difficult to retaliate against them.

Having so much gold tied to cannon minions lets any lane bully with some form of CC sit back and passively farm, but charge ahead and use abilities to deny that gold. Lane control is even more important now during a cannon wave, and I'm not sure whether this will be a good thing or bad thing. Fights will likely be timed around these waves, which can make ganks easier, or might just set the side that doesn't get Jungle help even further behind.

I'm probably worrying for no legitimate reason, but these are my initial thoughts.

Trias0004/4/2018, 10:12:14 AM4 votes

Feedback on this stuff is welcome

I see mostly negative feedback from comments, but you did it anyway. So what's the point of this "discussion"?

You also didn't address any issues this will cause, e.g. with banner of command or minion dematerializer.

Karn Bishop3/24/2018, 8:14:52 PM4 votes

Eve main here, does this mean that from eve's perspective minion waves are now stronger then dragon / baron to kill? do we get some sort of buff for killing this new boss?

Mcsquzzy3/27/2018, 11:51:34 PM3 votes

So does this mean more power in pick/ban phase that determines a game before playing?

AnataBakka3/23/2018, 6:23:56 PM2 votes

i still don't understand how they work out. Do they increase their gold value and hp infinitely? or are they capped?

Hippy3/24/2018, 8:47:39 AM2 votes

I'm a pretty good CSer, but I'm not too excited for this. I main ADC, and this will just make it so much more frustrating when the autofilled 0/5/1 Brand/Zyra/Annie/Velkoz support takes Minion Dematerializer just to take the cannon minions saying, "I need to carry and mid wouldn't trade. So blame mid." I had this happen a couple games in a row a few days ago. I also had a Lee Sin Jungle like a week ago take it too and he didn't even gank. He just walked into lane, took the cannon, and left.