Midseason AD Itemization Changes

RiotRiot Axes·4/11/2017, 2:04:25 AM·1 votes·95,560 views

Hi folks,

We’ve got some tuning-level changes to AD itemization coming in Midseason. I wanted to give some context on those changes, since they’ve hit PBE today.

All changes are currently tentative and there’s a good chance you’ll see further tuning before they go live in the Midseason patch.

Armor Penetration There’s more armor penetration/shred in the system than really ought to exist - 52% armor pen is a pretty common stopping point these days, and many champions add a Black Cleaver and/or some Lethality to that. With so much armor penetration in the system, defensive items have to be tuned to be pretty crazy before they’re worth buying at all.

We’ll be reducing the overall amount of armor that can be ignored through item purchases, and putting that power into other sources like Critical Strike itemization, the Giant Slayer effect, and big AD purchases.

Life Steal Items Looking to balance out the Life Steal items against each other. Our assessment is that Blade of the Ruined King is a bit more powerful than an item should really be, so we’ll be trimming that a bit. At the same time, we don’t want to just balance it down to be equal with the other Life Steal items, which are likely weaker than they ought to be given the way the game is shifting. We’re looking to land all the items somewhere in the middle ground.

Look for a small nerf to Blade of the Ruined King and small buffs to Bloodthirster, Death’s Dance, and Ravenous Hydra (which has sadly fallen a bit behind its Titanic cousin :/ ).

Early Marksman Build Path We’re testing buffs to Zeal and Infinity Edge aimed at smoothing out the first two purchases for critical strike users. We’re targeting a reasonable 1-and-a-half item spike into a fairly strong 2 item spike. This will likely just be cost adjustments to Zeal itself and to Infinity Edge, making it easier to get to IE + Zeal as a power spike than before.

Zeal Upgrade Tuning We’re taking this opportunity to tune the four Zeal items – Runaan’s Hurricane, Phantom Dancer, Statikk Shiv, and Rapid Firecannon. The goal here will be both balancing them against each other and making their unique identities more clear and better differentiated.

On live, Runaan’s Hurricane is the best AOE damage option, has the best build path, and is often the best single target sustained damage option of the four thanks to its on hit damage. Look for a new build path more in line with the other items, plus the loss of on-hit damage in favor of a higher AD ratio on the secondary bolts - Hurricane will still be a powerful sustained AOE damage tool.

We’re currently exploring some changes to Rapid Firecannon and Statikk Shiv to sharpen their identities and to make the combination of the two more compelling – Rapid Firecannon charges Energized effects (itself, Shiv, and Warlord’s Bloodlust) faster but deals less burst damage, increasing its usefulness in long range engagements, while Statikk Shiv deals considerably increased burst damage to champions.

Phantom Dancer’s already meeting its goals pretty well, so no changes planned (except making it cost the same amount of gold as the other three.)

Executioner’s Calling Current assessment is that Executioner’s is too powerful as a lane counter to certain champions, but the passive is an important release valve against sustain-based champions later in the game. We’re exploring ways of making it more costly to access that power early in the game, either with a direct cost increase or by making it less reliable.

227 Comments

Mysticman894/11/2017, 2:33:32 AM18 votes

I was under the impression that it was generally more efficient for most adcs to build BF sword->zeal->completed zeal item, rather than IE->zeal. Is the intent to shift that so finishing IE before your zeal item actually is optimal?

To be clear, will Runanns lose the application of all on-hit effects on its secondary bolts, or only lose the on-hit damage that current runnans applies itself (but still applying on-hit effects from other sources)? If the former, is there anything planned as compensation for champs who rely on on-hit builds (notably kayle, but also on-hit builds for champs like kog/teemo and probably others I'm forgetting) who aren't necessarily building much ad?

Krys Star4/11/2017, 2:26:36 AM12 votes

While we're at it, can you guys look into Zeke's Harbringer and Talisman of Ascension? Both items are pretty lackluster and bland, especially Zeke's Harbringer. I have no ideas of how to improve Zeke's, except maybe make it so that it is an aoe buff that occurs around the item holder and whomever the item is linked to (much like Taric's ult). but I think it'd be much appreciated by most support mains if Talisman of Ascension built out of Forbidden Idol again instead of Raptor's Cloak.

Also Redemption and Locket of the Iron Solari needs to be looked into. I think you should force its active to be centered around the item holder, restrict its usability, and have it so healing/shielding bonus doesn't affect items.

Strohhut Ruffy4/11/2017, 5:23:41 AM11 votes

Hey,

A few thoughts from me as an ADC Main. Would it be possible to give item 1053 some extension so you can get a mid game Itemization. For example i will go for item 3072 i get an upgraded item 1053 with the shild passiv of item 3072 ? like botrk gives you item 3144 the slow part and for item 3812 you can get an upgraded item 1053 which gives u some bleed effect and so one?

Adalvar4/11/2017, 2:31:47 AM11 votes

What about item 3508? The item is a parallel to item 3031 . Is it not getting any adjustments like Infinity is?

Will individual ADC's see changes to their kits to follow with these itemization changes?

Lord Desert4/11/2017, 3:21:48 AM9 votes

What about item 3075 and item 3110? Since the HP+ Armor items have less HP and more Armor one of their main selling points, huge amounts of armor, is gone. The activs and passivs need to be extremely good and better, to choose the 90-100 Armor over 400+ HP and 60+ Armor. And remember the HP+Armor Items have passiv/actives too!

Winterkill4/11/2017, 5:05:16 AM8 votes

What are you doing for AP champions though? You can sit here and talk about AD Itemization but it seems like it is going to be in a far better place than the AP champions that are going to be gutted, because of all the MR, health regen and CC disabling tank items you are adding. Not only that the itemization for AP champions has been very lackluster the past few years and you have done absolutely nothing to address it.

item 3151 Bonus magic damage equal to 2% of the target's current health per second for 3 seconds. You are taking health out of a lot of items. How useful is this item going to become now?

item 3165 Only useful when a champion is at a specific amount of health that applies Grievous Wounds. You are adding so much MR and health regen that it is going to be very hard to do anything against tanks to proc the passive.

item 3135 Is this going to be as useful as you think against all of the MR tanks are building? What's the point when they can just heal it back up almost instantly?

Two AP items are only useful when a champion is at a specific amount of health or are building tons of health, which you made completely irrelevant when you removed health from items and are going to make almost impossible to dwindle tanks down. Void staff, Liandrys and Sorc Boots are the only options that AP champions have for Magic Pen, when AD and ADC champions have so many different options when it comes to armor pen and lethality . . . . that they can abuse together.


Why have you not considered adding more interesting items attached with Magic Pen? Say like an Armor or MR item that increases speed on a champion but has Magic Pen on it? You did it for AD and ADC champions.

Why have you have considered using the three different options for AP champions to choose from, like the Black Market Items:

Netherstride Grimoire - UNIQUE – MALICE: Gain 20% movement speed for 2 seconds whenever you deal ability damage.

Pox Arcana - UNIQUE – POX: Applies a stack of Pox for 10 seconds whenever you deal ability damage, stacking up to 5 times. UNIQUE – DISEASE HARVEST: Deals 100 magic damage plus 20 (+5% AP) per stack of Pox (maximum of 200 (+25% AP)) to all nearby enemies affected by Pox, and restores 5% of your maximum mana for every Pox stack harvested. 60-second cooldown.

Rite of Ruin - UNIQUE – RAZING: Gains charges upon moving or killing enemies, up to 300 charges. Attacking structures expends 50 charges to deal 100 (+15% AP) bonus true damage.

Why have you not added more defensive items for AP champions, like you did with ADC and AD champions . . . . stacked alongside with lethality and armor pen?


You were told all of the problems with AP champions itemization and you gave us quite frankly items that did absolutely nothing to address the problems with AP itemization. AP champions only have 3 magic pen options to choose from. AP champions have hardly any defenseive items like AD and ADC champions do. ADC and AD champions have a grevious wound item that applies on all auto attacks, while AP champions have to get enemy champions down to 30% health. A lot of their items are very bland, generic, and offer nothing new to the game or the role. You gave us an item that shoots out icicles and lunges champions forward. Great items that addressed all of the problems and really going to help AP champions with all the MR stacking, CC disabling, and health regen items you are adding to tank and their itemization.

When will you guys develop a care? You have yet to show it. You shoudl probably fix that.

Sexy Jack Rabbit4/11/2017, 2:48:41 AM8 votes

So you're going to keep an eye on Yasuo right? Because boy I'm sure this update will be JUST swell for him.

Raxistaicho4/11/2017, 3:09:15 AM6 votes

I'd like to see a post like this addressing the tank item updates from a mage's perspective.

TotalJerk4/11/2017, 4:02:51 AM5 votes

[{quoted}](name=Riot Axes,realm=NA,application-id=A7LBtoKc,discussion-id=Ejyoz66h,comment-id=,timestamp=2017-04-11T02:04:25.098+0000)

Executioner’s Calling Current assessment is that Executioner’s is too powerful as a lane counter to certain champions, but the passive is an important release valve against sustain-based champions later in the game. We’re exploring ways of making it more costly to access that power early in the game, either with a direct cost increase or by making it less reliable.

IMO Grievous wounds should be moved from passives to actives and the items that carry it should be rebalanced/tuned accordingly.

Another idea would be making the application of it more favorable in itemization towards tanks/supports. Low damage champions currently do basically net negative damage against healing champs/builds. It feels like shit when you catch a light fighter or AD assassin with item 3072 or item 3074 at 3% health and not only does he effortlessly kill you, he ends up healthier for you having even tried to finish him. I know Rito is going for "outplay" nowadays, but for some champions the simple fact that they bought a item 1053 can make them completely impossible to put down without a carry regardless of their health when you catch them.

These could both be bad ideas in practice, but I'm just throwing them out there.

Rememdium4/11/2017, 2:36:01 PM4 votes

[{quoted}](name=Riot Axes,realm=NA,application-id=A7LBtoKc,discussion-id=Ejyoz66h,comment-id=,timestamp=2017-04-11T02:04:25.098+0000)

Executioner's Calling Current assessment is that Executioner's is too powerful as a lane counter to certain champions, but the passive is an important release valve against sustain-based champions later in the game. We're exploring ways of making it more costly to access that power early in the game, either with a direct cost increase or by making it less reliable.

How about increasing the healing reduction progressively while you're in combat with that enemy?

Mordepool4/11/2017, 2:49:53 AM4 votes

Steraks gage where ? Nowhere. Oh that's right it's just a failed item waiting for deletion

Edit: just so you all know this comment was posted before any changes to Steraks made it to the PBE. Frankly could be the reminder Riot needed to change it

I Sushi I4/11/2017, 4:24:17 AM4 votes

What about Mercurial Scimitar? I know it's not used primarily as a life steal item, but it gives lifesteal. Are you guys going to touch on that or is it not part of the core lifesteal items/doesn't need to be on par with them?

La Bello4/11/2017, 8:16:57 AM4 votes

Wait ..Is this the "crit changes" Riot was bragging about going through with that was going to solve crit marksmen problem? not gonna lie I though the changes would be bigger than some slight price adjustments. I thought we were getting a entire mini-rework to the crit mechanic lol.

Muzét4/11/2017, 9:37:12 AM4 votes

What about releasing a tank item that allows them to apply grievous wounds via CC ? And why does Morellonomicon got a weaker version of Grievous Wounds than Executioner ?

Sun Wu Ryuumoku4/11/2017, 12:49:48 PM3 votes

assassins will abandon item 3134 items again for pure AD.

SuperPewPew4/11/2017, 5:02:18 AM3 votes

Why buff Death's Dance though?

It might not be the most attractive choice, but it makes Graves quite strong atm.

Ale non è male4/11/2017, 8:47:08 AM3 votes

With the actual state of things, you can never make viable at the same time all the kind of AD damage dealers...Not every kind of damage dealers should be effective at the same time, but you got to get a baseline to work upon.

The different kind of mechanics you deal damage through AD are too much interconnected, which means balance for one effect all the others and always make one dominant

On-hit/AS - DPS - Crit - Burst/spellcast all affect each others, and not all these things should synergize together perfectly, you should have one of the rock-paper-scissor system have a less than optimal combination for a specific target goal

So you got to aim to make items more specific and with less synergies like you are trying to do with resistences items on your midseason tank update

Listen Rioters, as long as you do not accept that BotRK must scale also with max hp% while being weaker overall and vs squishies and thus synergize more heavily with the Titanic Hydra (to adjust accordingly making it weaker and being less effective as AoE) Giant Slayer and Grevious Wounds effectys, you will always have a big problem with AD and armor/HP itemization (as well as strengthening those item counters on the defensive side) As long as you don't accept that As items must offer bigger tradeoffs towards either AS or Crit or DPS or AoE effects mainly through raw stats, you can't avoid the issue of entire classes running the same itemization, and thus having a small meta, because you can't touch the different stats separately. As long as items like The Black Cleaver or the Trinity Force are effective at the same way against any kind of target you can't properly manage each one of them to have anyone its own baseline of effectiveness in any meta without being crowded by a better option (and imho, It is ok that different things are stronger at different points, but most things should be viable at the same time)

88Kench4/11/2017, 2:12:30 PM3 votes

What about champs like Yasuo that build Infinity Edge and Zeal early? Isn't this kind of an insane buff to him?

Critkeeper4/11/2017, 3:28:39 AM1 votes

[deleted]

MatthewRT24/11/2017, 6:27:25 AM1 votes

So last season was the grand nerf of mages and this year is the year of making AD broken so next year ap champs are going to get a bunch of ap armor items? With the addition of scaling MR the AD items shouldn't need as much MR on them if any anymore, since you added AD to Guardian angel making a bad decision to puck up if you are AP and have nerfed the amount of AP items give mages are slowly being snuffed out to where only a few mages are viable.

Jhinfamy4/11/2017, 3:50:58 AM1 votes

Remove on hit from Runaan's Hurricane... correct me if I'm wrong, but this makes Cait passive no longer super-stackable with the item. If that's right, she'll be put in the dirt for good, only to be replaced by jinx.