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Quick Gameplay Thoughts: February 9

RiotMeddler·2/9/2018, 4:35:45 PM·1 votes·86,113 views

Hey all,

Usual Disclaimers

These posts will often contain talk about future work we're doing, or planning to do, that isn't yet guaranteed to ship. The nature of the work could change or, depending on what we discover, projects mentioned may get put delayed or even stopped. If you'd like to see a Tweet whenever a new one of these posts goes up: https://twitter.com/RiotMeddler

Zoe

To state the obvious, Zoe's been a controversial champion. She creates some really fun moments and does some really unique and interesting stuff. She's has also been a source of a lot of player frustration and remains too powerful. We've been chipping power off her in various ways, overall though they haven't made enough of a difference. We'll be nerfing her quite a bit harder in 8.4 (next patch) as a result. In retrospect this is a situation where we should have made larger changes earlier and we need to get better at figuring out when to go from smaller tuning to larger changes in cases like this. We should also have been talking more about our thoughts on her as well, even if that sometimes wasn't more conclusive than exposing a lot of the debate going on amongst us here.

Likely changes for 8.4:

  • Q: Only applies her passive damage on primary target hit. That reduces her wave clear, particularly ability to kill caster minions with one Q, reducing her power from gold and ability to shove/roam as easily. It also makes it harder for her to harass through a wave and makes it easier for allies to block Qs intended for sleeping allies.
  • W: Is no longer able to drop teleport. Teleport creates some cool plays, and is the only real out of combat drop to be had. At the same time though its power is generally significantly higher than the options and it doesn't present opponents with good ways to play around it either (which is particularly important with randomly picked effects).
  • E: Drowsy can now be cleansed, preventing the sleep from happening. That makes Cleanse, QSS, Mikael's noticeably better responses to her. We originally thought that the appropriate degree of cleanse countering Zoe E was to have the player choose between being able to reposition faster before falling asleep (cleansing the slow) or breaking the sleep once it hit. Having seen Zoe get a lot of play since her release though it’s clear at this point cleanse effects ought to be a stronger counter, rather than a partial one.
  • E: CD increased, giving more windows where she can't threaten lethal as well and/or can be engaged on.
  • R: Bug fix, but one that's potentially power impacting: Was granting the ability to move through units for the entire game after the first cast, rather than just for a very brief period when she returned to the cast point.

As you've probably noticed, there's no nerf to her Q damage in that list, though that's certainly a point of a lot of player frustration. We're confident the above changes are both a significant power reduction and changes that, regardless of whether we do or don't also nerf the Q at some point, are improvements to Zoe's play pattern. If we did follow up with a Q nerf, or if the above ends up being too heavy a hit, we'll also need to look at appropriate places to give Zoe power (she's pretty dependent on her Q burst to function). That could involve things like making W's damage contributions more meaningful later in the game.

Summoner Spell CDs on the Scoreboard

The display of those is currently bugged, making them much harder to read than they should be. On CD Summoners should show as much greyer/dimmer like they previously did. We're testing a fix for that at present, should be in the next patch at the latest. We'll also be reverting the orientation change, so Summoner spells are again shown vertically rather than horizontally. That was a well intented change that didn't hit the mark.

Keystone Development

We're still working on that new keystone for the Resolve tree (probably) previously mentioned. Some aspects of it are still in flux, one thing that's looking promising (though also not yet guaranteed) is having some of its reward be some dual percent pen (both some % armor pen and some % magic pen). That makes it appealing on champs with mixed damage types, helps out its users against tanky front lines and helps distinguish it from other sustained damage keystones.

One challenge that goes with that is then ensuring that keystone's best users aren't exclusively ranged champs, getting another % scaler on already high offense builds, and/or champs building full tanks looking to multiply their base damages. We're looking at mechanics like a trigger on proximity to enemies, scaling with offensive stats etc as a result.

Lissandra

Following on from a question from earlier in the week: Lissandra. She's got a couple of issues. She's too weak and her passive's not interesting or satisfying to most players. We'll be taking a look at her sometime in the next few patches (8.6 ish?). Minimum target there is to offer her some more power. It's possible we also end up improving or replacing her passive, don't want to make any promises there that we might not be able to deliver on though, beyond that we'll be at least looking at it.

Next Week

Amongst other things planning to talk about a couple of other requested topics from this week:

  • Marksmen play patterns and thoughts on what's healthy/unhealthy
  • Mastery curves and how we think about them when designing and balancing

http://ddragon.leagueoflegends.com/cdn/6.24.1/img/champion/Ziggs.png

364 Comments

Roigaar2/9/2018, 5:05:24 PM49 votes

Hey, Meddler. I really dislike having to do this because I think these types of threads often get derailed by tone-deaf "buff my champ when?" posts, but I feel like this topic has gone completely under the radar. You guys have spent the last couple of months trying to address the state of toplane by adjusting runes, champions (those that seem[ed] to be struggling, like bruisers, as well as those that seemed to be unduly strong, like lane bullies drawing too much power from runes). None of those discussions/changes have taken Quinn into account.

Quinn is the type of champion that you would expect to come up often since she's been typically considered one that bruisers in particular seem to have a hard time going against, and it should have been an alarm to you that she is utterly absent from the string of complaint posts that have appeared here and in other forums about the state of toplane. I invite you to control + F Quinn in the most vitriolic posts about toplane balance (you know the ones I'm talking about), or watch the high-elo community videos like Wicked's referenced tierlists, and you'll see what I mean.

To summarize the issue: Quinn's playrate has been falling dramatically over the weeks since preseason, to a point where she's beginning to disappear from data gathering sites, and instead of seeing winrate increases that usually happen when only players with 50+ games play a champion, her winrate has gone down by 3-4% according to most sources.

Quinn is struggling. She has received indirect nerfs in almost every patch since preseason hit, the most egregious being lethality values going down across the board when the AD assassins and casters seemed out of line, but has also suffered from nerfs to almost every major rune she can viably spec into, including Press the Attack, Celerity, Eyeball Collection, Sudden Impact, Coup the Grace and Triumph repeatedly.

This period was supposed to evaluate where champions landed in terms of power level after preseason. Despite being a niche champion, Quinn previously appeared to be appropriately tuned considering her play rate, winrates. As you balance the things around her, that is no longer the case, but she is absent from the conversation. Her stats as a niche champion should be cause for alarm. Her situation has deteriorated immensely in the span of two months, she was significantly healthier on 7.22.

And we would understand some apprehension: Quinn has historically been a champion that tends to cause frustrations in toplane, but that is simply a nonissue given her current power level. Moreover, there are plenty of parts in her kit where power can be altered not to contribute to alienating melee champions, such as W’s and R’s many levers.

I can't stress this enough. Her playrate has plummeted, reaching sub 1% levels, only behind Volibear and Mordekaiser. Her winrate has dropped several points even though mains make up for the majority of her appearances. You guys continue to nerf tools she relies in, and in the current toplane discussion where she would normally get flak, she has been conspicuously absent because she is irrelevant in this state. This situation feels wrong and we are worried she will be held in this state indefinitely. Can we get you guys to at least comment on this situation?

Raxistaicho2/9/2018, 4:58:59 PM24 votes

Thoughts on Ahri these days? Even if she's not weak necessarily, her emphasis on safety over damage strips her of a lot of personal ability to get things done and forces her to rely strongly on her team, making her somewhat unsatisfying to play.

I honestly wouldn't mind if her Q movespeed got hit in exchange for getting some damage back.

ImaginesTigers2/9/2018, 4:43:52 PM8 votes

Although I'll agree that Zoe's undoubtedly a frustrating champion, is the change to her Q (especially hitting her ability to waveclear) really where power has to come from? These changes are huge, but that's the only one which makes the champion feel significantly worse to me. Cooldown nerfs are alright, but having the uniformity of her damage, and losing the ability to clear the back line consistently early, feels like shit.

What are the chances that all of these ship, instead of just a few?

And in the event that all of them ship - will you guys address the fact that something was going really well that a champion (and their users) have to endure patch through patch of nerfs because the design team made mistakes?

RenanRein2/9/2018, 4:44:43 PM8 votes

Hi Meddler. I’ve seen a lot of complains about the Precision Keystones being weak (and little impactful), so, I have some suggestion to some of them (Precision tree), and also some insights on some Sorcery Keystones. I know you guys already have some buffs for PTA planned, but I thinkg you guys are aiming on the wrong aspects to change.

Press the attack – The problem with PTA is that this Rune has a support oriented mechanic. Increasing the damage by all sources, means that this Rune can’t be buff enought without becoming op. My suggestion: Change the increased damage from All Sources to Only the Champion who has the Rune, this way you can increase this damage and make this a good sustaining damage Rune.

Lethal Tempo – Is easily countered and easy to avoid. Why not take some ideas from our beloved fervor and put it here? My suggestion: Attacking na enemy Champion grants a stack of “Tempo”. Each “Tempo” stack grants X% attack speed (scale with level). When you reach 5 “Tempo” stacks, they’ll transform into “Lethal Tempo” granting more attack speed (a burst of attack speed) and removing your attack speed cap for X seconds. (You can also put a cooldown on “Tempo” stacks gaining after Lethal Tempo expires).

Fleet Footwork – Its ok, the problem is that the other 2 Precision Runes are garbage. Also, the fact that this Rune is a sustain oriented Rune, this mean that take the other 2 Runes against this, will automatically make you lose the lane because you can’t sustain enough against a Champion with this. Suggestion: Make this Rune only procs on champions, this way you don’t need to gutted it. I know that this maybe will imply on doing changes on how energizes work, because energizeds attack need to proc on minions, in value to the clearwave from statikk, but maybe you guys could make a way for something like this to work, just don't ruin this Rune).

Sorcery

Aery – Aery offensive mode should work only on spells. This is the SORCERY tree, which means is about resources and spells, so, auto attacks should not be able to have synergy here. By removing it interaction with auto attack, you can make it better on spells procs, maybe Aery could be attached to the target (mark) and make it receive extra damage on the next allied spell, based on YOUR ap/ad. So, basically some kind of “Leona passive”. This way you would’t make Aery a raw damage Rune, and make it more distinte from Comet.

Phase Rush – Phase Rush could be more interesting. Is very good on some champions, but a very few. My suggestion: Decreasing the cooldown based on level (15-10) and after the 3 seconds of the slow resist and movement speed, if the Champion stills in combat, it will keep 50% of the movement speed for 2 more seconds (only the ms, not the slow resist). For example, I’m fighting and uses Phase Rush , I'll gain +40% ms, AND if after 3 seconds I have still fighting with my enemy, so for the next 2 seconds, I’ll have +20% ms. This could help a little this Rune in my opinion.

iahim982/9/2018, 5:49:00 PM7 votes

Hey meddler when can we expect the addition of old summoner spells to unsealed spell book?

Also as a QoL can you let us swap summoners around for free when we have spellbook? As of how spellbook works we need to swap whatever is off CD and that usually leaves us with summoners in the wrong order. The only work around right now is to either wait for the shards and use them to correct it or rebind the summoners around which both feel pretty bad.

Fisher No Chains2/9/2018, 5:19:46 PM5 votes

Hi Meddler, sorry if I’m doing the same question every time, but I am very happy that you’re working on LB.

Do you have any news about the direction the “rework” is going to? Or maybe it’s just planned but you won’t work on her until Rengar is finally released?

Also, is it confirmed that LB “rework/revert” is being worked on by AzuBK and August?

TomiMan72/9/2018, 4:51:42 PM5 votes

Keystone Development

Are you guys ever experimented with opening up precision for mages? I mean making it more viable to go into precision as a primary tree? Now mages can only go sorcery and only a selected few can go domination, and probably none of them can go precision, even though there could be an interesting gameplay with a DoT pattern with PTA for example. In contrast ADCs can go precision sorcery inspiration maybe even domination, and do fine. Thoughts?

FlacidGnome2/9/2018, 8:08:52 PM4 votes

Hello Meddler! Viktor has felt pretty bad for awhile now. There were a few changes pushed through to the current patch, but nothing that actually fixes his issues. (lower overall damage than most midlaners and taking too long to come online.) Is there anything the works to possibly make his E hit harder or become more reliable? Or even possibly lowering the initial cost of his hex upgrade. (1250g is a lot for a first back especially when other laners can build tear or codex or the mana item i cant think of the name right now.)

Ars Arcánum2/9/2018, 5:11:01 PM4 votes

Has Riot considered a potential small Gameplay Update for Quinn or reversion of her ultimate? It's pretty terrible, both for the player and the enemy and eats up way too much of her power budget. Lot of Quinn mains, including myself are failing to find success with her.

And anything on Ashe? I miss seeing her in Pro Play and she's not too good in Solo Q right now.

Vinnie2/9/2018, 5:54:20 PM4 votes

Hey Meddler,

Any word on the ryze changes mentioned a few months ago?

TonyTonyMordecai2/9/2018, 4:48:27 PM3 votes

Morning Meddler!

So with the Lissandra passive, are you planning on keeping the mana part but make it more intuitive with her ice theme, or just make something entirely new, like how you did with Ashe and moved her old Q to her passive.

PsycloneJoker2/9/2018, 4:41:07 PM3 votes

I'm glad you guys are finally doing the Zoe nerfs that most people were calling for all along. Kinda worried though, these plus the previous attempts at nerfing her might be too much. Think this might be another "Riot Classic" of joke nerfs + real nerfs = champion is dead.

Excalibait2/9/2018, 4:51:25 PM2 votes

How do you (and probably also the balance and gameplay teams) feel about how the Support Items got received by the playerbase so far? Any potential follow up changes planned yet?

Kyunsei2/9/2018, 4:49:02 PM1 votes

what's your current thoughts on Jungle items changes ? I feel like they are very iterative and shouldn't hit live as such.

Even on pure auto-attacker jungle Talisman overwhelm a 5% life steal Machete.