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Quick Gameplay Thoughts: July 11

RiotMeddler··1 votes·104,254 views

Hi folks,

Usual Disclaimers

These posts will often contain talk about future work we're doing, or planning to do, that isn't yet guaranteed to ship. The nature of the work could change or, depending on what we discover, projects mentioned may get put delayed or even stopped. If you'd like to see a Tweet whenever a new one of these posts goes up: https://twitter.com/RiotMeddler


Gold funneling

We're aiming to have a nerf to mid/jungle gold funneling in 8.14. It's an issue we've been looking at for a little while now, given it creates lanes without much interaction and putting two income streams on one champion produces a range of balance issues. We haven't been able to find a fix that's low enough on collateral damage to regular jungle play, low enough on disruption for a regular patch and that meets our design values, especially on things like intuitiveness and clarity.

We're at the point though where we don't think we should let the issue persist while we continue to work on those constraints. We'll be going with a temporary solution as a result that's pretty ugly on the intuitiveness/clarity side, with the intention of replacing it come preseason when it's more appropriate to make larger changes. That temporary solution is heavily reduced gold from lane minions if you have a T1 or T2 jungle item and have the most gold on your team.

We're targeting gold on the champ being funneled to here because that's where the biggest discrepancy lies, with that champ having around 50% more gold at the 15 minute mark than the opposing mid laner. We also took a look at solutions that involved hitting XP instead, difference there's much smaller most of the time though (~10%). We considered nerfs to the support items too, to hit the other side of the equation, but conclusion was that wouldn't actually address the issue, given how impactful the gold lead on the champ funneled to would still be regardless. A penalty to lane gold when ahead by contrast is, despite being rather ugly and heavy handed, targeted directly at both funneling and the resource (gold) that's causing the problems. From internal testing so far affect on junglers who aren't funneling's been very small to non existent.


Nerfing Conqueror

We're planning on nerfing Conqueror somewhat. That probably happens in 8.15, though there's a slim change it slips into 8.14 still depending on how work this week goes. Details at time of writing still to be determined. One of our primary goals though is to get tanks back into a more appropriate spot, with things having swung too hard against them. Doing so initially by looking at systemic things like Conqueror that affect all of them, before getting into individual champion changes.


Runes selection UI

Not sure yet exactly when, but at some point after the cursor changes are out we'll be doing some work on the runes selection UI. At a minimum that will involve looking at which rune gets replaced when you're trying to change your secondaries. Might also do some work on things like color coding of rune trees, not sure yet. Possible it takes a while to happen, given we've got a few other projects also on the team doing that stuff, definitely planning to do so though.


Non LoL: Game Design Links

For anyone interested in discussions around game design and development processes the site below's worth a read. Covers some useful topics in pretty clear and concise way. Linked pages are the ones that particularly leapt out to me, many of the other sections are good too though:

Iterative approach: https://learn.canvas.net/courses/3/pages/level-4-dot-0-science-of-design?module_item_id=44537

Prototyping: https://learn.canvas.net/courses/3/pages/level-5-dot-1-prototyping?module_item_id=44546

Decision Making: https://learn.canvas.net/courses/3/pages/level-6-dot-1-tips-on-decision-making

Different kinds of fun: https://learn.canvas.net/courses/3/pages/level-7-dot-0-kinds-of-fun?module_item_id=44563

Different types of player: https://learn.canvas.net/courses/3/pages/level-7-dot-3-player-types?module_item_id=44566

http://ddragon.leagueoflegends.com/cdn/6.24.1/img/champion/Ziggs.png

415 Comments

Frozen Diva13 votes

Liss OTP here and I love the new passive and the change to her E.

But I do feel like her early game and her laning phase (especially in mid lane) is weak. You rely heavily on your opponents mistakes. Of course there has to be a downside if you have amazing teamfight capabilities like this with her new passive.

But I feel like she needs a bit more dmg in the early game to get to the point where she can actually kill a target in the backline to trigger the passive as the game goes on. Maybe you can move some dmg from E to her W or add a little more base dmg to her Q? Nothing too big.

Just curious to know what you think about her early game/solo performance.

[slayer-jinx-wink]

Queš10 votes

So are u going to nerf true damage part conversion of conqueror?Would u consider to compensate it somewhat with a bit higher bonus ad at this point ?

RiotMeddler8 votes

We've actually been looking more at hitting the AD in the last couple of days. Perspective there is looking at what sort of trade off in regular damage output you should expect to make to get strength against tankier targets, with Conqeuror being too good at both things right now.

Queš2 votes

Ohh u made it sound so that true damage conversion gets nerfed.I would prefer bonus ad nerf gladly.

RiotMeddler10 votes

Yeah, I was expecting we'd probably go for the true damage when I wrote this post earlier in the week. Discussion's shifted since then though. At time of writing we didn't have anything in testing and 8.14 looked unlikely, at this point it'll probably be an AD nerf in 8.14 though.

pepetecabalga7 votes

You better nerf the conversion if you want tanks to be in a better place

Auve10 votes

How will this affect The Twisted Treeline given that "funneling" is an established part of support meta?

RiotMeddler7 votes

I'm 99% certain this change is only on the SR versions of those items. Will double check to make sure that's the case though. Whether or not it's the correct change for TT wouldn't want to push it there so abruptly without a better understanding of its impact.

Auve11 votes

I'd love to get together with someone from Riot and talk about potential TT changes. I've had some ideas for a while for low resource changes to the map that got some support on r/leagueoflegends and within our discord communities.

Thanks for the clarification, Meddler.

Leaves5 votes

Please allow it to go through to Twisted Treeline, high elo on that map has been burdened with "gold funneling" for several seasons now.

Αrti3 votes

Is there a way you could limit the reduced gold to 10-15 minutes so only the lane phase gets adjusted. Controlling minion waves and split pushing can be a verry important source of income as a jungler later in the game and after lane phase funneling wont be as effective anyway. This way if you get fed as a jungler you dont get punished for being ahead.

PapaGreg217 votes

For tank jungle mains, everything has been awful since the scuttle meta began. Even if you succeed early on (which is rare) you aren't alive long enough to be a front line for your team because damage across the board is outperforming defense across the board. You would think now that ADC's are weaker, it would be the perfect time for tanks to be meta, but it's just the opposite, meaning they are probably in a worse spot than everyone realized. Am I alone in feeling this way?

pepetecabalga5 votes

Everyone complained about tanks last season, they nerfed them to the ground.

MastermindMarkus5 votes

Does this mean the nerfs on e.g. Taric E or Nunu W will be reverted?

RiotMeddler9 votes

Taric we felt should be nerfed anyway.

Nunu's got an update fairly soon that doesn't include AP buffing so we were comfortable taking that away regardless.

JonnyBoyy1 votes

what? so is VGU NUNU AD??

I need answers lol

RiotMeddler10 votes

No, but VGU Nunu doesn't have an ability that gives a % AP amp to an ally.

InstaPoppy6 votes

Will he remain a supportive type of jungler similar to ivern?

SnugglePuggle945 votes

I'm sure you've seen all the discontentment on the boards recently. And that is surely well founded because of what you and Ghostcrawler have done. We still don't have ANY feedback from you or him on any of this. Do you feel we are wrong about this? Can we get any insight?

Preferably, most people want this season to be reverted because of all the damage you all have done. Is there any possibility that can be done?

Please talk to us about this. Thank you.

pepetecabalga1 votes

Angry people from plat an below WONT dictate the balance of a game. That would be stupid and unproffesional.

SnugglePuggle945 votes

I'm talking about the state of the game. High elo players are crying out because of it. Popular streamers are leaving.

It's not just lower elos that are talking about this. When it is talked about every day and just about most of all the board posts are asking for changes and expressing their discontentment, then something is definitely wrong and Riot needs to change.

Reaganomics5 votes

^ This. I have been playing since Kog'maw was released and as much as I LOVE this game I just can't find that much enjoyment in it at the moment. It's getting less & less enjoyable to load up and play. Hell I don't think I've played a serious game since early June or late May and I'm the type of player who used to play 6-10 Ranked games A DAY and would go for the Gold or better every season to get the exclusive skin, now I just really don't care. And yes you can dismiss me as a scrub for being happy with Gold or Plat, but the majority of the player base is Plat and lower. Ignoring Plat and lower players is actually a fairly risky/dangerous gambit on Riot's part (Though I doubt that is what they are actually doing).

To be honest it all started with the Rune changes for me, the lack of anything significant as a refund (the Blue Essence was nice but did not make up for the YEARS of grinding to get 20 full pages and didn't matter much to those of us who had all the champs at the time) and the feeling that I actually had less options than I did previously under the old Runes/Mastery system. It just didn't FEEL good to me and I know at least 3 players who stopped playing the game with the changes. I also simply feel we have seen too many changes in too short a time frame. Many that seem to have fallen flat or simply failed, most notably for me with the champ re-works.

Psst, it's okay to let a champ be niche (Galio & Irelia & Aatrox ) if that champ has a dedicated group of players who really love them. One of my friends stopped playing because he loved Galio, and the new Galio simply WASN'T Galio anymore. Also, poor gbay99.

I can tell you this much, and this is anecdotal, but I have at least 8 friends (including the previously mentioned 4) that have stopped playing over the past two years due to the constant changes and state of the game. This pattern will continue. We've seen this with other games and I'd prefer to not see it with a game I have literally invested about 90 days of my life into (O God, that stat is so sad).

Just my two cents.

[sg-soraka]

JimmyRevSullivan5 votes

Hey Meddler

Since DrMundo is a pretty strong pick right now even after his recent nerf on E i think you guys are looking into more changes in order to balance him so i have a sugestion: How about add scalings into his kit and reduce his base dmg? I mean,Mundo builds full tank because is the best option since he can't really use an offensive item like his juggernaut brothers like Darius so he ends in a pretty tough spot in terms of itemization because his only scaling is laughable and it's not going to be relevant unless you somehow manage to get like 1000AP. My idea is basically make Mundo a proper juggernaut and make him build atleast one offensive option in order to keep his dmg relevant instead of smacking people to death with base dmg while also being unkilliable because you build full tank. I suggest ap scalings in order to make Mundo more unique,you know? We have a lot of ad juggernauts but only Mordekaiser is an proper ap juggernaut so i think Mundo can join him and build things like Liandry(i'm pretty sure liandry was one of his recommended itens for a while :P ) or any other Ap + Health item.

English is not my main language but i hope you can understand what i'm trying to say ^^

big boi edri5 votes

Thought on the MonkeyKing nerfs and the intentions there? The base E damage seems to only target his early game where he is already weak. With keeping the same AD ratios on his Q/E, he'll still be able to 1 shot just as quickly around 2 items. Wukong doesn't play as a lane bully in most matchups, so I'm curious why the decision to nerf him there as opposed to possibly landing him in the middle ground on his prior Q buff? 30% rather than 50% scaling I mean.

Just curious as a Wukong main, I don't want to see him over nerfed if the proposed changes aren't effective.

atlıkarınca4 votes

How are the studies about Lissandra going?

RiotMeddler8 votes

Testing on the new passive is going well. Hoping it'll be solid enough to commit to within a week or two. After that though, since it's a passive that needs some new art and audio, will still be a while until it's ready. Not sure how long yet, will do that assessment once the gameplay's locked down.

M00ndanc34 votes

How does the lissandra passive work with things like jhins e passive or on champs that are super huge like chogath. The way its worded, it sounds like jhins e with a mini trundle pillar in the middle, but since it says its a statue of the champ, what happens if the champs model is larger than the aoe?

Galiö4 votes

General questions I guess.

Why was Zoe planned to have a huge nerf and then given a mediocre nerf on pbe?

Why is it ok to 'funnel' gold in the bot lane for seasons but not mid lane?

Is it possible to give Galio back his on being hit heal instead of DR on his W? ;)

pda89813 votes

Why is it ok to 'funnel' gold in the bot lane for seasons but not mid lane?

Because funneling strat on midlane is taking 2 gold sources and pour it into 1 man. On botlane you have the same champion setup - but 1 gold source (excluding support items in both cases).

kihashi4 votes

Any idea if this "funneling" change will also apply to Twisted Treeline?

7deadLeeSlnz4 votes

Context for Corki changes on the PBE? And do you have any plans for Galio?

Wobly3 votes

Any insight on Nasus changes on PBE?

RiotMeddler19 votes

We're looking at a few different directions on Nasus. I think the one likely to ship is a buff to his passive Lifesteal early game, help him get through laning phase a bit better.

Glory to God48 votes

Uhh doesn't that leave him with even fewer weaknesses?

Palaven8 votes

The biggest weakness Nasus has is that he is easily kited in teamfights. This isn't changing.

ChickenWrap9 votes

But doesn't Nasus have a spell that literally prevents you from kiting him?

WindLord707016 votes

{quoted}

We're looking at a few different directions on Nasus. I think the one likely to ship is a buff to his passive Lifesteal early game, help him get through laning phase a bit better.

That kind of change would make nasus an absolute nightmare for non meta top laners to deal with. He already has a ridiculous amount of sustain in lane. Have you considered just nerfing some of the meta top laners that do to much damage? Maybe make top lane a more inclusive lane again?

pepetecabalga10 votes

I agree. His main problem is the meta. Building tanky doesnt help as much lane against anyone with conqueror.

Noekepoek3 votes

Honestly! As a bruiser player I feel so disregarded, until conqueror, bruisers were irrelevant. You guys even forgot to make a keystone for them. Now tanks have been in a bad spot for Al couple patches, and immediately you start talking about getting them back into tot meta. How is tanks being bad for 3 patches a problem, while bruisers are disregarded for half a season?

Lesurous3 votes

I think it's because of the role tanks play in a team comp, i.e. frontlining for the backline. It's one of the reasons traditional ADC's have been outclassed by Mages in the bot lane, since things like Brand/Vlad/Swain aren't too bothered by this (Brand just needs to get one combo off or at the very least his R and there's his teamfight contribution, Vlad has his sustain/pool, and Swain has his ult+passive), and when teamfights that the ADC is a part of there's just nothing stopping the Talon/Zed/Vlad/HEIMERDINGER/etc. from obliterating them, since they'd also obliterate the bruisers.

WhiteFlame443 votes

Funnelling is an unhealthy mechanic huh? Have you heard of bot lane where the support already funnels gold into the adc?

Thespaceo3 votes

Are there any specifics on the cursor updates? As a person playing on a 4k screen, I've had trouble seeing my cursor during fights, and I've read many other comments on the board complaining about this. I think that most people would be happy with a basic cursor scaling option in the settings, which hopefully shouldn't be too difficult. Also, if this type of change is not being considered, I would consider the fact that players are using 3rd party software like yolomouse to edit their cursor size, and not implementing a change would encourage people to use this software because there is no official support for the issue. While I don't use this software because it technically goes against the TOS, I think that many other players don't feel this restriction because Riot has not put in a cursor update.

Bern2 votes

Glad you're addressing funneling seriously and quickly, even if it's a little heavy-handed.

Any concerns about this gimping the carrying ability of soloq junglers who get ahead through early kills, though? I can imagine this hurting some of their more extreme success cases (especially those who would splitpush after getting fed). I assume you think it's worth the tradeoff, since the amount of cases affected is low?

RiotMeddler4 votes

There might be a bit of pain on snowballing junglers there if they're taxing lanes heavily and/or split pushing. The penalty going away at T3 jungle items though should catch most of the cases of that happening in regular (non funneling) play.

DorkunedAuras7 votes

Meddler, one thing I think you're not considering is that not all junglers want a T3 jungle item. For example, when I play Kha'Zix, I start with item 1039 and NEVER upgrade it. I get a item 3077 and rush a item 3147. From there, I get more lethality. I eventually sell the Talisman. As such, this change will be directly penalizing me if I snowball for the entire game until end build when I sell my talisman.

This change will have extremely detrimental effects on anyone who opts not to finish their jungle item and forces them to.

Pendergast8912 votes

to clarify with the lane minion gold nerf, a champion has to have a jg item AND have the most gold on the team? not just one or the other right?

RiotMeddler5 votes

Correct. Also only applies to T1 and T2 jungle items.

ModThe Djinn8 votes

{quoted}

Correct. Also only applies to T1 and T2 jungle items.

Any chance of getting some sort of easy indicator of when this effect is/isn't in effect? A color change to the gold pop-up, a different sound, a debuff icon, or something? Because it IS an unclear mechanic, and I could easily see a fed jungler accidentally costing his team gold when wave-clearing because he doesn't realize this effect exists.

waiting for WoW1 votes

Has Riot considered any other way to buff Liandry's Torment besides the current one on the PBE? Like reducing the cost by 100 gold so it can at least match the price of Morellonomicon and be more competitive for that item slot?

RiotMeddler4 votes

We're looking at buffing non CC amped DoT damage on it because of how much at present the CC amp's required to get good use from the item. Don't want to remove the combo entirely, but would like to be able to make it more of an optional thing, than something that binds as hard to either specific kits and/or buying Rylai's.

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