Game Pacing and You

RiotFearless··1 votes·66,076 views

Fearless and Riot Boom Bear here! We wanted to talk a bit about how we’ve been thinking about game pacing and where we’re at right now.

Warning: This is going to get a bit long. We’ll have something better… formatted next year, but we wanted to talk about this earlier than later.

A major goal of our preseason changes was to make the game have clear and reasonable expectations on teams as to what they need to do to win. For a long time, some of the actions that were most effective at winning (starvation tactics) weren’t very intuitive or engaging for either team. Thus began our efforts to cut down on starvation and replace it with more interactive paths to victory.

Starvation actually has a few different permutations depending on the level of play, but in each case (by definition) it leads to long stalls in game progress. Both teams essentially stop taking meaningful action. Winning teams are happy to build a farm lead, gobble up safe objectives, and elude any risky team fights. Losing teams, on the other hand, have no choice but to slowly starve out, unsure of how to take action or attempt a comeback. We’ve been wanting to balance out these situations for a while now, but up until recently we didn’t have confidence that we’d be able to make the right changes while understanding their impact.

Enter Insights!

Over the past couple years, a group of researchers, analysts, and data scientists have been working toward getting a better understanding of game pacing, or the general flow and feel of the game. Game pacing, by the way, is a little different from game length, which is purely about the number of minutes a game takes to complete. When we say game pacing, we’re talking about the progression of a game from laning phase to mid game to late game.

We consider game pacing from a variety of perspectives and multiple methods, ranging from game server data, all the way to survey answers that let us understand how players feel. Both sides are important to consider, as a game that feels well-paced but is always getting stomped out in ~15 minutes is just as concerning as a game that has meaningful back-and-forths, but all players didn’t consider it close at all.

On the in-game data side, we’ve started to hone in on a way of thinking about pacing that we’re pretty happy with, so let’s take a look at it: think about your games on Summoner’s Rift. At any given time, one team has an advantage of some sort -- whether it’s in gold, experience, or CS. Given the size of this lead and how far you are through the game, there can be pretty large differences in how confident you are that one team will win. A team that’s up 5.5 k gold 10 minutes into a 20 minute game is almost certain to close it out, while a team that’s up a mere 500 gold 45 minutes into a 50 minute game is likely in a head-to-head sprint to the finish.

We’ve approached pacing by categorizing games into different classes based on: how early we’re (fairly) certain we know the winner. On one end, games that are decided early are “snowbally” or “stompy,” while games that aren’t decided until the very end have an “overtime” feel. Games that fall in the middle, where the outcome of the game becomes consistently more predictable as it progresses, are considered “standard.” The proportion of games that fall into each pacing bucket tells us quite a bit, and gives us a good sense of what we want to do if too many games are falling into any one category. It’s worth noting that having only standard games isn’t a desirable or intended game state. Teams that get super ahead should be able to close games out, while overtime nailbiters - where one fight seals the deal - are also awesome to have in moderation.

As we started using these tools to understand the current state of game pacing in League (and our ability to impact it), we set out to cut down on starvation tactics. More specifically, we wanted to ensure that the burden of winning a game stays on the winning team. This led us to changes like the biased minions waves that very slightly push into the losing team, doing two things. The winning teams get more chances to siege and meaningfully progress the game toward their victory. The other outcome is that the losing team has more access to minions, meaning that games slowly move toward equilibrium when winning teams get complacent. We layered this groundwork with some complementary tuning to gold income, tower durability, and yes, death timers, and we had a strong first attempt at improving game pacing.

When the first Preseason 2016 patch dropped in 5.22, actively monitoring game pacing (and length) was high on our list. In terms of length, the average game was a bit shorter in 5.22 -- about 1.5 minutes on average. This, in itself, isn’t necessarily a bad thing. When we looked at pacing, however, we noticed things were a little out of whack. Compared to 5.21, there were more “stompy” games. In short, games were being decided earlier than they had been, leading to more game time where the outcome was all but determined. A deeper dive showed us that both XP and gold (to a lesser extent) snowballing were the culprit. Our framework for game pacing allowed us to identify what was mucking up and dive deeper to find the cause. We adjusted the XP rewards from kills and shipped the minion changes, expecting the minions to either end stomps faster (thus removing the long painful wait for them to actually resolve) while helping losing teams access gold on the map.

When the data started to come back for 5.23, we saw some pretty encouraging things. Stompy games were down across the board while standard and overtime games picked up the slack. Although we’re still looking into what exactly is the “best” distribution of game types, this was definitely much closer. In 5.23, there were less stomps, closer games, and a larger proportion of competitive game time. Not bad.

This work isn’t done, but we wanted to let you all know where we were at, and how we got here. Thanks for reading!

Riot Boom Bear + Fearless

103 Comments

Usamin23 votes

honestly, i feel like this preseason is VERY snowball-y compared to previous patches. maybe i dunno what i'm talking about 'cause i'm at a lower mmr than most, but it feels like a large portion of my games either ends with my team getting a huge lead and ending the game at around 25 minutes, or the enemy team doing the same. i find it really hard to turn around games when players get ahead within the first 10-15 minutes of gameplay, and it really sucks, because i'd rather have more of those 40-50 minute neck-to-neck games where my gameplay decisions feel more impactful, rather than just destroying/getting destroyed by players back and forth for 20 games straight...

Riotboom bear14 votes

{quoted}

honestly, i feel like this preseason is VERY snowball-y compared to previous patches. maybe i dunno what i'm talking about 'cause i'm at a lower mmr than most, but it feels like a large portion of my games either ends with my team getting a huge lead and ending the game at around 25 minutes, or the enemy team doing the same. i find it really hard to turn around games when players get ahead within the first 10-15 minutes of gameplay, and it really sucks, because i'd rather have more of those 40-50 minute neck-to-neck games where my gameplay decisions feel more impactful, rather than just destroying/getting destroyed by players back and forth for 20 games straight...

Let's just begin here: I feel you.

When 5.22 dropped, my personal in-game experience felt pretty snowbally, and I know a lot of folks in the office felt the same way. We made a number of changes to address this (informed by both player sentiment and our pacing model), and managed to scale it back pretty effectively in 5.23. The work isn't done, but you're certainly not alone in feeling this way.

I think this also brings up a pretty important high-level point: although we focused pretty heavily on the technical/analytical side of how we think about pacing in this post, we also lean heavily on player sentiment to help us make good decisions about pacing. If all of our metrics for pacing are where we want them to be but folks think it feels like doodoo in-game, then we goofed. We're actively measuring player sentiment through a variety of channels to make sure the game feels exciting, rewarding, and competitive. This is another piece of valuable information (in addition to our analytics and our talented designers' expertise) to make the best decisions we can. In short, pacing decisions aren't made in a hard numbers vacuum.

lceman6 votes

Will you guys consider tuning back how death timers scale? Defending towers is almost impossible because everyone's dead for so long that we lose half our base from one mid game team fight and that feels really bad. This is also partly because outer towers are made of paper clips and some string

WillSummon4Food1 votes

yeah just played a game where around the 15 min mark we aced the team as they came to fight us at dragon turned around disregarded dragon and ended up taking 3 tower two in mid lane that we pushed and some damage on the inhib tower and one at top because of minion lanes

WillSummon4Food2 votes

I don't think death timers are the problem though i feel like turrets might as well be made of lumps of sugar in a typhoon

Earl Eulrich19 votes

and managed to scale it back pretty effectively in 5.23. The work isn't done, but you're certainly not alone in feeling this way.

So well, just played a 50min game that we were somewhat losing for the most part...but still we got 3 or 4 aces later on and all that i could do with it is push the wave back to mid (and i really focus on getting objectives if there´s a chance) after every ace. That really doesn´t seem ok...there´s no point in fighting for a comeback if there´s no chance to regain map control once your base is pressured, no matter how many fights you ace (except 5-0ing them, but htat´s unrealistic in competitive games).

So i don´t know if you have that data...but it might be worth looking in how much objectives losing teams that win fights gain currently...especially compared to before the patch.

Also...vision just sucks if your jungler doesn´t feature a sightstone, which is 90%of the times in SoloQ. It seems you really balanced that soly around master/competitive atm, leaving everyone else in the dark (which heavily supports snowballing).

AMYS GRAVE8 votes

So i donßt now if you have that data...but it might be worth looking in how much objectives losing teams that win fights gain currently...especially compared to before the patch.

This ^ even winning teamfights when behind doesn't net you anything meaningful because you can't push objectives when all three minion waves are pushing against you.

Slodancr6 votes

I agree with this sentiment. Patch 5.22 introduced an aggression to the game that I had never seen. I have been playing since late season 2, and this preseason has been the biggest, hardest adjustment for me yet. In fact, I have temporarily abandoned Summoners Rift. The game seems geared to high level players, now more so than ever. I am disappointed, to say the least. This was an enjoyable game for me and my friends to play socially. Those days are gone, I'm afraid. We would get on and play as a group 2-3 times a week. Due to the changes involved in this preseason, that has changed to 2-3 times a month, amd then only ARAM. If we're going to be subjected to nonstop teamfighting, and no passive farming time. why not just play the Abyss? The aggression is the same, so why not contain it to one lane? The social aspect is gone.

AMYS GRAVE12 votes

For a long time, some of the actions that were most effective at winning (starvation tactics) weren’t very intuitive or engaging for either team.

If removing all the farm and neutral objectives isn't a viable and rewarding option the only way to keep the enemy down is to kill them, and getting killed over and over again doesn't feel good. If you don't want starvation tactics to be a thing any more then what is the behaviour you are replacing it with. The starvation tactics for predation tactics shift is not a healthy one.

More specifically, we wanted to ensure that the burden of winning a game stays on the winning team.

By giving the winning team the control over how a game plays out you are removing the agency of the losing team. This will ALWAYS lead to games feeling stompy because there are no correct moves for the losing team. Before when you were being starved out you could farm and take any uncontested objectives. Now that the minions auto-push it is harder to take the unattended top turret while they are at dragon because you have to push the wave out first, slow pushes are harder to build, and they take too long to reach the objective. The tactics for coming back from losing games have been removed, and as long as that is the case games will feel stopmy.

ZT Xperimentor5 votes

Not to mention turrets are even weaker than last season; which means tower dives at 10 minutes in, are even more consistently possible at 5 minutes in. And they do so little damage that squishy carrys and assassins can out tank them. You're spot on and I'd like to see riot address it.

19019219_DEL4 votes

Yes. When Vayne can tower diver at 8 minutes, something is wrong. They have good ideas. But the implementation has been off target. I think they could solve some things by increasing tower damage and scale back the minion wave effect.

19019219_DEL4 votes

This is absolutely true. That last five games with the new patch have been stomp-outs. Once you get to a certain point, it's impossible to come back. I had a full build ahead of anyone and I was struggling to keep back the minions, nevertheless the champions.

Garrotte10 votes

While this isn't 100% applicable, I wrote a critique on how the game currently feels, and one of the issues I feel is being ignored when it comes to how games feel snowbally.

This originally started as a critique of the minion push changes, but while I was writing that I realized that my complains weren't about the changes themselves but rather the systems(or lack of) surrounding them.

League of Legends has a problem. League of Legends is a game purely about playing offensively. Now we need to be clear, there are two sets of definitions that could come up, and the distinction between the two needs to be made. The first is the pairing of Aggressive vs Defensive. This essentially boils down to just pushing vs farming. The second if Offensive vs Defensive, where we give the word Defensive its second definition. This is the difference between making aggressive moves to elongate the game, vs making aggressive moves to shorten the game.

There is currently not one system in the game where a team can preemptively make an aggressive move in order elongate a game. Right now the methods for doing so are the same as the methods for closing a game out. Don't lose towers. Get farm. Take neutrals. Ward your flanks. From Bronze 5 to SK Telecom, these are the methods you have in order to not lose.

Its because of this that Morde's Dragon naturally had to be oppressive, and minion push changes had to favor winning teams. There is not a backbone of infrastructure that would enable any of these on their own to stand alone as a method to protect teams that want to opt into playing defensive. I'm using these two cases as examples not because they are the only ones I can find, but because they are two completely separate cases that have literally no gameplay interaction with each other.

The natural alternative is that Morde could be rewarded not for winning a dragon fight, but for marking the drag regardless of which team takes the objective. Suddenly, the juggernaut can chose to support a team that wants to scale with him, rather than lose access to his kit because his team's jungler wants to farm. In its current state, Morde's ult only rewards him for being on a team that wants to secure dragons early. This is completely independent of what lane he is in. More importantly, the reward he gets for achieving one global objective is a tool that allows him to secure more objectives. Teams that want to scale are obligated to take bad fights, because if they don't they're conceding much more than just a single dragon. Imagine if Tahm Kench only had access to the bonus damage on his ult after securing dragon. You'd feel neutered if you couldn't take the objective.

The minion push changes mirror the same issues with Morde's dragon. In order to activate them, you need to have both an XP lead, and a tower advantage. Prior to the changes, in order to capitalize on this, a conscious decision had to be made to prep waves in order to take other objectives. Now, in a move that has curiously been describe by the design team as "rewarding defensive play" by having waves naturally push further into the losing team's side of the map, a winning player has easier access to additional objectives such as Towers, Dragons, and Heralds. If you're a losing player who for example gets forced off of a wave, not only are you going to naturally have to try harder to get waves pushed out for you to leave lane, but you have a harder time reaching the rest of your team without risking losing the gold to your own tower.

With these examples in mind, lets discuss the greater issues at play here, which is that teams do not have a method to put resources into enabling scaling. If you pick a teamcomp that naturally falls behind early, you can't invest your early resources into preventing snowballing. This is different than choosing not to opt into negative situations. As an example of what something that enables this would look like, lets imagine an item called a Ward Trap. It would cost something like 50-75 gold, and would count as a pink ward. If you place it in a bush, and an enemy wards that bush after the trap was set, it would destroy the ward and turn into an untargetable pink ward for 180 seconds. Of course, if you walk into the bush you could see/destroy the trap, but that carries an inherent amount of risk. And if you fail to catch a ward, not only do you lose the gold from buying the trap, but you lose the inventory slot and truevision of the pink ward. Ohmwrecker could function the same way, by having stats that enable someone being pushed in to collect gold as they leave, but of course having to invest into potentially poor early game stats. Systems like this give teams that want to take a proactive defensive step a method of doing so, and force extra risk onto the offensive team, but by delaying their own goals.

Some of the coolest moments in League come from when teams who made two different, but valid, decisions clash, but right now systems that enable this are being removed, not added.

I'd love to hear your thoughts on this, because I can respect that it may be an intentional design decision not to include these things, even if its something I'm in favor of.

SoundChaosDebug9 votes

Outer towers are almost useless they die so fast

Riotboom bear7 votes

{quoted}

Outer towers are almost useless they die so fast

Outer towers were definitely weaker than we wanted in 5.22. They received some love (or... uh.. not, depending on if you're diving) in 5.23, so they should be a bit stronger. Interested to hear if they still feel weak!

Lucifer10 votes

feel adequately strong against squishy characters, but it definitely feels like tanks are completely ignoring turrets.

AMYS GRAVE3 votes

They seem stronger, but anyone who can drop turret aggro (fizz vlad etc... or teams juggling) still gets the damage scaling of the turrets reset. These champions can take double the turret shots of anyone else because the turret damage isn't ramping the way it does for the rest of the champions.

Sire Hippington2 votes

Though thats not a problem of preseason, as the towerdamage/rampup wasn't changed but only their durabillity.

I think in terms of tankiness, turrets are quite good right now, but they still offer to little protection early on. Towerdiveing pre 6 min 1v1 should be very risky even if you are ahead and snowball, but all you need to do is beeing sure that the opposeing jungler isn't nearby(and, well, not bring in a legendary fail). This has been that way since ever, and i never really liked it(unless i dived my self ofc)

RiotPhreak10 votes

Mathematically, Outer Turrets are more durable than they were in 5.21 at all points of the game.

l Helios l4 votes

I know some players will avoid taking the tower in an effort to get more gold from the laner and the cs in the lane without having to extend beyond the outer and risk being ganked far from their own tower. Since the towers are more durable, it's harder for the minions to take it on their own without the aid of the champion. To my question: Do you think this has contributed to lane abuse after a lane has "won" lane? Jungler interference not necessarily being accounted for here. The term "abuse" is one I've heard from multiple high elo players, and one I've used before as well, so that's why I use that term.

Sire Hippington2 votes

That fully depends on wether or not fortification reduces damage pre or post %-damageitigation

Larry9 votes

Well, if the turrets were a real threat, people would buy item 3056. So apart from the math, people dont consider turrets a big threat. More advanced players dont even use any summoner spells to get away safe. Maybe consider the option of aggro changing depending who dealt the most damage. That is the defensive point of view from the turret. It's sole purpose is to defend.

Earl Eulrich8 votes

When the data started to come back for 5.23, we saw some pretty encouraging things. Stompy games were down across the board while standard and overtime games picked up the slack. Although we’re still looking into what exactly is the “best” distribution of game types, this was definitely much closer. In 5.23, there were less stomps, closer games, and a larger proportion of competitive game time. Not bad.

would be interessting to know if you sort that data into elos (i´d suspect bronze to behave rather different from master) - and do you put more attention to premade 5 (which can abuse the mechanics to close out far better than soloQ can) or SoloQ?

Bard Βard Bard8 votes

I tried to make appear how the game's pace changed since the preseason, from my point of view. I will be referencing to the very early game as the period of the game where no aggressive behavior can be engaged except jungle invades (you don't see 2v2 fights that lead to a kill at level 1 every game on botlane).

Season V:

  1. Very early game: 0-5 minutes
  2. Early game: 5-20 minutes
  3. Mid game: 20-35/40 minutes
  4. Late game: >35/40 minutes

Preseason VI:

  1. Very early game: 0-5 minutes
  2. Early game: 5-15 minutes
  3. Mid game: 15-25 minutes
  4. Late game: >25 minutes

It honnestly really feels that way. It seems like the mid game period doesn't even exist anymore because the snowballing as become so important.

The new snowballing mechanics are responsible of two negatively game impacting things.

First is: This new mechanic makes everyone wants to end the game earlier. Ganks come sooner, teamfights start sooner, and pushing as a team happens sooner, those leaving the loosing team with no choice but turtling against harder to push minions.

Second is: The current state of the game isn't "Take an advantage and try to make something of it" anymore. You don't have to think about what to do in order to really take the advantage over the ennemy team after taking the dragon. Now, it is "Take an advantage. Here is a little bonus for you, and here another one. Now go snowball dem in da face.".

I am obviously exaggerating a bit, these changes are of a small scale, but they are sufficient to allow a team who's done a 4v2 fight botlane at level 3-4 to push a tower, take the dragon, and now play with the assurance of the minions pushing a bit more in their favor. It could be okay if it was a counterable tactic. But in the current state of the game, you can't even prevent the ennemies from diving 4v2 botlane (even if you kill one of them, they'll still take your tower and/or go drake).

I am sure those changes in making the games more snowball-aimed can be enjoyable, but they won't until a nice - as strong - strategy can counter it.

19019219_DEL2 votes

First is: This new mechanic makes everyone wants to end the game earlier. Ganks come sooner, teamfights start sooner, and pushing as a team happens sooner, those leaving the loosing team with no choice but turtling against harder to push minions.

Yes. I don't know why they want to make the games shorter. I'm gonna go out on a limb and say this; "Because the Asian culture promotes patience, and other countries are more 'satisfy your desires now', they have a serious advantage for the late game types. I think that's why they are trying to bring it home. (Like I said, going out on a limb).

Retillin7 votes

Why not just increase the gains from Dragon? Make it a very contestable at 3 stacks instead of 5. Right now a few of the rewards for taking Dragon feels like you are just trying to get to 5 stacks instead of caring about the boost that was given.

Johr Dinh2 votes

{quoted}

Why not just increase the gains from Dragon? Make it a very contestable at 3 stacks instead of 5. Right now a few of the rewards for taking Dragon feels like you are just trying to get to 5 stacks instead of caring about the boost that was given.

Yeah the games i've been in lately, no one bothers with Dragon until like 20 mins in, and even then they just get the first stack for stat buff then forget about it unless they're just super close to it after a teamfight. Most of my games lately have been all about kills and turret siege with no emphasis on Drags...or Herald either honestly.

warpenguin5557 votes

Can the minion pushing turn off when somebody gets baron? when the wining team has both baron and super minions pushing down the enemy, the enemy feels like they cant do anything about it

patmax176 votes

Hi!

Thanks for the interesting article, it's always nice to know some of behind-the-screen works :)

A few questions, if you want to answer them 1 How has average game duration changed in 5.22 and 5.23? 2 Do you analyze both ranked and normal, or only one? 3 How about surrendering? Did you take it into account in your analysis? Did surrender behaviour change in the last few patches?

Riotboom bear6 votes

{quoted}

Hi!

Thanks for the interesting article, it's always nice to know some of behind-the-screen works :)

A few questions, if you want to answer them 1 How has average game duration changed in 5.22 and 5.23? 2 Do you analyze both ranked and normal, or only one? 3 How about surrendering? Did you take it into account in your analysis? Did surrender behaviour change in the last few patches?

Thanks for the questions! I'll take a stab at them.

  1. Average game length dropped about 1.5-2 minutes in 5.22, and remained relatively stable in 5.23

  2. That's a really good question, and the answer is it really depends on what the problem space and our goals are. Normals is valuable as it's the way a huge number of players generally experience the game (myself included). There's also the added bonus of there being a TON of normal games to grab and analyze. Normal games tend to be really good when looking at high-level overall game trends, and things that aren't super deeply rooted in assuming players are all-in on being hardcore competitive. Ranked is basically the flip side of that coin. It's a smaller number of games (but still huge), and there's the assumption that it's more of a competitive proving ground (as folks are generally more willing to experiment with new champions, builds, and comps in normals and TB). For pacing specifically, it's pretty important that all matchmade SR games are in generally the right spot, so we consider both.

  3. We've just started taking a deeper dive into surrenders. In 5.22 we saw a small but meaningful increase in 20 minute surrenders (as well as many more games just naturally ending earlier, making a 20 minute surrender more attractive). We're still figuring out the best way to approach analyzing surrenders, and thus far it's leaned heavily on some basic metrics around timing and frequency of surrenders, as well as player perception about surrenders and general competitiveness of games.

AMYS GRAVE11 votes

I despise surrenders from both ends. That being said this pre-season i have not had a single game that has been even enough to go to 40 minutes, with most games either ending early, or having 20-25 min surrenders. So in short i haven't had a fun game in months because of the pacing of the game. Glad to hear you're working on it though so thanks for that.

51656462DEL17 votes

I don't like surrenders either, I like comebacks. And I feel cheated out of those. I feel like if a team has an advantage, they should force the fights because they have more chances of winning even if performing worse (they're fed, even if slightly). If they're not able to do and/or exploit that, the system shouldn't reward them, and enable to keep snowballing savagely. They haven't earned it, I believe. In the current meta, if you lost lane phase, you're screwed. Before, you had to tread more lightly, knowing that on equal terms the other team would win.

Cromagnum6 votes

"Over the past couple years, a group of researchers, analysts, and data scientists" .......................... So Phreak, Jatt and Kobe

LatticeGrimoire6 votes

"Game Pacing and You" The game is a giant snowball deal with it because that's what looks better on LCS*[slayer-jinx-wink]*

Slodancr8 votes

Therein lies the rub. With the advent of professional gaming, and LoL's status as top dog, it seems the game has become targeted to higher-level players. My 40+ hours a week playing this game has become 10-15 because it's not fun anymore.

ZT Xperimentor6 votes

Spot on; I used to play over 10 games a day back in season 1 & 2, but after season 4 I barely play 5 games a week. All for the same reason.

19019219_DEL5 votes

I agree and I play for one day a week and get in about 5 games and then I remember how much the game frustrates me now.

19019219_DEL5 votes

I totally agree. I'm in the same boat.

51656462DEL16 votes

In my opinion, this should not be true at all, both because I don't think massive snowballs are fun to watch, and also because** in the LCS or other competitive play they were ALREADY able to exploit their advantages to snowball**. Both this summer and last Worlds had many games closed at min 30 (short) because when a team were winning, they managed to press their advantage. In fact, I think that they're gonna have to fix the current snowbally state of things for competitive play, cause if not it's reaaaaally gonna be boring.

Just what I think. Love the image btw, didn't know you could put this ;) [slayer-pantheon-thumbs]

LatticeGrimoire2 votes

I completely agree, I like LCS much more when it is neck and neck, but most people can not sit still that long...

19019219_DEL4 votes

I think if the game is interesting, it can capture our attention. It's the buildup that matters. The latest games are too short. There's really no strategy. Womp, chomp, stomp. Oh, my popcorn isn't don't microwaving yet.... ;)

Solidair35 votes

I have a question!

As the number of peoppe playing together increases (by yourself vs with 1 friend, 2 friends, etc.) Does pacing tend to go faster? Or, since the system tries to match up similar teams, does pacing not change much at all?

Total Eclipse5 votes

I have mixed feelings about the new minions, so I won't say too much about them. There are three big things on my mind with the latest patches. Teleport, homeguard, and death timers. The death timers are just too long mid-game. Around 30 minutes, I cannot even count the number of times I have had 5 seconds to spawn while the enemy polishes off the nexus, and they only have one or two guys left from a brutal but strong teamfight. Why shouldn't defenders get one last chance to defend their base, after getting wiped in a desperate teamfight? A good team on of offense can take 2 inhibs and use that insane pressure to dominate the map into a pure beatdown. I want the overstay to become a thing again. Teams should have to question if they are getting cocky, going in for the killing blow, instead of annihilating the entire base JUST as everybody respawns. 50 minute games are different- killing the nexus while everyone is dead for another 30 seconds feels fine. But it's when you need those 5 extra seconds that you feel so cheated out of a proper defense. I feel homeguard is throwing things off. It seems too good, and this potentially gives the winning team (team that needs to get out there and apply pressure) too much ability to get to work. I believe making homeguard a dragon reward, say 3rd drag, would make it much more valuable and interesting as it gives you TIME, as opposed to mediocre stat gains. Lastly I want to talk about how bad teleport is right now. I main top and mid, but recently I have a huge preference for mid because I feel like I cannot watch my tower and help my team at the same time. Being stuck with a 20-40 second timer on my teleport when I NEED that wave-and-a-half top has become a regular thing. I'm absolutely disgusted with the spell, butt I have to run it because it is entirely essential for life on the tropical island that is top lane. A level advantage in lane has always been a big thing, and right now it is that sort of punishment that a top laner must accept if he wants to assist his team for a dragon or countergank. The worst part is that after running your ass back to lane, the thing comes off cooldown and you have no use for it for the next 2 minutes or so. Please bring back the reduced cooldown for casts on towers, and potentially balance this out by increasing the cooldown to a ward or minion so the late game pressure isn't op. Do it for me, because I main Ryze <3

51656462DEL15 votes

Woah, THIS. Homeguard as 3rd dragon reward or something sounds pretty nice. I hope someone up there hears you. I think dragon rewards are a bit obsolete. And yeah, Homeguard is too useful to get for free, at least let them spend some of that money.

Summonerrr 14 votes

I have a question. Did you guys intend for sandbagging teammates to be harder to solocarrry with these snowballseason changes? Because before if one or two people fed early and I was playing a carry there was a decent chance that we could pull through and turn it around.

Now if one, or heaven forbid two, people feed the game is pretty much decided. If that's intended, then it's a pretty dumb move, and here's why:

League is a team game, but for the VAST majority of competitive players in ranked (>95%), they play with people they've never met before and will likely never meet again. In a game where teamwork is the single most important determining factor in victory. Do you see how illogical making snowballing the end-all be-all in a 5v5 meta is? It only takes one person to screw it up for the other four, who may be competent, calm, and collected in their division.

The fact that one person has so much power to affect others with their negative performance(logically speaking, anything more than 20% is too much) is ludicrous and backwards. If I and the majority of my team do well in lane, teamfights, objectives, duels, and in general show superior skill and performance to all of the other opponents, we should win. Period. That's how competition works, the better competitors advance.

I'm fine with snowball meta if I can get a group of friends together and accomplish competing in it in a cohesive and communicative manner.

You know, like in the new champ select thing you guys still haven't finished? Can you say cart ahead of the horse?

If the goal was to run the playerbase horse over with the meta cart, you guys sure did a hell of a good job.

51656462DEL13 votes

I totally agree, though don't be so hard on Rito, I think we're all sure they're doing their best. Here's what I posted above, and I could add al that you say, because it's in low ELO where lanes feed the hardest.

"I know that you'll look into it and such, but I wanted to point out something, my little grain of sand to the discussion. Even if premades are much less common than solo Q in number, I feel that the BEST part of League is teamplay. I enjoy playing with my friends in a Ranked 5vs5, or just plain 5vs5, or just premades when 5 of us can't make it. Not only that, I also enjoy being able to watch competitive teamplay, I enjoy high ELO spectating, I enjoy watching streams and youtube League. And I feel that pacing is more of a communication thing than just something inherent to the game state. It's the team that initiates a fight when and where they want it (and then has clear what it wants to take from that fight) that can capitalize.

I know this might not be something you haven't already thought of, but what I mean is: If you're guiding yourselves from the point of view "we want to take into account the greatest number of games possible and that's why we can't pay as much attention to 5v5 or premades", I think that low ELO players conform the "most important community" (as in, greatest number). Well, I think that what a winning game should reward is the ability to teamplay, even in soloQ, and that even if you won all 3 lanes, you already have your gold advantage (kills or farm, both equally important) to pressure. **If a team cannot exploit that in teamfights it's probably because they're not making the right decisions, they don't know how to play on a greater scale. **I don't wanna support a system where a team who cannot make good decisions to close out a game (such as in low ELO) is patched by the fact that when you win a fight and you get a 4v2, all your lanes are pushing so badly you can almost certainly get one or two inhibs. Seems like too much of a game breaker, especially when the game was 10-17 in kills or something like that, not something you feel as a stomp.

I dunno,** I feel like this system favors an unnatural snowball in lane in low ELOs that was not always visible in late game for a reason, and that's because they might not be better at teamfighting**. So... give me your thoughts, tried bolding the most important ideas."

IceShield124 votes

Personally, I would think that a game like League would benefit from having a split of standard and overtime games, with rare occasions of snowballs. I play League to have fun with friends, make new friends, and test my worth against my opponents. I feel the current games are WAY too short to do any of these. More and more times I try to talk about LoL with my friends, I see it becoming less of a fun, competitive game, and falling into the MMO trap where, instead of talking about the lore or the characters, everyone's talking about how to be more efficient, how to win faster, how to be the best. I have no problems with this, but League, just like Dota and Smite, is a game. It's supposed to be fun. I should feel like this: [slayer-jinx-wink] But more often, I feel like this: [zombie-nunu-bummed] or [slayer-jinx-unamused]

IceShield124 votes

AND NO, I do not mean that as an attack on the eSports competitive side. I mean that as saying that everything League is SHOULD be able to exist in a way where everyone playing is having fun. That's why we don't say we "do League" or "I'm gonna go League," but "I want to PLAY League."

Puppet33r3 votes

In my experience half of my games are super stompy, where someone gets just one kill and suddenly his lane opponent cant even hide under turret after lvl6. And the other half takes forever: 40-50 minutes of people dancing around too afraid to engage because no matter how tanky you are you will die very fast if 2 or more carries focus you...those usually end by either someone getting impatient and engaging while the rest of his team is not ready or someone getting caught somewhere he shouldn't be. None are all that satisfying. In my opinion, one of the ways to rectify that would be to transfer some of those %dmg increases from masteries into objectives like, say, drake who is kinda useless at this point. So that even if you lose lane you can still make an actual comeback with objectives.

19019219_DEL3 votes

I would like to add my vote to all those who say this season has snowball issues. I've seen massive waves of minions get built up and they come flowing like a river towards your turret. If you're in the middle of a push you have to abandon and try to stop it. This disrupts gameplay like nothing else. I have never seen minions waves like this before. I feel like I'm in the FlowWave testing facility.

Currently I have been on both sides of the wave. Where it works for me and works against me. The sad effect so far is that I've had games lost because a minion wave pushes through two towers while I'm dead. This is definitely a detractor from gameplay.

I think a normal minion wave of twenty is okay. But I've seen waves that number close to fifty. I don't know about you, but a wave that big is a unique challenge for a lvl 12 champ.

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