The Preseasoning Day 2: Open Forum [MARKSMEN + MARKSMEN ITEMIZATION]

RiotPWYFF·10/29/2015, 6:37:10 PM·1 votes·19,325 views

You've read the excellently written dev blog: http://na.leagueoflegends.com/en/news/game-updates/features/preseason-2016-crests-horizon

YOU'VE READ THE COMMONLY ASKED QUESTIONS ABOUT PRESEASONS POST: http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/developer-corner/GjsdA9Zq-commonly-asked-preseason-questions-aka-why-manual-solutions-are-the-worst

You're not here to ask opinions posed as questions, because that will make me sad.

We are splitting this open forum into two sections - one for Marksmen & Marksmen Itemization, the other for everything else.

These topics are getting a little overwhelming! I'll spend a bit of today getting a big rundown of all the most frequently asked questions.

85 Comments

EROTIC RAID BOSS10/29/2015, 6:43:37 PM3 votes

Ok tbh reading about graves and caitlin... how much would I need to pay riot for you guys to let certainlyt work on ezreal? Idk how exactly graves will play but damn does he know how to deliver on a thematic.

A more real question though, is there any worry that champions who currently don't benefit as much from crit will be losing out on some of the big item changes? Ie if you're playing say ezreal and you build essence reaver and trinity force, assuming things haven't changed drastically he probably wouldn't want to build the new pd, or that rapid fire canon, etc. And might get locked into just building botrk bt/merc every game.

I'm not familiar with like corki or other ad casterling marksman but it could be the same issue with anyone who doesn't benefit as much from crit, after hitting 40%cdr

I guess its just a worry for me that some champions won't want to play with the new toys because they're all crit centric

Aspynn10/30/2015, 3:32:00 PM2 votes

So why the decision to remove Caitlyn's AP ratio on her traps? I for one enjoy AP Caitlyn, and I'm not gonna try to make this super opinionated and complainy, but here goes. I honestly don't really understand the reason to remove the base damage on her traps. I realize that it now has another powerful passive, but I really don't see how 80 damage early game and 280 damage late game (all reduced by magic resist, which people have even without buying any) has much power. I realize the whole power budget thing, but I don't feel like the traps doing damage for AD Caitlyn was really very important in the past or now. So why remove it? If it has such little impact on the game, I don't exactly see why it was removed. I feel like the new passive on her traps and e were power that she needed to have added to her kit to MAKE her viable. Also, I don't exactly see why the ap ratio was removed. I'm perfectly fine with seeing the base damage go, because like I said, It really doesn't do THAT much damage at any time. However, if she were to have her base damage removed, and have her ap ratio stay, (and perhaps be buffed by say, 10% to compensate for no base damage) Ap Caitlyn could remain relatively untouched, and AD Caitlyn could have her new shiny passives with no added power. I apologize for making this so opinionated, but AP Caitlyn is something that I really enjoy and that has a lot of sentimental value to me, I would hate to see it destroyed. I know ap Caitlyn isn't really very popular at all, I've only met one other person that has ever done it, but there are some people that truly do enjoy it. (Nhipia anyone?) I'm happy to see Caitlyn get buffed as an adc, but I would hate to see one of her offbuilds be eliminated just so her regular build doesn't seem to strong. (But an ap ratio won't affect her AD builds at all. Just saying :D )

lonelyy10/29/2015, 6:46:53 PM2 votes

May I ask why crit chance is still in the game? Especially with the new items/masteries, a lot of damage is based off luck/chance which seems very unhealthy for a highly competitive game. It provides a bit of variety rather than just building pure AD, and it feels good sometimes to get that huge lucky crit on an enemy to kill them, but playing against it is frustrating if the enemy gets a crit on you (if they didn't you would have lived), which could lead to the game being over or a huge objective being taken...

KronosCifer10/29/2015, 6:57:32 PM2 votes

Is there anything planned for champions that are going to suffer from the easy availability of grievous wounds

Kind of concerned, I'm considering Swain my main after all.

Hellioning10/29/2015, 7:17:08 PM2 votes

Why have Quinn be the 'roaming' marksman, and not the 'assassin' marksman, or the 'divey' marksman?

In fact, given her usual playpattern post-6, why not just make her an assassin or fighter?

Keevalroy10/29/2015, 7:41:34 PM2 votes

Alright, so I hate the idea that crit is still in the game after 6 years. After you nerfed BT to hell, people stopped rushing it, and instead went for IE. This created an unfun experience where the lane (assuming skill matchup) is decided not by skill, but RNG, specifically how much you can out-luck your opponent. With so much of this overhaul centered around crit dependency, how is this supposed to improve combat interaction?

Celebrimborr10/29/2015, 9:15:20 PM2 votes

Varus Is anything happening to Varus? What items would Varus like to buy now? Varus Also how will these changes affect Aatrox? Aatrox

Adalvar10/29/2015, 9:33:51 PM2 votes

Three questions. Twitch's ult now reads that it crits on the first enemy hit:

Does that mean the first hit, or all hits on the first target?
Does it priozitize champions (i.e if i strike the enemy ADC in the middle of a minion wave will the minions "steal" the crit)?
Is the damage reduction applied from the critical strikes on the first target or from the non-crit AD basic attacks?

Illâoi Evê Siôn10/30/2015, 1:11:17 PM1 votes

Marksmen can now easily reach 40% Cooldown Reduction on most builds, as all you need is Essence Reaver and another item that grants ~~Cooldown Reduction~~ Crit Chance (sorry, typo). Are there any plans to nerf Marksmen cooldowns because of this?

Other roles and champions often have to invest into Cooldown Reduction as an active build path (e.g. Maokai), which sometimes puts them at a disadvantage (Maokai might want CDR first, so he gets Frozen Heart, but he loses Health & Mr, or Health & Mana Regeneration in the process, which are just as important to him).

Or is Cooldown Reduction now a part of the Marksman identity alongside Attack Speed and Crit Chance?

kagepaladin10/29/2015, 7:17:50 PM1 votes

since quinn's passive now proc's on her Q does it still proc on her E and if so does that mean you could use your passive then your Q then your E basically assassinating someone level 6? also will an inbetween item be added that goes into the B.F. Sword since it is such a costly item, i mean yea if you can cs properly it's not hard but their is people out their that aren't good at cs and it would be nice to have an inbetween item.

yay nibbers10/30/2015, 1:34:38 PM1 votes

So what's with Sheen losing amp-tome and the AP? What is the context to this change?

SuperLuigiLXIV10/30/2015, 2:40:49 PM1 votes

Since Quinn's Skystrike is now more or less a "bonus" AoE auto attack that she gets for showing up to the fight, would it be possible to put her old blind on Skystrike? It seems like it would actually fit with the way Skystrike works now--super high mobility to allow Quinn to get to the fights and flank as a midlane assassin. This would add to that "SURPRISE" factor that I think her ult is trying to bring, almost like a back attack in an RPG where you get that one free shot off without retaliation.

pranaynaynay10/29/2015, 6:43:58 PM1 votes

Why did Graves end up getting his range nerfed so hard? Do you want him to move to another lane or was this still intended for bot lane play?

CubeHunt3R10/29/2015, 10:39:04 PM1 votes

With the new items: how about "The Lightbringer" item 3185 ?

Critkeeper10/30/2015, 2:45:34 AM1 votes

Will the capstone mastery which restores health on critical strikes function before or after resistances?
Melee carries itemize heavily into marksmen itemization, are you keeping an eye on how they perform?
Will gunblade and death's dance health restore stack?
Objectively speaking, don't you feel that IE is a bit weak? I mean, so many other items provide cool things that you can leverage to help you win in different ways, with context sensitive power-- but IE is just straight general damage. I feel like you are keeping it down to give all the other options a spotlight, but it sort of indirectly knocks down ashe, trynd, yasuo, and other people who really want to crit really often and need ie as a core item. Is this the same sort of "need this item to be a real champion" phenomena that plagued hybrid scaling champs with gunblade?
We are seeing a lot of really unique things on the marksmen, breaking attack speed cap, auto crit, 1200 range autos, and lots of other cool stuff. There was once a time when master yi had a multiplicative attack speed boost and Tryndamere had ramping crit damage, but they were culled because the play pattern was deemed too exceptional. Now that play patterns are being retuned to allow champions to be exceptional, are you reconsidering the previous decisions made based on the era of the old philosophy?
We need marskmen less and less for their damage vs towers, as we have more and more options for sieging and damaging towers-- even tanks have a way to itemize into siege now; this frees up marksmen to do things that make them special and different. Now that we are starting to see the start of marskmen take other positions than bot lane, and other champions go bot besides marksmen, are you considering enabling melee carries to go bot lane with itemization or kit changes? Both marksmen and melee carries do sustained melee damage so isn't their high level job in a healthy game similar? If not, is it because the game cannot support them in a healthy state as is, or is it because the game does not support them in a healthy state as is? Have you considered ways of making their laning in the bot lane engaging, and ways to emphasize the strengths they have that marskmen do not have? Do you think it is possible to sustain through the ranged harass with all the changes you have made to the masteries and items?
What strengths do melee carries have that marskmen don't have or can't have exactly? Is it fair to ask that question in such general terms? Would it be more fair to ask what strengths a specific marksmen has that a specific melee carry doesn't have and vice versa? If so, what is something that would be difficult or impossible to execute as an idea on a ranged champion because of inherent balanceability issues, but would be perfect for a melee carry? Do any of the itemization changes align with that?
Now that the reigns have been loosened, what ideas did you previously deem too problematic to put in a champion kit that you are now reconsidering?
If the nerfs to teleport do not persuade aggressive top laners to take it over ignite and ghost, just because of its raw general power, will you consider giving champions an incentive to take other summoners? One of the extraneous powers of teleport is the ability to build super tanky and just teleport away while being hit with auto attacks-- in fact this is a hidden cost to any top laner that doesn't have some hard cc innately in their kit, like trynd or nid for example, so it does exert an influence to limit the variety of top laners. Could you consider making teleport interruptible with 3 to 5 hits, kind of like a ward? If not, will you consider making it so that ignite can interrupt teleport?
Aren't you concerned that rage blade's ridiculous full stack efficiency, the ease with which 4 stacks can be acquired, the power of gunblade's health restore will make jax a problem? He can convert the ability power and attack damage into resistances and damage, convert the damage into health, and accelerate the damage and health gain with attack speed. Jax has always had the capacity to become a tanky sustained damage based fighter, but the efficiency of rage blade makes it possible for him to reach that point about a thousand gold sooner. Why is rage blade so exceptionally efficient?
Kayle is going to need nerfs isn't she?
Will you consider updating the runes to reflect the updated itemization? For example, you could bring crit chance up to parity with attack damage and attack speed.

A Naughty Kitten10/30/2015, 3:02:32 AM1 votes

Why the huge push to make Marksman itemize crit? Tons of new/changed items have crit involved in them, and a lot of Marksman that might not have used crit as much before now have changes to their kit that utilize/improve crit.

Adalvar10/30/2015, 3:46:51 AM1 votes

One detail... I watch Corki's Mega W in action, but one thing that seems a bit counter-intuitive is the knock-aside. The Mega W has Rumble-ult levels of damage that don't get used much because the you get knocked outside of the carpet area and thus out of your own AOE damage. The idea from what i gathered is to give Corki this massive teamfight changing tool. Why not make it so Corki ignores stuff like unit colision and CC for the dash duration so he can use as a damage AOE tool, rather than a clunky engage tool.

Ultraboomer10/30/2015, 5:16:33 AM1 votes

so I'm unaware if this was asked yet, or if you're still answering questions, but now that runaan's hurricane is actually going to be a truly viable (at least) item for ashe I can ask some things I've wanted to ask for a while. when ashe uses flurry item 3085 launches it's extra bolts for each bolt in the flurry. Is this visual or real, is this intentional, and do they apply on hit effects every time or just once? if this unintended will it be fixed in her preseason changes by the time we see them on live?

what you deserve10/30/2015, 8:30:20 AM1 votes

Just a quick question about Mejai's. It builds from another item now, do the stacks transfer when you upgrade it or do they reset to 5?

Chrissxy198910/30/2015, 9:11:28 AM1 votes

quinn's ult looks pretty underwhelming now. less MS than before and no fighting stats.

also: why did you remove her blind? it was a skillshot with more than enough counterplay

Valenten10/29/2015, 6:44:57 PM1 votes

So which marksmen will feel most like the marskmen that kills everything that approaches them to closely.

Chrissxy198910/30/2015, 10:49:32 AM1 votes

since some items interact in a special way with crits now. could we please get a clarification on what exactly is considered a crit and what is not (talking about some rioter talking about certain spells counting as crit some weeks ago)

Mansana10/29/2015, 6:51:29 PM1 votes

{{summoner:2}} in my opinion is a useless summoner spell in terms of competitive utility. Are there any plans to remove it? If so, what are your thoughts on actually fulfilling Quinn's scouting thematic by making her W clairvoyance itself? It makes little sense that a Quinn (who's lore is revolved around scouting, roaming, and gathering info) has weaker vision utility than Kalista or Ashe.

Edit: Did I make you sad?

aperson110/29/2015, 6:52:52 PM1 votes

How is Firecannon going to work on melee champs (especially the longer ranged ones) animation-wise? You're not seriously going to tell me Darius W'ing at 300 range is going to look like it makes sense.

Adalvar10/29/2015, 6:55:01 PM1 votes

When Rapid Firecannon charges, will the Energized empower only work for 1 auto or will it work for a short duration (say 2-3 seconds) and what's the charge ratio on it? Is it Shiv fast or Zeke's low?

Declined10/30/2015, 11:07:11 AM1 votes

I've read all the comments in the previous threads and I've yet to find anything regarding Draven, not one peep.

Last Draven had a buff was one that turned out to be a noob trap (reaching 6 consecutive minion kills without dropping axes) but the cd on it was too low and it turned into a major disadvantage in actuality. Then you changed it from 6 to 12 sec and didn't announce it anywhere.

I wrote a pretty extensive topic regarding it, and the challenges Draven face, in this new game, as the obstacles he has to overcome are now far greater, such as zhonya (Bard), untargetable+'stun' (Tahm), walls (Yasuo/Braum) which are just some that can screw up juggling his Q.

Not to mention the current meta of bruisers/heavy champions running rampant in bottom lane during the laning phase, at a point where you're just getting to have some full items. Which means that the point of the game where you're supposed to snowball as Draven now turns against you.

Then there are all the new mobility champions and obstacles he have to overcome, overall too many champions and options are now available to make Draven's life very troublesome, have you thought of any changes that would highlight his role as a 'high dps snowball adc' ?

Personally I would have a look at his E, and W, if you tamper with the mechanics of his Q a lot of people are going to be extremely sad. Adding a QoL to his ult would be cool, to show how far it will travel after being activated a 2nd time. Or what about having 2 stacks of Q if you activate your ult.

I'm just throwing it out there, but what is the plans for Draven?