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Quick Gameplay Thoughts: February 15

RiotMeddler·2/15/2019, 5:10:17 PM·1 votes·158,338 views

Hi folks,

Usual Disclaimers

These posts will often contain talk about future work we're doing, or planning to do, that isn't yet guaranteed to ship. The nature of the work could change or, depending on what we discover, projects mentioned may get delayed or even stopped. If you'd like to see a Tweet whenever a new one of these posts goes up: https://twitter.com/RiotMeddler

Karma

Late last year we explored some changes to Karma that involved giving her a new W that reduced allied CDs amongst other things. That tested pretty well, though also raised some questions about whether Karma was the right fit for it. After some further testing and discussion while waiting on some code changes for it we've backed away from plans to put that on Karma. We'll likely explore it for another champion at some point instead though.

We don't have other changes currently underway for Karma. Something we'd like to try whenever we do next work on her though is an adjustment to her passive. That would involve giving it charges that get consumed whenever she deals damage that reduce her Mantra CD by a much larger amount than at present. Goal would be to allow spikier, clearer successes, rather than the more sustained Mantra tick down as at present. Curious how that sounds to those of you who play Karma?

Spectator Bugs

Brief update here. We've confirmed that some fixes (e.g. Sion weirdness) are good to go for 9.4 next week. Got some other bugs work's still underway on that should be addressed in 9.5.

Likely 9.5 balance targets

  • Akali - Putting some simple power back in now we've had enough time to see where she stabilized after the 9.3 changes. Waiting a patch after large changes rather than doing immediate follow up is something we're planning on doing more often for champs who've been really challenging to balance.

  • Neeko - E buff, aiming for power and potentially better clarity of gameplay.

  • Aatrox and Rakan - Potentially simple power buffs, not as guaranteed as Neeko and Akali though.

  • Urgot - Very unlikely he gets changes in 9.5. More likely we look at him in 9.6, given his nerfs are in 9.4 and as above we're aiming for a bit more observation time more often now.

http://ddragon.leagueoflegends.com/cdn/6.24.1/img/champion/Ziggs.png

286 Comments

IxtaliKing2/15/2019, 5:28:23 PM27 votes

Hey Meddler, I'm glad to hear the CDR changes aren't going through, they really didn't fit Karma.

In regards to the passive, I'd like to ask why this "spikier" variant is preferable to the more sustained route?

Back in S4 when I started playing Karma, her passive was 2s and that seemed perfectly fine. It encouraged Karma to engage a lot more frequently and felt more rewarding when you actually got Mantra back, because you worked hard for it. It seems as if a lot of her problems since 5.10 have been rooted in getting too much reward for minimal interaction - especially once her passive refund reached 4s.

These changes were all to compensate for the removal of damage from RE, which caused more problems than it solved. This brings me to my 2nd question which I hope you'll answer so I can stop going on about it lol, why isn't Karma being given changes similar to Leblanc and Rengar? That's what we thought we were getting based on statements from yourself and MapleNectar...

They all have failed mini reworks in common and were all better off before their changes, although not perfect.

RammBorghini2/15/2019, 5:11:40 PM13 votes

HI meddler don't you think that tank items should have more hp to be worth buying ,even at the cost of lowering their resistance , with this much true dmg and pen , Hp value is way better excepte for some cases

Blood Teller2/15/2019, 5:37:55 PM13 votes

So are you guys fine with the current state of Taliyah Taliyah ? She's been gone ever since the last change, on some sites like u.gg it doesn't even show her neither as a jungler or midlaner. You said you wanted to change only her jungle performance, but still went for monster and MINION damage nerf on Q. She has already lost her AoE and now the full damage on minions, which makes her laning phase awful. And the -10 mana cost and cd buff doesn't compensate for it.

Warden Karma2/15/2019, 5:51:34 PM11 votes

Hey Meddler,

Many Karma mains ask for her shieldbomb to return (it used to be her iconic ability after all... its like removing Viktors laser or Garens spin to win).

Pre 5.10 Karma seemed to be the healthist incarnation (huh); why isnt she reverted to that/used as a base for a rework?

There are so many exellent and very popular suggestions as to how make her more fun to play with and against, adding counterplay, depth and skillexpression, for example:

https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/RHn0ZE62-quick-fix-for-karma

Or

https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/oxNbhh7j-a-detailed-post-on-karma-and-her-twin-dragons

The last one is a good example of how much people desire Karma to be more thematic and have an identity, everything that has been ripped off her after her VGU and continuing. Karma has so much potential (visually and gameplaywise) and it just feels so wasted. She feels hollow. She shouldnt be.

(Also I agree that the proposed changes are largely not helpfull to fix any of her many issues)

YL 6662/15/2019, 5:16:07 PM11 votes

Hey meddler,any Wukong news you can share?

WhoIsJohnGalt1492/15/2019, 5:44:16 PM10 votes

Putting Karma on the backburner again with nothing in the works is quite disappointing, although not really surprising at this point.

Spideraxe2/15/2019, 5:14:26 PM7 votes

Hey Meddler can I ask when we may expect more news about Nexus Blitz?

Kaisa Aran2/15/2019, 5:16:18 PM7 votes

I'm still hoping you guys look into Kai'Sa's AP/Hybrid itemization & how those are doing win-rate/pick-rate wise compared to Crit build, it really does feel like Crit is crowding out any other option for her at the moment and for a versatile ADC meant to be able to utilize multiple different builds if the situation calls for it it's sad to see that Crit is dominant where it shouldn't be.

On top of this her winrate is still bad according to U.GG and the fact that it's staying around the same as the pickrate for Stormrazor + Guinsoo goes down leaves me concerned.

Zaghyr2/15/2019, 8:22:14 PM7 votes

What are your thoughts on Xayah? She has been weak for a very long time now and while having Essence Reaver again is nice, the crit item changes as a whole have not helped her.

AFilthyCaitMain2/15/2019, 5:40:13 PM6 votes

I would like it the Karma update somewhere in the future focused on fleshing out her unity between Battlemage and Support. I feel that it fits her lore/theme perfectly and it feels very unique. I feel like shoehorning her into one role takes away from a lot of her appeal.

Malicious Metal2/15/2019, 5:27:23 PM6 votes

Hey there Meddler!

I had a question regarding Aatrox.

Wouldn't exploring something similar to Renekton's dash be worth looking into?

Currently he can't really hit multiple edges of the Darkin blade and feels quite clunky to play. Giving him a potential double dash on a meatier cooldown (Say 20-14 seconds) would allow his moments of power to be more impactful while not allowing him to sit on one charge as a fallback pattern.

I do enjoy playing Aatrox but he does suffer from some major issues regarding his strength/weakness profile so anything that'll push his kit into a healthier spot would be appreciated.

C9 Squeeky 2/15/2019, 8:48:01 PM6 votes

When will Manamune get a rework? Only Ezreal buys it. Not even Jayce buys it anymore except maybe on ARAM. Niche items are fine but not when only 1 champ buys it/the item is balanced around said champ.

Hyrum Graff2/15/2019, 9:13:45 PM5 votes

{quoted}

Karma

Late last year we explored some changes to Karma that involved giving her a new W that reduced allied CDs amongst other things. That tested pretty well, though also raised some questions about whether Karma was the right fit for it. After some further testing and discussion while waiting on some code changes for it we've backed away from plans to put that on Karma. We'll likely explore it for another champion at some point instead though.

I think this was a good choice.

We don't have other changes currently underway for Karma. Something we'd like to try whenever we do next work on her though is an adjustment to her passive. That would involve giving it charges that get consumed whenever she deals damage that reduce her Mantra CD by a much larger amount than at present. Goal would be to allow spikier, clearer successes, rather than the more sustained Mantra tick down as at present. Curious how that sounds to those of you who play Karma?

I have 130k Karma points, plus 200+ games in S4 before champion mastery was introduced. I never played pre-rework Karma.

  1. I've said this to you before (in client), but the main thing I want is making Mantra choice a more nuanced decision. Pre-5.10 Karma got damage from all her Mantras, and you chose based on which kind of utility you wanted (heal/slow+easier Q/aoe shield). It was harder to figure out which Mantra was optimal, but that allowed for a deeper mastery curve and kept her interesting to play after many games. The only problem was that RE was overtuned compared to the others in 5v5 teamfights.
    • One significant problem introduced with 5.10 is that Mantra's late game cooldown is too low relative to her other spells, W in particular. I often want to use W to reduce Mantra's cooldown, but doing so would make R come up significantly before W. It's weird anti-synnergy when I have to ignore my passive in order to maximize my ult choices.
  2. Regardless of lane (mid/top/supp) or build (ap/supp/bruiser), Karma thrives in extended fights. I like this about her and would like it to stay. I do appreciate that it means she can't have the same kind of power in short fights, and I'm OK with that.
    • I also appreciate that it's hard to balance for lane and teamfight power, since laning is basically one super extended fight, but I think it's possible with gating behind mana costs and levels; I'd like you to try.
  3. Also regardless of lane or position, I think Karma is most interesting at closer ranges, where she's forced to use her whole kit to avoid damage. While I'm sure there are some people who prefer spamming RQ and playing safer wannabe Xerath, I think they're a small minority of Karma mains.
    • Answer to your question: I'm concerned that a spikier passive — particularly one that removes the incentive to AA — would promote in-and-out combat patterns and/or boring, reactive play where you poke with Q, wait for the enemy to engage, and grab your passive charges while disengaging with W+E.
    • Probably just me: I used to run a hybrid Karma top build (hybrid pen runes with bork+zephyr+roa+tank) where you relied on AAs to proc your passive. Called it SUPER SUPPORT since your goal (after bullying lane with dblade start) was to body block everything for your adc while whittling down their frontline. Nowadays R cooldown is so low you don't need any extra AS to ult constantly.

If Karma were on the table for a full VGU, I'd probably be more willing to compromise on a couple of these as long as the end result was well executed. However, I don't think she'll be a top priority in that department for a few years, so I'd prefer to see a small gameplay update that uses 5.9 Karma as a starting point and investigates:

  • Tweak RE for better teamfight balance
    • Delay the explosion (Ivern-style)? → Less reliable to hit multiple targets for quick ult refresh.
    • Maybe even delay the AOE shield until the explosion happens (though I'm wary this might feel bad).
  • Tweak or even replace passive with something else that encourages extended fights.
    • Only keep reduction on autos?
    • Passively generate charges; hitting spells generates additional charges; hitting autos consumes charges and reduces ult cdr?
    • ????
ThornyZyra2/15/2019, 5:38:09 PM4 votes

Consider changes for Zyra. I'm not a big fan of rng abilities. Also, you could work around her seeds. You could bring vision after stepping on passive seeds and add slow/toxins to her [w] seeds. I believe she can be balanced and atm she's too good or too bad all the time. "Turret" abilities are hard to balance, I know but you guys can try improving her gameplay. I really like the new passive Lissandra got. Something similar would work for Zyra aswell.

Illabethe2/16/2019, 10:50:58 AM4 votes

Hi Meddler. I still don't understand how Charges and the current Karma would have different Mantra results. You're saying what I'm assuming are two different things:

  1. You'd have easy access to Mantra possibly twice a skirmish.

  2. You'd also run out of access until you recharge the charges.

Currently a good Karma can almost instantly reset Mantra anyways, so the benefit end of this tweak probably would be negligible unless you explained more in depth where and when the charge system would benefit.

It sounds like an outright nerf to me.

Here's why: Karma's current skill expression is NOT in just Q spamming. It's in getting close enough to champions to secure a W, while moving fast enough to avoid skill shots, and then accenting play with Q's when W is secured as a root. It usually requires 2 sets of casts to kill, but is far more reliable than just flinging Mantra > Q.

When you put a cap on Mantra recovery, the result is she may lose this identity, because it may remove her auto attack/w/ then Q viability. It would basically bottleneck her methodology into 2 volley Q spam, which is a reduction of expression.

It basically turns her into a short range Zoe.

Something I did like in the previous Karma talk:

You mentioned that your Karma passive was going to activate on Large/Epic Monsters/Minions. That's a function not currently in the game, and I wouldn't mind that. Karma has a strong synergy with jungle minions already due to her R / W.

AVINII2/15/2019, 8:53:31 PM4 votes

Why not consider mechanical buffs for Aatrox instead? I think we already saw that straight power puffs do not work.

YumaS2Astral2/15/2019, 11:53:20 PM4 votes

Hey Meddler

What do you think of Fiddlesticks? Fiddlesticks

Your last big changes to him didn't seem to do what they were intended to do; to help him in the jungle. Instead they killed the viability of mid lane Fiddlesticks and made him OP as a support.

He is more bearable now after the nerfs, but do you think it is healthy? I mean, Fiddlesticks still isn't a good jungler, he is dead mid, the only place where he can go now is support. While this is not by itself a bad thing, I would rather have Fiddlesticks not be viable in only one lane, especially one that he wasn't intended to be played originally. (also I miss Fiddlesticks being viable mid).

Can you give some thoughts about him?

Zoli Ben2/15/2019, 5:15:06 PM4 votes

Hi Meddler, what do you think needs to be changed on Blitzcrank on Ezreal level VGU gameplay wise? Curious about what is viewed as wrong with him.

Rathar Dashing2/15/2019, 5:16:50 PM3 votes

What's happening with the Vi changes?

voice92/15/2019, 5:52:54 PM2 votes

Hey Meddler, any love for my favorite bird Azir?

Tin Obliterates2/15/2019, 5:44:39 PM2 votes

What buffs will Aatrox be getting, exactly?

Also, are there any plans to bring his two dashes back in some way?