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Experimental "Max Cast Range" Changes Coming to PBE!

RiotRiot Lutzburg·10/22/2019, 6:00:43 PM·1 votes·118,656 views

RESULTS UPDATE: After careful consideration, we have decided to fully revert this set of changes. Thanks to everyone for your feedback! This kind of thing is highly subjective and varies for all sorts of reasons. We ultimately agreed that the burden of asking players to re-learn spells was too high of a cost, even though there were benefits to the changes (especially for new players).

Hi everyone,

For the last few weeks, the team and I have been experimenting with a potential change to the way a handful of area-based spells work. To explain, let's use Miss Fortune's E as an example:

In the LIVE game, casting E outside of its maximum cast range will cause Miss Fortune to move towards the desired target area, then automatically cast the spell. On PBE, this spell (and the others listed below) will be "constrained to cast range." This means that, if cast outside of max cast range, the spell will instantly be cast at max cast range instead.

Why are we trying this? Here are our goals:

Create a more intuitive and instinctive aiming experience for players

Create a higher percentage of "success cases" when these spells are cast

Preserve player mastery opportunities and skill-based aiming

After a bit of internal testing, we came up with a list of criteria to help inform which spells could benefit from this change. From there, we arrived at the list we're pushing to the PBE for player feedback:

Heimerdinger E and RE
Miss Fortune E
Singed W
Twitch W
Varus E
Ziggs E
GANGPLANK E
VIKTOR W
SYNDRA Q

Couple of notes and thoughts to consider:

These changes are highly subjective, and there will be a meaningful cost of "re-learning" how these spells work. We're willing to accept a little bit of this cost, but not much. If reactions are mixed or negative, we'll revert them. This is an experiment, after all.

That sentiment is especially true for the last three spells written in BOLD, which we think are riskier than the rest. These were changed to potentially alleviate player input issues with things like Gangplank's barrel combos and Syndra's Q/E hit confirms. We're especially interested in how these feel to players who play these Champions a lot, so please let us know your thoughts!

Thanks,

-Lutzburg

250 Comments

Shnabbydoodle10/22/2019, 6:11:13 PM123 votes

If this gets pushed to live, please let it be an OPTION in the gameplay tab. I might use it for champions such as Ziggs or Syndra, but not so much for Gangplank. Good idea though!

QuerXes10/22/2019, 6:16:41 PM56 votes

It should be a "checkmark" option

Sune10/22/2019, 6:07:45 PM46 votes

Can you add Soraka's Q to this? It often has me walk up instead of just casting it. Nice idea

ModThe Djinn10/22/2019, 6:34:40 PM26 votes

[{quoted}](name=Riot Lutzburg,realm=NA,application-id=A7LBtoKc,discussion-id=9I7Qgbeg,comment-id=,timestamp=2019-10-22T18:00:43.800+0000)This means that, if cast outside of max cast range, the spell will instantly be cast at max cast range instead.

I can tell you confidently that this will hurt my ability to play these champions based on my current Miss Fortune and Gangplank experience. The ability to position a spell (specifically a utility/zoning spell) where I want it to be and move to that location when on the edge of my cast ranges is something I rely heavily on to do things like drop a long-range MF E on a target or position a barrel deep into enemy territory, and as a Smartcast user there isn't a clean interface for me to judge precisely when I'm at that extreme range. If I overshoot I always have time to issue a movement command to cancel the cast, but if it auto-casts at maximum range I lose the cooldown and misplace the spell.

I think without the ability to constantly display spell ranges this is going to be highly frustrating. I'm not sure it's going to be as big a deal for low-cooldown spells where responsiveness matters (Synda Q, for example), but for anything strategic or anything on a long cooldown the downsides of losing a cooldown and dropping a spell in the wrong area seems way too high given the lack of clear UI for precise spell ranges when using Smartcast functionality.

Shindae iwnl10/22/2019, 6:20:36 PM13 votes

This should definitely be an option rather than forcing it onto everyone. Especially if there are mixed opinions.

MissRippedJeans10/22/2019, 6:05:49 PM12 votes

Honestly, I really like this change. I'm not sure if its just because I'm "silver trash" but I constantly find I have issues with trying to cast a spell out of the range, my champ walking forward to try and complete the request, and myself getting caught out because of it. I appreciate the attention to this mechanic. [slayer-pantheon-thumbs]

zChimera10/22/2019, 7:01:59 PM9 votes

Honestly the ideal solution would be a toggle in the options for this type of behaviour. A change i hated for example was when you recently made this change for malphite's R, which was a terrible idea born from the post of a silver player on reddit. You can no longer buffer flash with R now. I think it's fine for the champion you listed, but it's definitely been terrible on Malphite

Off ßrand10/22/2019, 6:30:01 PM8 votes

Make it an option in gameplay please And also, add this to Heimer turrets

ΩMΕGA LUL10/22/2019, 10:06:07 PM8 votes

If you do implement it then please make it a toggle in the game options [sg-janna]

Isogash10/24/2019, 1:14:09 AM7 votes

Please please PLEASE make this toggleable as people are suggesting, I hate max cast constraining on ALL abilities, not just some of them. Whilst I appreciate the ones that are being changed, I won't be happy until I can play completely without it. I just personally prefer any non-unit-target skill to come out on the frame I input it, it's a skillshot in my mind.

When I press a button to cast any "non-unit-target" (i.e. skillshot) ability, it is because I am confident that it is within range to land. This includes champions at the edge of a ground target ability AoE. However, when casting with max-range cast on, if I want to land the skillshot immediately, I have to cast it short of the enemy champion. This is always more frustrating for me.

The "wall" scenario is the worst one though. If I want to cast at max-range and there is a wall between me and the enemy champion, pathing may choose for me to head away from the enemy in order to path into range, completely ruining my play despite the fact I was probably right about the ability being in range.

There is simply never a case where I want to wait until my champion is in range of the center of the ability AoE. I think about range in terms of edges, rather than centers. It's also just a source of clunkiness when learning a champion; it's a dealbreaker on Orianna for me.

In fact, I really don't think I can hammer my point home enough, whilst I 100% believe people's reasons to want to keep this setup on champions they have mastered (that is their preference), those reasons will never apply to me. It's not a matter of trade-offs and small preferences that can be compromised on; if an ability, has max-range constraining, it *will frustrate me. I am so, SOOO happy you are removing it from my main boi Singed, it is my least favorite part of his kit.

It's 100% preference, there is no objectively better way. Changing some existing abilities for everyone is just going to frustrate many players with mastery, which they absolutely don't deserve, and it still won't satisfy those who prefer it the other way in general. If this is being held back for "game design ideology" (this exists and I have had many IRL arguments with game designers about it) as opposed to "don't want to commit engineering effort" reasons, then I am begging you to reconsider.

Dog and Cow10/23/2019, 2:02:18 AM6 votes

Zilean Q could really benefit from this

Majeran010/22/2019, 6:46:50 PM6 votes

Allowing us to mix Quickcast with Smartcast would be more helpful.

astralwit10/22/2019, 6:54:42 PM6 votes

I really hope this isn't expanded to many champions. I can correct my own movement but want reliable ability aiming. Imagine trying to play AP Kog with this. I'm already far enough back that it's OK for me to move a few steps to hit at max range. However, it is NOT OK for me to waste R and get the mana penalty while hitting absolutely nothing.

Please do not make the new behavior default. It ruins precision and makes some champions feel terrible. Let's say I'm trying to steal baron with AP Kog R and am not quite in range so it just wastes it at the Baron wall. That would be unintuitive and annoying. For some champions I suppose it can be more reasonable but then you have one set of rules for part of the roster and another for the rest. That inconsistency only adds to the learning curve when switching champions and the arbitrary nature of it seems clunky/unintuitive.

Pylot10/23/2019, 6:32:35 AM6 votes

Adding this to Zilean Q would be a massive QoL buff to him, please look into it. On many occasions I've used Q-W-Q2 and find my first Q ends up out of range resulting in wasting W and only throwing one Q, it's especially common when trying to catch someone by a minion at max range or going for a round the corner pick.

thefance10/22/2019, 9:49:05 PM5 votes

There are certain skills e.g. (Syndra Q) that are technically ground targeted, but are practically used as spammable skillshots. The changes would probably be welcome in this case. There are other abilities that are not used as spammable skillshots (e.g. Singed W). Rather, the placement relative to the terrain is significant. The changes would probably not be welcome in this case.

Overall, I recommend a toggle in the keybinds menu.

Doomsby10/23/2019, 3:52:45 AM5 votes

I would love these changes. As a d1/masters player that plays on 70-80 ping I would personally love it for most all champs with these types of abilities, I find myself casting right outside of cast range often which causes me to walk forward and cast just a tad too slowly and the enemy has already juked into a different position.

I have to make the choice of casting it slightly less than max range to get instant casts, so for me I think this change would be a very slight buff for these champs (and cause a LOT less frustration!). Of course it would be great if there was an option for people who want the current behavior.

Edit: To specify this is beneficial because it allows me to cast INSTANTLY at MAX range which is not possible right now... I try to get as close as possible with current behavior. You currently have to cast slightly within max range to cast INSTANTLY or you have to walk slightly forward which delays you cast time for absolute MAX range.

The downside of course is you don't cast where you exactly intended, but to fix this you can use quickcast on release or you can (korean advice) learn the range better.

ACE Hot Gragas10/22/2019, 6:27:40 PM5 votes

Gragas' Q would benefit from this, a lot (as a Gragas main). Also R.

RiotRiot Lutzburg11/18/2019, 11:50:52 PM4 votes

RESULTS UPDATE: After careful consideration, we have decided to fully revert this set of changes. Thanks to everyone for your feedback! This kind of thing is highly subjective and varies for all sorts of reasons. We ultimately agreed that the burden of asking players to re-learn spells was too high of a cost, even though there were benefits to the changes (especially for new players).

Wendígo10/22/2019, 6:27:28 PM4 votes

Could you add this to Annie R too?

Lord Raphel10/22/2019, 6:45:42 PM4 votes

Since we're talking about cast range: Would it be possible to put a "Max Cast Range" on Karthus Karthus Q? I bought him skin, but I gave up playing because there is no signage it is impossible to play like this, whenever I try; he starts walking to use Q (because I have no visual sign of how far the skill goes).

[sg-zephyr]

ezelsior10/22/2019, 7:26:24 PM4 votes

Make this a toggle and push it to live, have it turned off at the start and make a large section in the patch notes about it so player's now about it or as a tip when they play the game as that champ, more variety can never be bad.

enddot10/22/2019, 8:19:53 PM4 votes

If this cannot be optionial, I don't want this.

Kîtteh10/22/2019, 8:47:50 PM4 votes

All these changes suck. Why would anyone want that? If I click outside of my cast range, I want it to be cast outside of my cast range.

Sir Rouge10/22/2019, 9:50:12 PM4 votes

Syndra main here. Just tested this on PBE and it confirmed my concerns.

PLEASE DO NOT ADD THIS TO SYNDRA'S Q

Pros:

This is definitely more intuitive

Negative:

This makes the EQ combo (inverse input of QE) way too easier to execute. As such, this is basically adding a whole new combo to her kit (since now it cannot fail and any Syndra player will use it)
Syndra's Q always going off greatly lowers her skill floor (will hit Q more often, cannot fail QE anymore, etc.)
This HINDERS high elo Syndra because you can't tether at max range anymore (it's basically lowering Syndra's Q range when she's walking forward and casting at max range)

Comments:

Even if her current Q funtionality is not very intuitive, there are good reasons why its in place.

In short:

This will boost her low/mid elo too much, where we really don't want her to be picked often
This buffs high elo Syndra (and any elo) for non-mains, while nerfing her for high-elo Syndra mains because of the tether change

In consequence (and with her already being in a great state), this will probably result in a nerf to her a couple patches later.

Please do not include her Q in the changes.

SvelterGraph10/23/2019, 12:40:51 AM4 votes

I personally see why you would want to add these changes , I personally think it would be great for most the champions on this list. Me being a gp one trick in platinum 2 played over 300 games in ranked this season over my 3 accounts I would not want to see these changes go through. I would be perfectly fine with all the other champs getting this change , and maybe leave behind the three champs that are in BOLD I understand you want to shake things up but , you are taking away the many hours iv'e played on my champion just because you can. I would have to re learn the ranges and in doing so my platinum level champion drops to maybe a platinum 4 level or lower. I am personally fine with more Gangplank skins but less changes to my champions play would be appreciated . Hopefully someone with some power actually sees my comment , as I dont play PBE very often and when I do its just so see new skins and play one game to get my 3000 rp i am not on PBE more than others.

JWizZzard10/23/2019, 6:22:04 AM3 votes

Make this a toggle option. I strategically place something out of range so I only HAVE to walk that close to it!

TyRamos11/8/2019, 3:44:10 PM3 votes

Make it a toggle

Lord Raphel10/22/2019, 6:24:51 PM3 votes

I play with the following champions:

Heimerdinger E e RE Miss Fortune E Ziggs E SYNDRA Q

And I stay worried about these changes. I will test on PBE but I think it will greatly affect the gameplay of the MF.

Dizerel11/1/2019, 11:22:35 PM2 votes

This will kill any gangplank main

I know because im a gangplank main

Im fine with you adding this but can you at the very least have it be a toggle option? that way newer players can have the new version, but people used to the old version can keep it that way?

Toe Socks11/3/2019, 1:01:29 AM2 votes

Please just make this an option like quick cast, I've wanted this for annie r for years

llllllllllI10/22/2019, 9:19:43 PM1 votes

uhhh, toggle, hello? also, dead heroes of the storm has had champion specific hotkey settings like indicators/smart cast for each ability saved for years now. why can't we? doesn't make sense to spend 5 minutes changing it ingame every game for each of the 100+ champions