Wolf Spririts and Emergent Behavior

RiotFearless··1 votes·42,704 views

Let’s talk about the wolf spirit.

As a default, we want to allow - and encourage - players to find new and surprising ways to play the game. On the flip side, however, we’re always watching for game health issues with emergent gameplay; is this the only way to play? Does it come with meaningful tradeoffs? Is there counterplay?

In the case of the Wolf Spirit, the ability to send the spirit on a long and silly journey across the river by smiting the wolf on the opposite side of the jungle has been known to us since before release (that is, almost a year and a half ago). We viewed this as a strange but very high cost trick for the jungler - specifically because they would also require very specific compositions (Syndra, Tahm Kench, or Blitzcrank). This was further confirmed in our mind when we saw a few videos, a little discussion, and then nothing thereafter. So we kept it!

Fast forward almost a year, and in patch 5.20 we introduced leashing changes in the form of ‘patience’ where it became a lot easier to pull off this trick. We saw some players trying it out and wanted to see how much adoption would pick up - particularly in organized play - before we acted. And… we didn’t see it picked up anywhere once again. So we decided to keep it, again.

As it turns out, however, the lack of adoption of was only artificially true. Due to an unfortunate falloff in communication, we weren’t aware that pros had been banned from using the cross-map Wolf Spirit, despite expressing a strong desire to do so. Combine that with the current high community awareness, and we’ve got new facts on the table.

Given how obtuse this trick is to access (for now) and how much demand there is to use this at more organized levels of play, we’re recommending that the Wolf Spirit behavior remain treated as an exploit for competitive play. In 6.4 (unless testing and validation extend that), we’re going to investigate how we can preserve some of the unique play of a ‘spirit across the river,’ but with real support, balance, and clarity.

We understand that this has been very painful for players, and apologize for the confusion in how we handled the situation.

-Fearless

52 Comments

Outlaw1511 votes

When you say it will be treated as an exploit in comptetitive play, does that also apply to normal and ranked games? If I use this trick/bug/strategy in a game is there a risk of me being reported or banned?

RiotFearless5 votes

Tracking down a concrete answer. Give me a few...

RiotFearless14 votes

Definitive answer: No. If this gets out of hand, we'll fix/disable stuff to keep the environment fair.

Retillin10 votes

Why is something allowed in normal ranked but not pro?

EmperorxZurg1 votes

entertainment value

Mr Wedge1 votes

They're not going to punish people for something they let happen. But in competitive, fairness is a priority. Riot hasn't "balanced" this mechanic, so it's not "fair."

Masalar2 votes

First thing I can think: Ease of observation. Trying to figure out when it was done in all ranked/normals, who did it, if it was intentional, if they even knew it wasn't allowed would be a nightmare. Doing that for pro games is incredibly simple. If there were an easy way to let every single player know it wasn't allowed AND to "punish" for it, they might have done that. But it's not, sooooooo that's where we are now.

r1tch5 votes

Is it intended or is it a bug?

Why did the OCE team got punished for using it if the referees told them it was ok?

And finally, is it related to the warwick rework?

RiotFearless6 votes
  1. It was unintended during development, but known and allowed.

  2. That is being handled by a very different part of Riot, hoping we can get someone with expertise to speak on that.

  3. No.

Fenrisulfr1 votes

https://www.reddit.com/r/leagueoflegends/comments/44q9d0/how_to_abuse_the_wolf_spirit_all_champions/czsi5eq

Reinboom says its intentional.

So, seeing this thread is totes awkward. This interaction is intentional. In development, we had the wolf spirit actually watch over the red side of the jungle if you dragged it there. It caused that the existence of Syndra would basically ruin Poacher's (white smite) due to how jungle paths would naturally play out.

RiotFearless5 votes

That was our position before we understood that pros hadn't been able to use the behavior freely. It was a known behavior, and we had intentionally not changed it. We are adjusting based on new information.

Retillin2 votes

So it was a known and allowed feature, but not allowed in pro games. Why one and not the other? Why not either just remove it, or just allow it?

RiotFearless6 votes

We believed it was allowed in pro games, but due to miscommunication, the behavior was banned for pros.

Now that we better understand the strength of it, we need to either change it or remove it, and we'd rather support the emergent gameplay.

Nefas2 votes

If it's intended behavior why is it banned in pro play?

RiotPWYFF15 votes

due to miscommunication, the behavior was banned for pros.

ehlo4 votes

The person you are responding to did ask why it is banned in pro play but all you did is stated that the behavior is banned in pro play.

If you get stopped from walking into a building for whatever reason and ask the person at the door "Why?" they usually give you an answer such as "Not appropriate attire" etc, they do not however usually just repeat "You can't come in".

So I will ask, why is in banned in pro play but allowed in casual players games?

Cutie Lulu1 votes

{quoted}

The person you are responding to did ask why it is banned in pro play but all you did is stated that the behavior is banned in pro play.

If you get stopped from walking into a building for whatever reason and ask the person at the door "Why?" they usually give you an answer such as "Not appropriate attire" etc, they do not however usually just repeat "You can't come in".

So I will ask, why is in banned in pro play but allowed in casual players games?

We have to assume that it's simply because the esports part of Riot sees this interaction as game breaking despite the fact that it's an intended mechanic.

Foltzmeister6 votes

Based on what I've read in this thread it sounds like the person who made the call to ban pros from using it saw it as an exploit/bug that was too strong to allow, while the Rioters who knew about the bug thought it wasn't a big deal. There wasn't enough communication, hence the miscommunication & conflicting statements

TotalJerk6 votes

They've literally repeated the answer to this question 4 times now.

ehlo4 votes

Oh? What is the answer to why it is not allowed in pro games?

Because repeating "It's not allowed" isn't an answer to why it isn't allowed. All that is, is stating that it's not allowed it is not the reason behind why it is not allowed - to which I'm curious about considering they said they do not take issue with it happening in solo queue.

ClocksAkimbo10 votes

Uuuhh... they've said why.

The programming team was aware of the interaction, but didn't consider it to be an exploit, so they left it alone. Then a different division of Riot (I'd assume the part that organizes logistics for pro tournaments), looked at it and thought something like "that's an exploit" and due to miscommunication with the programming team, they didn't get the memo that it was allowed. And Riot central's only just found out about the mixup. So now, for the sake of consistency, they're officially saying to treat it as an exploit until they can have a proper look at it in 6.4

Seriously, the info is all there, it's pretty self-explanatory.

Retillin1 votes

I would say just remove it. You don't really want another Lee ward hoping, or Riven animation cancelling to happen do you? (I mean the new patch just removed animation cancelling for Graves..)

troyofathens1 votes

{quoted} 2. That is being handled by a very different part of Riot, hoping we can get someone with expertise to speak on that. Hoping that the team gets some reconciliation

Bramble Berry1 votes

So that means the team that got punished unfairly won't get compensated? got it

LRM Guardian1 votes

{quoted}

  1. It was unintended during development, but known and allowed.

  2. That is being handled by a very different part of Riot, hoping we can get someone with expertise to speak on that.

  3. No.

Wait a second, on the reddit post about it a rioter was there saying that it was intended as at the time of its original development the new leashing mechanic hadn't been implemented yet, and as such it was harder to do but was put there to allow for creative plays. With the leashing changes it became much easier to do and he said that it may be re looked at.

Jeddy0175 votes

Um............wait........the wolf spirit can be pulled over the river?This is a thing?

Katakana 1 votes

Totally a thing, youtube it. You'd be surprised at how many people can actually do it.

Jeddy0171 votes

I honestly never knew about it.Probably due to the fact that I barely jungled.

Blackquill2 votes

So TL;DR is that you kinda want to keep the option to send the wolf spirit to the enemy jungle but only when it comes with a meaningful tradeoff?

RiotFearless6 votes

Basically, but there are also game health concerns. If it turns out that the experience of an invading wolf spirit would be oppressive at high frequency, we'd need to change it. This would be true even if the smiting jungler felt a meaningful trade-off.

Grrv3 votes

The problem with this is that the jungler, with absolutely no risk and with very little resource expenditure, gets to confirm that the enemy jungler is or is not on half of the map. Sure, they might be on their Blue side map but in the river, so it does not immediately confirm that the enemy jungler is in their red side jungle for sure if the wolf does not react to their presence in the blue side jungle, but it is reasonable enough to say that if the jungler is not in the blue side jungle but is on the blue side of their map, that within 30 seconds or so the jungler will return to the blue side jungle (and thus trigger the wolf warning).

All I can see this doing is creating a frustrating experience where potentially every 1:40 (respawn timer on the wolf) the enemy jungler will know where you are with 80% certainty (obviously I don't know the numbers for sure, but you can make strong deductions with this kind of information) and you will (in theory) be unable to pressure the side of the map with the wolf spirit without taking very obscure (and predictable) pathing. Your options for ganking bot lane as a Red Side jungler would be to walk up the mid lane, go through river bush, and go down the river or go through the tri-bush by walking through the raptor's opening or by jumping over dragon wall (edit: or through lane) The only counterplay to the wolf spirit is to counter jungle it (difficult, but doable) or to be noticed by the spirit and have it follow you until it disappears (which wastes time and gives your position away).

TL:DR unfun mechanic, little counterplay, low cost, no risk, rito pls

Sir Headless VII1 votes

{quoted}

All I can see this doing is creating a frustrating experience where potentially every 1:40 (respawn timer on the wolf) the enemy jungler will know where you are with 80% certainty

Its actually worse since if you are willing to leave the large wolf alive you can do it whenever smite is off cooldown.

AndiVx4 votes

[{quoted}](name=Sir Headless VII,realm=NA,application-id=A7LBtoKc,discussion-id=2xEFcqkU,comment-id=0004000000000000,timestamp=2016-02-11T05:44:02.956+0000)

Its actually worse since if you are willing to leave the large wolf alive you can do it whenever smite is off cooldown.

Not really. Jungle camps only have one smiting buff, that gets removed when you smite them.

Wizard Hat1 votes

The problem with the invading with wolf is that for a jungler doing a full clear, being on Red side has a massive advantage. Red side gets their second smite just in time to finish wolf, and with minimal time loss can perform this trick at around 2:30, as both junglers normally move to the top side of the map. This means the wolf spirit sits on the jungler for three camps and tracks their recall/jungle exit, and if doesn't find them, that also gives a ton of information, because they have to be looking to gank mid/bot from dragon river. Meanwhile, for blue to do this on first clear, blue loses a ton of time and for most of the duration the red bot jungle will likely be empty anyway

Resanmber1 votes

Why dont u make it go to the red side of the jungle instead?

Lonome1 votes

i need help how can i contact anybody, some guy is doing the "i have friend in this game that can perma ban because you are still not good at the game" and i feel that should be dealt with on threatening and scaring players

SoDistructful2 votes

dont remove it

SpecterVonBaren2 votes

I'd rather you just changed it so doing this makes it patrol YOUR Red Buff jungle. Every other buff can be used anywhere, poison to monsters, stun to monsters, reveal a ward...

But the buff that reveals enemies is only on one half of your jungle. Why? There's nothing more important about one side than the other, so why can't I be allowed to have the patrol on the side I'm most worried about?

Celio Hogane HD1 votes

well i mean anyway the spirit wolf was kinda bad, it was such a specific place, it was almost never usefull. (i mean now hardly you can actually use the 3 max wards, before was usefull for an extra vision, now is... well i could put a ward anyway)

Leaves1 votes

What if the wolf had TWO smite-able buffs? As in, when you smite it the first time, you get the first, and current, wolf spirit, and when it's smited a second time (BEFORE being cleared!), you get a wolf spirit in the enemy jungle. This solves the problem you mention of having a meaningful tradeoff, because for a jungler to get the buff, it would require them to use both of their charges on the same camp, forcing inefficient clears (since there's that 15 second cooldown between smites).

CisoSecond1 votes

I didnt even know this existed. Honestly I'm sure if I fully understand how it works in the first place.

So if Syndra carries it to the opposite jungle it will patrol their instead? What if you take it to red and also why not just smite the enemies wolf? You need like 3 (2 with jungle kench) in order to do it anyways.

LostMind1 votes

So basically, Using it in competitive play = Illegal Using it in solo queue / everything else = accepted? (for the time being)

Just want to make sure, so I don't get in trouble for doing it in ranked.

AndiVx1 votes

They could make the wolf could be attacked (with one AA of life) ultil he reaches his spot on the map. That way you add very little counterplay to smiting in your side of the jungle, but a lot if you are trying to send him to the enemy jungler (specially if they decrease his initial speed).

You could even make the wolf do a global sound when you smite it to go to the enemy jungle, so the enemy team have the option of going to kill it (the midlaner) or going out of the jungle (the jungler).

Paniro1 votes

What happens with other banned bugs, e.g. minion blocking at first wave & Kalista W @ drag? Are there even more?

SunSlayerKD1 votes

Why not allow it to be dragged towards & patrol the red buff's side instead of the opponent's blue buff, actually?

AzureInTheDark1 votes

Spirit*

Alleo1 votes

I would think that a meaningful trade off would be causing the spirit to deteriorate faster if it is smited..smote..?..on the opposite side of the river that if spawned on?

Treslibras1 votes

How about a longer distance wisp spawns if the player smites a smaller wolf?

Eunbi Bias1 votes

Wolf Spririts Do you mean Wolf Spirits?

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