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Moderation is INCREDIBLY draconian

Dominick Destine··6 votes·572 views

It did not used to be this way.

I would like to ask what happened to make the rules so unbelievably strict to the point where almost nothing can be openly stated even within the boundaries of Riot's own system.

Here are 5 separate examples off the top of my head; 1- Anything misconstrued as "hurting someone's feelings" is a violation. 2- Pointing out someone's status within Riot's brackets is a violation. 3- Sometimes, SOMETIMES profanity is a violation. [Distinction only known to moderation] 4- Self-censorship is a violation as long as moderation doesn't agree with it. 5- Making anyone feel "uncomofortable" not even hurting their feelings.... it's gotten that abstract.

Moderation used to be a lot more relaxed and valued interaction, what happened to turn it ultra draconian?

EDIT: It would be nice if at least one person read the post and answered the question....

32 Comments

ModUlanopo9 votes

Moderation used to be a lot more relaxed and valued interaction, what happened to turn it ultra draconian?

It's impossible to answer this question in any meaningful way because it's leading and starts with a subjective, unsubstantiated opinion. As a point of debate, it's even less valuable than "when did the pizza place start using cheap pepperoni?"

In an effort to comply, however, I will note that you have used the term "draconian" with regard to moderation, both in and out of game, for much longer than there have been volunteer moderators. This makes it difficult to have any sense of what you mean by the change. It feels as though what you really mean to say is you don't understand the criteria used as a basis for moderation and that frustrates you, for which you have my sympathy.

With regard to your examples:

1- Anything misconstrued as "hurting someone's feelings" is a violation.

"Misconstrued" is yet another attempt at negative framing. Anything that is construed as a personal attack is a violation. There's a difference.

2- Pointing out someone's status within Riot's brackets is a violation.

Absolutely. Rank-shaming lacks intellectual integrity, as it's a reverse form of Appeal to Authority. The purpose of the board is to foster meaningful, productive conversations. Rank-shaming is corrosive to that.

3- Sometimes, SOMETIMES profanity is a violation. [Distinction only known to moderation]

Profanity is almost always unacceptable when it comes in the form of hate speech or personal attacks. I'm going to feel safe in assuming you don't have any examples of situations where something like this was left up. Just remember, anecdotes are not data.

4- Self-censorship is a violation as long as moderation doesn't agree with it.

Could you perhaps clarify what you mean here?

5- Making anyone feel "uncomofortable" not even hurting their feelings.... it's gotten that abstract.

Can you perhaps share an example?

Dominick Destine1 votes

{quoted}

It's impossible to answer this question in any meaningful way because it's leading and starts with a subjective, unsubstantiated opinion.

Sigh, if I make a detalied chart with examples with how each year became more draconian, would you admit that you and all other moderators that contradict me were completely wrong and that you were being intellectually dishonest? I am willing to put in the work but what would be the point if you do not acknowledge it?

Anyone that has been here since the beginning of the old forums down to the modern draconian boards knows that this is axiomatic.... I can prove it, but I don't want to because it's a lot of work for something we already know is true.

In an effort to comply, however, I will note that you have used the term "draconian" with regard to moderation, both in and out of game, for much longer than there have been volunteer moderators.

That is not a salient point. Moderation has existed since before people were accepted as volunteers, you know this.

This makes it difficult to have any sense of what you mean by the change.

I was very clear that I am stating that moderation has become extremely more strict over time. I am not sure what part of this you are having difficulty understanding, as you say.

It feels as though what you really mean to say is you don't understand the criteria used as a basis for moderation and that frustrates you, for which you have my sympathy.

Absolutely wrong.

"Misconstrued" is yet another attempt at negative framing. Anything that is construed as a personal attack is a violation. There's a difference.

Calling a red door red is not an insult or an attack, and yet if someone dislikes that or their feelings are hurt, moderation takes it as a green light to execute their power over users. As you have access to the deleted comments of mine; I had a post recently deleted for self-censorship, the word [word] was apparently "offensive".

There is your example right there.

Absolutely. Rank-shaming

Stop you right there and , although I know that you are part of the extreme draconian system, I will be frank for one brief instance; Calling a bronze bronze is not "Shaming", it is a statement of fact. Bronze Chaos is the absolute worst bracket in the entire game, I did not make it this way, Riot did.

People that are , as someone else has said, at the smack dab bottom of the barrel, are not there by accident. Pointing this out has nothing to do with "Emotions", it is objective fact.

Profanity is almost always unacceptable

That one I'll grant that I have never been censored because of profanity.... I don't use profanity in that manner anyway.

So I will withdraw that one , ironically it's the only one you admit to being ultra draconian to.

when it comes in the form of hate speech

"Hate speech" ? I don't know when the boards became Tumblr but it honestly went undetected by me or else I would have said something much sooner.

or personal attacks.

I get many , MANY personal attacks, I don't know if you have logs on the people that I myself report, but you will find no shortage of people directly insulting me... only about half have their comments deleted.

So where is the "almost always unacceptable"?

I'm going to feel safe in assuming you don't have any examples of situations where something like this was left up. Just remember, anecdotes are not data.

You want me to provide grand scale data from deleted posts ? perhaps you should realize that I do not have full access to the statistics that Riot has.

Could you perhaps clarify what you mean here? Can you perhaps share an example?

Refer to prior example.

The word [word] was considered "offensive" and my comment was deleted. Ironically, I strongly believe the moderator thought that I was using it in place of the word "Retarded" but I was actually using it in place of the word "Bronze".... which makes it both funny and sad.

I believe the line was "Poe's law. At this point I don't know if you are trolling or legitimately [Word]."

My intent was to refer to Bronze Chaos but again I strongly believe that moderation believed I was using it in place of "Retarded" which I did not, I would even challenge moderation to ever find an instance of me calling someone a "Retard", I wouldn't, I don't.... BRONZE on the other hand I've used thousands of times, which was , what I thought was clearly , the intent.

[Inb4 hyper draconian moderation bans me for using the word "Retard" despite using it in a context where I am surmising what the belief of a moderator was in place of a substitute [word] within a post... in other words, even examples used in context will be used against me]

My point is, I am VERY disappointed that not a single moderator answered the question, but it doesn't matter, in a way you've already answered.... you are in agreement with the draconian system and are strictly anti-human interaction. That's fine, I will always play by the rules, but I remember a time when interaction was far more free-form. This current system is garbage and I hope one day, you are all replaced with people that value liberty of expression [Inb4 conflation with "Freedom of speech", these two things are not the same, at least the concepts mean very different things in my country and yours]

ModUlanopo7 votes

Sigh, if I make a detalied chart with examples with how each year became more draconian, would you admit that you and all other moderators that contradict me were completely wrong and that you were being intellectually dishonest?

I'm going to stop you right there because that sentence is a perfect example of why your threads and posts get downvoted and why no one has any interest in your ideas. Unless and until you can stop insulting people with your basic premise, you'll never get anywhere.

The short version is that you seem to feel you're being persecuted, which is not something we as moderators can address, given your perspective is so consistently incompatible with the rest of the community. We can't explain moderation to someone fully committed to misunderstanding it.

I hope one day, you are all replaced with people that value liberty of expression

The irony is rich here, given that you have 64 violations on your boards account, yet retain your posting privileges. Clearly we understand liberty of expression pretty well.

Dominick Destine2 votes

{quoted}

given that you have 64 violations on your boards account

Oh my lord that is quite amazing.

That's screenshot material . I would seriously make that my signature if this forum had signatures.

Deep Terror Nami7 votes

Is this about how they told you to stop bringing up people's rank in an attempt to invalidate their position? I'm sure I could discuss these things a little more with you, as I haven't been part of it so far.

Dominick Destine2 votes

I would think that mini moderators would be required to at least read the original post... I went out of my way, editing the original post to provide 5 different examples of the draconian nature I am talking about. Your post was made after the edit as well....

It's really not a long post, I highly recommend you read it before responding.

Deep Terror Nami6 votes

I had this page open for quite a long time because I am busy with other matters, I apologize for not refreshing it before responding when I was finally able to.

Still, I'm not able to discuss any of these without some examples from you. I recommend responding with more specifics if you'd like to discuss them.

Dominick Destine2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Deep Terror Nami,realm=NA,application-id=6heBIhQc,discussion-id=v2yIAEss,comment-id=000100000000,timestamp=2017-07-31T06:17:09.274+0000)

I had this page open for quite a long time because I am busy with other matters, I apologize for not refreshing it before responding when I was finally able to.

I edited it almost instantly, no one had posted when I finished my edit. I checked.

I find your explanation to be lacking but very well.

I'm not able to discuss any of these without some examples from you

I gave 5 examples. If you want specific examples (I.e. my own instances) then I'd have trouble giving them to you because the posts were subject to deletion by the board's draconian system. How to give evidence when evidence was burned ?

Deep Terror Nami6 votes

no one had posted when I finished my edit.

The page doesn't update until you refresh, anyone already looking at it won't see an update until then. I frequently watch Boards Feedback so it's not uncommon for me to see posts as the come along (but unfortunately I have been having to take care of more pressing matters to reply immediately).

I'd have trouble giving them to you because the posts were subject to deletion

I can see them as a moderator, but regardless we should be able to discuss your issues with moderation with mock scenarios; unless you are simply trying to contest your own removals and not moderation as a whole, but your post is being written in a manner that suggests you take issue with the rules and our process, not individual actions against yourself.

If you are actually just wanting to discuss your removals only, all of your comments were copied and provided back to you in the removal messages, you can just copy-paste what we need to discuss if you need to. I promise I will not punish you for trying to discuss them :3

Dominick Destine2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Deep Terror Nami,realm=NA,application-id=6heBIhQc,discussion-id=v2yIAEss,comment-id=00010000000000000000,timestamp=2017-07-31T06:47:10.446+0000)

I can see [the comments we deleted] (because I am part of the) moderator(s)

That's great, but wait... didn't you specifically say...

....still, I'm not able to discuss any of these without some examples from you.

which directly contradicts...

[only] I can see them as a moderator

/boggle

What exactly do you want from me as evidence when you literally just admitted that only you have access to said evidence? what?

unless you are simply trying to contest your own removals

When have I ever said anything remotely resembling that?

Okay let's make one thing very very clear; I am asking a question, in the original post and I would like an answer. I have no idea where you got all of the rest of this from, but it is basic, very common courtesy to at least read the post before responding; You have not done this, nor have you answered the question.

If you are actually just wanting to discuss your removals only, all of your comments were copied and provided back to you in the removal messages, you can just copy-paste what we need to discuss if you need to. I promise I will not punish you for trying to discuss them

You sure about that? I just double checked and I can say with 100% confidence that....[LLLLLLLL].... a particularly incorrect concept. The level of draconian censorship here forbids that I even make reference to how I would like to end tihs post.

Deep Terror Nami7 votes

I'm not going to post your content for you, that's not how this works. I'm not going to be accused of cherry picking your content, it isn't my responsibility to construct your discussion for you, and I don't want you claiming I'm shaming you or abusing my power by publicly displaying deleted comments you did not authorize me to share.

Dominick Destine2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Deep Terror Nami,realm=NA,application-id=6heBIhQc,discussion-id=v2yIAEss,comment-id=0001000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2017-07-31T07:32:01.465+0000)

I'm not going to post your content for you

I never asked for that. I even gave general examples in the opening post, YOU asked for specific examples, not me.

I'm a bit surprised the mini moderators have taken you in again, you are being very uncourteous and in the past, this was grounds for expulsion. I ask again that you read the original post and answer the question.

I don't want you claiming I'm shaming you or abusing my power

It would be nice if you could point out a single instance of me accusing you of "abuse of power".

What I am accusing you of is NOT READING THE ORIGINAL POST, which you very clearly either have not, or are ignoring. Both are against what I have been informed is part of your duty.

EDIT: I kind of wish I could report you [to equal effect] , while what you are doing is not worse than what I have gotten posts deleted for, it is very very close.... however, if I did less than what you're doing right now, 7 times in a single thread, I would absolutely have comments deleted and my account warned.

In other words, I wish I could get away with doing what you're doing right now.

Deep Terror Nami6 votes

Alright, if you aren't going to post the content you wish to discuss then I can only assume you are trolling moderation, and this will not be tolerated. Please post the content you wish to discuss or this post will be closed.

Dominick Destine2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Deep Terror Nami,realm=NA,application-id=6heBIhQc,discussion-id=v2yIAEss,comment-id=000100000000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2017-07-31T07:38:53.743+0000)

Alright, if you aren't going to post the content you wish to discuss then I can only assume you are trolling moderation, and this will not be tolerated. Please post the content you wish to discuss or this post will be closed.

You have exceeded what I would do in a thread and thus, I am reporting you, I know you are a mini moderator and you will receive zero punishment, but you have posted 8 times, trolling in each one, subtly I will admit, but 8 times is enough to show a pattern and the last one was the one that went far enough that it can be shown to be clear.

Here is my question which was in the opening post; Moderation used to be a lot more relaxed and valued interaction, what happened to turn it ultra draconian?

Fact: The level of strictness on the boards was much lower in the past. Fact: It has increased over time. Question: What was the cause of this?

You ignored this over and over. Pretending like I didn't clarify. I wouldn't mind, but I was told this section of the boards was supposedly heavily moderated so I attempted to play by these rules, I see now that the rules only go one way and that you are above the rules, able to blatantly troll without repercussion.

I say again, but with twice the conviction; I have had posts deleted and received account warnings for much less than you.... and you're a mini moderator so you'd think Riot would hold you to a higher standard...

Deep Terror Nami8 votes

Moderation used to be a lot more relaxed and valued interaction, what happened to turn it ultra draconian?

This is basically the opposite of the truth. In general, the Volunteer moderation is able to interact directly with the players more, and are making significant efforts to make moderation more visible by way of discussing actions with them on this Board and on our Moderation Discord, in addition to reaching out to them in threads frequently and having the ability to create their own deletion messages instead of using copy-pastes 100% of the time.

However, since we are able to get down into the community on a personal level, that also means we will see patterns of people causing regular problems more easily where they would go unnoticed for literally years by the old moderation.

You should be getting a link to our Discord in every notification for a mod action, but I don't think I've seen you there. If you need to contest an action that is the best place; we can't help you with vague accusations that moderation is bad.

Pretending like I didn't clarify

Maybe I was unclear. I am talking about your "5 separate examples" and the multiple responses discussing your own posts that you claim you wanted me to post (which I will not do for you). Those are extremely vague accusations and need something more specific to hold a discussion around. It comprises about half your post so I assume you had something about those you want to discuss?

Dominick Destine2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Deep Terror Nami,realm=NA,application-id=6heBIhQc,discussion-id=v2yIAEss,comment-id=00010000000000000000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2017-07-31T07:55:46.514+0000)

This is basically the opposite of the truth.

It took 9 posts from you for before you finally read the OP, good to know.... but the above quoted is wrong.

I could make a timeline and a chart with a breakdown of how moderation got worse and worse... obviously the transition from classic forums into the modern boards would be the biggest spike but each year after that increased the level of strictness as well. I might do that but not right now....

since we are able to get down into the community on a personal level, that also means we will see patterns of people causing regular problems more easily where they would go unnoticed for literally years by the old moderation.

I like that....it's statistical significance when you do it... but its a bad thing when I do it.

I was told that this section of the boards is heavily moderated, but apparently that only goes on way. That is all.

Deep Terror Nami7 votes

I'm trying really hard to get you to say anything specific about what you are taking issue with, beyond "moderation is worse and more strict". Can you please elaborate on any of your 5 major points somehow? We discussed you sharing specific removals of yours; that is still an option for you to share if any of them seem unfair to you.

This board was created to get this kind of feedback, but we can't do anything with the limited way in which you've stated your grievances.

ModBoggyBuntu4 votes

If I may ask, can you be more specific on what Boards Sections do you feel moderation is doing wrong?

Dominick Destine2 votes

{quoted}

If I may ask, can you be more specific on what Boards Sections do you feel moderation is doing wrong?

I dislike the distraction/red herring you are performing .... it would be nice if you at least addressed my point before changing the subject but very well; The board subsection being primarily addressed in this instance is "Gameplay board subsection" and secondarily about "Player behavior (and ex moderation) board" subsection.

Now, could you at least answer my question ?

Galacius2 votes

What do you propose can be done to improve the moderation on those boards? If you believe the moderation there is "draconian" in nature, then what solution would you come up with to fix it?

We do listen to feedback, so what are your thoughts?

Dominick Destine2 votes

{quoted}

What do you propose can be done to improve the moderation on those boards?

Reduction in the extreme enforcement of rules with regards to player interaction.

If you believe the moderation there is "draconian" in nature, then what solution would you come up with to fix it?

Allowing more lax interaction between players, again.

We do listen to feedback, so what are your thoughts?

Removing the entire implementation of the draconian system but since you want specifics [which I know you will ignore since I now know that moderators adore the draconian system];

  • Referencing someone's status in Riot's bracket system should not be punishable. It's Riot's system, they implemented it, not me.
  • Profanity should not be punishable as long as it is used in a proper context.
  • Draconian Moderators should be removed or outright re-trained because they seem to always assume the worst in users [Refer to example where my use of the word [Word] led to punishment]
  • etc.
Breaku2 votes

[deleted]

Dominick Destine2 votes

{quoted}

Well that's lovely.

At this point I will point out that I've had posts deleted for much, MUCH less than the above quoted. I've literally had posts deleted (and my account threatened) for using the term [Word]. Nice one Riot moderation.

At bare minimum some consistency in the hardcore censorship would be nice.

ModWulf Helhammer3 votes

Because when you've been warned about 15 other times, their patience runs thin

Dominick Destine2 votes

{quoted}

Because when you've been warned about 15 other times, their patience runs thin

Absolute nonsense.

Your statement implies that it was for the same thing and/or of equal significance. I've had posts deleted for offenses that you'd need to run a fine tooth comb to detect.... admittedly a couple of those (Vast minority) were indeed legit violations , but I contend that the majority were not hence my assessment that either they were wrong to engage in hard censorship or that the system is unbelievably draconian.

I choose to believe that Riot is not wrong, therefore the only viable alternative is that the draconian went from being reasonable, to unbelievably draconian. I am asking the reason for the change.

Deep Terror Nami3 votes

Moderation is not automated and we need time, contrary to popular belief.

Dominick Destine2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Deep Terror Nami,realm=NA,application-id=6heBIhQc,discussion-id=v2yIAEss,comment-id=000000000001,timestamp=2017-07-31T06:15:35.279+0000)

Moderation is not automated and we need time, contrary to popular belief.

That's not a valid argument.

My argument is not quantitative.... please, read the actual post.... you are not even close to what I said. I never said anything remotely resembling ;

"Moderation is taking too long to do its job"

Deep Terror Nami3 votes

Your claim was that our moderation is inconsistent, however, that is not the case here because the real reason it wasn't removed was because we didn't have time to. While your intent may not have been accusing us of being slow, being slow was the true reason for the issue you were having, so the comment was made in order to let you know that.

Edit: Can we get to the real topic?

Dominick Destine2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Deep Terror Nami,realm=NA,application-id=6heBIhQc,discussion-id=v2yIAEss,comment-id=00000000000100000000,timestamp=2017-07-31T06:56:44.310+0000)

Your claim was that our moderation is inconsistent

In an ancillary post yes.

Not in the main one. Do you intend to answer the ORIGINAL and CORE issue ? you have posted nearly 7 times without even so much as answering the very first question.

Edit: Can we get to the real topic?

[slayer-jinx-unamused]

SuicideAll2 votes

Each moderator is different.

I don't think I've met a single one that believes in free speech. Nor a Rioter.

A lot of the moderators have trouble listening. Probably over worked. New hires are rare because they have to show a blind faith in Riot and be willing to volunteer.

It's probably easier to hit the delete button than to understand a strangers point of view.

ModWulf Helhammer5 votes

Free speech does not apply in any capacity in this game.

That's not how that works

Iota Theta2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Dominick Destine,realm=NA,application-id=6heBIhQc,discussion-id=v2yIAEss,comment-id=,timestamp=2017-07-31T05:23:55.420+0000)

It did not used to be this way.

I would like to ask what happened to make the rules so unbelievably strict to the point where almost nothing can be openly stated even within the boundaries of Riot's own system.

Moderation used to be a lot more relaxed and valued interaction, what happened to turn it ultra draconian?

Has it become more strict? I guess. What happened? We got a more involved moderator system than what we had before. And it's the best thing that has happened to these boards.

Why do I say that? Mainly because of my beliefs. I come from a viewpoint where rules are established for the people's benefit. Sure, we need some freedoms, but rules are there to protect us and help us be the best we can be (want a good idea of how people should act? Read commandments 5-10 of the Ten Commandments, or the Golden Rule). We may not be as bad as we can possibly be, but we would still be really bad without rules.

As for the specifics of the boards, the rules are there to encourage healthy discussion among all players, without devolving to personal attacks, which break down the lines of communication and discussion ceases.

Ulanopo covered some of these, but..

Here are 5 separate examples off the top of my head; 1- Anything misconstrued as "hurting someone's feelings" is a violation.

Difference between hurting someone's feelings and an actual personal attack. The former can happen without it being intentional and can be rectified, but an attack is entirely different.

2- Pointing out someone's status within Riot's brackets is a violation.

This one. Oh boy, this one. Rank Shaming, er..sorry, point out someone'e status may be "fact" in their actual placement, but as Ulanopo said, it is corrosive to discussion. It takes a discussion and, instead of pointing out the actual errors in the opposing view or working with each other, just says "I'm better than you so your opinions don't count" or simply "I'm better so I'm right." Man I hate that tactic. Strike that, it isn't even a valid tactic. It is not a discussion point, but an attack on a person's skill level. It's why I hated posting on the boards until recently, because I knew someone would try to use it to dismiss my opinion on something (someone once tried it against me with mastery points on a champ).

3- Sometimes, SOMETIMES profanity is a violation. [Distinction only known to moderation]

Meh, Was covered before my post.

4- Self-censorship is a violation as long as moderation doesn't agree with it.

It's a violation depending on the context.

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