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Quick Gameplay Thoughts: December 13

RiotMeddler··1 votes·60,646 views

Hi all,


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These posts will often contain talk about future work we're doing, or planning to do, that isn't yet guaranteed to ship. The nature of the work could change or, depending on what we discover, projects mentioned may get put delayed or even stopped. If you'd like to see a Tweet whenever a new one of these posts goes up: https://twitter.com/RiotMeddler

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RNG - Input Randomness versus Output Randomness

Been seeing RNG get talked about more recently, which makes sense given recent release of both Zoe and Kleptomancy. Figured it was a good time to talk through some of our thoughts a bit more. For anyone unfamiliar with the term RNG stands for random number generation/generator and is often used as a shorthand for 'randomness'.

To start things off, we believe RNG, if done well, can have a place in competitive games. We think some forms of randomness are good fits for a game like LoL, and some aren't. Appropriate use of RNG allows players to show their adaptability, adding another type of skill test in addition to the others already present in the game (mechanical skill, coordination with team mates, etc). It can create unexpected situations that test quick thinking, allow unusual actions and can be really exciting. On the other hand if done badly it can remove meaning from player skill and decide games unfairly.

We feel one of the common traits of competitively appropriate RNG is whether that randomness occurs as an input to decisions or an output. Inputs are things that you make decisions around, starting conditions that vary but that then play out based on player actions. Elemental Dragons are an example of that, where the type of dragon is randomly determined but it's then up to each team how they want to respond to it. Inputs benefit from being well telegraphed so players can make decisions around them and should be fair to both teams. They can be a way to incorporate the benefits of randomness while ensuring that how you respond to the situation is what determines the game outcome, not what situation was created in the first place. Examples in other games include things like randomized starting points in Starcraft or map generation in Civilization.

With output randomness by contrast it's RNG itself, rather than decisions made after it, that often decide a situation's outcome. E.g. a 50/50 chance to destroy a target or take significant damage yourself. It's certainly possible to play around the risk of output randomness of course (e.g. trying to only opt in to risky situations when you can accept the risk of negative outcomes or adjusting your play in response to a random occurrence). Generally though with output randomness luck has a really significant impact. That can be ok if the randomness in question occurs so many times it's almost guaranteed to even out (a 50/50 chance repeated 100 times for example). With infrequent interactions though you tend to get a very luck influenced experience.

We've avoided or removed major sources of output randomness in LoL generally and it's unlikely we'll add new ones to competitive LoL modes. Crit's a notable exception however. It does have some mitigating factors, adding risk/uncertainty to otherwise very predictable situations, and evening out in impact at a high crit %, at least against tanky champs. It's often a negative experience though, deciding more fights through luck than it should, particularly in lane when players have low crit chances. At some point we'll work on crit, change it to a system that keeps some of its benefits while reducing the 'that was bullshit, I did everything right and still lost' feeling. Not sure when that will be, it'd be a good change, but also a large project, and competes with work on things like other item overhauls, improvements to runes, smaller champion updates etc.

Jumping back to randomness, some situations will present a mixture of both input and output randomness at once. A particularly good example of that comes from PUBG, with the loot crates dropped by plane at random locations that are then highly telegraphed for players to compete over. Poker's another good example, with both what you get in a hand and how you approach the game having enormous impact on how the game goes. In both cases it helps that high degrees of randomness are not just a tolerated part of the game, but major drawcards, so blending skill and luck makes a lot of sense.


RNG in LoL

Getting out of our general thoughts on RNG and talking about specific cases in LoL more then:

  • Elemental Dragons - Highly telegraphed and equally available to both teams. Bonuses are designed so that they may change the way you play/what you're team's strong at, but won't be useless for any team and, if a team's particularly strong with one of them (e.g. split push with Cloud or poke with Ocean) it should also be good against that team. Favorable dragon spawns early game can sometimes given a strong early team an advantage. We've repeatedly seen teams overcome even things like triple Infernal drakes however, so feel even the extreme outcomes are within the bounds of appropriateness.

  • Crit - Adds some unpredictability to combat that's valuable but overall has too much power in the hands of luck, rather than player response. Few more thoughts above.

  • Plants - There's some randomness in when/where plants spawn, though within a tight range of constraints (very limited range of possible spawn points and limited spawn windows). There's enough randomness that plants can create some unexpected play and test adaptability on the fly at a more tactical level than the strategic level dragons tend to impact. You'll know ahead of time that they could exist, what their effects will be, and it's how they're used that matters. Some players do dislike them, Blast Cone in particular. Overall however from what we've seen, including through survey data, they're well liked overall and we think they’re doing good things for the game too.

  • Kleptomancy - Somewhat randomized loot create a series of decisions to make around what to do with your new stuff and a bunch of exciting moments. Excessive impact of randomness is controlled by a large sample size (getting a lot of loot over the course of the game), controls on which items you can get at any point in time based off what you've recently got and how far into the game it is (no Elixir of Skill early on for example). Randomness on gold bags is also somewhat mitigated by players being able to choose to opt out of the randomized reward. Giving up another keystone also helps opponents respond to early spikes in power especially (lacking a combat keystone for direct trades).

  • Zoe - Occurrences of randomness are clearly telegraphed, with minions are marked and the abilities they drops guaranteed to spawn away from Zoe, ensuring it takes a bit more time for her to pick them up. Their impact is based off how Zoe uses whatever she picks up, not the moment something drops (exception: if Zoe instantly picks up and uses something with immediate combat impact). Yet to be seen whether we've got the appropriate items, drop rates, drop positions etc right though. That's a subject of some debate internally, especially around Gunblade and TP. Certainly creates some really interesting and creative moments, impact can sometimes feel heavily influenced by what just dropped in early laning and just before roaming.

  • Bard - Chime locations have a fair bit of randomness in them, there are still a lot of constraints on them though behind the scenes. They won't spawn too far away from Bard (especially early game) and won't spawn in terrible places like directly under enemy towers. They're around long enough it's more a 'when will I get this' than 'can I get this' question. Their timing's also tightly controlled, both in terms of when they appear and how many will be available each game. Overall they serve well to give flexibility and a bit of unpredictability to Bard's roaming, making it a more interesting experience, without luck deciding Bard's overall impactful much.

For some further thoughts on a related topic it's also well worth checking out the video Dev Diary we put out on Variance last year if you haven't already seen it:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5U1Gcf8l8yY


Some 8.1 changes also on PBE

We've got a number of changes going out in patch 7.24b shortly. There are also a number of balance changes on the PBE at present though that won't be in that patch and are tentatively expected to be in patch 8.1 (early January). We're holding those changes because they need more time in testing and/or are need to be done in a way that's not possible through a micro patch (which 7.24b is, even if it'll have patch notes, normal messaging etc). Some of those changes:

  • Buff to Brand's passive damage
  • Nerf to Heimer's RQ damage
  • Buffs to Olaf's base AD, W attack speed, E CD
  • Xerath mana cost up
  • Forbidden Idol changes
  • Predator buff

Grasp of the Undying

Quick update on this. After testing changes to Grasp where some of its power was changed to provide ramping AP/AD to help it also serve various champs without sufficient keystone choice at present we've concluded that's not the right way to solve that problem. Disruption to existing Grasp users, and degree that approach changed the identity of Grasp, both being problems. Not surprising, and something we figured was a significant risk going into testing, but worth investigation, given if we had found a way to make it work it would have allowed us to improve things for those champs quicker than we otherwise could.

We'll be leaving Grasp as is and looking to make a new Keystone instead. It's likely, though not guaranteed, that will also be in the Resolve tree. Release timing, assuming we find something that should be shipped, is uncertain. Unlikely to be in January however, given the holiday break coming up takes out some work time.

320 Comments

DarkPh0enix11 votes

Any updates on Rengar and/or Garen?

RiotMeddler24 votes

We'll be doing a bit of work on Rengar soon, most likely early January just after the break.

Nothing planned for Garen.

xShiNjiNx4 votes

What kind of work, do you have any little bit of insight you can give? We would really appreciate it :)

RiotMeddler13 votes

Got an idea, want to make sure it's what we're doing before making any promises though, especially given number of different changes Rengar's been through over the years.

ArdentCensored3 votes

PapaBless

Riot are finally gonna try to resurrect Rengar.

Please communicate better about it from the start tho, the last rework we couldn't vocalize our utter contempt for until it was forced onto us.

xShiNjiNx2 votes

Thanks for the reply, means a lot to me. And thanks even more for spending time on Rengar. I hope its a homerun.

kargish4 votes

RETURN OF THE SAVAGERY!!

yung che15 votes

Please please please, on the behalf of all the people who loved the high-apm/high-adrenaline gameplay of old rengar, please give us back just a normal auto reset on q.

We don't mind if we can't oneshot much anymore, its just the old feel and interesting mechanics having an auto reset brought are so amazing/

Thank you so much for looking at rengar again. <3 <3 <3

ComfortablyNumb64 votes

This^^.

redniwediS2 votes

Do you think Garen is in a good spot at the moment, or are you just paying attention to champions who need more immediate help?

sushixan2 votes

Meddler i hope u see this . ive been playing for 4 years in different acc . but i always wanted to talk to u . so wut do u think about reverting his Q . ppl might think but that means all his dmg will come from 1 source but thats whats happending now with his R . before u needed combos and tiamat now u just need a R or a mouse . u get me :P . i feel like rengar was more skillfull now its just easier to play and 1 shot . in my opinion rengars rework was a lazy atempt or fixing him , but i know u guys can fix everything . thank u meddler and gl on life and everything . bye :) Rengar

ModEchoing11 votes

With how certain champions are being nerfed because of their synergies with certain runes, I'm afraid that the diversity of runes available to each champion is going to vanish by making the rune in question also the only rune that champion can run. Ezreal with Kleptomancy is the biggest example - because of his use case with Kleptomancy, ALL of his options are nerfed because of the Q nerf, but that still leaves Kleptomancy as the best rune for him.

Is this also a concern shared by the team? Is there a way to work around this to preserve the rune diversity available to champions?

Urthor10 votes

I think Riot has really gone off the handle with the input vs output RNG doctrine and honestly it's gone from being a game design concept fundamentally supporting good ideas to a fudge supporting bad ones.

For a start, the drake RNG isn't input RNG where players react because of the divide of champ select. Teams can't draft knowing the value of the drake that spawns, and teams are being significantly advantaged and disadvantaged when they draft a comp that has superior drake secure into rng. The value of the drake's isn't close to being equal across the board ATM and that's a massive problem, in pro play and out of pro play. With so much variance in the expected return of a comp that secures drake's, it's very common to see pro games significantly influenced by the spawning of cloud drake's, to the detriment of the team that has drafted drake priority.

Second, kleptomania/Zoe isn't "okay" RNG, the overwhelming reaction of the player community is that it's just bad for the game RNG and is a negative. There isn't an excuse for the unpredictable power spikes which ruin the risk reward trade off when building a lane, being forced to over concede advantage to Zoe to guard against the worst RNG is a poker like level of mindgames that had no place in league. It ruins fair laning vs her if you have to take actions you know will be punished if she licks out in rng but are still the correct risk/reward to win, and vice versa.

Finally, Kayne. Kayne's transformations are a significant source of RNG and frustration to players. Junglers can't choose the lanes they gank, usually factors involving the champs and skill levels of the other 9 players means the best way to help their team is an overwhelmingly obvious decision which dictates their pathing, and that means getting red or blue form is mostly a matter of luck. This is a source of enormous frustration with the red blue power differential, and isn't being recognised as a source of random luck elements in league. Jungler pathing isn't a choice, there's always one correct solution for it, and disrupting that solution to get red lane feels like the most awful trade off.

These are all way more important than the plant RNG in league, and Riot is currently excusing them as okay afaik instead of putting them on the long term to be fixed when there is time list, which they should be.

Kyunsei8 votes

@Meddler

Any thoughts on Tryndamere ?

ImaginesTigers7 votes

Out of interest: are the champions who are lacking that keystone (Camille, juggernauts) really champions who want to invest in the Resolve tree? I feel significantly worse without that attack speed, or the attack damage. High-ELO Camille mains seems to be choosing Comet right now because they prefer the AD they get from that tree.

Thoughts on that new keystone's place and whether it really fits the champions you're aiming to help? What are those champions?

RiotMeddler3 votes

They're not necessarily champs who'll want to be in resolve all the time, current thinking though is that they will want to be there sometimes and should have a keystone that meets their needs better than Grasp does though.

We'll be doing some analysis today on exactly what we want to provide, for who, and how, now that we've decided to go with something independent of Grasp. My inclination's that it'll be a keystone for tanky, or at least somewhat tanky, damage dealers (not tanks) with a sustained damage pattern on both auto attacks and abilities. That's just an estimate at this point though.

Corriandr6 votes

What about Skirmishers that relied on Fervor but go more glass cannon? People like Fiora, Riven, and Yasuo who currently don't really have a keystone that synergizes with their play style? They'd definitely want the Precision and/or Domination tree more than Resolve.

That also brings me to a question of: Why were the Fiora buffs reverted? Are they also being held on to for 8.1, with things like Cleaver and such?

RiotMeddler3 votes

We'd want the new option to be a reasonable choice on skirmishers if they're facing a tough lane and need to go into resolve to survive it, make it so that's not so punishing a choice you should never do so. Unlikely to be something that's a common default choice for them though, assuming they more often want to be in a more aggressive tree. Possible there's the need for another keystone in Precision.

Fiora wise, from another post here we're not currenting buffing Fiora due to a "combination of Tiamat buff, Bramble nerf and generally improving performance as players are picking different runes on her."

DeathBurst3 votes

OK but what's supposed to be the Skirmisher's Keystone in not-so-tough lanes? Are they intended to go for Sorcery or Precision. Yasuo loves AS, but Fiora and Riven don't really care about it, and yet PtA + the rest of Precision Standard Runes is what fits their playstyle the best. And if they go Sorcery for the raw AD stat, they are pigeonholed into sub-optimal Runes.

I'm not saying the situation is catastrophic, far from it, but choosing between Runes or Stats is disheartening, and the proposed addition of a Resolve Keystone won't change that situation.

Càne6 votes

Why isn't Fiora getting anything?

RiotMeddler10 votes

Combination of Tiamat buff, Bramble nerf and generally improving performance as players are picking different runes on her.

QuadraKev4 votes

PSA to Fiora players: Stop taking Press the Attack and take Klepto + sorcery secondary.

LunaGoose5 votes

Feel like Kindred is a champion that regularly gets screwed by RNG. She needs her marks a lot more than someone like Bard needs his chimes. Frequently however you'll be in a game and you'll start at say blue buff and start heading towards your red and then a mark will spawn on the scuttle crab back over at your blue side - which leaves you with a choice of either forgoing the mark or going back for it and destroying your early jungle clear. Situations like this are nearly guaranteed to give the enemy jungler a big advantage for virtually no reason. There's also situations where your camps frequently spawn in places in the enemy jungle where you simply have no way of getting them whatsoever. I think it would be nice if there was at least some small level of control of where your marks spawn.

Wobbly Sausage5 votes

To start things off, we believe RNG, if done well, can have a place in competitive games

Ranked ARAM please :Dsummoner 32

KICK OUT AT 25 votes

The more RNG you add, the less skill-based the game becomes. There's no getting around that.

Bardekaiser3 votes

Depends on how you add it, its such a good debate to have and the shock reaction of "RNG" takes away from it.

Take drakes for example. People dislike how its random even though it allows for a strategy to be made in game instead of only after the champs are selected. Making players think a little more on the fly isnt a bad thing, its just like how the position of guns and ammo in pubg is randomized, as well as the basis of games like binding of isaac. There is still vibrant competitive expressions of skill with the inclusion of randomness, because predictability isnt the only skill that should be rewarded in league. At least, the devs feel that way.

XxxLumberJackxxX4 votes

Is that really what Olaf needs?

RiotMeddler6 votes

Since time of writing we've been talking about backing off on that, the E CD especially from memory. More analysis of Olaf needed there, as above won't be shipping anything in the next patch regardless.

Sunrize33 votes

What Olaf NEEDS is the Zac treatment: Make his beard get longer with higher health.

RiotMeddler21 votes

Cmon, you know that'll be OP AF.

(If we could do that in a reasonable way, I'd totally argue for doing that).

Tomoe Gozen4 votes

Olaf needs increased girth of his belt buckle with more HP he gets.

Never FF Boy4 votes

Any news for Master Yi MasterYi ? He's been ignored since a long time now. Every time someone ask a question about him here, it's ignored. It's been almost 2 years now since he is in this state, i would like some news at this point like a lot of people want.

Can i know your plan or what you think about him right know ? Thank you !

Jinzo Torrance4 votes

Why are you nerfing Heimer R Q damage?

Ashen Rider3 votes

Any thoughts on the general lack of mana issues in the early game, especially for champs that have historically been balanced around them? (Jayce in particular, as he doesn't even build Manamune anymore)

ModKnightsKemplar3 votes

Thanks for the update!

I realize I'm asking for something moderately unreasonable, but it sounds like there's been some discussion about crit at the Riot offices. I know there's been a lot on the Boards, too. Have you made enough progress there to at least share some options with us, or would that be unhelpful?

I only ask because I know there are a lot of players (not just me, but obviously me) that think a crit rework should be high priority and could help with the perception of game health, if not actual game health.

ShadowParker3 votes

What are your thoughts on Kindred's RNG and Twisted Fate's RNG?

HalcyonDweller3 votes

Hi Meddler,

RNG is a topic I'm very passionate about and it was very enriching to see such an in-depth analysis of RNG and input vs output. Thank you for writing about it!

That said, I had a training for most of today and now I'm super sad that I missed my chance to ask you questions about it. Fingers crossed hoping you see this. I really badly wanted to get your thoughts on two ideas related to Crit chance:

  • What do you think of having Crit modified so it works less well against squishies and better against high-armor targets? For example with conversion to true damage instead of addition of bonus physical damage?

  • Or what do you think of having Crit changed so that it causes damage to ramp up over time in combat? For example applying damage amplification that increases the more stacks you build?

Evil Yasuo3 votes

Is Irelia's weapon changing or staying the same? Personally, I think it could be a lot cooler.

K Crimson2 votes

Any sneakpeak about Birdperson? Swain Or day when we will see anything? <3

RiotMeddler4 votes

Can't say much, don't want to undercut the usual reveal/rollout process. Can say I've personally been enjoying the kit a lot in recent tests though. Recent testing with some randomly selected players we invited to the office (some Swain mains, some other mage players) seemed to go well too.

Mimikÿu2 votes

So any news about the recent sona nerfs or the nerfs to forbidden idol being alittle unnecessary considering enchanter supports aren't nearly as out of the line as tank supports like Leona. There's been a huge uproar about the whole situation as of late with the constant nerfs for the whole sorcery tree as well.

Off ßrand2 votes

I'm all for Brand Buffs but I think the main problem is how his stun interacts with the rest of his kit in terms of range and cast conditions, making it an inconsistent ability: must be ablaze so you have to be in uncomfortably close and dangerous proximity for that, and after casting that, throw a skillshot. The time frame to counterplay is huge and if you whiff it, you're also now locked out of doing your passive's damage within the scope of your basic abilities, so dealing damage with his kit is extremely contingent on landing everything, where any mistakes in throwing skillshots are much less forgiving than most other mages.

NooseNoodlz2 votes

We'll be leaving Grasp as is and looking to make a new Keystone instead. It's likely, though not guaranteed, that will also be in the Resolve tree. Release timing, assuming we find something that should be shipped, is uncertain. Unlikely to be in January however, given the holiday break coming up takes out some work time.

Wait so new runes being added can be a thing? Have you seen my post about manaless champs? Link is below.

Rune Idea for benefiting "Manaless Champs"

Evil Yasuo2 votes

Hey Meddler, I have the question from my thread. Are you guys really done making katana champions?(there's only 1 in the game) People in my thread said you guys aren't making anymore katana champions because of Yasuo is so hated. To me that's really dumb because there's TONS of us who love katanas and want a new katana user. At least rethink your guy's decision!

Gamma Anomaly2 votes

Can we expect changes to Kindred? It seems they still don't do anything better than Ezreal jungle, and they are FAR from being as good as Kayn or most other meta junglers.

BLÁCKPINK2 votes

Oooooo I really like the sound of new runes/keystones. Could you all maybe make like a 4th branch for every type though I understand it would take a while. I would really appreciate something for bruisers/fighters like Fiora and other top laners since tanks just destroy them right now cough cough Ornn and press the attack really isn't doing to well on Fiora in my opinion (obviously being biassed towards Fiora but it can be relevant for other champs).

Rayjay Redfang1 votes

Ehemm waves hand These are not the heimerdinger nerfs you are looking for.

Seriously though, why such a severe nerf as opposed to removing 10-20 damage from ult at all ranks or give his turrets the same treatment as zyra plants where melee attacks do more damage.

Illâoi Evê Siôn2 votes

You still have the option of throwing the ultimate grenade for the double turret beam rocket combo. His ultimate turret is just a little more niche now (not as niche as his rockets though, never use those).

Rayjay Redfang3 votes

It is the at the point now where ultimate grenade will be the most used. The grenade should have always been for cc rather than straight up damage, rockets for a lot of damage, and turret for great defense. I already use grenade more than any other because it is much better than the others.

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