Boards›Dev Corner

Quick Gameplay Thoughts: May 24

RiotMeddler·5/24/2019, 3:02:44 PM·1 votes·139,973 views

Hi folks,

Usual Disclaimers

These posts will often contain talk about future work we're doing, or planning to do, that isn't yet guaranteed to ship. The nature of the work could change or, depending on what we discover, projects mentioned may get delayed or even stopped. If you'd like to see a Tweet whenever a new one of these posts goes up:

State of work on a few champs

Not much new that's ready to talk about this week. Going to do some quick run throughs on current plans for a few small champ updates as a result.

Teemo

Teemo changes have been on the PBE for a while now and we've also recently got some on site user lab testing done on them. Seeing some positive sentiment and some concerns. Plan is to try another iteration as a result, with a particular focus on improving the E, then reassess overall state of the project.

Aatrox

Aatrox changes have been live for a bit now. So far we're still cautiously optimistic about them, with the revive no longer being reliably available showing particular promise. Looks a little strong in high MMR play, not planning on nerfs in 9.11 at least though. Very interested to see if changes have addressed some of what made him so pick/ban in pro, even when weak elsewhere, and should see pro play on them shortly.

Yuumi

We're starting to see Yuumi succeed quite well for people who've played her a lot. Player sentiment's also shifted from a clear consensus she's weak (pre hotfix) to a wide range of opinions from too weak to balanced to too strong. Holding off on any changes beyond some low power impacting useability stuff and bug fixes in 9.11 as a result. Trying to be cautious about not buffing needlessly if we can help it, given that would force future nerfs.

Diana

As with Teemo we've had some Diana changes on the PBE for a bit. Feedback on those has generally been on the more negative side. We do think they accomplish some of our goals with the project, but aren't confident about the overall package landing in a good spot. Plan is to cut a lot of the changes as a result. Likely means we ship some small adjustments now and then consider Diana for further work sometime a bit later in the year.

https://twitter.com/RiotMeddler

229 Comments

Hotarµ5/24/2019, 3:08:43 PM50 votes

Semi-unrelated, but:

Any chance you guys will ever acknowledge Shen's bugged interaction with Hail of Blades? He legitimately hasn't been able to use the rune since 9.1, as his Q is being classified as an auto-reset and takes priority over the rune as a whole.

I've filed multiple support tickets, made some Boards/Reddit posts, and even tweeted at a few Rioters, yet it's been left unfixed for a while and it's very discouraging. Shen is a champion who needs all the help he can get in lane and fixing this could open up new playstyles or builds.

At the very least, it would make Shen more fun to play and I feel that's something he desperately needs right now.

Zoli Ben5/24/2019, 3:06:57 PM16 votes

Hi Meddler! I know it is not exactly your field, but so many people are curious about the VGU vote results. Is there any ETA for that? MSI is over.

Galactic Mayhem5/24/2019, 3:30:13 PM13 votes

Anything regarding akali? She just keeps getting nerfed cause of pro play and you guys don't even bother justifying it anymore

Gankr5/24/2019, 6:48:20 PM12 votes

The Zac ult revert is not actually a revert, but no Rioter has responded to the issues Zac players have with it. Most of us favor a revert, but the ult currently on PBE is different than his original one. The knockback on his PBE ult is next to nothing, while his old knockback used to be significant. Utilizing the knockback was what separated the good Zacs from the bad ones. Back when he was reworked, the reasoning behind changing it was because it was a "chaotic Wukong ultimate". What is currently on the PBE is basically the same thing as Wukong ult, while his old ult was very different. The original ult was all about positioning it correctly and timing bounces to knock the right people in the correct directions. For some reason, those reverting Zac have decided to take that away from him. Also, his PBE ultimate uses the same blob spawning rules as his Scoop one. It is supposed to be one blob for each bounces on a champion, but now it is blobs equal to the amount of champions hit with the first bounce. The blobs also are supposed to spawn in between him and the champion hit when ulting, which doesn't happen. The worst part is we don't even know if it is on purpose or a bug that hasn't been fixed because we have had zero feedback. Also, he is never going to be balanced or fun to play with his current Q because it is such a powerful ability that the rest of his kit had to be nerfed. It's a cool ability, but it doesn't fit Zac's playstyle at all. His reworked Q and ult both destroyed what Zac was as a champ. He was all about moving around the teamfight, picking up blobs and throwing out low cooldown abilities. Now he doesn't have the freedom to move around because his Q is so clunky. It would be like giving Singed new Zac Q. Would it be a good ability and a buff to the champion? Of course. Would it destroy what the champion is all about? Absolutely. The ability does not belong on Zac and older Zac players will not be satisfied with it being a part of his kit.

Abyz5/24/2019, 3:18:06 PM10 votes

Hello,

I have concerns about the Akali nerf (yet again ...). Why do you nerf her bruiser AD build in a way that encourages her to go towards item like Titanic Hydra (nerding the AD ratio) ? I currently play Akali with Ravenous Hydra rush, Tri Force, Death's dance as core and it works wonder, but to me these nerfs mean :" We want to jill your champion and make it build tank". Any context ?

Ashes of Dreams5/24/2019, 7:51:21 PM10 votes

Please comment on Akali. It seems that other champions are just getting much more though when it comes to balancing between competitive and normal play. Aatrox was adjusted, Urgot was adjusted, but Akali is slated for a large nerf to her passive despite sitting on a 45% winrate in regular play. It is disheartening.

Qiyana is SO HOT5/24/2019, 5:32:54 PM8 votes

Meddler any chance you can go over the Akali nerf and explain why shes getting such a heavy handed nerf out of nowhere? Also is it on the radar for her to get an Aatrox level mini rework? Its obvious at this point she has the same problems he had when it comes to pro play and solo Q.

Red Fr0st5/24/2019, 3:08:08 PM6 votes

What about Zac? no tweaks, no comments , nothing after appearance on PBE

Variiz5/24/2019, 6:42:59 PM6 votes

Hi Meddler, can we get the context on the Akali nerfs? Any chance she’ll get the an Aatrox/Urgot style mini rework to make her less oppressive in pro play and more consistent in soloq?

Velasan5/24/2019, 7:06:50 PM5 votes

I have come here today once again to talk about Swain.

I recall that recently when the team met Swain was looked at and the balance according to available statistics is pretty much spot on. So, I'd rather share some insights on Swains game play today rather than ask for straight buffs. I made a post about Swains visuals in the past so I'm just going to stick to the game play side only.

Right now I would say the rework is actually good in that it has cohesion and at least somewhat similar game play to the original, although it lacks at least one other DOT in the kit to synergize with the ult. He would have better item strength if he did have another DoT to match with the typical Liandry + Rylai combo, but other than that the new kit is done fairly well and has a nice thematic of armored sorcerer chucking lightning.

However, Swains play rate is extremely low right now. I think that's because (as someone who has played the champion a lot myself) he just isn't that satisfying to use. There is no, "Gotcha!" moment with Swain. Even hitting his full combo often doesn't feel very rewarding. He also has some minor things which make him awkward to use.

Some things that could make the champion feel better to play:

  1. Slightly increase his attack speed. His new auto attack animation is better than old Swains notoriously awful one, but his attack speed is slightly too low to make use of it properly. There is often a long pause during the wind up which I think could be easily fixed by a slight attack speed increase (probably around 5%). Unless it was an intentional inclusion, that wind up time makes it harder to farm and harder to get in harass during the laning phase.

  2. Let Swain move while casting Q. I understand this would make him better at kiting, but it would also help him against extremely mobile enemies. Kiting out a difficult mobile enemy while moving and casting Q is what Swain SHOULD be doing. He's already immobile so increasing that during casting only makes it worse.

  3. On the ultimate it would better to do something extra with souls and remove Demon Flare all together. For the amount of cool down on the ultimate I would rather that it be stronger DoT and heal and simply remove the flare portion. Without flare being part of the power budget can also let it drain from 5 targets. Remember Swains fantasy as a champion is to pop the ultimate and wade into battle and attempt to penta the enemy team while in the thick of the fight. Having his ultimate purposely set to only 3 targets vs his original 5 actively limits you from being able to do that.

  4. Let the Q always pierce through the first target it hits and then only continue to a third target if that target dies. It would make him better at trading in lane, particularly against healing/shielding enemy mid laners who stand in the minion wave (like Sylas or Yasuo). Right now a single melee minion can eat an entire Q. Lissandra already can do this with her Q and hers slows on top of it. Swain is only going to get max damage if he is standing right next to the enemy he is using Q on to get all the bolts. If he is using it to pierce minions at a range he wont be getting full damage on it anyways.

Even if his overall power has to be lowered to make some of the above changes it would make him feel much better and more satisfying to play. I think his current power is about right. He just needs some adjustments to make the champion smoother when played. Most of the comments I've read about the champion seem to have the same consensus that Swain is reasonably strong, but suffers from a really bad laning phase that could be helped with the above suggestions, and that he doesn't feel all that satisfying to play due to having no "high moment" where everything comes together.

Thank you for reading. Keep in mind the above are just suggestions and could use only one of them or all of them as needed.

Vanishya5/24/2019, 3:20:54 PM5 votes

One day, bb Diana Diana :(

beany5/24/2019, 3:32:44 PM5 votes

Thoughts on the nerfs for jayce that is entirely due to his pro presence? It seems this is the first time he is being nerfed without an accompanying high priority in solo queue. It also doesn't seem to address pro players' tendency to pick ranged champs who can be flexed into mid.

Also, any thoughts on how you would reduce the strength of sylas in pro? I think hitting his ability to hold ults for extended periods of time as well as the lv 16 " 2 ults " powerspike could do the trick without significant impact to his solo q performance.

Pischinger5/24/2019, 4:00:04 PM4 votes

Any chance of buffing viktor in near future ? he's been obsolete as mage on mid for a long time and maybe he could use some R QoL changes or number buffs. Viktor

Doozku5/24/2019, 3:13:43 PM4 votes

Is there any new info about Ryze?

xJokerrrr5/24/2019, 3:18:43 PM4 votes

Any changes planned for Rammus? His win rate is very high, and he has very few counters in the current meta. Not to mention he is extremely frustrating to play against.

He also has extremely good waveclear, and his ganking is very powerful.

Eleshakai5/24/2019, 3:28:41 PM4 votes

Mentioning the Diana thing - I feel like a big part of the problem is that AP bruisers simply aren't supported by items. Are there any plans to work THAT into your changes so that she doesn't feel like a square peg trying to fit into a round hole?

Fine Ionian Silk5/24/2019, 3:41:28 PM4 votes

Hello Meddler,

Riot has been doing a lot smaller gameplay updates and changes on individual champions recently, how has the general feedback been in receiving these smaller gameplay updates and changes? Is there a chance that Riot will continue to do these, and if so, what champions are currently in mind as likely subjects to this?

Predatorator5/24/2019, 4:53:13 PM4 votes

Any news on Skarner?

ggambino5/24/2019, 5:32:42 PM4 votes

What is the objective with the Akali changes? Those passive changes seem very heavy handed for a champ that's been nerfed fairly consistently.

rag5/24/2019, 7:03:21 PM4 votes

Thoughts on Swain? I remember reading a Rioter, might have been you, say that the team was looking at Swain for buffs but might not get any due to being pretty balanced and still seeing some sort of pro play.

The Tank Man5/24/2019, 7:23:44 PM4 votes

yuumi good

Quality Content5/24/2019, 9:38:29 PM4 votes

What are the team's opinions on the current state of jungle and the general dissatisfaction with the role? It's felt awful to play since the xp changes. It's too easy to fall behind and too difficult to recover.

Spideraxe5/24/2019, 3:23:39 PM3 votes

Also do you have any opinions on Sylas, since Squad5 mentioned you guys have some changes planned

Rebel Phoenix175/27/2019, 11:19:35 PM3 votes

It's good to hear there is going to be further work going into Teemo's E, but that's far from the only problem that plays into what I consider an overall dissatisfying update.

The only build I feel still works is On-Hit, because so much of his power has been put onto the new passive. Q is weaker, but empowers passive. R is weaker, but empowers passive. E is a mess, but gives you an AS buff that will empower passive. W is still irrelevant to everyone's dismay.

TL;DR - The passive is really strong, but the cost to his overall power makes on-hit seem like the only viable strat. Q nerf means he can't assassinate well. W sucks. E shouldn't have an inbuilt detriment like a slow or footprints or any damage reveals, but if there must be such a mechanic put it on W as a double edged sword. R bouncing shrooms is a joke. 5 shroom cap is a placebo; give us a lower recharge or longer duration.

Breaking it down

Passive: Poison on passive is nice if solely for the fact it gives me flexibility in ranking other spells. Gaining poison damage with levels is certainly nice, and there is no denying that the 50% amp is really strong. To the point that I fear it crowds out his power budget, forcing his other spells to be weak to the point that only On-Hit builds still work. Th passive has more base damage at later levels, and the instant On-Hit also has a lower AP ratio so that doesn't help AP or Assassin builds.

Q: Lower base, particularly at higher ranks, and 20% less AP means this is a significantly weaker burst tool. The burst this spell offered is largely what made Teemo capable of assassinating targets from stealth.

Coupled with the inconsistency of the blind debuff leave this spell still feeling lackluster. For example, Ekko's E still applies passive and damage if he is blinded. I believe there are other on-hit effects that still apply during blind, and empowered auto's are not consumed during blind which really sucks. Basically this will slightly reduce incoming damage for a brief duration, but more importantly will empower your passive - again all about On-Hit.

W: This spell is still lame. There is no scaling, there aren't any additional effects, it's really just boring. One thing that the rework has repeatedly been trying to do is find ways to make Teemo's stealth weaker. I disagree with this approach, as I'll get into next, but if it's non-negotiable then tie the detriment to W. If Teemo casts W while invisible he leaves behind toxic footprints in his haste. The footprints will give a clear indicator of Teemo's whereabouts, but allow him to travel faster. The footprints can either apply a some form of debuff/small DoT, or even just mark the target as "poisoned" for the effect of his passive.

E: Obviously this is the most contentious spell, since it's the biggest change, and there are similar spells to look at for comparison. Namely Twitch Q.

First looking at current numbers involved. Teemo can move 700/750/800/850/900 units. Base movespeed translates to 2.12/2.27/2.42/2.58/2.73 seconds of travel. More movespeed (like W) will reduce that duration. He gains 25% vision radius. He gains 20/30/40/50/60% AS for 3 seconds. CD is 40/37/34/31/28s - reduced while in bush.

Twitch's Q lasts 10/11/12/13/14 seconds and grants 10/30% movespeed, which would equate to 3630/3993/4356/4719/5082 units of travel. More than 5 times the range at all ranks. Notably, it's camo, not invis, but Twitch doesn't want to be within the 500 units needed to see him, so that doesn't really upset him much. Twitch gains 30/35/40/45/50% AS, so more early less late than Teemo, but his lasts 5 seconds instead of 3. Twitch Q also gets a hard reset if someone dies while poisoned, and it's otherwise on a flat 16 second cooldown.

Taking all of this in, I think it's pretty easier to argue that Twitch Q far surpasses the currently proposed Teemo E. It lasts longer, has a stronger steroid early that allows for easier snowballing, has a more powerful reset, and provides MS during the stealth. One of the two main uses of Teemo's stealth (and Twitch's) is to surprise an enemy and assassinate them. Twitch has more burst than Teemo, more range than Teemo, and more AoE damage than Teemo (Twitch always gets Hurricane, and uses it better than Teemo can), and his stealth tool, at least so far as I see it, is stronger than Teemo's.

Despite all of this, you are adamant about Teemo having some additional detriment to his stealth. I think this is ridiculous, but if it's the only way for this to work, then as in my above point, tie it to his W. Give the Teemo player the choice between "true" stealth, or "rushed" stealth. If he chooses to use move quick while invisible he gives away information about his location, but the opponent then needs to decide if they want to chase him. While we're at it give, either make E duration based, or distance with a MS ratio; it's pathetic right now.

R: I swear to god if "infinite bouncing mushrooms" is taking up a non-zero amount of Teemo's power budget I will scream. This is the stupidest addition I've ever seen. I hate it more than I despise Dunkmaster Ivern, which I thought I hated with every fiber of my being until I saw this. THE ONLY TIME I HAVE EVER USED THIS WAS IN A MOCK ATTEMPT TO "STEAL" OVER BARON WALL. It's a joke in lane. It's a joke in teamfights. It's a joke when split pushing. And frankly, it's a joke when trying to steal an objective. You would be more likely to succeed a steal by using the blast cone and casting Q; bonus points for using A>Q>A, which would be more damage than the full duration of the mushroom! Instead of forcing me to use two shrooms to "safely" get a mushroom in a bush I know is being camped, give me more than a 400 unit range at rank 1! Almost every dash/blink/ranged CC outperforms 400 units!

For the rest of it: I get that the general community sentiment is that shrooms are obnoxious. I also get that if you build a tiny bit of MR and actually make use of sweepers and pinks then they aren't a problem. If the bottom line is that the Teemo player must be held accountable for the failings of ADCs everywhere and shroom damage needs to be nerfed then so be it. But for all that is good give me some real compensation instead of "4/5 shroom cap at levels 11/16". Give me a lower recharge time! If they hurt so much less let me have more of them! That's that goal of increasing the cap, but the problem is the only time Teemo actually hits the 3 shroom cap is if he dies, if he recalls with 2/3 shrooms, or if he's not playing well! AT ABSOLUTE MAXIMUM this increases total shroom threshold by 2. You could accomplish the same by reducing the recharge by a tiny amount, or extending the duration by 30 seconds even!

Flavi Kang5/24/2019, 6:15:57 PM3 votes

I remember you saying on the previous post that Yi is weaker in all MMRs after 9.10. Why is Yi nerfed on the pbe? Can you provide context? Have you considered funneling while deciding to nerf him?

ScatterTheWeak5/24/2019, 4:18:13 PM3 votes

@Meddler Is there any way we can get some work on Syndra's W. Like I know we dont want to buff her or anything because pro play. But her W being such a small hitbox for how massively long the cast animation is. I feel like this definately warrents the ability being stronger in some way. Id like to see the max rank knock up finally added back to it concidering its super easy to predict dodge it, which gives it more of a zone control aspect when she has something held with W and its maxed out. Could also see the mana cost being reduced to like 80 at max rank because an ultimate level mana cost for a spell thats VERY difficult to land is kinda upsurd. Like I dont want her damage buffed at all. ITS LITERALLY just her W that needs some a change. I REALLY think the 0.5 second knock up should be added or the mana cost reduced. Any thoughts?

G Master Hung5/24/2019, 3:08:27 PM1 votes

Hey Meddler! Earlier this month you mentioned an update or statement on clash. Is that still happening?