Quick Gameplay Thoughts: January 24

RiotMeddler·1/24/2018, 4:39:36 PM·1 votes·58,899 views

Hey all,


Usual Disclaimers

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Thoughts on top lane

As mentioned last week some thoughts on top lane today. Longer post than usual, ended up being a lot of stuff to touch on that’s all pretty interlinked.


Context: Laning

First off some thoughts on what laning in LoL should be like in general, and then on top specifically.

Laning in general:

  • A period of small scale PVP, where it’s your skill against one or two opponents most of the time. Tests different skills from team fighting in particular.

  • Should last for a fair duration and success during lane should set you up with a meaningful advantage post laning phase. If you win hard enough, and translate that lead into a wider advantage for your team, that could be very influential in deciding the game outcome.

  • Your choice of champ relative to your opponents should matter, but shouldn’t decide the lane (strength in counter-picking, but not hard counters).

  • Success should come from both how you play the lane (farming, zoning, trading etc) and how you contribute strategically during the laning period (roaming, TPing, objectives etc).

  • Lanes should have frequent interaction between champions, not just passive farming.

Top Lane:

  • Contributes less to strategic play than mid (more isolated), so should test and reward play in lane more on average (some exceptions, especially from champs with global mobility on their kits).

  • Should be able to support a wide variety of champion types, in particular those not well suited to solo laning elsewhere. Ideally all champs should have a home in lane somewhere, though that’s been a challenge for us for a long time with some champs who’ve only really existed in the jungle.

  • Needs to be able to cope with jungle/roam pressure from being a long lane with only one champion per side providing vision.


Context: Top at different MMRs

One other thing worth talking about with top lane is how it changes significantly at different MMR levels. Looking at popularity for example top Lane’s the middle position in terms of popularity at almost all MMR bands, noticeably below mid and bot, but significantly above jungle and support. That trend changes at really high MMRs (top 1% or so), with mid and jungle then the two popular roles, with bot in the middle and both top and support a bit below it.

https://imgur.com/a/TupSq

We believe there are a few factors that contribute to that difference in popularity by MMR. Some of it’s the effectiveness of other roles being more appreciated at higher MMRs (e.g. jungle/support perception). Some of it though is also that top laner impact on game outcome does decrease somewhat with higher MMR statistically (more thoughts on that in a section below). What the top lane experience is like also varies (e.g. which champs you commonly play against changes significantly looking at Diamond versus Silver for example, as does ability to take Ignite versus having to take TP).


Single target spell agro

As per the laning section above we believe a variety of types of champion should be viable in each position ideally. One problem that we’ve seen though is that some champions dominate lanes with click to hit spells that lack enough counterplay (e.g. Pantheon Q). Particularly as melee that means you end up either sustaining through their hits or just get bullied out of lane. Some matchups can be too dependent on which champions got picked and not enough on how you play the lane. We’ve got a change in 8.2 where single target non skillshot damage spells draw minion agro as a result. Champs we think will be noticeably affected in their ability to spam harass who regularly play top include Kayle, Vlad, Teemo, Pantheon, Malphite. Some others could be affected as well, though we think the likely impact’s lower (e.g. Akali). It’s possible some of those champs end up too weak, or still too dominant despite that change. Will likely need some follow up work in 8.4 as a result, particularly if any champs end up lacking a way to be effective in lane at all. If for example Panth has to time his Q harass around gaps in minions and/or eat more minion harass can he be effective enough at all? Is he fine after a bit of adaptation?


Runes and Top Lane

Top’s also been particularly affected by some of the new Runes.

First up, there are some gaps in the current rune system. As we’ve mentioned we’re working on a new keystone intended to offer sustained damage output to champs who are after both some offensive and some defensive power. Likely that appeals to some, but not all, of the champs who used to take Fervor. Current expectation is that that will go in the Resolve tree. That’s both to make Resolve more attractive to some champs and because a number of the new keystone’s potential users don’t want Attack Speed that much (hence they’re not using Press the Attack like Shyvana for example). That lack of interest in so much Attack Speed is something we’ll also be looking, particularly the question of whether precision (or even all trees) should split their stats like Resolve currently does. That would open up the Precision keystones to quite a few champs if so, though does have some other costs (diluting clear distinctions in playstyle between the trees in particular). More on that possible split either later this week or next week.

Kleptomancy’s also too good on its best users, most of whom tend to play in top lane. Combination of other melee targets to proc it on and desire for sustain means that for a lot of champs in top it’s their most powerful keystone. It’s also an issue on some champs elsewhere (Ezreal in particular). We’re changing it so it gets procced less often if you’ve recently procced it as a result, toning down the difference between those that can really maximize it and other users who aren’t out of line. Worth noting that while GP does make good use of it he’s also about as strong with Grasp, so possible he may still be a balance issue after this change.

Finally, Aftershock’s both too narrow (limited range of users) and too strong on many of its current users (tanks, a few of whom are pretty impactful top). We’re changing it so it deals less damage, especially early, gives flat mitigation instead of flat + % and has some AD/AP scaling. First goal there is to make it weaker on some of its current best users (e.g. Maokai or Leona), in terms of their damage output early in particular. Second is to allow champs who build some offensive stats instead of full defenses to get more benefit from it later in the game (e.g. some fighters with CC who really want defense at the start of a fight but aren’t building full tank). Exact numbers on it are a risk point that may need tuning, amount of flat Armor/MR early in particular. Damage is down significantly, need to ensure that defense doesn’t end up more than offsetting that power loss though.


Champ Balance of common top laners

Champ balance is also worth talking about of course, though it’s been less of our focus in top while we’ve been working on the wider systemic stuff above. We did a bit of work on some champs in 7.24b last year, nerfing Jayce and Teemo, while buffing Tiamat, Aatrox, Kled and Renekton. Rationale there was that those were the champs most in need at the time. We saw noticeable improvements to those buffed, Jayce and Teemo didn’t get affected that much however. We’ve since followed that with nerfs to Kayle, Ornn and Heimer.

Looking forwards, we’ll almost certainly need to do some follow up on individual champs after we’ve seen exactly what impact the agro and Rune changes have. We’ll also be buffing Trynd in 8.3. Gnar need some work soon too, in particular to give him more exploitable weaknesses. Ornn by contrast is a trickier case. He’s on our minds, given his dominance in high MMR and pro play, but it’s looking like he’ll be a Ryze like problem in some respects, with poor performance at almost all skill levels while dominating high skill play. We’re looking for changes that bring his power down there more than elsewhere as a result.


Top Lane Summary

So, to try and sum a bunch of things up, we believe top lane needs some improvements at both the tactical and the strategic level. Tactically some things are distorting the lane and need to be addressed (a range of Runes, some individual champions, ranged harass that doesn’t draw agro). Ability to be aggressive on some champs, and get damage to stick to others, may also need further work too. At a strategic level top’s impact on the game at really high MMRs is likely too low. Addressing that likely involves increasing the benefit of winning top lane and looking at how dependent on TP top lane is.


Thoughts on pro play

Finally, for something not top lane specific, wanted to share some observations about pro play. As of this weekend just been we’ve now seen play kick off in all major regions for the first time since pre-season. Inclination so far is that there are a few wider issues we should be looking at:

  • Seeing teams have some difficulty ending games. Wave clear’s high, making it hard to push, while the value of late game objectives (Baron and Elder Dragon) may not be rewarding teams with full map control enough. Disengage champs are also common, impactful picks, and engaging enough to get multiple kills can be difficult.

  • Inspiration’s looking too strong. Gets used a lot both as primary and secondary choice, with Slightly Magical Footwear and Perfect Timing the consistent elements. We’d been planning to chip some power off the boots already, will be looking at Stopwatch this week too.

  • Bot lane sustain is too high, resulting in low reward for putting damage on your opponents and therefore a low interaction lane. The nerf in 8.2 to Targon’s healing (50% if owner is ranged) potentially addresses enough that already, possible more might be needed however.

http://ddragon.leagueoflegends.com/cdn/6.24.1/img/champion/Ziggs.png

328 Comments

Mordepool1/24/2018, 4:57:34 PM44 votes

Perhaps having every Marksmen have the ability to waveclear after picking up shiv is a bad thing. What's the point of giving Marksmen inherent weaknesses if they can just buy an item to completely negate that weakness

Looking at other classes and they don't have that option. Juggernauts are still weak to kiting after buying a Deadman plate. For example

DefiBRO1/24/2018, 5:05:10 PM25 votes

Please fix gray health of the enemy tahm kench. I am colorblind and after last health bar update i can't differentiate gray health from regular even in colorblind mod.

Nymzo1/24/2018, 8:45:53 PM20 votes
SoundChaosDebug1/24/2018, 4:42:56 PM20 votes

Just change targons to melee only already, stop fucking around.

Sahn Uzal1/24/2018, 5:07:22 PM15 votes

About Ornn, is there any chance you'll revisit him? I've seen quite a lot of Dislike for the change to his W both here and on Reddit. Primarily the fact that removing his Unstoppable lowered his skill ceiling

Warden Karma1/24/2018, 4:40:59 PM13 votes

Hey Meddler,

In the light of the upcoming update for Karma, could you share some information as to how big her update will be?

Will it be like Xins update or smaller? Also any thoughts on which abilities you are looking in? What are the aims of the changes (more mage/support direction/skillexpression/interaction/identity)?

Thank you for your time :)

Wukong Airlines1/24/2018, 8:37:25 PM11 votes

@Meddler, Any thoughts on MonkeyKing ?

Everything has been changing since the last 4 years except him.

Why not at least give him the Tryndamere and MasterYi treatment?

stokastic1/24/2018, 4:54:07 PM10 votes

Do you guys have any plans on revisiting the change made to Ornn's W (removing unstoppable). It was one of the only expressions of mechanical skill in his kit and it's a shame to see it go. I would have preferred to see increased cooldown/mana cost at lower ranks, and maybe even lowered damage.

I loved playing Ornn while it lasted, but he just doesn't seem fun without unstoppable.

InTheory1/24/2018, 5:25:42 PM10 votes

Hey Meddler, are there any Rioters that work on Coop vs AI modes and AI itself? If no - when can we roughly expect someone to take some time and look into some bad bugs in the game mode?

Currently there's a really annoying bug that happens about every 3rd game and breaks at least one AI for the rest of the game. I tried to investigate that and made this post in the report-a-bug-section because the in-client bug-report doesn't really fit the thematic (It only asks for champion bugs).

It'd be really awesome if you could bring this to the attention of a colleague that has the experience with Riot's AIs.

Thanks for your help.

ModKnightsKemplar1/24/2018, 4:47:48 PM9 votes

Great thoughts. I really appreciate it when you give detailed stats on differences between high and low elo play; it's somewhat possible for us to get that data (depending on what, exactly, you're looking at), but I think yours is more accurate.

That distinction is under-appreciated on the Boards, imo. One of the best things about this game is the amount of thought that you all put into balancing for many skills levels. Keep that up!

IxtaliKing1/24/2018, 5:34:37 PM7 votes

Hey Meddler, any updates on the Karma situation?

ZaNJeTsU1/24/2018, 5:50:01 PM7 votes

and please look at these things that balance team can solve problems by doing it

  • You either raise the price of tanks and ADCs & Assassins items so that they don't get item advantage on bruisers, or you reduce bruisers items price

  • As ADCs can stack item 3087 item 3094 , let bruisers stack item 3156 item 3053

  • let item 3153 do more % health dmg if the user is a melee champ, so that bruisers can buy it again and it won't affect ADCs

  • let item 3071 reduce more armor if the user is melee champ

  • fix life steal items, there are 5 lifesteal items and bruisers buy health instead, didn't you feel that they are currently useless?, do something and make them useful as they were in season 3

  • same as you made non mana champs benefits from runes that related to mana champs, make item 3057 and its upgrade give something like additional health if the user has no mana, so that all bruisers can benefits from it and from its upgrades

XtraCheeky1/25/2018, 1:43:56 AM5 votes

Most of my friends who played top are either giving up the role or the game as its no longer fun as all you ever see top lane are autofilled tanks. they out damage sustain and teamfight most other top laners and you basically cant play badly on them. More recently Ive seen people just playing lulu, janna and even rakan as its just such an un impactful role that its just being used by supports as they can afk farm against tanks and be as usual. As a fighter the items are more expensive then tank items and you get less for them. Youll probably look at this post and think "oh great one of these people" but someones got to say something otherwise we just get forgotten about and lied to. No sarcasm and troll intended just what ive experienced.

MetaKaizer1/24/2018, 5:15:26 PM4 votes

Thoughts on Mordekaiser? Are u planning on making any "in the meantime" changes before a full VGU or will u leave him at the current state until an eventual VGU arrives for him?

AgeOfTheMage1/24/2018, 5:35:07 PM4 votes

i'm just glad that pantheon's Q now draws aggro, fighting him as fiora was a living hell D:

Fablespeaker1/24/2018, 9:24:09 PM4 votes

This post is beauty to my eyes but keep in mind that I am a top laner. Riot addressed many of the issues that plague Top Lane currently such as a lack of significant impact from winning lane and the lack of a proper bruiser keystone and they also address an issue that's been in Top Lane/League in a long time which is champions who use single target abilities to harass without punishment. I'm sure that the changes they plan to make top are sure to affect other lanes and champions heavily though ( Heard Draven mains want to use the bruiser keystone and the single impact abilitiy change could really hurt Kassadin's laning ). Great job on the transparency Riot!

rhintheminstrel1/24/2018, 4:48:43 PM4 votes

Any plan/tests on Statik Shiv? probably think this item's passive is one of the reasons why hypercarries get so much burst just from their autos.

Zacaroni Salad1/24/2018, 5:29:44 PM4 votes

What is the reason for not re-adding Fervor as a smaller rune or a keystone? Wouldn't it be a simple fix to the underperforming fighters that used to take it?

DCYOUNG8881/24/2018, 4:50:32 PM3 votes

Will there be any bugs to Thresh Thresh this patch since relic shield healing got nerfed for him?item 3302

Ralanr1/24/2018, 5:09:02 PM3 votes

Hi Meddler.

Question: do you think a major problem with tanks is that their abilities are generally too reliable to fail?

AFilthyCaitMain1/24/2018, 5:36:22 PM3 votes

Hey Meddler, what happened to the cait buffs? Did she end up not needing them?

Wises1/24/2018, 7:43:50 PM3 votes

I hope you don't forget Renekton, that last buff to his base damage felt really lackluster. Not being able to succesfully bully scaling champs like Nasus and Camille hard enough early game feels really bad. Their good poke and sustain seems to put them at the same "powelevel" as Renekton early game while they still scale really well.
[zombie-nunu-tears]

ßiggie Cheese1/24/2018, 4:49:46 PM2 votes

Good morning Meddler,

Thoughts on Hecarim and being on the weaker side?

Are Volibear changes coming this PBE cycle?

Any new direction for Minion Dematerializer rune?

TomiMan71/24/2018, 4:42:16 PM2 votes

Hey,

What are your thoughts on Brand ATM?

Also when we will see some context on the AP item reworks? When will those changes hit PBE/Live servers?