Quick Gameplay Thoughts: May 16

RiotMeddler·5/16/2018, 3:50:51 PM·1 votes·37,563 views

Hi folks,

Usual Disclaimers

These posts will often contain talk about future work we're doing, or planning to do, that isn't yet guaranteed to ship. The nature of the work could change or, depending on what we discover, projects mentioned may get put delayed or even stopped. If you'd like to see a Tweet whenever a new one of these posts goes up: https://twitter.com/RiotMeddler

True Damage

Since we've got a couple of new high profile sources of true damage (Conqueror and the upcoming IE change) figured it would be a good time to talk about our thinking around it.

Recap:

  • True Damage is damage that's not reduced by Armor or MR. No other effects increase or decrease it (damage amps like Press the Attack, Damage Reduction like Alistar ult etc). It can be blocked by shields/invulnerabilities. It's usually spell damage (e.g. Cho ult that applies things like spell vamp) or proc damage (doesn't trigger most effects).

Why we use it:

  • On paper, true damage sounds like it's just plain better than other damage and, point for point, that's almost always true. What true damage also does however is level the playing field a lot between how effective an ability or attack is against a tanky target versus a squishy one. Defensive heavy enemies can therefore take meaningful damage without the damage in question having to be so high it's excessive against everyone else.
  • To give an example, let's assume two targets, one with 80 armor and one with 240. Against a physical damage hit of 600 damage the 80 armor target takes 333 damage (44% reduction). The 240 armor target takes 150 damage (75% reduction). If that's the desired contrast in damage, perfect, physical damage makes sense. Things get trickier however if you need to offer more tank killing power. Let's say for arguments sake that 250 damage against tanks is needed here for the champ in question to be effective at fighting enemy front lines. To get that using physical damage alone we'd have to push damage against our squishy target up to 555. Using true damage by contrast we can drop damage against the squishy down to 250 if that's desirable, or use a partial true damage conversion if still after some difference.

Why not just use more Armor/Magic Pen?

  • Armor/Magic Pen also narrow that gap between squishy and tanky targets. We've got a lot of those effects in the game too as a result and they're particularly useful when you want a mid point between 'equal damage to everybody' and 'very large contrasts in how hard you hit people'.
  • For cases where you want complete equality, full true damage is the way to go. For things like Conqueror or IE though you could accomplish the same sorts of results using % pen, rather than a partial conversion to true damage. True Damage has the benefit of being easier to understand the impact of in game though, both for the user and the victim.
  • For the victim, seeing physical damage of 600 points for example might suggest you should build a lot of Armor. If that damage is ignoring most of your Armor already however (e.g. GP barrels stacked with % pen or shred) building health's often going to be the better defensive choice. A partial conversion to true damage makes it clearer that that's the case by contrast.
  • For the applier of the True Damage benefits are a mixture of satisfaction and better understanding of the power of the effect they've got.

But there's no counterplay to True Damage!

  • Item counterplay to True Damage is lower, that's true. Item options still exist though. Health and shields are the primary item responses. Depending on the circumstances though effects like Frozen Heart's Attack Speed Slow, Zhonya's invulnerability, QSS's ability to prevent getting locked down in the first place etc are still strong responses to True Damage threats.
  • Counterplay's also not just something that exists in the item system - there's more to it than just 'what item do I buy do beat this thing'. Less item counterplay does mean a heavier burden on other types of counterplay though certainly, which is why we'll often use true damage particularly on melee effects and/or sustained damage, rather than ranged burst for example.

Frequency of True Damage

  • We've been using True Damage more than launch LoL/early seasons did. That's due to a belief on our part that it's a valuable tool for helping balance the game that was underutilized.
  • Shouldn't expect a constant rush of new True Damage effects though. Post Conqueror and IE we don't have anything in the pipe, at least so far, that would offer True Damage to a wide audience. Likely it crops up on some individual kits over the next year of course. At present only one of the new champs/VGUs currently in development has True Damage on their kit, possible that number changes though certainly.

Pyke Feedback

Now that Pyke's on PBE feedback would be especially appreciated if you're playing him on a few things in particular:

  • How you find his performance as a support versus other positions. Pyke's got some tools (basic ability hard CCs) we don't normally allow assassins or assassin like kits. There's some risk that counterplay that's ok when he's on a lower XP and gold income as a support and needs an ally's help to get kills generally won't be appropriate if he's able to function solo
  • How you find the experience of playing alongside him as an ally. Particularly interested in things like whether you can understand his game plan plus how much he's roaming and how that feels.
  • Whether, even if he's not necessarily able to play like a true assassin, he captures the feeling of it, in particular for those of you who enjoy playing assassins and have at least some interest in playing support.
  • How his build paths feel, particularly given the HP to AD conversion on his passive.

Testing a change to tower regen

One change that's on the PBE at present that's harder to spot is that we're testing out a change to how inhib and nexus towers regenerate health.On Live those towers regenerate some health when damaged. What we're trying is having them only regenerate health up to the next 1/3 marker on them (signaled by notches on their health bars and the damaged tower animations). A tower that's at 79% health for example will still regen up to 100%. A tower at 50% would regen to 66%. And a tower at 32% would regen to 33% etc.

We're making that change in part to open up the ways you can approach taking down a base. The full regen model makes partial sieges much lower value unless you're coming back soon. It also means split pushing against an inhib tower tends to be an all or nothing thing a lot of the time. Giving partial success cases (cool, got it below 33% even if we didn't kill it) should help out those as alternative strategies to usually just blowing through the whole tower in one go, usually as a full team.

http://ddragon.leagueoflegends.com/cdn/6.24.1/img/champion/Ziggs.png

266 Comments

Shíny5/16/2018, 3:57:23 PM21 votes

Pyke is the first champ to have a notch on enemy healthbars to show when you can execute them, could this be added to other execute champs like urgot?

Tormentula5/16/2018, 3:59:44 PM18 votes

Please look into AP jungles like Elise

She's hit really hard in this "4 camp / level 2 contest scuttle" meta and the loss on machete attack speed with no compensation really holds her down in combination with her base AD nerf from 7.18 worlds. Mana isn't an issue for her so the new changes are meaningless to experienced players. She much rather prefers MS over CDR especially since she got her MS nerfed in 6.2 I think because of echoes, and now she doesn't have that either.

AP junglers minus eve in general were struggling before these changes, now the new runic ruins all of them.

https://youtu.be/nc8tK1VJ1jY?t=301

Algorithmic Bias5/16/2018, 4:24:42 PM12 votes

item 3174 Athene's gives 30AP but item 3108 Codex gives 35AP. It also lost AP due to the D.Ring and Talisman changes. Can you guys fix this please? Also, item 3311 frostfang gives 50% mana regen, but item 3092 Watchers gives 25%

Sire Hippington5/16/2018, 8:41:51 PM11 votes

I still really dislike the IE-truedamage. I think Truedamage on it's own is a great mechanic, but also one with a very specific power and low ways to counteract it. As such, i think it's a great way to accentuate a champons kit to make big abillities target agnostic and thus feel strong and imactfull(cho and darius ult are great examples), or to Establish a champion as high threat vs targets with high defstats(Olaf, Vanye, Fiora) However, this is something that makes those champions unique, allows them to shine when picked vs target that else have high damage reduction and thus creates and identity for them. The problem with IE(and also conqueror) is that it gives that to every crit user which lessens the uniques off truedamage in a champions kit and thus denies potential meaningfull design space for champs. However, the main reason why i dislike truedamage on IE is that tankiness in the late already feels very weak. ADC already often skip %pen all together in favour of more crit cause their damage vs tanks is sufficient even with out it, resulting in more damage vs squishys. With the truedamage conversion, there will be even less reason for adc to sacrifice raw damage for the %pen. Also, one of the most imprtant mechanics for tanks vs crit dps are Tabis and Randuins with their %reduction that isn't affected by arpen, while truedamage does bypass any damage reduction. This is also a big issue for tank mechanics. A champ like Alistar for example relies alot on high %reduction that keeps him alive in a specific window of time. Right now, only specific champs with truedamnage in their kit can bypass that, the rest has to play around that window. With truedamage beeing more accesible for all, such tank skills that creat meaningfull gameplay through windows of power get less and less impactfull. The damage conversion also causes some issues with Death's dance physical damage vamp, and i#m not 100% sure how it works with normal lifesteal.

For the victim, seeing physical damage of 600 points for example might suggest you should build a lot of Armor. If that damage is ignoring most of your Armor already however (e.g. GP barrels stacked with % pen or shred) building health's often going to be the better defensive choice. A partial conversion to true damage makes it clearer that that's the case by contrast. For the applier of the True Damage benefits are a mixture of satisfaction and better understanding of the power of the effect they've got.

For me, looking at my opponents items and reacting to them is part of the game and an important skilltest, same with knowing my opponents kit and what he does. Game knowledge should be a helpfull thing and not just trivial. So GP's barrel beeing contered by health rather than armor despite doing high physical damage isn#t a clearity issue imo. It just means that you have to respect you're opponents gear and kit. As for the applier, the improved statisfaction and clearity holds true for full truedamage hits like Reksais E, but on a low key damage conversion, it doesn't really bring more statisfaction than a %pen effect or any other form of damage amp, and the clearity isn't higher than on %pen. Both pretty clearly communnicate that they help dealing with high resitances. Actually, for most players i feel like they highly overate the truedamage and have difficulty understanding that only a samll % of the damage is converted. I often meet players that some how think 20% converted to truedamage means 20% more damage. People were expected to grasp the concept of %pen in the past, and most did, so i don't see any clearity issues that need to be adressed via truedamage here....

ƒrostγ5/16/2018, 4:04:04 PM10 votes

IS there anything new you can say about Lissandra ?

Shaian5/16/2018, 4:43:08 PM9 votes

Do you think sorcery lacks a keystone for Control/Battlemages?

Greedy Pikachu5/16/2018, 4:32:36 PM9 votes

You gave funny AP ratios to shyvana and Zac.

What about giving some to Ornn ? We need that BBQ Ornn build ! item 3089

ThornyZyra5/16/2018, 5:10:59 PM8 votes

Are Zyra changes coming in todays pbe update?

meteorbreaker5/16/2018, 4:13:02 PM7 votes

Hello Meddler! How are you? I hope you are well. Last time you talked about small changes for Zyra. In my opinion this is not a good decision. More detailed work is needed here. Do you see in it the potential of a mage? In the quality of solo carry? I would like to see the changes now have been more of this. But it is less to look at her role as a position of support. Try this time to go from the position of the mage,let her blossom like a beautiful mage...

Ty for attetnion :)

Slice n Dice em5/16/2018, 4:16:34 PM6 votes

Can you do something about Pyke's bandanna? Teaser's bandanna would be nice if it gets added.

Also can you stop adding more items on PBE like Lifeline, Spectral Cutlass, Bloodletter's Veil and Ghostwalkers, they need to be added on 8.12 PBE cycle not the current one, so that you could focus more on balancing the already changed items. With bot lane changes, solo kill gold changes, shutdown down gold changes. I personally think you are adding way more uncertainty with more newer items.

RoseburyNoire5/16/2018, 4:04:29 PM5 votes

Hey Meddler!

A long time ago, you guys tried implementing a change about toggle abilities being usable while stunned. I remember Jinx was supposed to be able to use Switcheroo! while hard cced, but it was removed due to a bug. Are you planning on re-implementing such a thing sooner or later?

Thank you for your good work! :)

PandaNator435/16/2018, 3:57:12 PM4 votes

Why not use percent health damage rather than true damage? I'm sure there is an obvious answer, but it escapes me.

Greedy Pikachu5/16/2018, 4:26:00 PM4 votes

[deleted]

SonicÐeHedgedawg5/16/2018, 4:42:42 PM4 votes

Hi there Meddler, having a good day?

A couple questions about itemization changes:

1 - bloodthirster. If the thought is to make it slightly more attractive, how about smoothing out it's build path making it build out of a BF sword and TWO vampiric scepters instead of 1 Sceptre and a long sword?

2- Runic Echos - I question that this will truly open up the jungle for many new AP champions, but either way, since AD champions have different options depending on if they value attack speed or raw AD, is there any REAL reason we couldn't have 2 AP options? The current one with Mana and CDR and an alternative work movespeed and magic pen for assassins?

Heretic7985/16/2018, 8:51:26 PM4 votes

True damage was well explained, but I still hate it. It makes me feel like all the gold I put into being a tank is useless. It makes my future buys feel useless. I especially hate any form at all of percent health true damage. Even though it is a useful tool for a developer, going to shop and realizing that armor won't do anything to help you is a horrible feeling. There should be less true damage in the game.

Vanjie5/16/2018, 9:01:12 PM4 votes

[New] Nimbus Cloak (S2) [Back for more testing!]

Takes place of The Ultimate Hat
Effect:

    "Shortly after casting your Ultimate ability, gain a decaying movement speed increase that lasts for 3s and allows you to pass through units. 

    Increase: 100 Movement Speed
    Cooldown: 60s, reduced by Cooldown Reduction"

A serious question Meddler, why do we have another movement speed enhancing rune? Sorcery already has Phase Rush, Water Walking and now Nimbus Cloak? Don't you think it is already overloaded with watered down runes and Keystone masteries that increase movement speed? Isn't there anything else more unique and exciting you can come up with than just another movement speed enhancing mechanic in the tree? I cannot believe you are allowing this to go through.

Let's also add that Fleet Footwork, Predator, Relentless Hunter, and Time Warp Tonic all increase movement speed. So every tree has one movement speed altering mechanic, but the Sorcery Tree has three now. Are you telling me the only way this tree can become relevant is if it has three movement speed altering mechanic? You really cannot come up with anything better that replaces Ultimate Hat?

Flavi Kang5/16/2018, 10:08:36 PM3 votes

Will there be any changes to randuins in 8.11? Since it is the anti-crit item and will lost its effectiveness vs the IE true damage.

DeathBurst5/16/2018, 5:06:41 PM3 votes

There was a lot of discussion about proposed changes to Celerity, and you didn't participate in any of it (that I could see).

https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/developer-corner/B3kWBlWr-quick-gameplay-thoughts-may-11?comment=0008 (top voted comment in your previous post, and many other sub-threads mentioned it) https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/AJAeooys-dont-change-celerity-rework-absolute-focus (thread with +90 upvotes)

Can you say a few words today?

Mostly, people like me are worried Celerity will become too situational and not useful for out champs, and we want the possibility of a heavy trade-off between MS and something else. We understand that giving virtually free MS to everyone is a bad thing, but champions who are ready to pay for it should be able to get it.

Psychout405/16/2018, 4:07:10 PM3 votes

Do you feel Pyke will need itemization support that may open up more AD based support items? Besides Cleaver there’s very few items that have team utility and give AD. Do you thinking items to fill those niches would open up more champs for the support position like Ashe, Poppy, or Trundle who have AD ratios and deal physical damage?

TheSingularity5/16/2018, 8:57:57 PM2 votes

Hi meddler

Just wondering what happened the the Yasuo changes discussed in 2017. Were they tossed out? Didn't turn out ideal? Would love to know

The Die Is Cast5/16/2018, 11:12:27 PM2 votes

@Meddler

You guys nerfed Elise's movespeed because of Runic Echoes, could you give it back please?

I Ban Freelo 5/16/2018, 8:50:00 PM

Ideas of changes to Fizz?