Quick Gameplay Thoughts: February 15

RiotMeddler·Feb 15, 2019·1 votes·158,338 views

Hi folks,

Usual Disclaimers

These posts will often contain talk about future work we're doing, or planning to do, that isn't yet guaranteed to ship. The nature of the work could change or, depending on what we discover, projects mentioned may get delayed or even stopped. If you'd like to see a Tweet whenever a new one of these posts goes up: https://twitter.com/RiotMeddler

Karma

Late last year we explored some changes to Karma that involved giving her a new W that reduced allied CDs amongst other things. That tested pretty well, though also raised some questions about whether Karma was the right fit for it. After some further testing and discussion while waiting on some code changes for it we've backed away from plans to put that on Karma. We'll likely explore it for another champion at some point instead though.

We don't have other changes currently underway for Karma. Something we'd like to try whenever we do next work on her though is an adjustment to her passive. That would involve giving it charges that get consumed whenever she deals damage that reduce her Mantra CD by a much larger amount than at present. Goal would be to allow spikier, clearer successes, rather than the more sustained Mantra tick down as at present. Curious how that sounds to those of you who play Karma?

Spectator Bugs

Brief update here. We've confirmed that some fixes (e.g. Sion weirdness) are good to go for 9.4 next week. Got some other bugs work's still underway on that should be addressed in 9.5.

Likely 9.5 balance targets

Akali - Putting some simple power back in now we've had enough time to see where she stabilized after the 9.3 changes. Waiting a patch after large changes rather than doing immediate follow up is something we're planning on doing more often for champs who've been really challenging to balance.
Neeko - E buff, aiming for power and potentially better clarity of gameplay.
Aatrox and Rakan - Potentially simple power buffs, not as guaranteed as Neeko and Akali though.
Urgot - Very unlikely he gets changes in 9.5. More likely we look at him in 9.6, given his nerfs are in 9.4 and as above we're aiming for a bit more observation time more often now.

http://ddragon.leagueoflegends.com/cdn/6.24.1/img/champion/Ziggs.png

286 Comments

IxtaliKingFeb 15, 201927 votes

Hey Meddler, I'm glad to hear the CDR changes aren't going through, they really didn't fit Karma.

In regards to the passive, I'd like to ask why this "spikier" variant is preferable to the more sustained route?

Back in S4 when I started playing Karma, her passive was 2s and that seemed perfectly fine. It encouraged Karma to engage a lot more frequently and felt more rewarding when you actually got Mantra back, because you worked hard for it. It seems as if a lot of her problems since 5.10 have been rooted in getting too much reward for minimal interaction - especially once her passive refund reached 4s.

These changes were all to compensate for the removal of damage from RE, which caused more problems than it solved. This brings me to my 2nd question which I hope you'll answer so I can stop going on about it lol, why isn't Karma being given changes similar to Leblanc and Rengar? That's what we thought we were getting based on statements from yourself and MapleNectar...

They all have failed mini reworks in common and were all better off before their changes, although not perfect.

FafliXFeb 15, 20192 votes

Actually the problem is not her getting too much for minimal interactions, it is her getting too much for long interactions. Especially since better players are significantly better at getting the maximum out of her passive, compared to lower skilled players. One of the biggest reasons she is doing so much better the higher you go in elo. At least that was the reason stated when the changes were first shown.

Also those changes were not meant to compensate for removing her RE damage, the removal of her RE damage was meant to balance out the buffs to her passive (since one RE would refund the entire R CD in teamfights). Again, that was the reason we were given back then.

Honestly, if they just revert her to the S4 variant, I wouldn't complain to much, especially since I loved the bonus damage on RW, but I was exited about the proposed changes, and now I'm disappointed we won't get anything for a while apparently. I'm prepared for Karma to not receive any changes for month again.

IxtaliKingFeb 15, 20197 votes

Actually the problem is not her getting too much for minimal interactions, it is her getting too much for long interactions.

This doesn't actually clash with what I'm saying.

When I say this I'm referring to Karma being able to potentially land a 5 man Q and take 20 seconds off her Mantra. Or even 12 seconds for 3 enemies. The point is; regaining Mantra takes significantly less effort because the passive rewards spell hits too greatly.

Naturally, this will be abused even more over longer interactions, like you said.

Edit:

Also those changes were not meant to compensate for removing her RE damage, the removal of her RE damage was meant to balance out the buffs to her passive (since one RE would refund the entire R CD in teamfights). Again, that was the reason we were given back then.

Lol again, we're arriving at the same destination from different starting points. What is clear is that whichever way you approach it, these changes go hand in hand. We can't know for sure what came first the passive buff or RE damage because we weren't at Riot. However, I fall on the side of believing shield bombs removal came first simply because the stated premise of the rework was "increasing contextual decision-making". In other words, giving each Mantra an entirely separate identity of their own... which created it's own issues, but I won't go there..

AlsiusFeb 15, 20192 votes

The old, pre-rework Karma was infamously one of the weakest champions in the history of the game. I'm not sure if you want a revert back to that period. It wouldn't be a bad idea to bring back aspects of that kit (maybe make her RE a shield that detonated after a few seconds, increase her damage dealt, let her Ultimate have charges), but there is a legit reason they removed the original Karma from the game, rose-colored glasses nonwithstanding.

IxtaliKingFeb 15, 20195 votes

I agree. I wasn't referring to pre-rework, most people who talk about a revert today aren't actually talking about pre-rework. We're mostly over that. Its the pre-5.10, the 3.5-5.10 iteration.

evilsforrealsFeb 15, 20196 votes

I mean to be fair, Karma was introduced into the game when there was no starting support items like Coin/Spellthief. She worked decently mid, but as support she suffered mostly due to a lack of good gold income. If old Karma was introduced in the present, I feel she would have been better received, as more consistent gold/vision for support and better runes to work with could compliment her playstyle.

RammBorghiniFeb 15, 201913 votes

HI meddler don't you think that tank items should have more hp to be worth buying ,even at the cost of lowering their resistance , with this much true dmg and pen , Hp value is way better excepte for some cases

RiotMeddlerFeb 15, 20199 votes

9.3 took some true damage out with the IE change, 9.4 will remove some more with Conqueror's adjustment. Agree it's sometimes felt like Armor hasn't been as good a choice as you'd expect, think the issue's more on the damage side than the item side though.

SkiasFeb 15, 20192 votes

{quoted}

9.3 took some true damage out with the IE change, 9.4 will remove some more with Conqueror's adjustment. Agree it's sometimes felt like Armor hasn't been as good a choice as you'd expect, think the issue's more on the damage side than the item side though.

Hey Meddler. I'm a Taric player and due to Taric's adc like power curve, I feel like I'm weak early and made of paper late game despite stacking health and armor.

Catalyst is such a comfortable item on him and eternity feels like it should be core, what would be the chances of getting an Armor based variant upgrade for it? Abyssal mask is the only really worthy upgrade for Taric but a full AD team means he pretty much can't upgrade it.

I have to build SO many stats to be effective. Can you please consider consolidating his scaling so it is easier to focus on certain purchases (Health, Mana, Armor).

In alternative to that, Taric has always felt like an Armor scaling champion. Where do you think he would fall balance wise if his heal lost the AP scaling component and gained armor scaling? The problem with many support items is they give him AP which I generally think isn't as useful to him as tackiness. He is forced to constantly eat poke due to his play pattern to access Bravado.

He needs something else outside his ult to allow him to fight all the ranged threats bottom.

Pokemonred200Feb 16, 20191 votes

{quoted} Catalyst is such a comfortable item on him and eternity feels like it should be core, what would be the chances of getting an Armor based variant upgrade for it? Abyssal mask is the only really worthy upgrade for Taric but a full AD team means he pretty much can't upgrade it.

RIP the days when item 3800 built out of a item 3010

SkiasFeb 17, 20193 votes

{quoted}

RIP the days when built out of a

For real. It feels really bad when your champ isn't part of the 10 populars, so he just gets ignored.

I have no idea how balancing this game is sustainable when they only seem to be able to focus on like 3 to 4 champs at once. The time table for less mainstream champs to get attention is literally years in some cases. Ridiculous.

Blood TellerFeb 15, 201913 votes

So are you guys fine with the current state of Taliyah Taliyah ? She's been gone ever since the last change, on some sites like u.gg it doesn't even show her neither as a jungler or midlaner. You said you wanted to change only her jungle performance, but still went for monster and MINION damage nerf on Q. She has already lost her AoE and now the full damage on minions, which makes her laning phase awful. And the -10 mana cost and cd buff doesn't compensate for it.

YL 666Feb 15, 201911 votes

Hey meddler,any Wukong news you can share?

RiotMeddlerFeb 15, 201912 votes

Not yet. Do have some early stuff in testing though, some of which shows promise some of which isn't working.

Warden KarmaFeb 15, 201911 votes

Hey Meddler,

Many Karma mains ask for her shieldbomb to return (it used to be her iconic ability after all... its like removing Viktors laser or Garens spin to win).

Pre 5.10 Karma seemed to be the healthist incarnation (huh); why isnt she reverted to that/used as a base for a rework?

There are so many exellent and very popular suggestions as to how make her more fun to play with and against, adding counterplay, depth and skillexpression, for example:

https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/RHn0ZE62-quick-fix-for-karma

https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/oxNbhh7j-a-detailed-post-on-karma-and-her-twin-dragons

The last one is a good example of how much people desire Karma to be more thematic and have an identity, everything that has been ripped off her after her VGU and continuing. Karma has so much potential (visually and gameplaywise) and it just feels so wasted. She feels hollow. She shouldnt be.

(Also I agree that the proposed changes are largely not helpfull to fix any of her many issues)

WhoIsJohnGalt149Feb 15, 201910 votes

Putting Karma on the backburner again with nothing in the works is quite disappointing, although not really surprising at this point.

SpideraxeFeb 15, 20197 votes

Hey Meddler can I ask when we may expect more news about Nexus Blitz?

RiotMeddlerFeb 15, 20195 votes

Should be fairly soon, we're expecting the final data analysis this week or next after which we should be able to share where our heads are at.

Kaisa AranFeb 15, 20197 votes

I'm still hoping you guys look into Kai'Sa's AP/Hybrid itemization & how those are doing win-rate/pick-rate wise compared to Crit build, it really does feel like Crit is crowding out any other option for her at the moment and for a versatile ADC meant to be able to utilize multiple different builds if the situation calls for it it's sad to see that Crit is dominant where it shouldn't be.

On top of this her winrate is still bad according to U.GG and the fact that it's staying around the same as the pickrate for Stormrazor + Guinsoo goes down leaves me concerned.

ZaghyrFeb 15, 20197 votes

What are your thoughts on Xayah ? She has been weak for a very long time now and while having Essence Reaver again is nice, the crit item changes as a whole have not helped her.

Malicious MetalFeb 15, 20196 votes

Hey there Meddler!

I had a question regarding Aatrox.

Wouldn't exploring something similar to Renekton's dash be worth looking into?

Currently he can't really hit multiple edges of the Darkin blade and feels quite clunky to play. Giving him a potential double dash on a meatier cooldown (Say 20-14 seconds) would allow his moments of power to be more impactful while not allowing him to sit on one charge as a fallback pattern.

I do enjoy playing Aatrox but he does suffer from some major issues regarding his strength/weakness profile so anything that'll push his kit into a healthier spot would be appreciated.

AFilthyCaitMainFeb 15, 20196 votes

I would like it the Karma update somewhere in the future focused on fleshing out her unity between Battlemage and Support. I feel that it fits her lore/theme perfectly and it feels very unique. I feel like shoehorning her into one role takes away from a lot of her appeal.

C9 Squeeky Feb 15, 20196 votes

When will Manamune get a rework? Only Ezreal buys it. Not even Jayce buys it anymore except maybe on ARAM. Niche items are fine but not when only 1 champ buys it/the item is balanced around said champ.

MizunoFeb 15, 20194 votes

I agree, Manamune really needs a rework or buff so it can become an interesting buy for ad casters like Urgot, Jayce or even Pantheon. As a starter, maybe they could add CDR on the item so it becomes more cost effective.

Hyrum GraffFeb 15, 20195 votes

{quoted}

Karma

Late last year we explored some changes to Karma that involved giving her a new W that reduced allied CDs amongst other things. That tested pretty well, though also raised some questions about whether Karma was the right fit for it. After some further testing and discussion while waiting on some code changes for it we've backed away from plans to put that on Karma. We'll likely explore it for another champion at some point instead though.

I think this was a good choice.

We don't have other changes currently underway for Karma. Something we'd like to try whenever we do next work on her though is an adjustment to her passive. That would involve giving it charges that get consumed whenever she deals damage that reduce her Mantra CD by a much larger amount than at present. Goal would be to allow spikier, clearer successes, rather than the more sustained Mantra tick down as at present. Curious how that sounds to those of you who play Karma?

I have 130k Karma points, plus 200+ games in S4 before champion mastery was introduced. I never played pre-rework Karma.

I've said this to you before (in client), but the main thing I want is making Mantra choice a more nuanced decision. Pre-5.10 Karma got damage from all her Mantras, and you chose based on which kind of utility you wanted (heal/slow+easier Q/aoe shield). It was harder to figure out which Mantra was optimal, but that allowed for a deeper mastery curve and kept her interesting to play after many games. The only problem was that RE was overtuned compared to the others in 5v5 teamfights.
- One significant problem introduced with 5.10 is that Mantra's late game cooldown is too low relative to her other spells, W in particular. I often want to use W to reduce Mantra's cooldown, but doing so would make R come up significantly before W. It's weird anti-synnergy when I have to ignore my passive in order to maximize my ult choices.
Regardless of lane (mid/top/supp) or build (ap/supp/bruiser), Karma thrives in extended fights. I like this about her and would like it to stay. I do appreciate that it means she can't have the same kind of power in short fights, and I'm OK with that.
- I also appreciate that it's hard to balance for lane and teamfight power, since laning is basically one super extended fight, but I think it's possible with gating behind mana costs and levels; I'd like you to try.
Also regardless of lane or position, I think Karma is most interesting at closer ranges, where she's forced to use her whole kit to avoid damage. While I'm sure there are some people who prefer spamming RQ and playing safer wannabe Xerath, I think they're a small minority of Karma mains.
- Answer to your question: I'm concerned that a spikier passive — particularly one that removes the incentive to AA — would promote in-and-out combat patterns and/or boring, reactive play where you poke with Q, wait for the enemy to engage, and grab your passive charges while disengaging with W+E.
- Probably just me: I used to run a hybrid Karma top build (hybrid pen runes with bork+zephyr+roa+tank) where you relied on AAs to proc your passive. Called it SUPER SUPPORT since your goal (after bullying lane with dblade start) was to body block everything for your adc while whittling down their frontline. Nowadays R cooldown is so low you don't need any extra AS to ult constantly.

If Karma were on the table for a full VGU, I'd probably be more willing to compromise on a couple of these as long as the end result was well executed. However, I don't think she'll be a top priority in that department for a few years, so I'd prefer to see a small gameplay update that uses 5.9 Karma as a starting point and investigates:

Tweak RE for better teamfight balance
- Delay the explosion (Ivern-style)? → Less reliable to hit multiple targets for quick ult refresh.
- Maybe even delay the AOE shield until the explosion happens (though I'm wary this might feel bad).
Tweak or even replace passive with something else that encourages extended fights.
- Only keep reduction on autos?
- Passively generate charges; hitting spells generates additional charges; hitting autos consumes charges and reduces ult cdr?
- ????

Zoli BenFeb 15, 20194 votes

Hi Meddler, what do you think needs to be changed on Blitzcrank on Ezreal level VGU gameplay wise? Curious about what is viewed as wrong with him.

RiotMeddlerFeb 15, 20196 votes

I wouldn't personally change much at all, though maybe there's room for some work on the ult, power versus appreciation of power on the passive for example.

No current plans for an Ezreal style VGU on Blitz though. If we did another one along those lines he'd be a strong candidate for it, don't have one planned though and probably won't for quite a while unless we end up with a lot of extra artist time without corresponding design and engineering time to pair with them (what's needed for a standard VGU).

Zoli BenFeb 15, 20192 votes

What about hook being switchable or something to help allies? It'd be more instant than Thresh lantern and I know it is high risk due to trollyness, but his ingame tries to destroy enemies while trying to save in lore.

RiotMeddlerFeb 15, 20195 votes

I agree that would be a good fit for his revised personality/lore. It's a really substantial change to a champion with stable and healthy gameplay though. In cases like this we'd want to put gameplay over lore. Not saying that's ideal, but that if we have to make a trade off it's the way we tend to lean.

SedirexFeb 15, 20191 votes

{quoted}

unless we end up with a lot of extra artist time with corresponding design and engineering time to pair with them

Was that intended to be without corresponding design and engineering time?

RiotMeddlerFeb 15, 20194 votes

It was, thanks, good demonstration of why I shouldn't try and get through champ select and respond to stuff at the same time there...

ThornyZyraFeb 15, 20194 votes

Consider changes for Zyra. I'm not a big fan of rng abilities. Also, you could work around her seeds. You could bring vision after stepping on passive seeds and add slow/toxins to her [w] seeds. I believe she can be balanced and atm she's too good or too bad all the time. "Turret" abilities are hard to balance, I know but you guys can try improving her gameplay. I really like the new passive Lissandra got. Something similar would work for Zyra aswell.

VekknaFeb 15, 20194 votes

Consensus Priorities:

Buff W plants
Nerf (or remove) passive plants
Clean up mismatching ranges and animation locks
Revert Q shape or increase hit box depth (shorten width)

Optional:

Add pure AP ratio bleed/poison somewhere in kit as a tuning lever for mid
Some effort

IllabetheFeb 16, 20191 votes

The Q is larger than it was in any old version. Even in depth. The "large circle" recollection is a fiction of the imagination. It was a circle relatively that could fit inside the current rectangle.

VekknaFeb 18, 20192 votes

Spawn area and hitbox are not the same thing. The current Q spawn area is much larger. The hitbox is ~100 units deep, and the old hitbox had ~150 unit radius.

This is the same misunderstanding that causes survey data to show that the new Q is more popular than the old one.

IllabetheFeb 18, 20191 votes

To me it is more popular than the old one. Once you learn the hitbox it's blasted easy to hit, and has a longer effective range. It also allows you to set up more complex plant arrangements and hit more of them. It also allows you to hit more champions.

Why would you want to give all that up?

VekknaFeb 18, 20192 votes

and has a longer effective range.

This is 100% false. They both have 800 range. Deadly Spines extends to ~825 max. Deadly Bloom extended to ~950 max.

Once you learn the hitbox it's blasted easy to hit

It can be easy to poke with at an angle in some situations. If you're trying to EW a target it's not easier to hit because the enemy is not in range if your E landed at anything beyond 825 range.

It also allows you to set up more complex plant arrangements and hit more of them.

You're really proving my point here. The spawn area and the hitbox are not the same thing. You can have the old circle with the current spawn area, in which case there is no change to plant spawning.

Why would you want to give all that up?

Because the circle doesn't require actually giving up anything aside from the weird angle poking. It's better for wave clearing, has longer effective range according to math, and adds significant effective range to your full combo.

For example, you used to be able to execute your whole combo outside the range of things like Ahri Q, Lissandra Q, Zed Q, Leona E, etc. Now you can't, and somehow you think that's good for Zyra.

AVINIIFeb 15, 20194 votes

Why not consider mechanical buffs for Aatrox instead? I think we already saw that straight power puffs do not work.

YumaS2AstralFeb 15, 20194 votes

Hey Meddler

What do you think of Fiddlesticks?

Your last big changes to him didn't seem to do what they were intended to do; to help him in the jungle. Instead they killed the viability of mid lane Fiddlesticks and made him OP as a support.

He is more bearable now after the nerfs, but do you think it is healthy? I mean, Fiddlesticks still isn't a good jungler, he is dead mid, the only place where he can go now is support. While this is not by itself a bad thing, I would rather have Fiddlesticks not be viable in only one lane, especially one that he wasn't intended to be played originally. (also I miss Fiddlesticks being viable mid).

Can you give some thoughts about him?

IllabetheFeb 16, 20194 votes

Hi Meddler. I still don't understand how Charges and the current Karma would have different Mantra results. You're saying what I'm assuming are two different things:

You'd have easy access to Mantra possibly twice a skirmish.
You'd also run out of access until you recharge the charges.

Currently a good Karma can almost instantly reset Mantra anyways, so the benefit end of this tweak probably would be negligible unless you explained more in depth where and when the charge system would benefit.

It sounds like an outright nerf to me.

Here's why: Karma's current skill expression is NOT in just Q spamming. It's in getting close enough to champions to secure a W, while moving fast enough to avoid skill shots, and then accenting play with Q's when W is secured as a root. It usually requires 2 sets of casts to kill, but is far more reliable than just flinging Mantra > Q.

When you put a cap on Mantra recovery, the result is she may lose this identity, because it may remove her auto attack/w/ then Q viability. It would basically bottleneck her methodology into 2 volley Q spam, which is a reduction of expression.

It basically turns her into a short range Zoe.

Something I did like in the previous Karma talk:

You mentioned that your Karma passive was going to activate on Large/Epic Monsters/Minions. That's a function not currently in the game, and I wouldn't mind that. Karma has a strong synergy with jungle minions already due to her R / W.

7thHeavenFeb 16, 20195 votes

Karma should has another rework like this lady https://imgur.com/a/A2kB5nD

Rathar DashingFeb 15, 20193 votes

What's happening with the Vi changes?

RiotMeddlerFeb 15, 20197 votes

Probably in 9.4.

Edit: Ah, sounds like we had to push them to 9.5.

Rathar DashingFeb 15, 20192 votes

What made them get pushed back? They seemed fine to me, were they appearing too strong/too weak?

RiotMeddlerFeb 15, 20193 votes

A few days ago at least they were too strong so that was being worked on. Not sure if any bugfixing's needed as well.

Tin ObliteratesFeb 15, 20192 votes

What buffs will Aatrox be getting, exactly?

Also, are there any plans to bring his two dashes back in some way?

RiotMeddlerFeb 15, 20193 votes

Likely just pretty simple buffs to things like base stats or ability numbers, rather than any mechanics changes.

RγυjιηFeb 15, 20194 votes

{quoted}

Likely just pretty simple buffs to things like base stats or ability numbers, rather than any mechanics changes.

Tbh I think that Aatrox could have his healing back on jungle monsters, as the nerfs were intended to nerf the healing on lane, Jungle Aatrox got too much punished for no reason, as he wasn't broken or anything else on jungle, I'd love him to be viable at jungle again.

voice9Feb 15, 20192 votes

Hey Meddler, any love for my favorite bird Azir?

RiotMeddlerFeb 15, 20194 votes

Just the attack speed buff in 9.4 for now. He's someone we're really hesitant to buff too much at once, agree he needs a bit of help right now though.