User deletion of posts

rujitra·Feb 18, 2019·18 votes·7,503 views

While I generally agree that a player who provides consent to a thread should have the right to delete a thread they post, I think that there comes a point where “public interest” (for lack of a better overarching term) trumps that right.

As an example, if a player posts a thread suggesting a change that gets a lot of upvotes, a Rioter responds with the internal reasoning as to why they choose not to make that change, the thread has likely already been catalogued by Google and other search engines. The Rioter’s response may very well provide valuable insight that would be lost if the thread is lost.

The recent case (will not reference exactly but the moderators should know, is a prime example. The Rioter’s response provided valuable insight as to how they evaluate cases of trolling/griefing that aren’t obvious enough for the automated system to evaluate. However, those responses (or at least the verification that they came from Riot) are lost now as the thread was allowed to be deleted.

My suggestion is that a player who deletes a thread that has a valuable Riot (or community, but this is rarer) response should have the thread undeleted, the thread should be locked, and the content of the original post (and any quotes of it) replaced with a statement stating that the OP has requested the thread be removed. This has a precedent in that when a comment is deleted, replies to it are not.

It’s not fair to the community or the boards to allow valuable insight to be removed just because someone regrets posting the prompting thread.

32 Comments

ModThe DjinnFeb 18, 201912 votes

There's a main problem here -- we cannot currently stop a thread from being deleted. Do we manually undelete it every time they delete it? That's awkward. Do we threaten a punishment if they keep deleting it? That's manual effort and extremely heavy-handed. In some cases forcibly leaving it up is the same as forcing public shame upon a poster and -- although there are arguments that that might be deserved in some cases -- it's something we technically like to avoid.

I will say that there's some active discussion at the moment on how to handle this sort of situation going forward, and we'll keep you guys updated.

rujitraFeb 18, 20191 votes

It could be manually undeleted, the content of the original post removed, and if they delete it again they are punished. I don't think that's too much work but maybe it is

ModmichaelchanFeb 18, 20192 votes

agree

Jo0oFeb 20, 20192 votes

What's the worst-case scenario of removing the functionality of thread deletion entirely?

AeroWaffleFeb 18, 20198 votes

Along with the OP's suggestion, while we're on the topic of thread trolling prevention there probably should be at least some sort of visible indication that a post has been edited by the user and when the edit was made.

Just a little timestamp that says something like;

last edited 2/18/2019 2:32pm

Silent GravityFeb 18, 20195 votes

This proposal has my full support.

Hellmaximus1Feb 18, 20192 votes

The amount of Riot Tantrum post that are now long gone is heartbreaking, mainly because it answer a lot of question people kept asking about the IFS.

The only person I know who has a copy of important IFS related Riot Tantrum posts is CEye's discord who has a room filled with SS of them.

But other than that, your SOoL.

KFCeytronFeb 18, 20192 votes

I support a user being able to delete a thread that's prompted arguments, ill will, etc., but I draw the line at deleting official communications from the company. An ordinary user's permission to delete a thread they've posted should be automatically revoked after the thread gets a Riot response, with exceptions evaluated on a case-by-case basis.

That said, deleted threads are still visible to their creator, as well as to mods, so would it be possible for such threads like the one this thread is talking about to be exhumed in some way, and a summary of the events (with Riot response) posted in a new thread?

Jo0oFeb 20, 20191 votes

Current controversy aside, I still don't follow why a thread creator should have that right.

I can't think of the proper dystopian author to reference at the moment, but surely the ability to unilaterally declare that a disagreement never happened is unhealthy for a community, right? One day I'm engaged in a debate or argument, the next day all evidence has vanished and I'm not even 100% sure who I was talking to. Why is that okay?

KFCeytronFeb 21, 20191 votes

{quoted}

Current controversy aside, I still don't follow why a thread creator should have that right.

I can't think of the proper dystopian author to reference at the moment, but surely the ability to unilaterally declare that a disagreement never happened is unhealthy for a community, right? One day I'm engaged in a debate or argument, the next day all evidence has vanished and I'm not even 100% sure who I was talking to. Why is that okay?

It puts the "forget" into "forgive and forget."

Jo0oFeb 21, 20192 votes

Well shit, other people getting to choose what I forget is downright Orwellian.

KFCeytronFeb 21, 20191 votes

{quoted}

Well shit, other people getting to choose what I forget is downright Orwellian.

How is it Orwellian to drop an argument? What if someone you were arguing with stopped responding to your posts - would they be "getting to choose what you argue about"?

Jo0oFeb 21, 20191 votes

Dude, if you want to leave an argument, leave an argument. That's a completely different thing. I have no problem with somebody deciding to drop an issue. I have a problem with them deleting my posts in doing so.

KFCeytronFeb 21, 20191 votes

{quoted}

Dude, if you want to leave an argument, leave an argument. That's a completely different thing. I have no problem with somebody deciding to drop an issue. I have a problem with them deleting my posts in doing so.

If someone leaves the argument and you don't post anymore, the posts you would've made don't exist. If they stay in the argument, you respond, and they delete the thread, the posts you made no longer exist.

Jo0oFeb 21, 20191 votes

I don't understand your logic. If you stop talking to me right this moment, my posts will still be here. They don't vanish just because you're not interested in continuing the discussion. Others can read them or comment on them, and I can refer back to them

KFCeytronFeb 21, 20191 votes

{quoted}

I don't understand your logic. If you stop talking to me right this moment, my posts will still be here. They don't vanish just because you're not interested in continuing the discussion. Others can read them or comment on them, and I can refer back to them

But the posts you would've made if I hadn't stopped talking to you right now would never have existed. And if rujitra hadn't posted this thread, none of these posts would exist - which is the same state that we'd find ourselves in if he decided to delete this thread right now.

Jo0oFeb 21, 20191 votes

So what, we owe the thread creators? That's twisted.

KFCeytronFeb 21, 20191 votes

{quoted}

So what, we owe the thread creators? That's twisted.

I don't know where you got that idea from my post. If you're going to strawman that hard, we're done here.

Jo0oFeb 21, 20192 votes

I'm not interested in a strawman, but your logic is frustrating and elusive to me. Maybe "owe" is the wrong word, but if that's not what you're getting at, I'm not sure what the point is. Absolutely, we'd not be having this conversation if not for Rujitra's post. Why does that matter? My opinions are not Rujitra's content. Why should he be able to remove them?

I'm trying to present to you how I'm made to feel by the way these deletions are handled. You're not offering me any sort of empathy or rationale for why my experiences are trumped by other benefits.

KFCeytronFeb 21, 20191 votes

{quoted}

I'm not interested in a strawman, but your logic is frustrating and elusive to me. Maybe "owe" is the wrong word, but if that's not what you're getting at, I'm not sure what the point is. Absolutely, we'd not be having this conversation if not for Rujitra's post. Why does that matter? My opinions are not Rujitra's content. Why should he be able to remove them?

I'm trying to present to you how I'm made to feel by the way these deletions are handled. You're not offering me any sort of empathy or rationale for why my experiences are trumped by other benefits.

If someone is trying to tell you they're done with a conversation, the appropriate response is to leave them alone, rather than responding to their most recent message in order to have the last word. Continuing to infringe on someone's boundaries can constitute Harassment and isn't tolerated.

Jo0oFeb 21, 20191 votes

I was trying to clarify that I wasn't strawmanning you. Your desire to leave the conversation seemed to be contingent on that. I thought we were attempting to find a common ground, not arguing with each other. If you feel harassed, I apologize.

RebeccaUCuberFeb 18, 20191 votes

yeah i agree with this. this prevents some wasted copy-paint posts that touch The same arguments. The boards aren't a complain's nest only dont you think? We could add so much content and ideas...

gileskdFeb 18, 20191 votes

how about a megathread that we keep pinned to the top?

did a rioter make a comment that a good majority needs to see? add it to the thread. did we add something to the thread and has no issues for a year? archive it so we can keep it small as possible

Jo0oFeb 20, 20191 votes

For whatever it's worth, I don't think this goes far enough. Being able to delete an entire thread should be at the sole discretion of moderators and Rioters.

rujitraFeb 20, 20191 votes

I think there is some benefit to providing the players with the consent to have their own content removed. While it’s usually not true on the internet, I believe that people should maintain ownership of their content. They shouldn’t lose their ownership rights, including the right to remove their content.

Jo0oFeb 20, 20191 votes

I've heard this before, but I don't understand how the entire thread is "their content".

You made this thread. The opening post is your content. Is my response here also your content? Is Djinn's pinned response your content? Is the resultant discussion your content, regardless of how deeply you participate in that discussion?

rujitraFeb 20, 20191 votes

There unfortunately is not an easy way for an OP to delete their content while leaving the rest of the thread up. Hence the solution I propose, where the thread would be edited by a moderator with a message that the OP requested it to be removed.

Jo0oFeb 20, 20191 votes

Well, something's not adding up then. I hear that it's a technical hurdle that can't be fixed (I'm no programmer, but I've been on plenty of other forums where this is not at all the case), and I hear that it's a tool intentionally given to thread creators, for some reason.

It would seem awfully convenient that the insurmountable technical difficulty of blocking thread deletion should also fit perfectly into Riot's policy concerning thread and content ownership.

rujitraFeb 20, 20191 votes

There are many reasons to delete a thread even after it has responses, and many of those are valid - ex: typos/missed information, wrong board, etc.

It’s also a technical hurdle to my understanding that they aren’t able to limit the amount of time the delete button shows up on a thread for its owner.

Jo0oFeb 20, 20191 votes

{quoted}

There are many reasons to delete a thread even after it has responses, and many of those are valid - ex: typos/missed information, wrong board, etc.

Can you clarify this? I don't see how a typo or missed information couldn't be solved with an edit, or at worst a deletion of individual posts. If you missed information or made an error somewhere in this thread, you can solve it without deleting it. As for wrong forums, if the thread is truly within the wrong place, the mods can and should handle that anyway.

It’s also a technical hurdle to my understanding that they aren’t able to limit the amount of time the delete button shows up on a thread for its owner.

As a layman in terms of forum programming, I can only reiterate that every other forum I've been a participant on finds a way to handle this functionality. Why not just do away with the "delete" button altogether? I'm sure we've both been on forums where posters may only edit, not delete. You can still effectively delete your own posts by editing them away.

rujitraFeb 20, 20191 votes

To my knowledge a link cannot be edited once posted, and editing the post removes the link altogether. I could be wrong on this, but a typo in the link (or in a post with a link) would not be editable.

I see no reason that someone shouldn’t be allowed to self-delete and repost in the correct board instead of waiting for the mods to delete.

Every forum I’ve been a part of does too. Those all use vB or other softwares that are public and continually updated, whereas the boards are proprietary.

Jo0oFeb 20, 20191 votes

"Good talk, gonna delete this thread now".

That's how a PB discussion just ended. I now have no way of checking who I was speaking with, what I said, what was said to me, who agreed with what, etc. Rujitra, you were fairly active in the thread as well, but now your posts are gone for ever. Bet you feel kinda silly wasting your time like that. I sure do.

How the fuck is this healthy for a forum?