Excuse me if this Point has been made Before

True Garen·Dec 15, 2018·25 votes·10,984 views

In "Real Life", here in the USA for example, I can vote at age 18, but I need to be, in most cases, of a higher age to actually run for office (like 25 for Representative) (besides additional restrictions).

These boards allow posting at any level, but an account must be level 30 to vote.

It seems to me that this is backwards, and should be changed.

The requirements for voting on a post should be less, than the requirements for actually posting.

Voting is a right, and should be open to any account that reaches a certain level, say 15 (the level at which one currently gains full rune access). But Posting should be the right of players who have worked to achieve a certain higher level and permanence. Traditionally, here, that seems to be level 30.

At the very least, it seems backwards that accounts can post but not vote.

20 Comments

mlm olo mlmDec 15, 20189 votes

Posting on forums is not the same as holding government office.

Voting on forums is not the same as voting for a government official.

I'm not a fan of your idea because I believe low level players have valid viewpoints. Especially, the low level players that have no intention of reaching level 30. Those players offer a perspective that no one else will have. They are the only ones that can explain why they are not satisfied with league. AKA constructive criticism. (At least I can hope it is constructive.)

True GarenDec 15, 201810 votes

Then you are missing the point of my idea. The actual levels aren't that important. If you think that low-level players are capable of forming valid ideas, then you should logically believe that they are also capable of expressing valid opinions about other people's ideas by voting on them. Let them vote. My main idea was that low-level players should be allowed to vote. (I think that voting is more fundamental than posting.)

Frankly, I think that you may be biased.

"low-level players that have no intention of reaching level 30" - ?! There's only one such kind of player that I come across, that posts on these boards... (and let those players just run their account for two weeks, come on!)

Fine, you want to quibble. - Let them post at level 12 and vote at level 6. (I don't want you to be unhappy or feel left out...)

mlm olo mlmDec 15, 20181 votes

[{quoted}](name=True Garen,realm=NA,application-id=6heBIhQc,discussion-id=v5whVdlG,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2018-12-15T05:11:29.666+0000)

Then you are missing the point of my idea. The actual levels aren't that important. If you think that low-level players are capable of forming valid ideas, then you should logically believe that they are also capable of expressing valid opinions about other people's ideas by voting on them. Let them vote. My main idea was that low-level players should be allowed to vote. (I think that voting is more fundamental than posting.)

Frankly, I think that you may be biased.

"low-level players that have no intention of reaching level 30" - ?! There's only one such kind of player that I come across, that posts on these boards... (and let those players just run their account for two weeks, come on!)

Fine, you want to quibble. - Let them post at level 12 and vote at level 6. (I don't want you to be unhappy or feel left out...)

I don't mind allowing all people to vote. It seemed you thought low levels should be allowed to vote while not being allowed to post.

Why are you trying to limit who can post and who can vote?

ModKnightsKemplarDec 15, 20188 votes

I would be all for this if you had to register your account with a government issued ID, as you do for traditional voting.

The reason we don't do this is simple; vote manipulation. You may not be one of the people with 2 dozen accounts, but they do exist. And they will use them, on occasion, to participate in something we refer to as "vote brigading" or "vote manipulation," where they use their 12+ accounts to make their voice heard a disproportionate number of times. Sometimes, this is used to make their "main account's" views look far more popular than they really are, but the bigger problem is when they make other user's opinions look far more unpopular than they really are, using these accounts to bury comments that they disagree with.

That can create a pretty hostile environment without being super visible to other users, since it's impossible for you to see which accounts have made votes. By restricting voting to higher level accounts, we significantly increase the barrier for people to use their accounts in that fashion.

So all the arguments about rights are sort of null for me; in most societies, you make trade offs between safety and rights. Every law is an example of a restriction on your rights that increases the quality of life for the whole community. This is really no different.

True GarenDec 15, 20188 votes

{quoted}

I would be all for this if you had to register your account with a government issued ID, as you do for traditional voting.

The reason we don't do this is simple; vote manipulation. You may not be one of the people with 2 dozen accounts, but they do exist. And they will use them, on occasion, to participate in something we refer to as "vote brigading" or "vote manipulation," where they use their 12+ accounts to make their voice heard a disproportionate number of times. Sometimes, this is used to make their "main account's" views look far more popular than they really are, but the bigger problem is when they make other user's opinions look far more unpopular than they really are, using these accounts to bury comments that they disagree with.

That can create a pretty hostile environment without being super visible to other users, since it's impossible for you to see which accounts have made votes. By restricting voting to higher level accounts, we significantly increase the barrier for people to use their accounts in that fashion.

So all the arguments about rights are sort of null for me; in most societies, you make trade offs between safety and rights. Every law is an example of a restriction on your rights that increases the quality of life for the whole community. This is really no different.

As you point out, the current system does not prevent this from happenning, either. If you are allowed to post, then you should be allowed to vote. Lowering the voting level slightly isn't going to suddenly flood with duplicate downvotes. ("Well, I'd make multiple accounts if I only needed to run to level 29, but 30 is just too much!") (Raising the posting level on the forums here slightly wouldn't lock out anybody for more than a matter of additional hours, for that matter...)

What makes this server more prone to manipulation than other servers that allow participants to vote as soon as they create an account?

(I was able to vote with my Reddit account as soon as I made it. Many people are of the opinion that Riot actually pays more attention to the Reddit boards...)

flibitydooDec 15, 20186 votes

I believe it's to make downvote/upvote botting less rampant.

Metal JannaDec 15, 20184 votes

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-fWX6v0NTvI Flibitydoo is probably right though. It's to make sockpuppet voting less attractive.

True GarenDec 15, 201810 votes

{quoted}

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-fWX6v0NTvI Flibitydoo is probably right though. It's to make sockpuppet voting less attractive.

Fine. But at whatever point you think that players should be allowed to vote, then that is when they should be allowed to post (or later), but not before. It just doesn't make sense (to me) that one may post but not vote.

JanakinDec 15, 20182 votes

Vote manipulation would be so easy.

True GarenDec 15, 20187 votes

{quoted}

Vote manipulation would be so easy.

Yeah, so maybe don't give the vote to brand new accounts. Running an account to level 15 is non-trivial. Even running an account to level 8 takes some investment of time...

Imperial PandaaDec 15, 20182 votes

Neither of them are actually a right. They are more a privelage we have been given for having an account.

True GarenDec 15, 20188 votes

[{quoted}](name=Imperial Pandaa,realm=NA,application-id=6heBIhQc,discussion-id=v5whVdlG,comment-id=0005,timestamp=2018-12-15T13:28:12.826+0000)

Neither of them are actually a right. They are more a privelage we have been given for having an account.

"When is a privilege not a privilege? - When it is a right." Viewing both of these as privileges doesn't change my point. Voting is the "easier" privilege, the lesser privilege, should logically be the first privilege, etc...

Imperial PandaaDec 15, 20182 votes

Is it the easier privilege though? I can literally discuss any topic I want in real life. We talk about even voting before we are old enough to vote. We do mock trials despite none of us being a court approved personnel. You don't have to qualify for a position in order to speak about something. For proof, look at US politics. Specifically the Mayor Cat in Alaska. That cat is probably more qualified than the penguin though.

It is far easier to have a discussion with others when the option isn't simply "agree" and "disagree". Maybe you have some valid points in one area, but I disagree in another. How is the voting going to convey that?

True GarenDec 15, 20186 votes

[{quoted}](name=Imperial Pandaa,realm=NA,application-id=6heBIhQc,discussion-id=v5whVdlG,comment-id=000500000000,timestamp=2018-12-15T16:13:25.320+0000)

Is it the easier privilege though? I can literally discuss any topic I want in real life. We talk about even voting before we are old enough to vote. We do mock trials despite none of us being a court approved personnel. You don't have to qualify for a position in order to speak about something. For proof, look at US politics. Specifically the Mayor Cat in Alaska. That cat is probably more qualified than the penguin though.

It is far easier to have a discussion with others when the option isn't simply "agree" and "disagree". Maybe you have some valid points in one area, but I disagree in another. How is the voting going to convey that?

People are thinking about your opinion in real life and discussing it, but they aren't directly voting on your opinion. With your analogy, perhaps low-level posters (new players) should be protected from having their opinion voted on at all (making such posts unvotable by themselves).

Imperial PandaaDec 15, 20182 votes

Your entire thing is seemingly based on the fact that you feel voting is enough of a voice for a lower level player. Which leaves no room for in between outside of not voting period.

True GarenDec 15, 20186 votes

[{quoted}](name=Imperial Pandaa,realm=NA,application-id=6heBIhQc,discussion-id=v5whVdlG,comment-id=00050000000000000000,timestamp=2018-12-15T16:37:45.774+0000)

Your entire thing is seemingly based on the fact that you feel voting is enough of a voice for a lower level player. Which leaves no room for in between outside of not voting period.

Actually, you may have led us to another option.