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Why hello thar mods

KFCeytron··3 votes·3,185 views

I try very hard to follow rules. I've even sat in Discord and waited for hours to ask a mod whether content I intended to post was appropriate. I've also requested an opt-in manual review to preapprove posts. However, as I'm sure you've noticed, the rate at which I violate Boards rules (judging by my removed posts) has not only not decreased to zero, it is accelerating. The most recent one was the most perplexing (to me). I was participating in a thread about paying for opportunities to get an in-game advantage. Unfortunately, one of a few people who didn't understand this concept began to get very agitated and confrontational, shouting in caps, calling people a "waste of time," and so on, finally announcing that he was going to leave in a huff before mods got him for swearing at people. I explained that swearing isn't a guarantee of mod action, but screaming, baiting, calling people a "waste of time," etc. are more likely to attract notice.

As it turns out, replying to someone after they've basically given you the finger and stomped off constitutes harassment, because obviously they were tired of your stupid shit, right? And you kept being an idiot and wasting their time - sorry, not wasting their time, but being a waste of time - so if you do that, you've broken the rules. Doesn't matter that you're patiently and politely trying to turn someone from a raging, baiting troll into a constructive Boards poster; doesn't matter that they don't have to read your reply; hitting that reply button is not allowed. Here's a direct quote from my mod message:

If someone is trying to tell you they're done with a conversation, the appropriate response is to leave them alone, rather than responding to their most recent message in order to have the last word. Continuing to infringe on someone's boundaries can constitute Harassment and isn't tolerated. Additionally, if you see something that breaks the Universal Rules, please don't respond to it, and instead report it and move on. Responding to bad behaviour [with or without] bad behaviour isn't necessary, and causes unneeded clutter on the Boards.

I'll be sure to keep this in mind. If someone starts to annoy me, I'll tell them I'm done with the conversation. If they reply to me, I'll report them and eagerly await the post's removal. Because merely replying to someone who's told you not to on a publicly-accessible forum is Harassment. Capital H. And notice that there's no limitation by thread - all you have to do is tell someone you don't like talking to them, and from that point onward any attempt at interaction with you would be Harassment. The content of the post is immaterial. It could be as simple as "ya, I like cheese, too." The important part is that their posts infringe on your boundaries, and that's not allowed.

And hey, I even got a nice little threat that if I keep breaking the rules I CAN'T FUCKING AVOID BREAKING BECAUSE THEY'RE EQUAL TO WHATEVER A MOD FEELS LIKE AND THEY'RE KEPT INTENTIONALLY VAGUE SO THAT MODS CAN DO WHATEVER THEY FEEL LIKE, I'll be banned. :)

While there are going to be no actions against your account at this time, be aware that continually violating the rules will result in further consequences, up to and including suspensions to your Boards access.

I'm trying to understand your rules.

I cannot understand your rules.

I'm trying to follow your rules.

I cannot follow your rules.

You create vague, generic rules, you refuse to provide clarification before the fact, I try my best to remain calm, polite, and objective, but all you're doing is waiting for me to fail, and then you jump in with condescension and threats. Meanwhile, the person who baited me into this is probably sitting there giggling at the drama he created.

Mods, if you're thinking of replying to this post with a nice little patronizing "but your behavior wuz mean, and Rules say don't be mean, so obvious," don't. I hereby explicitly am not interested in being condescended to by people who keep the rules secret and then smack Wesley down when he trips over a fence into a flowerbed. If you do so now that I've specifically said I don't want it, it would fall under Harassment by the rules you interpreted at me and you would have to penalize yourselves.

I'm really tired of your games, basically.

25 Comments

ModThe Djinn7 votes

{quoted}Doesn't matter that you're patiently and politely trying to turn someone from a raging, baiting troll into a constructive Boards poster...

The problem here comes from the following two lines:

I guess I shouldn't be surprised. Millions of people all over the world fall for lotteries, casinos, and loot boxes.

^ This is not an appropriate response when someone decides they're done with the conversation (although they way the phrase it wasn't acceptable). The implication here is a strong "well, you're easily duped and that doesn't surprise me."

I do recommend actually stepping away and taking some time to think about how you can make more worthwhile contributions to the next conversation you join.

^ There is also a very strong implication here that someone is NOT making worthwhile contributions. While that may be true, pointing it out is not necessary.

Yes, they gave you the finger and stomped off. The problem isn't that you responded after that -- it's how you responded.

I'll be sure to keep this in mind. If someone starts to annoy me, I'll tell them I'm done with the conversation. If they reply to me, I'll report them and eagerly await the post's removal. Because merely replying to someone who's told you not to on a publicly-accessible forum is Harassment. Capital H.

That's not really how it works. We'll definitely take a look to see if there's a specific pattern of clear harassment (such as repeatedly spamming replies to someone who has bowed out of a conversation), but you do not get to dictate who does and doesn't get to respond to your posts.


Part of the reason I suspect you run into issues with the rules is that, looking over your history, you've acquired a rather high number of borderline removals compared to your number of more obvious violations. This is stuff that does add up, but isn't as clear-cut as many of our more obvious rules. There are definitely some grey areas, and your removal history (which isn't actually that bad, and contains a lot of removals that aren't even actually warnings) steps right smack into a bunch of them.

KFCeytron2 votes

[{quoted}](name=The Djinn,realm=NA,application-id=6heBIhQc,discussion-id=q6qFEMfA,comment-id=0003,timestamp=2019-01-29T22:43:35.059+0000)

The problem here comes from the following two lines:

^ This is not an appropriate response when someone decides they're done with the conversation (although they way the phrase it wasn't acceptable). The implication here is a strong "well, you're easily duped and that doesn't surprise me."

^ There is also a very strong implication here that someone is NOT making worthwhile contributions. While that may be true, pointing it out is not necessary.

Yes, they gave you the finger and stomped off. The problem isn't that you responded after that -- it's how you responded.

That's not really how it works. We'll definitely take a look to see if there's a specific pattern of clear harassment (such as repeatedly spamming replies to someone who has bowed out of a conversation), but you do not get to dictate who does and doesn't get to respond to your posts.


Part of the reason I suspect you run into issues with the rules is that, looking over your history, you've acquired a rather high number of borderline removals compared to your number of more obvious violations. This is stuff that does add up, but isn't as clear-cut as many of our more obvious rules. There are definitely some grey areas, and your removal history (which isn't actually that bad, and contains a lot of removals that aren't even actually warnings) steps right smack into a bunch of them.

Millions of people do participate in lotteries, and millions of people do complain that getting the same drop from a boss three times in a row isn't random, and millions of people do have trouble with this sort of thing. But they don't always flame and (successfully) bait others into replying. Someone gives me the finger and stomps off, and it's just as bad to say "giving the finger and stomping off isn't a positive contribution"?

"That's not really how it works." Oh? Lemme quote you once again what I was told:

If someone is trying to tell you they're done with a conversation, the appropriate response is to leave them alone, rather than responding to their most recent message in order to have the last word. Continuing to infringe on someone's boundaries can constitute Harassment and isn't tolerated. Additionally, if you see something that breaks the Universal Rules, please don't respond to it, and instead report it and move on. Responding to bad behaviour [with or without] bad behaviour isn't necessary, and causes unneeded clutter on the Boards.

That is literally what another mod just wrote. Can you not talk to each other and agree even amongst yourselves on a policy before punishing someone for it? Because getting told two flat-out contradictory things by as many mods just doesn't work. Was I "repeatedly spamming replies"? Can I not report someone for responding "without bad behavior" after I've indicated that I don't want to hear from them anymore?

I like how you admit that my removal history is grey areas. Thanks for erring on the side of punishing me. I really appreciate the fact that if I keep posting I'll eventually be banned for not reading your minds (the right minds for any particular moment, given that mods can't even agree on policy) and accidentally violating the rules that a mod decided would apply. To me. That day.

ModThe Djinn3 votes

{quoted}That is literally what another mod just wrote.

It is also not contradictory to my statement, which defined what sort of subsequent harassment would qualify. There are specific patterns of behavior that we would consider as harassment, including clearly and deliberately following you to other threads/comments or repeatedly posting replies in an attempt to get you to reengage. Simply posting in response to you is not harassment, even if you did say you were leaving the conversation.

I like how you admit that my removal history is grey areas. Thanks for erring on the side of punishing me.

Again, many of your responses were removals without warnings. That's clean-up, but not really a punishment. I also took a brief jog through your post history, and discovered a few things that were actionable but were not actioned on. So the system does hit you occasionally, but you've also gotten several comments where we erred on the side of lenience.

KFCeytron1 votes

[{quoted}](name=The Djinn,realm=NA,application-id=6heBIhQc,discussion-id=q6qFEMfA,comment-id=000300000000,timestamp=2019-01-29T23:14:06.091+0000)

It is also not contradictory to my statement, which defined what sort of subsequent harassment would qualify. There are specific patterns of behavior that we would consider as harassment, including clearly and deliberately following you to other threads/comments or repeatedly posting replies in an attempt to get you to reengage. Simply posting in response to you is not harassment, even if you did say you were leaving the conversation.

Again, many of your responses were removals without warnings. That's clean-up, but not really a punishment. I also took a brief jog through your post history, and discovered a few things that were actionable but were not actioned on. So the system does hit you occasionally, but you've also gotten several comments where we erred on the side of lenience.

It is certainly contradictory. The message said that any reply to disengagement with or without poor behavior is Harassment. You, however, clarified that only a reply to a disengagement with poor behavior would be removed. And I don't think my behavior was poor, either in absolute terms or relative to some of the things I see around here, ask mods about, and get told is fine.

You sometimes don't punish me for failing to follow the rules that you don't lay out, but sometimes you do. And they're grey areas. Do you think it's okay to put someone on the road to permaban for things that some mods (and not others) consider maybe not so great in a certain light? Just tell me how to follow the rules and I'll do it. You think I enjoy seeing that orange bar at the top of the page? I don't. It means I failed yet again. Stop setting me up to fail.

KFCeytron1 votes

[{quoted}](name=The Djinn,realm=NA,application-id=6heBIhQc,discussion-id=q6qFEMfA,comment-id=000300000000,timestamp=2019-01-29T23:14:06.091+0000)

It is also not contradictory to my statement, which defined what sort of subsequent harassment would qualify. There are specific patterns of behavior that we would consider as harassment, including clearly and deliberately following you to other threads/comments or repeatedly posting replies in an attempt to get you to reengage. Simply posting in response to you is not harassment, even if you did say you were leaving the conversation.

Again, many of your responses were removals without warnings. That's clean-up, but not really a punishment. I also took a brief jog through your post history, and discovered a few things that were actionable but were not actioned on. So the system does hit you occasionally, but you've also gotten several comments where we erred on the side of lenience.

So, is that it? Just gonna dump a few "no, you're wrong, our rules are very clear and mods never contradict each other" posts into here, ignore the fact that the person who baited me into this has followed me into this thread to continue to be rude and keep harassing me after I've asked him to stop, and wander off?

AeroWaffle3 votes

{quoted}

So, is that it? Just gonna dump a few "no, you're wrong, our rules are very clear and mods never contradict each other" posts into here, ignore the fact that the person who baited me into this has followed me into this thread to continue to be rude and keep harassing me after I've asked him to stop, and wander off?

These are public boards. If people are not breaking the rules (and I'm not seeing anyone harassing you here) they can post. Telling them to stop posting doesn't mean that they are forced to go away.

KFCeytron1 votes

{quoted}

These are public boards. If people are not breaking the rules (and I'm not seeing anyone harassing you here) they can post. Telling them to stop posting doesn't mean that they are forced to go away.

He is harassing me by following me here to continue to be rude, with "what's so hard to understand" and jeering about "writing essays" and then I clearly disengage and he responds to it with "SMH" which is neither necessary nor useful and that's okay? Note that my removal was for merely responding in a civil and constructive manner to an extremely rude disengage. Someone is rude and then rudely disengages, then my polite response merits a punishment; someone is rude and then I try to politely disengage, and their rude response doesn't merit a punishment. Does that make sense to you?

AeroWaffle3 votes

{quoted}

He is harassing me by following me here to continue to be rude, with "what's so hard to understand" and jeering about "writing essays" and then I clearly disengage and he responds to it with "SMH" which is neither necessary nor useful and that's okay?

Telling them to stop posting is not you disengaging, it's demanding that they disengage.

Note that my removal was for merely responding in a civil and constructive manner to an extremely rude disengage. Someone is rude and then rudely disengages, then my polite response merits a punishment; someone is rude and then I try to politely disengage, and their rude response doesn't merit a punishment. Does that make sense to you?

The Djinn already explained in the pinned comment why the removals were made and it seems fair to me. Both you and the other person in that thread was starting to cross the line in your back and forth.

KFCeytron1 votes

{quoted}

Telling them to stop posting is not you disengaging, it's demanding that they disengage.

The Djinn already explained in the pinned comment why the removals were made and it seems fair to me. Both you and the other person in that thread was starting to cross the line in your back and forth.

What's the difference? Do I have to word it as "I don't want to talk to you anymore" rather than "I don't want to be spoken to by you anymore"? Pedantry to the point of inanity.

AeroWaffle3 votes

{quoted}

What's the difference? Do I have to word it as "I don't want to talk to you anymore" rather than "I don't want to be spoken to by you anymore"? Pedantry to the point of inanity.

Telling them to stop talking to you is a demand, telling them that you don't want to talk to them is statement of your desire.

All you have to do to disengage from a argument is stop replying. If you feel like it's necessary for them to know that you'll not reply anymore you can just tell them that.

AntiSJW4 votes

Dude you're fighting a losing battle- they are non paid volunteers and you can't make Riot stop them from being bias or bad at their jobs

GreenKnight3 votes

[deleted]

saltran1 votes

Maybe the line is blurred and it's needed to talk about moderation on the Boards in a civil way.

ModThe Djinn4 votes

{quoted}

Maybe the line is blurred and it's needed to talk about moderation on the Boards in a civil way.

There are definite grey areas in the rules. Some are by design (because when we have super clearly defined rules people always try to violate them in spirit but not in letter) and some are things we're interested in finding ways to clarify.

KFCeytron2 votes

[{quoted}](name=The Djinn,realm=NA,application-id=6heBIhQc,discussion-id=q6qFEMfA,comment-id=000100000001,timestamp=2019-01-29T22:47:52.950+0000)

There are definite grey areas in the rules. Some are by design (because when we have super clearly defined rules people always try to violate them in spirit but not in letter) and some are things we're interested in finding ways to clarify.

Maybe you could super clearly define them for me so that I can try to follow them in spirit and in letter. This whole "you implied that you didn't find someone's post valuable, so talking to them means we're gonna ban you one day" business doesn't work. Boards rules are like a minefield.

ModThe Djinn3 votes

{quoted}

Maybe you could super clearly define them for me so that I can try to follow them in spirit and in letter. This whole "you implied that you didn't find someone's post valuable, so talking to them means we're gonna ban you one day" business doesn't work. Boards rules are like a minefield.

Basically, if something in your post is meant to provoke or put down another poster, don't post it. Things like "I shouldn't be surprised, 'cause a lot of people are easily scammed" when engaging in a discussion or suggesting someone learn how to make a valuable contribution are definitely passive aggressive comments meant to provoke or put down the other party.

KFCeytron1 votes

[{quoted}](name=The Djinn,realm=NA,application-id=6heBIhQc,discussion-id=q6qFEMfA,comment-id=00010000000100000000,timestamp=2019-01-29T23:04:44.879+0000)

Basically, if something in your post is meant to provoke or put down another poster, don't post it. Things like "I shouldn't be surprised, 'cause a lot of people are easily scammed" when engaging in a discussion or suggesting someone learn how to make a valuable contribution are definitely passive aggressive comments meant to provoke or put down the other party.

Oh. So, these would not be okay? They seem a bit more directly rude than "humans are bad at risk assessment and determining randomness."

Uh, ok it is the last time I waste my time on you. I did explain the task I need, if you are unable to read over 1 sentence it is your problem. Now stop trolling me.

Because I was told that this was a disengagement from the conversation, and therefore acceptable - plus, there was something more rude afterward which got removed, so these relatively less rude sentences were an acceptable way to disengage.

KFCeytron1 votes

[{quoted}](name=The Djinn,realm=NA,application-id=6heBIhQc,discussion-id=q6qFEMfA,comment-id=000100000001,timestamp=2019-01-29T22:47:52.950+0000)

There are definite grey areas in the rules. Some are by design (because when we have super clearly defined rules people always try to violate them in spirit but not in letter) and some are things we're interested in finding ways to clarify.

Did you notice that the person who originally baited me into this situation has followed me to this thread to say such wonderful things as "What's so hard to understand?" and "i'm not writing essays about my removed comments"? And those posts aren't removed for Harassment. Is that not Harassment? Following someone around to jeer them?

EDIT: And he's continuing after I told him to stop.

Awf Meta2 votes

Looks like you stumbled into some truth.

You are close to the point of no return. These moderators will hold a grudge for a very long time.

I recommend you talk with Riot before you decide to take the plunge. Open a support ticket. I think Riot Keyru is in charge of the volunteer moderator program.

Binding Eclipse1 votes

???

saltran1 votes

But hey comments with this in it are ok for Mods

Ye while at that im taking every scutle every drake herald pushing towers and my reatrded laners either 1 is a feeding pice of trash or b a feeding pice of trash......no

But that somehow it's not "being a jerk" and it's not that mods haven't seen the comment cuz I reported it hours ago so at least one of them has sure checked the comment.

His laners are players, so him calling them:

"piece of trash or b a feeding piece of crash"

Should count as going against the rule of not being a jerk right ?

And yet comments as "Check OP username" or "Dae Duskblade bad give me upvotes" are removed for "being a jerk"

That rule it's just too vague and it can be and it's used by mods here on a flawled way.

ModThe Djinn5 votes

{quoted}But hey comments with this in it are ok for Mods

That first one definitely doesn't look okay. It may be still in the queue, or it may not have been reported. I'll check.

Update: Handled. No one had gotten around to that one yet.

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