Plant Spawn System Iteration 10/25 (PBE)

RiotRiot GMang·Oct 25, 2016·1 votes·10,980 views

Cross-posting from the PBE thread :

Hey everybody,

Thanks for trying out plants and letting us know how they played. We've read a lot and are using it to inform the design. Some of the concerns we want to address right away:

"Plant spawns (especially Blast Cones) feel too random and can't be planned around."
"Plants are adding too much clutter."

So, based on recent feedback (especially PBE and some internal feedback), we've done a significant iteration on the plant spawn system:

The locations where Blast Cones can spawn are no longer randomized, and fewer will spawn
The "game start" Blast Cones now represent the only possible spawn locations
Removed most Blast Cone spawn locations; total per quadrant: 5-6 -> 2
Max Blast Cones alive at any given time per quadrant: 3 -> 2
Respawn time now begins on corpse cleanup instead of "Ready" state
Respawn times increased across the board
Seedling growth time increased: 30 seconds -> 60 seconds
(This is the stage of a plant life cycle where it's scoutable but not usable yet.)
Made other small adjustments to plant positions
Nudged some Honeyfruit spawns so they aren't "inside walls" or obscured by terrain as much
Moved the Scryer's Bloom spawn location between Blue Buff and mid lane a little away from mid (towards river)

These were submitted to the PBE code on 10/24 (should appear on the 10/25 build), so the details of the old system explanation will be a bit outdated.

Try the changes out on PBE and let us know what you think!

27 Comments

Over InnsmouthOct 25, 201611 votes

I'm glad to see that you guys are responding to community feedback, it really means a lot!

However, should there be a continuous negative response, are you still open to the idea of removing Plants altogether?

RiotRiot GMangOct 25, 20168 votes

Nothing's off the table, though I don't think we'd rush to that. First impressions can get messy, especially if you have communication issues (which we've had on Plants imo). Last midseason, for example, randomized dragons and red/blue camp respawn indicators drew massive criticism before ship. While some people still don't like them, I think it's fair to say they at least didn't turn out as bad as pre-release threads indicated.

A personal tangent from my experience: As games evolve, "obvious wins" become rarer, and the philosophy of "the riskiest thing is to not take risks" starts emerging (you see this in other long-evolving games like MTG). Plants are a new design space in many ways, and it's possible they won't work out. But after playtesting them in various forms over the past several months, we think there's something valuable there.

SpideraxeOct 25, 20166 votes

If you do remove them what would be the back up plan, like returning smite buffs?

gyyyrOct 26, 20165 votes

I like the the addition of Plants but there is one thing that differenciates Dragon RNG from this plants RNG.

Even if you lose a teamfight just because of the dragon buffs, no one will blame the dragon buffs for the loss of the teamfight(even if it would be correct in this situation). The players will say their positioning was bad or they didn't have a good enough team synergy or whatever but it will never be the dragons fault(except for elder, but elder isn't RNG. elder is guaranteed to be the next dragon when there is no dragon at the moment and the clock is at 35 minutes or more). If someone survives because of a plant, the players will blame the plant for making them loose the teamfight. The plants feel much more impactful than the dragons, even if they may not be more impactful.

Both are visible long before they are useable so both teams can contest them and can use them strategically, but it's still not exactly the same.

Btw. I couldn't playtest them yet because I don't have a PBE account, so this is all based on things i've read or seen

NaqelNov 9, 20161 votes

Has it ever been considered to have all the plants available all the time, and only suffer a cooldown after use. Basically, what controls their availability being usage, and not random chance.

Also, having played a few games on 6.22 live, I must say that the only fun plants are the Blast Cones.

ChronabisNov 10, 20161 votes

As a jungle main, no the plants are something I do not want to see again. The assassins are fun, but the plants... I will reinstall when they get removed.

funshipOct 30, 20162 votes

[{quoted}](name=Tides of Blood,realm=EUW,application-id=A7LBtoKc,discussion-id=6EEq4frh,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2016-10-25T20:30:09.438+0000)

I'm glad to see that you guys are responding to community feedback, it really means a lot!

However, should there be a continuous negative response, are you still open to the idea of removing Plants altogether?

yes awesome how they listen to community feedback, nobody wants plants in the first place but yea gj riot ty for listening

Vhan8765Oct 25, 20166 votes

[{quoted}](name=Riot GMang,realm=NA,application-id=A7LBtoKc,discussion-id=6EEq4frh,comment-id=,timestamp=2016-10-25T20:26:44.074+0000)

Try the changes out on PBE and let us know what you think!

I would like to, but I don't think I'll ever be accepted.

Feels bad man. item 3070

ÜdyrOct 27, 20165 votes

Wouldn't reducing amount of plants make it less complicated and make room for smite buffs again?

I don't comment on here often but felt compelled to re: plants.

I've playtested on PBE. Plants in and of themselves do not warrant the backlash they have received. I'm fairly neutral on plants themselves. It's what they they forced out of the game that warrants the backlash (smite buffs).

Here are my concerns from what I consider myself to be a pretty level headed jungler:

Of the three plants, blast cone seems to be the most dynamic "risk" or choice that is being implemented. But it is basically a free flash in the middle of the jungle. Could be used to engage/steal Dragon or Baron. Could be used to engage/escape. I don't see much more potential than that and I see more frustration that satisfaction coming from an RNG free flash that changes the tide of the entire game.
Honeyfruit's heal is free hp. Nothing dynamic about it other than the slow. When players walk by it they will take it 99% of the time unless they are being engaged/chasing. Even then... frustration from RNG free heal in a duel or someone at the losing end of a trade stays in lane indefinitely. Of the three plants, this is by far the most pointless. In jungle's current state I feel it is unnecessary since smite heal is allowing most junglers to go through jg healthier as it is.
Scrying Orb is interesting giving true vision in a massive cone. But it doesn't excite me or feel additive. This will be a compelling tool in late game contesting objectives but i find it a poor vision tool for much else due to its RNG and short active time. I also don't like the pollen broadcasting your location to the enemy team. Feels like its a win-lose to use it most of the time. "I know where you are. But you know exactly where I am." Not very compelling.
Finally my biggest concern (if you've made it this far) is not the plants themselves, but what they forced out of the game; smite buffs. As a jungler main, smite buffs represent some of the most compelling choices/tools for the role of JUNGLER. The single faceted "smite heals" now is not very compelling to me and dumbs down the jungle... especially withe in spawn timer going from 100-150.

At the end of the day people will get used to them and play around them. It will not lead to the death of League as we know it, but I feel it is change for the sake of change... and this case, that is not a good thing.

Anyway - three people will probably read this so I'll wrap up. Thanks for reading!

Lord DesertOct 27, 20161 votes

So, as one of the three people reading this, would you like to help me finetune an idea to make these plants alot better in terms of stratigic desicion making? And potentionaly bring back smite buffs? Its quiet fleshed out, but its always better to get another imput. And you seem like someone, who sees the potential and also the danger of those plants. First of, I have the same stance as you; Plants= meh, removal of smite Buffs= bad idea. So do you mind helping me a bit?

ÜdyrOct 31, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=Lord Desert,realm=EUW,application-id=A7LBtoKc,discussion-id=6EEq4frh,comment-id=000c0000,timestamp=2016-10-27T20:43:03.171+0000)

So, as one of the three people reading this, would you like to help me finetune an idea to make these plants alot better in terms of stratigic desicion making? And potentionaly bring back smite buffs? Its quiet fleshed out, but its always better to get another imput. And you seem like someone, who sees the potential and also the danger of those plants. First of, I have the same stance as you; Plants= meh, removal of smite Buffs= bad idea. So do you mind helping me a bit?

How can I be of assistance?

Lord DesertOct 31, 20161 votes

First a Sum Up of the problems:

Plants are only usefull for an ahead team, additionally throwing the weaker team even futher behind, with absolutly no counter measures/trade-of.

HealPlant aka. Honeyfruit:

Only used by bullies, making them even futher unbalanced/make snowballing easier
no Trade-of

VisionPlant aka. Scryer's Bloom:

Breaks Vision & Vision Denyal completly
gives ahead teams free vision denyal every 4ish mins... making it even harder for the team that is behind
Trade-of very small

BombPlant aka. Blast Cone:

90% cleared before usefull
a free escape/dash only the level of a Flash(!) without a trade-of
ranged have an advantage

#Fixes/Solutions:

** "Grow Up" & "Rescue" Mechanics:**

Grow Up: Plants have 2 Stages: "Jung" and "Mature" "Jung" is a weaker then the current version. "Mature" is as strong as current version. "Growing" from "Jung" to "Mature" should take around 1min.

Giving the Plants 2 Stages forces the Player in a Risk/Reward Decision!!! Ether taking the Risk to wait and get a bigger Reward, but the possibility that the enemy might snatch the Plant away, or take them now, but only get a small reward! Thats normally what Riot wants/likes.

"Rescue:" After a Plant is used, they leave withered remains behind for 30 sec, like a ward. IF one Team uses a Plant, ONLY the OTHER Team can "rescue" this Plant by clicking on it WITHIN THOSE 30 SECONDS! The Plant will then instantly respawn as a Seedling, beeing ready to use in 60 seconds.

This effectivly counters the complete clearing of the plants before a fight (which happens in 99% of all cases, because you are warding an area and can simply "clear" the plants too). This also gives the Player the possiblity to activly influence the RNG of the Plants and is in itself a stratigic decision with again Risk and Reward (the enemy might be able to use it, but it might help me too. So should i rescue it or not?). It is only available for the team that is behind, giving them a possible "comeback" option, and not only a "better snowballing" for a team that is ahead.

Changed Plants, with "Grow Up" Mechanic

HealPlant:

slows while eating the fruits

"Jung":

    - less healing(~66% - 75% of current version)
    - a debuff, lasting ~10seconds.
    - debuff could be: "_Dmg vs Champs reduced by X%_"(5-10% ish) /"_Healing Reduction_"(like the summoner Heal, does not affect the heal from the plant + duration depends on the amount of fruits eaten)

"Mature":

       - full healing (100% - 120%/125% of current version)
       - no debuff( but still slowed while eating the fruits)
       - (cause the fruits are now fully "ready" to eat)

VisionPlant:

if an enemy Control Ward or is used/in range, the duration of reaveal will be halfed
if "raptor buff" or is used, the reveal will be completly removed in the area of effect, OR to 3 sec reduced

"Jung":

        - no Stealth Ward reveal!
        - maybe lowered range/duration

"Mature":
```
        - like the current version
```

BombPlant:

If used by a ranged champ it has a 0.5s delay before exploding!

"Jung":

       - does dmg to the user (only a flat amount of dmg)
       - smaller knockback
       - only the user gets knocked away, does not effect others in range! (basicly a 1 person use/impact only)

"Mature":

    - Still does Dmg, maybe even a bit more
    - now effects everybody in range, not only the user (for them 5 man tower dives/pit jumps)

#Additonal Plant Changes:

Plants could have 2-3 Hp instead of 1 (Blast cones should stay at 1Hp)
Hurrican Bolts cant hit Plants
the plant near the bot/top river bush should be a late/mid game plant (they can currently spawn in the early game)

possibly another plant at/in the Drake/Baron Pits:

   - "**Shield Plant**":
   "Jung" : - gives +5% Ar&Mr for 10-20 sec
   "Mature": - additional 10%-15% Bonus Hp Shield

(This Idea comes from a guy named Doomyous)

I would like to discuss some jungle Buff changes in another comment, just to keep them a bit more clean, but they will interact/influence eachother of course.

So what do you think of these changes? Will the plants be balanced a bit more with them? Are there flaws or holes? Any other ideas or additional ones for one of these mentioned? Any open Questions/Concerns?

FableBlazeNov 1, 20161 votes

{quoted} but I feel it is change for the sake of change... and this case, that is not a good thing.

IMO this sums up plants nicely.

warpenguin555Oct 25, 20163 votes

A problem im having with them on the PBE is that when i see a plant i just mow it down, paying little attention to which kind it is unless im trying to find a certain one, and i rarely go out of my way to do that. I only look for the Blast Cones to mess around with some kind of outplay ill probably end up botching on the live servers and throwing the game, but since i like to play with 9 bots on the PBE it makes no difference. Also i like to use Rengars jump into them because its kinda funny. HoneyFruit i hit because I'm too lazy to back. And Scryers i just mow down to watch the animation on the mini map. (again I dont play with or against others on the PBE too much so this one is useless in a good majority of my games). But the times i actually care which one I kill or just killed are around 3% of the time in both games with real people or me and 9 bots. TBH I still like smite buffs better.

BreezyZonaOct 25, 20163 votes

just remove them from the game already

AeszarckOct 25, 20163 votes

Thanks for listening to community feedback. I like the concept of plants and I don't want them removed, so if you placate the community with these changes I'll be stoked. They all sounds pretty good and seem to be in the direction of what people wanted, but I'm not a PBE player so I'm not sure how it was before or how it will be now.

CrazFight Oct 25, 20162 votes

I like how technically it was made less "Random" , and i know riot said they don't think adding a random aspect to league isn't seen as a bad thing, but because you added plants , smiting red and blue no longer give your mana/hp back, so I think its ok to add random aspects (I do love the drags) but why remove not random aspects?

TheSingularityOct 26, 20162 votes

If I could upvote and hug you for your honesty, transparency and visible activity concerning the plants.... I'd never let go :D

WildEmpyreanOct 25, 20161 votes

Blast cones just feel way to clunky and useless to me. I never been in a position that they would help or hurt me. This might just be me but I feel they are totally useless, and just add another factor into the game that we don't need or want. I do however love the other two plants.

Lord DesertOct 25, 20161 votes

Sadly i have no PBE acc so i need to write it here: What do you think about breaking the power of the plants into 2 stages? The two are "jung" and "adult/old".

jung is a bit weaker then the plants right now, maybe some small debuffs on using them. (honeyfruit gives a 10 sec reduced healing debuff(cause the fruits arent ready yet), Scryer's Bloom gives vision, but no ward detection, Blastcones knockback distance is reduced or so)

and the adult versions is like the current version or maybe a little bit stronger if wanted. (honeyfruit does not give a debuff anymore and more fruits/healing, Scryer's Bloom reveals now wards too, Blastcones have a bigger radius or does a bit fire dmg to knockbacked enemys etc.)

The main reason for this change is to make you decide: using them now for a small advantage, or taking the risk of the enemy possibly taking them but if not than you get a bigger reward. This would improve tatical desicion making around those plants alot.

And as an extra: if the enemy uses a plant, then you can "rescue" it in the 30sec timeframe where they are "withered", to make them respawn as a seedling instantly( they still need 60sec to be used and then they are only the "jung" version). So even if the enemy roams or gets far ahead, you still get some windows to react to that. What do you think about this idea?

BârdOct 25, 20161 votes

Would you consider doing a buff to Scryers Blooms?

Instead of a cone of vision, it should grant sight in an area around it, which then extends in the direction of your attack.

This is because, often times, you would want to use a Scryer to scout the enemy jungle or objective. Therefore, most people won't use it to look at their own jungle, which leads the back side of a scryers bloom to be one of the safest places to place a ward, which isn't very intuitive.

L0G1C B1TOct 26, 20161 votes

Perhaps plants can work but right now they do not seem exciting at all. Most features I have been excited for but plants seems meh at best. I mean basically (on their own) you get

a heal. Most of the time it will be just a non-decision to pick it up if you happen to pass it. Perhaps a few times you will get very lucky (or unlucky) in a chase or team fight.
a jump that 95% of the time you will just clear to get to the next camp faster. 5% of the time you feel super crappy that luck rather than skill allowed your enemy to escape. Also they screw over melee (like with the current meta we need MORE of an incentive to play ranged Junglers...)
a vision... thing... that seems like the most interesting but in no way replaces things like wolf smite (protect you from counter jungle OR punish enemy jungler for being away from wolves), and raptor buff (which the strongest was not the killing of wards, but know you have not been sited while counter jungling or ganking.

Even on their own (if they were just an added feature) it just seems very meh. Combined with the fact that we have to give up smite buffs is just depressing. Early game, smite buffs give me choices. You can outplay people strategically (sneak into enemy jungle for an ambush wearing raptor buff, bait with low health near red only to smite it, smite wolves while running to keep vision on the enemy, etc.)

I really hate the idea of trading smite buffs for plants BUT as riot seems determined to shove this down our throats, PLEASE at least make some interesting ones. Give me reasons as a jungler to be excited for plants. I was so excited when smite buffs came out. Do the same for plants. Sure some will ALWAYS complain about changes, but if you give us something that is really cool is return it is easier to keep an open mind. Give me a raptor-like or wolf-like plant that I can use sneaky like in ganks. Or maybe something crazy like turning me invisible (though this might also be super toxic lol). I don't know, just something "cool", something that takes time to setup and feels really satisfying if you pull it off (not just randomly passing a satchel that saves you). Something that will make me look out for them and use them, and feel good about. A heal, a ziggs satchel, and a hawk shot are just... meh. The current plant ideas are just not... cool. All they add is BS randomness and take away Smite buffs.

~David, Jungler Main

iBlitzcrankOct 26, 20162 votes

[{quoted}](name=L0G1C B1T,realm=NA,application-id=A7LBtoKc,discussion-id=6EEq4frh,comment-id=0009,timestamp=2016-10-26T00:23:10.037+0000)

Perhaps plants can work but right now they do not seem exciting at all. Most features I have been excited for but plants seems meh at best. I mean basically (on their own) you get

a heal. Most of the time it will be just a non-decision to pick it up if you happen to pass it. Perhaps a few times you will get very lucky (or unlucky) in a chase or team fight.

a jump that 95% of the time you will just clear to get to the next camp faster. 5% of the time you feel super crappy that luck rather than skill allowed your enemy to escape. Also they screw over melee (like with the current meta we need MORE of an incentive to play ranged Junglers...)

a vision... thing... that seems like the most interesting but in no way replaces things like wolf smite (protect you from counter jungle OR punish enemy jungler for being away from wolves), and raptor buff (which the strongest was not the killing of wards, but know you have not been sited while counter jungling or ganking.

Even on their own (if they were just an added feature) it just seems very meh. Combined with the fact that we have to give up smite buffs is just depressing. Early game, smite buffs give me choices. You can outplay people strategically (sneak into enemy jungle for an ambush wearing raptor buff, bait with low health near red only to smite it, smite wolves while running to keep vision on the enemy, etc.)

I really hate the idea of trading smite buffs for plants BUT as riot seems determined to shove this down our throats, PLEASE at least make some interesting ones. Give me reasons as a jungler to be excited for plants. I was so excited when smite buffs came out. Do the same for plants. Sure some will ALWAYS complain about changes, but if you give us something that is really cool is return it is easier to keep an open mind. Give me a raptor-like or wolf-like plant that I can use sneaky like in ganks. Or maybe something crazy like turning me invisible (though this might also be super toxic lol). I don't know, just something "cool", something that takes time to setup and feels really satisfying if you pull it off (not just randomly passing a satchel that saves you). Something that will make me look out for them and use them, and feel good about. A heal, a ziggs satchel, and a hawk shot are just... meh. The current plant ideas are just not... cool. All they add is BS randomness and take away Smite buffs.

~David, Jungler Main

What David has to say here is absolutely true.

In a game with a huge e-sports scene that is promoted every year in more and more regions of our planet, things need to be cool. Not just for the audience, though, also for the people who aren't in the audience, and just hear about it later. Turkey's e-sports scene is the perfect example. Even after seeing SuperMassive go 1-9 in the 2016 mid-season invitational, LoLesports wrote an article on how they 'won our hearts.' There is more and more hype about the wildcard regions each year. Bangkok Titans were huge in 2015, SuperMassive were also at worlds but as Beşiktaş e-Sports Club (they changed names after a re-branding in January this year). There is a whole branch of Riot positioned in Istanbul, and they seem to be doing their jobs just fine. The primary focus is on creating new content and diversifying the game to a point where publicity is higher because the e-sports is super cool, with all of this new content, do you (Riot Games) intend to open up to more regions and remove the Wildcard Tournament?

If publicity through cool and lucky gameplay is what you want in return from the plant and jungle revisions, do you intend on bringing more than just SKT, RNG_(not that kind you silly goose)_, TSM, and other big name brands to the table when it comes to tournaments? Or will you just ignore the growing regions and make them fight for their chance to play on the big-stage? Russia's Albus Nox Luna came pretty far this year for a wildcard team while only 3-2ing their knockout stage opponent.

By adding these flare elements, if you will, and removing the aspect of an intellectually competent strategy with which to define play-style, all junglers will end up taking the same 'standard' jungle paths and the game will become boring. Except for when the RNG comes into play and a game changing variable has been introduced, like the enemy sneaking baron. Information that could be prevented is no longer concealable, taking a whole layer of strategy away from the game. Will the game add more visual pizzazz? Of course. Will it make audiences 'ooh' and 'aah'? Of course. Will it make the pro players and the top tiered players actually have to adapt and learn new types of strategy to bring to the fight next season? Of course... not.

Let's talk about smite.

The strategy behind smite buffs and the synergies with different champions and their roles allowed smite to develop into more than just a tool for securing objectives and combating champions. Items already gave smite more aspects of play-style(blue/red), so why not keep that empowering feeling of being the sole controller of smite on your team, the decider of what to prioritize, damage(gromp), objectives and clears(krugs), vision(wolves/raptors), or just basic vitals(mana and hp from blue/red).

By removing the smite buffs and adding plants, you are essentially breaking the game down to season 4, and adding RNG plants to the mix. Why won't the pro junglers just find the best jungle paths and stick to them? That's what they did in season 4 and before. This season, we just saw in the knockouts that junglers had different options, and that counter play to paths is a viable and noticeable part of the game(example Faker in game 4 versus Rox Tigers).

By removing strategic appeal and adding visual appeal, I predict that the e-sports scene will dissolve into nothing but a milky version of it's current state. Bjergsen - a top tier mid laner in NA - is cheating by having Aurelion Sol 4th banned from his games because pros haven't figured out a 100% counter him. He has done it twice now, reminiscent of how the WWE sets up matches and makes rookies win because they want a new face to represent their 'game'.

This is what Riot has come to? Wanting a new face (the jungle) to call in more attention from 'oohs' and 'aahs' as pro players depressingly shift around the jungle using exploding plants in order to procure the most cash to win by stats? To have secretive baron fights exposed because some jungler clicked on a plant? Let the community and the pros keep the srategy, keep the next level thinking and mechanics. Let the bronze players work and learn to advance, not get lucky with some plants and follow set patterns developed by the pros.

I don't want to see that. I refuse to see a shadowed version of my favorite game be put on the Jumbo-Tron at times square (next seasons venue Urgot ).

Instead of introducing new random things and taking away old strategic things, why don't you give the jungle rework fit for a dragon? Randomly placing the smaller camps. The buffs are still there, the smite diversity is still available. The vision and counter-play are still not completely reliant on area of effect RNG. Instead, the buffs are spread out and there is not one distinct path that junglers take. The pros are forced to adapt and react to every game, while the players can't directly copy them(a disaster after support MissFortune ). It offers a new kind of game in the jungle, while also retaining the same aspects that strategy has evolved out of around the dragon. It forces new shifts and patterns around the jungle(as the dragon forces fights over important buffs), it creates diversity, while retaining the control and strategy of professional League today.

These are my two item 3301

Thank you for reading, if you made it all the way through. It has been a pleasure writing, and I hope to get some kind of Riot feedback.

Best wishes, Griffin 'iBlitzcrank' Meeks

(P.S. Riot I took your skin name, what 'ya gonna do?)

DevlinCrowOct 26, 20161 votes

Any chance of an official video guide on plants when they are released? They seem very confusing!

HEXXEN9xNov 6, 20161 votes

Thanks riot! Plants are legit in my book. I have been wanting some map hazards ..... now that I think about it,get out of my head @_@!!!

[zombie-brand-mindblown]

BanoffeeDec 3, 20161 votes

Where does the feedback come from? Also just because a player likes plants doesn't mean they dislike the smite buffs. Actually, want to make everyone happy? Add both. There's no reason not to.

The jungle feels less rewarding and interactive.

Before, it had depth. Raptors were a go-to. Clear early wards after first clear. Gank after B. If the enemy jungler was a bully, pick up wolf ward. If I needed to kite early because the lanes looked to scary to gank early I'd pick up krugs. If I picked Sej, gromp was a good starter. If I was counter-jungling I could feel confident doing it with raptor buff and get out if I was seen. This was really useful with Kindred and Shyvana.

Now the jungle is boring and uninteresting. There's no strategic engagement. There's no thought. What's the point in jungling now? It doesn't feel like I'm jungling. I'm just laning in the woodline. I say this as someone who started playing in season 3. Jungling back then was boring too. Things got a bit interesting when double jungle was a thing. Rek'Sai got released and she made the jungle interesting. Then we get the jungle buffs -the holy grail of jungle satisfaction. We were holding down our side of the map. We secured resources. We had control of an entire half of the field -or all of it if you were good. It was something you could feel protective of and shout on allchat "gtfo MY jungle!" "My jungle now." "Try again bby." "My jungle."

You were the curator of everything your side of the river. And as a jungler, that's what made it awesome whether we utilized it to max effect or not. Denying us that because not everyone does maximize its potential is fucked up.

I don't like the role of jungling anymore. I like my champions still, but I can't take Kindred into lane. I can't take Shyvana top reliably. I can't take Sejuani into lane. My only other jungler is Diana.

The plants don't offer engaging gameplay of any kind. I've only found them useful as support bot when a low-hanging honeyfruit is there for sustain. I typically blow up blast cones and sight plants so they can't be used against me in a situation I can't control. Even then, using the sight plant in your own jungle signals your location. There's no strategic use for that unless you're using on the fly to invade and escape. Wait, I have a plant in my jungle that's most reliable used against me? Blast cones? What if I'm using Kindred who can't 1v1 and they have a Shaco or Vi? I get bulldozed and they escape if I manage to outplay them with the plants in my jungle? You can't always control the positioning. You can't control your jungle. Controlling the jungle is what makes jungling gratifying. My jungle should be void of creatures. I should be decked in buffs. And the map should be lit like Madison Square Garden. I don't feel any sense of satisfaction with these uninteractive, unreliable, and boring plants.

Please hear this Riot. The jungle is our sanctuary. You had it right. No one bitched about the buff jungle. We love it. Keep it. Stop trying to change what already works and is loved by the junglers in the community. Why is it fair to ask a mid-laner or a top-laner or a bot-laner if they like the new jungle? They're not junglers. Do you ask a motorcyclist whether he like the concept design for the BMW M1? No. You ask the car enthusiast. He's the one that matters. Laners don't care about the jungle as long they're fed and get buffs and objectives. It's our job to handle that and you've stripped all the enjoyment in doing it from the game. Buff jungle wasn't broken. Stop trying to fix it. We love it. And just because some people like plants does not mean they dislike the buff jungle.

You said you would consider bringing the buff jungle back. I hope that's still on the table.

As a player who's been here since S3 I've been a part of many other gaming communities as well. By far, this community is filled with the most discontent in company decision-making that I've seen. Discontent, I know this isn't lost on you guys. I still remember all the nerfs and reworks and these boards lit up like a riot fire. The Sona rework holds particular significance in my mind. Even calm posters turned toxic with that fiasco. Here though, you had something you're praised for. You had a jungle we love. You had a jungle that's interesting and engaging. Go back to the buff jungle. It's untrue that if you like plants you don't like buff jungle and you're about to essentially go back on a groundbreaking LoL innovation and take us back to the dark ages. The choices we made defined us as junglers. If Lee Sin wanted to save his red smite to bully me as Kindred. He was well within his rights to take the risk. He could've used it elsewhere. He didn't. He manages to kill me and it pays off. I decide to keep my smite as Sejuani and bring down the red buff for extra health. I could save it for the laner I'm about to gank or in case the enemy Shaco invades, but I decide health would serve me better. I gank bot and survive with 10hp. My adc gets a double kill and my decision pays off.

Plants kill the magic that makes our decisions worth something.