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Upcoming Bounty Changes

RiotRiot Jatt··1 votes·234,897 views

Upcoming Bounty Changes

Hey everyone, Jatt here. There are some changes to bounties coming to patch 9.6. We’ve noticed some confusion around the bounty system, and we think we can better explain our philosophy and what is actually going on. So, I wanted to start this post with my best effort to explain the system as it currently exists, then I’ll get into what we’re changing, and also why the system exists.

Bounty Rules (Preseason-Now) Since preseason, four factors have contributed to bounties:

  • Base kill gold This is usually 300g but decreases as the target racks up death sprees

  • Kill streak gold 150g at 2 kills, 300g at 3, every kill after that adds +100g (kill streaks are worth roughly 100g per kill overall)

  • CS gold (we want large gold advantages from farming to add to your bounty) This one is detail heavy, but the intention is that you will get a bounty if you have SUBSTANTIALLY more farm gold than the enemy team's average since your last death. Enemy team average is determined by summing the opponent team monster+minion gold since your last death and dividing by 4 (for the 4 gold streams of top/mid/bot/jungle). There’s a threshold of a +100g advantage before CS bounties start tracking (starts at 50g), and then every additional +150g above the enemy average adds 50g to bounties.

  • Global bounty reduction (for teams that are losing) This is a big source of confusion since it’s never been explained clearly. If your TEAM is behind, your kill streak and CS streak bounties are lower. The further behind your TEAM is, the more your bounty decreases. This is a lever that helps allow for comebacks, and makes the cases of “I was just CSing to try and get back in the game” or “I’m 5-0 but the rest of my team is feeding” less punishing. Here’s the formula: Beginning at a 3% TEAM gold deficit, bounties are reduced to 80% of their normal values. This scales linearly down to 60% value at an 8% gold deficit, then scales linearly down to a minimum of 20% value at a 24% gold deficit.

Now, let’s see what’s changing in patch 9.6: Updated Bounty Rules (9.6+) CS bounties will be roughly 25% smaller and account for support item gold.

  • NERFED :: CS bounties reduced by approximately 25% (50 Bounty per 150g >>> 50 Bounty per 200g)
  • NEW :: CS bounties decrease when you lose your advantage
  • NEW :: Support item gold contributes to bounties
  • TEAM AVERAGE :: Now account for the addition of support item gold and divide CS gold by 4.3 rather than 4. (This and the above line won't have a significant impact on bounty values, but make the system a little more accurate.)

Big CS bounties are most often seen in pro, because pro players naturally put more resources into the ADC. Because of this, ADC minion/monster gold advantage over the enemy team is usually large enough to create a bounty. To put some numbers to it, in patch 9.4, an ADC needed to be 2200 gold ABOVE THE ENEMY AVERAGE in Minion and Monster gold to gain a +700 CS bounty (would display as Bounty + Kill value, usually 1000g). With the patch 9.6 changes, the ADC will need to be 2900 gold ABOVE THE ENEMY AVERAGE to gain a +700 CS bounty.

Bounty scoreboard visualization

  • BASE VALUE :: Scoreboards and chat no longer include the 300 base kill gold
  • FIRST BLOOD :: First blood gold is no longer added to bounty numbers if it hasn't occurred yet

On patch 9.6 the scoreboard display for bounties will only be bounty gold, not base kill gold + bounty gold. We think that putting +450g on the scoreboard was actually a mistake, as many players think that death is worth 300 kill gold + another 450g. In reality, it’s just 300 kill gold +150g, and it's debatable whether or not that +150g should even be played around. (For instance, a minion wave at 25 minutes is worth 195 gold.) We think showing +150g more accurately presents that decision.

It's also worth noting that First Blood gold was being added, meaning that the first 150g bounty would show up visually as 550g! This is a huge psychological difference. Now it just states 150g.

Why CS bounties exist

I want to talk a little bit at the end here about why CS bounties are valuable for the game. CS has historically been the BEST way to gain an advantage in League since farming let you build gold leads without triggering anti-snowball mechanics. As a result higher-tier players tend to get more gold through CS and less from taking risks, since going for kills not only carries a high risk of failure, but success adds to your kill bounty.

But bounties are meant to be a reward for killing powerful or valuable members of the enemy team, not necessarily members with lots of kills. In pro for instance, teams funnel tons of CS into their carries. We think it’s GOOD that the bounty system is more accurately assessing their power.

As for snowball, some is good. When you do well, you should be rewarded IF you can use that lead to carry. Mess up or get outplayed, opponents should get to mitigate some (but not all) of that snowball because they also deserve to be rewarded for doing well (aka anti-snowball).

We know from iterations of League that had fewer anti-snowball mechanics, what it looks like when games snowball out of control—the winner of the first teamfight just wins the game.

With the preseason additions of turret plating and stronger first drakes, we knew the ability for a team to snowball was increasing so we wanted to strengthen the ability for a team to come back from behind too. Adding CS bounties helped counter that higher amount of snowball in the game and has struck a closer balance between kills and farming since both forms of advantage add to your bounty now. That said, they've been aggressively tuned and we absolutely agree there have been cases that felt “off”. 9.6's changes to tuning and in-game representation should help them feel more healthy. Anyways, hope this clears up some bounty stuff and why we think CS bounties are good for the game.

Let us know what you think in the comments!

Viktor

276 Comments

Rathar Dashing148 votes

So does this mean you can revert the awful changes to Spellthief's and Coin?

DartExplosion1020 votes

[{quoted}](name=Rathar Dashing,realm=NA,application-id=A7LBtoKc,discussion-id=BQEfgyrs,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2019-03-14T16:07:19.343+0000)

So does this mean you can revert the awful changes to Spellthief's and Coin?

Don’t know why this is downvoted, it was an atrocious change

VolatileAkali5 votes

What change

TheBlackArrow8 votes

Have to be near an allied member for it to proc the gold bonus, even if you have stacks on the supp item

Frosted Tips33 votes

This is still upsetting that 2 kills is still worth 450 gold. That is 75% of the gold for the 2 kills the other player got. that is a item 1006 I just don't get why early bounties are so strong. I was really hoping you guys would realize that is just a little too forgiving. All that needed to happen was it being moved down to 400 gold IMO. Why is the 2 kill bounty just so effective? I'm genuinely curious why it is so strong.

RiotRiot Jatt34 votes

So, want to clarify a bit here. 2 kills is only worth +150 gold of bounties. (+75 gold per kill, only counting after the 2nd kill). So the shutdown kill is worth (300)+150 = 450g Roughly 25% of the gold from the two kills is applied as a bounty

If 75% of the gold from 2 kills was being rewarded back as a bounty, the total value of the shutdown kill would actually look like (300)+450 = 750g. I would completely agree that that number would be out of line.

Also, separate point, I think there is a misconception that 2 kills being worth +150 is new to this season. In, fact that part of the kill bounty system has existed for as long as I can remember.

Frosted Tips20 votes

So, want to clarify a bit here. 2 kills is only worth +150 gold of bounties. (+75 gold per kill, only counting after the 2nd kill). So the shutdown kill is worth (300)+150 = 450g Roughly 25% of the gold from the two kills is applied as a bounty

Sorry what I was trying to say is that 2 kills are worth 600 gold. Also, 1 kill on a target with a bounty for having 2 kills is worth 450 gold. That is 75% of 600. That is what I mean by 75%.

Also, separate point, I think there is a misconception that 2 kills being worth +150 is new to this season. In, fact that part of the kill bounty system has existed for as long as I can remember.

Yes, but at drastically smaller values. That is the point I'm trying to make.

RiotRiot Jatt21 votes

Fair point! Currently we're pretty happy with these numbers due to the 'difficulty' of killing someone who is 2/0 (or greater) as someone who usually has less gold.

Zooming out a bit: if the 0/2 person manages to kill the 2/0 person TWICE, they'll receive 750 gold total for the 2 kills, compared to the 600 gold the first person received for starting 2/0.

If we notice that games become too hard to close out/snowball then we could look to reduce the number.

churdd3 votes

should bounties be based on spent gold then to better reflect actual power?

Prezto11 votes

No because if you are sitting on upwards of 1.5k gold without basing to spend it that is your fault. Player would try to dodge the bounty by not spending until hitting enough gold for a big powerspike and then come back with a large item. Like waiting for AS boots and Zeal on Yasuo.

Fajerk4 votes

If I recall correctly, initially there was no bounty for 2 kills and about +100G for 3 kills. However it was quite long time ago when overall gold in the game was lower and wards were quite expensive - those 100g had insane value.

It was around s3 -s4 when 2 kill bounty got added, it was like 75g. Also max bounty was still capped at pretty low value. Overall the game was pretty snowbally back then. But even with that, overall gold in the game was lower, ambient gold was lower, turrets would be worth slightly less, supports were still half a champion etc.

Considering how overall gold in the game is inflated right now, higher bounty makes sense. Back then you would get like first item completed around 20 mins into game, and you would most likely have only basic boots. Getting even 75g mattered.

Right now people get more gold overall - more ambient gp10, better csing and more gold from minions, turret plates etc. You get to complete first item as fast as 10 mins when you get ahead and often around 15 mins even if you are not doing great. Lower bounty would be something you wouldn't even notice in the grand scheme of things.

There is argument to be made whenever 2 kill bounty should be a thing. I would argue that 2 kills is already a lot of downtime for your enemy, they should miss couple minion waves and you should be able to get plate advantage. Getting 150g bounty for around 1k difference that should be there seems fair. And tbh, overall level of play went really high over the years. Majority of players, even silver ones, should be capable of pushing their advantage beyond just kill gold.

In short, bounty should be something noticeable and lower values would not just cut it these days.

ModThe Djinn17 votes

Super pleased to see these changes and this explanation. I definitely thought the number of the scoreboard was the total bounty in addition to the kill gold prior to this!

Tobykachu13 votes

I feel as though making support gold factor into this is another step in the wrong direction for player satisfaction and ends up resulting in unnecessarily making the best Spellthiefs supports, such as Brand, Bard and Vel'Koz worth more gold for no other reason than they were able to make better use of their support items.

RiotRiot Jatt19 votes

It will basically be impossible for supports to get CS bounties. Since they would need to have more than the average minion/monster gold of the opponent team (just from the supports own CS/support item gold) which.. looking at data basically never happens.

GinoSoldier3 votes

[{quoted}](name=Riot Jatt,realm=NA,application-id=A7LBtoKc,discussion-id=BQEfgyrs,comment-id=00010004,timestamp=2019-03-14T18:01:33.901+0000)

It will basically be impossible for supports to get CS bounties. Since they would need to have more than the average minion/monster gold of the opponent team (just from the supports own CS/support item gold) which.. looking at data basically never happens.

From a design perspective, could you say what prevents Riot from locking support items to the role and increasing their gold income to match a lane's? Given, of course that failsafes exist to prevent the users from also farming.

It's been suggested a thousand times, but we never really got an answer as far as i know. Thanks!

Mykon011 votes

I would hate to see this change, just i like hate any type of change that prevent people from being creative with the game. It takes alot away from the game if now there is a whole bunch of items gone.

Not to speak of the problems of implementation... how do you know who is support? how do you know if they didnt role swap... what if someone playes support but is famrming too... nah it would be terrible.

GinoSoldier2 votes

{quoted}

I would hate to see this change, just i like hate any type of change that prevent people from being creative with the game. It takes alot away from the game if now there is a whole bunch of items gone.

Not to speak of the problems of implementation... how do you know who is support? how do you know if they didnt role swap... what if someone playes support but is famrming too... nah it would be terrible.

Well, as much as i want to agree with your reasoning, as i also love trying to find new ways to play things, Riot tends to nuke things that can warp the current game's pattern. Not that we can always fault them for stomping down some of these changes, but hey.

As far as problems with implementations, the simplest way is to tie Exhaust to the support role. Possibly, letting income items serve the same way jungle items do and give variants to how Exhaust functions would alleviate most problems with this on the gameplay/variety end. It curbstomps the all-in Ignite supports who might need buffs down the line, but most people don't use exhaust out of botlane. Even so, it's no different from people once in a blue moon taking smite on non-junglers.

Keeping strict limitations on income items to prevent minion/monster farming will still be needed. Ideally, finding more skill-reliant alternatives to the current methods would be good, but can wait.

*Also, speaking of locking support items to the role, i really just meant income items. As far as i'm concerned support items should cost more, and be worth their increased costs (aka match laner's item prices. Goes hand in hand with increasing income so that someone doesn't pop a full Ardent Censer by 12-15 minutes.). The main issue that stems from that can be taken care of with anti-stacking fixes.

Galiö11 votes

Make sure to include Turret Plating as part of your CS, it's a huge amount of gold that goes largely unaccounted for.

Crush8 votes

Will you be reverting the ally range limit on support gold items? I feel like I am not rewarded for playing aggressively early on in the game unless my adc is right next to me. For instance, going into the river before the minions spawn to get 1 or 2 procs of spellthiefs gold was very satisfying, but I feel like that strategy was taken away as a result of this change. Additionally, if my adc is forced to recall early and I can stay in lane, I have no incentive to interact with my opponent now. Reverting the range change would make the early game more engaging for spellthiefs supports when I find myself alone.

Kida Nedakh8 votes

Everyone is complaining about the ward trinket issues for supports. But no one is suggesting an alternative for their change on the items. I agree with everyone about the massive gold decrease to supports due to the changes, especially on poke heavy champions who spend a long time in lane alone, like Sona, Nami, or even Janna. Instead of complaining about bringing the old trinkets back, why not suggest a new idea to try allowing for these items to retain their power?

My proposal, since NO ONE is suggesting it, is to add in a secondary time to the items. For the next 25 seconds that you are alone (IE after an ally has left lane) you can proc their gold generation effect. Must be near an ally for 30 seconds.

25 seconds is plenty of time to allow AP supports to quickly generate their charges then pull back while the ADC returns to lane, while still retaining the current anti-frostmancy meta. And in advance, one may ask 'but what if the jungler camps top lane, and funnels charges into that?' In that instance we're looking at XP funneling on the ones doing it, decrease map control by junglers, decreased gold generation for the top/mid laner and jungler, and overall punish this kind of playstyle by preventing junglers from simply camping a lane that shouldn't need it.

The upside that it would also provide is this: If the top/mid takes a support item to their lane, they have to pick that item instead of their standard lane item. However! It incentives intermittent ganking and more map pressure across all lanes by allowing people to generate gold through these items in longer fights. If top needs camped, the jungler will be up there for more than 30 seconds, meaning the jungler can CS, the top laner can focus on harass, and thus it promotes pushing out your lane and allows for recovery that isn't dramatically punished. The same goes for mid lane in this instance. It allows some chance to counteract gank heavy situations, and helps prevent your entire team from getting behind due to the jungler needing to be focused on a single lane that is losing extremely hard.

There's a lot of fringe cases in which the upside is too strong, and the downside is too negative, but that's the nature of the game. Promoting healthier Teamwork across all levels of play is better for game health, than simply applying a bandaid patch work of nerfs and buffs, complaints and praises for changes that have already happened, and no one suggesting new ideas to try and fix them. The changes happened. They're done, over with. We've seen the previous situation, and it's changed. So going back to it isn't going to fix anything, but rather simply re-apply the same issues that already existed. Suggesting new ideas will allow for change, and if those ideas aren't working, or have too many flaws, suggest newer ones.

Evolve with the game, people. Not against it.

Sona Main, OUT

[sona-playing]

CopyrightTheFinn2 votes

This honestly sounds like the best idea I have heard thus far. It definitely would still keep frostmancy abusers down, as the whole thing was based on constant proccing of the support item and even if the person had 50% JP, which is unheard of and the jungler would have to give up around 25% of their farm as well as all chances to affect any other lanes, which just would not be worth it. I don't know if 25s is long enough for the supports to get real use of it, but if a Sona main thinks so I am going to take your word for it.

Evolve with the game, people. Not against it.

This is the only sentence I disagree with here. You seem to be suggesting not changing the game just because the meta should be left to run its "natural" course of people inventing counters. But practice has proven this to be a slow and ineffective process in other games, that won't necessarily ever work. I for one am really glad Riot is maintaining their game with constant patches, and I really think it is one of the strengths of League as a game.

Sorry if I misunderstood that one or read a little too much into it. The real substance of your proposed change seems great to me. Hopefully a Riot employee sees this, so they at least consider this idea.

buggirlexpres7 votes

Hello... since you are changing the reason why support items got hotfixed, can you revert the changes to the support items?

Homemade Pasta6 votes

Out of curiosity, why don't you just show "gold for killing" in the scoreboard? I think the problem was you left off the base 300gp, so it looked off. In my opinion, it's actually far better to show the 550gp for a bounty+first blood, because that's what you actually get for killing them! Just also show 400gp for the other champs, so it's properly contextualized.

IMO, in an ideal world, the scoreboard would show the money to kill, and then on hover, a breakdown of where that money comes from. This also helps for cases where a person is feeding and is no longer even worth 300 gold.

My $.02

Kazekiba3 votes

[{quoted}](name=Homemade Pasta,realm=NA,application-id=A7LBtoKc,discussion-id=BQEfgyrs,comment-id=0009,timestamp=2019-03-14T16:22:46.463+0000)

IMO, in an ideal world, the scoreboard would show the money to kill, and then on hover, a breakdown of where that money comes from.

This sounds hella neat, actually.

{quoted}

Make sure to include Turret Plating as part of your CS, it's a huge amount of gold that goes largely unaccounted for.

I'd imagine each turret plate being worth like 5 cs for solo or 2/3 if split up, actually tracking that in the scoreboard would be interesting. Currently there's no way to look at who took what plates post-14 minutes

Kirov6 votes

Haven't done the math or anything, but from personal experience the way the game decides who is winning feels awful and is what is leading to the confusion. 3% gold difference is so miniscule and doesn't paint the full picture. There is so much more to winning a match than just who has the most gold that it seems really silly that the bounties are based on that completely.

And I get that it scales according to how much the gold difference is, but it feels really bad as someone trying to solo carry from behind to make a good play and suddenly your team is "winning" according to the game (even though in terms of map pressure and teamfight ability you are still hopelessly behind) because you collected the fat bounty on their fed player(s). Suddenly 2 or 3 of your feeding teammates have bounties on them, not because they are doing well at all, but because they have last hit some minions, you shoot up from 450g to 1000g and the enemy team has no problem taking all that gold back in just a few minutes because the reality is you are still the only one fed and can't be everywhere at once. What have I really gained by getting 1k of bounty if my feeding team is worth 1k more as a result?

Basically, their needs to be a more accurate way to decide who is winning, or this new bounty system actually makes the game even more snowbally for the already winning team if a comeback is even attempted. 3% gold difference is a very poor indicator.

Taskforce1314 votes

support player need more gold since they cant kill that much and also if you cant win the CS because your enemy pick ADC top and she / he keep attacking you we should have item that help the player in line to be able to come back if he/she play smart

Lord Raphel6 votes

Yes, the support gets almost 1/3 of the gold that the ADC has, the initial support items are expensive and we are still without a visual signaling system when we are out of the range of another champion. Playing as support is very frustrating.

Open letter to Riot about the changes on support gold items: Spellthief's Edge and Ancient Coin: https://www.reddit.com/r/lulumains/comments/atjeoy/open_letter_to_riot_about_the_changes_on_support/?utm_medium=android_app&utm_source=share

[sg-lux-2]

GonahtanuGepardi4 votes

Well i guess nerfing the cs bounty is a start but i would STILL like it better if it didn't exist. Reason? It's again a change that is completely targeted at pro scene and yet some soloq heroes and their ability to carry are affected by this change.

lntetsu4 votes

Riot Jatt I get the idea of why CS bounty are important to counter team snowballing because of the changes in the preseason (drakes and turret plates) so why make a change targeted to Pro play and fix only problems in Pro play instead of reducing the cause of snowball which will solve it to low elo as well? (for example reduce gold from turret plates which feels way too much at least in my games since people target it too hard and get a huge gold advantage)

Spideraxe3 votes

Hey jatt this is super cool that this is your first post as a designer. Can i ask how this may effect negative bounties for people behind

RiotRiot Jatt9 votes

If you're referring to the Global Bounty Reduction from the post, that part of the system was untouched.

iEddieO20 votes

Have you considered showing how much less a person who is dying a lot is worth? Since we have bounties shown it may be cool to see how little someone is worth to kill.

magmaslug239 votes

I 100% agree that this would be cool and informative. If instead of +150, you see -100. If we are able to see positive bounties, then why not negative bounties as well?

Alsius5 votes

So, while being able to see people's negative bounties would have use, I feel like it'd open people up to being toxic, especially if you could ping it. "Look how crap Ashe is doing, her bounty is -200" and so on. It'd be like being able to ping people's KDA

Raizen7252 votes

yea agreed, just gives players another tool for flaming. My only suggestion is to make your own current kill gold available for only you to see because I'd be interested in knowing if I was worth less, just make it so that no one else can see it.

GoingConcealed2 votes

That would be a fairly easy fix. Only allow the enemy team to see the negative bounty. That way teammates can't flame/ping the negative bounty, but the enemy gets valuable Intel on target analysis.

Demon Subduer3 votes

Where is the bounty system for 3v3. Would be an interesting change for once.

Vekkna3 votes

But bounties are meant to be a reward for killing powerful or valuable members of the enemy team, not necessarily members with lots of kills. In pro for instance, teams funnel tons of CS into their carries. We think it’s GOOD that the bounty system is more accurately assessing their power.

Then why not just assign a player's kill value based on their total income from all sources, where kill value is Base x %deviation from game-wide average?

Assume a game has average income of 10,000 gold, but a carry has 15,000 gold and a support has 5,000 gold. You would get 150% of base kill gold for killing the carry but only 50% of base for killing the support. The result is that the lowest-income champs are always worth the least gold, and the highest-income champs are always worth more.

Is there anything that the current system fixes more effectively and clearly than what I just described? What I'm describing here is a bounty system that actually provides anti-snowball functionality in a way that is always proportionate to the advantage or disadvantage of any player on either team. None of this nonsense where a team is getting crushed, but the losing team's assassin gives up 800g because a poorly-designed system doesn't distinguish between killing sprees and winning the game.

GreatSirZachary3 votes

I do not understand why use indirect things such as kills or CS since last death to determine bounties. Why not have bounties accumulate based on the gold difference to your counterpart on the other team. If I am top lane and I have a gold advantage over the enemy top laner I should get a bounty.

I should NOT get a bounty if I died, farmed, but have not yet gained a gold advantage over my opponent. Snowballing snowballs itself. That is to say, getting a gold advantage makes it more likely that I will get an even greater gold lead. You don't need to throw bounties on players at a gold disadvantage, it is like double dipping the snowball. I kill you so I get kill gold, you're dead so you are not farming until you respawn, AND you had a bounty so now my gold advantage is a few hundred better than it would have been otherwise.

I can understand that systems like this are in place to encourage players to play better, but do not forget that playing better on its own rewards you with more wins.

Janemaladoe3 votes

Jatt <3 I miss your voice, I miss you

RiotRiot Jatt1 votes

[deleted]

Lufty12 votes

[{quoted}](name=Riot Jatt,realm=NA,application-id=A7LBtoKc,discussion-id=BQEfgyrs,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2019-03-14T16:10:35.448+0000)

Viktor

Is there a reason kleptomancy gold isn't factored into the bounty system?

RiotRiot Jatt28 votes

Generally the same reason that GP TF, or Draven don't get larger bounties based on the gold their kit uniquely gives them. Klepto is balanced around other runes in the system, and we start getting into strange territory if it increases your bounty

EyesOfTheFox7 votes

Sounds fair, would suck to play those champions and basically be punished just for their kits existing.

Vekkna9 votes

How is that any different from assassin kits that are designed to give them kill gold?

NotACerealKiller4 votes

My best guess would be the single target damage assassins can output. An assassin can delete out of position enemies, true, but they usually have little input in a larger team fight, due to their damage being single target. Assassins also tend to die just as quickly as they can kill. Those who have increased gold as part of their kit I find typically do a lot more in team fights, and as a result have less effective damage in the name of "balance". - On that note, having a small bonus of extra gold in the kit can allow their abilities to work as intended without making the abilities of those champs to out damage the assassins themselves.

To be punished for having extra gold in place of more powerful abilities would completely negate their speciality advantage, leaving them incapable, and therefore pointless to pick.

FaxMeDarling3 votes

You should consider that Kleptomancy is a rune, so, Illaoi , for example, cant have the GotU damage+heal, or Ezreal cant have DH, comet (Or whatever you can take instead of klep for Ezreal ) bonus damage They have klep and bonus items, but no bonus rune damage, heal etc.

Oprah1Windfury1 votes

Can anyone give me a TLDR?

JayceGatsby2 votes

{quoted}

Can anyone give me a TLDR?

Yes, give your opponent two or more kills and then kill him to win the game.

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