Prandine, you still don't get it.

Keldjur·Aug 13, 2018·2 votes·1,683 views

My thread got locked down and Pradine wrote a msg and it looke like this: It's clear at this point that this thread is going nowhere. Since the OP is unwilling to listen to opposing views without resorting to the Moving the Goalposts fallacy (and because nothing more can be said that hasn't already been stated here) this thread is now locked.

Feel free to contact us at the Moderation Discord or at Discuss the Boards for any questions, comments or concerns about this. Thank you and have a good day.

P.S. Here are some descriptions about the Moving the Goalposts fallacy: Moving the goalposts is an informal fallacy in which evidence presented in response to a specific claim is dismissed and some other (often greater) evidence is demanded. That is, after an attempt has been made to score a goal, the goalposts are moved to exclude the attempt. The problem with changing the rules of the game is that the meaning of the result is changed, too.

Moving the Goalposts (also known as: gravity game, raising the bar, argument by demanding impossible perfection [form of])

Description: Demanding from an opponent that he or she address more and more points after the initial counter-argument has been satisfied refusing to concede or accept the opponent’s argument.

Prandine Im sad to inform you that you did miss the entire point of the thread, this becuase you have not read or understood the comments and points I made in this thread.

The point of the thread is that People in here, people who work with and at riot assumes a lot and they are often wrong. Like you when you locked down my thread due to your own missunderstanding. I believe I stated ~20 times that it's important to listen to one another and its also important to allow others to explain themselves. You have to allow yourself to listen and get things explained. Just like me, and every other rioter you are not perfect, you make misstakes, just like me and everyone else. This is why it is very important that when you are unsure you ask. You dont judge, you dont take actions before you know for certain what's going on.... This is not what happen.

I have also previously explained and showed all of you how I was banned from these forums due to a missunderstanding where I was trying to end a loss-spree by asking others on how to end it, you decided and interpeted this as me braging about how much Im loosing and that I was encouraging others to lose games as well <-- This is what happen cuase I talked to you about it, you never unbanned me and never apologized for your assumptions that turned out to be bad, really bad.

https://s26.postimg.cc/3s56ad1dl/zenmonk3.png https://s26.postimg.cc/9hleuo7jr/zenmonk4.png

Also I was gold 4 at that time (you can look it up) and in fact got up to gold 3. Just like this thread is about you assuming the worst, that's what happen here. Your co-worker assumed the worst about me and in fact did call me a liar... no sorry... That I could not be trusted because I had not been "telling the truth" about my rank and what I experienced.

So while you believe I can't be trusted I have bout 50 cases where you have been lying to or about me <-- With evidence. You have yet to prove that I have lied to you once. <-- Feel free to prove it.

I was also banned in game for a week I believe. What had happen? I called someones idéa of running in to people 1v5 and dying "moronic". What happen? Your system locked on to me, someone reported me and when I go and ask you what had happen you claim I had called people morons... NO RIOT AND NO PRADINE Im not calling anyone a moron, Im calling a play/idea moronic. <-- And if we are no longer allowed to say that a play or idea is bad... then wtf riot? Then it becomes a game where the the team with the highest average age wins most of the time (I made a thread explaining this previously)

What you wrote was in fact wrong: " Since the OP is unwilling to listen to opposing views without resorting to the Moving the Goalposts fallacy " This is not what happen at all. If the thread is still visable for others anyone can go in there and see that this is not the case. Look at the comments in there and please tell me 1 opposing view, you won't find a single one and that is the point I was trying to make. I believe 2 people understood the thread and commented on it. It was not problem for them to engage in a discussion but it was ruined by a lot of off-topic comments that I requested be removed from my thread... but once again you did not listen/honor this request.

I have not at all moved the goalpost and for you to interpet and translate my actions in to this "moving goalposts" you are in fact supporting the points I made in my previous thread, that you assume, all of you assumes and you assume the worst in others. This is why you must allow others to explain themselves, not everyone is evil and not everyone you punish did something wrong. If in fact you were to ask me I could have explained what was going on. You chose you assume the worst and lock the thread... So why could you not have contacted me and we could have talked about it rather then you assuming the worst,locking my thread and then giving me this msg that I believe doesnt help me at all... well it does cause it proves my point that you are not really listening/understanding what people are trying to tell you.

"Demanding from an opponent that he or she address more and more points after the initial counter-argument has been satisfied refusing to concede or accept the opponent’s argument." <- This also never happen. I ask of you to give exampels where you think this happen... Cause as I prevously stated noone is perfect and I can be wrong to, I now allow you to explain to me where this happen in my previous thread.

"P.S. Here are some descriptions about the Moving the Goalposts fallacy: Moving the goalposts is an informal fallacy in which evidence presented in response to a specific claim is dismissed and some other (often greater) evidence is demanded." <-- This is kinda surreal to be honest... cause if anything others were moving goalposts against me if you are to define it like this. Tantram said X . I claim that tantram is wrong and he should prove/show that X is correct... In my previous thread people now comes up to me demanding that I prove that Tantram's X isnt true... you get this I hope? Lets say you claim I stolen your appels. I say Ehh, No I didnt and you have no evidence for that "You liar!" ... Now comes along your friends and family and starts harassing me about calling you a liar... but I was not the one who made the claim in the first place. If anything this is moving goalposts or "...is dismissed and some other (often greater) evidence is demanded."

The titel of the thread was "Riot-Tantram lying, why?" The thread ends with: This thread is about Riot-Tantram and why he did lie.

Yet I find comments about my mental health, I find pictures and emotes(?) that has nothing to do with the thread. I find lies and strange remarks and people who claim really strange interpetation of the rules. And I dont find a single moderator doing anything about any of this, even after reporting a comment like 10 times.

What I dont find is a single open question <-- And that is what this thread is about.

"Feel free to contact us at the Moderation Discord or at Discuss the Boards for any questions, comments or concerns about this. Thank you and have a good day." Im sad to inform you that Im banned from your discord as well... what happen you didn't ask: A moderator demanded things of me... ohh sorry, expected things out of me like respect... and when I requested the same standards as the moderator, I was banned. I was to treat you with respect but not the other way around. <-- Pull up the log and read it yourself. So if you want to talk on discord Im here but Im still banned from your discord. Im more then willing to talk and explain myself and answer questions, so there has never been a reason to translate, intepret or assume things about me.

Once again, this thread is about you(not you personally, but everyone related to riot) assumes the worst in others. You interpet and translate their action and words with limtied context and without talking to others... This causes a lot of problems, problems that I have shown you happen to me. Real problems where you assumed the worst and did punish me for no valid reason. Like when I have a legit 10-game loss streak and is asking for help, you decides to punish me in the ticket support and in the forums. Or the game where I said "moronic" and you translate this in to "Moron" <-- This happen cause I did talk to you about it on twitter. I had to sit there explaining how someone who is acting moronic isn't a moron to deft ears.

you locked down my thread without talking to me and without understanding the situation. You allowed "trolls" or as I call them "Forum rats" (I have also given my definition for this so there is no need to assume Im calling them something of low value or anything bad at all. It has nothing to do with value only with positioning) to destroy the thread I have by not removing their comments that are either offtopic, personal attacks or just trying to provoke a reaction.

SO my only question to you (Prandine) is: Can we stop assuming the worst about each other and can we allow each other to explain themselves rather then having the other part assume the worst and then punish the other part for that missunderstandign and wrongful assumption? <-- This would remove a lot of toxicity and missunderstandings from this community.

Thank you for your time This thread is about: People related to riot assuming the worst in summoners and not allowing them to explain themselves.

I end with words from legend Riot-Lyte: "I was talking to this one kid who had been punished a lot and finally we reached out to him and asked why he acted the way he did. During the talk we came to the understanding that noone had told him(explained) that he could not do what he did and that is why he got punished... After this riot lyte made the reform cards that did lower toxicity and also traffic in to your support as not as many came to you asking why they were banned... they had a reform card that told them this.

An explanation goes a long way in the quest to understand.

4 Comments

ModThe DjinnAug 13, 20185 votes

Also, you are very much offtopic and wrong about everything.

This is a direct quote from your thread in response to a rather well-written response that addressed much of the behavior shown in your thread. This is the sort of response that makes it fairly clear to moderation that you are not actually interested in seeing any opposing view, and that the discussion is definitely shifting. You may not have agreed with that individual's perspective, but everything in his response was indeed very much relevant to the topic and the discussion at hand, and casually dismissing it as you did is indicative of an unwillingness to actually have a discussion.

While it's possible that is not your intent, moderation is not based on your intent alone, but also how your behavior appears to others on the board. The thread lock was fully appropriate, as this sort of behavior showed up in numerous instances in that thread.

KeldjurAug 13, 20181 votes

[{quoted}](name=The Djinn,realm=NA,application-id=6heBIhQc,discussion-id=ctWQVawQ,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2018-08-13T12:49:42.928+0000)

This is a direct quote from your thread in response to a rather well-written response that addressed much of the behavior shown in your thread. This is the sort of response that makes it fairly clear to moderation that you are not actually interested in seeing any opposing view, and that the discussion is definitely shifting. You may not have agreed with that individual's perspective, but everything in his response was indeed very much relevant to the topic and the discussion at hand, and casually dismissing it as you did is indicative of an unwillingness to actually have a discussion.

While it's possible that is not your intent, moderation is not based on your intent alone, but also how your behavior appears to others on the board. The thread lock was fully appropriate, as this sort of behavior showed up in numerous instances in that thread.

The djinn, understand that I dont know what you are talking about. Please direct me to that message and we can absolutly discuss if it is on topic or not... and weather or not its well written... just like I admit fault when Im wrong, will you be able to do the same?

Remember what I said about not taking things out of context.. well I cant do anything with the text you provided as I dont know the context and dont see the msgs that its referring to.

There are also no behavior in the thread, its only text. My behavior I have previously explained in other threads. If you dont know about it please ask and I explain myslf.

"This is the sort of response that makes it fairly clear to moderation that you are not actually interested in seeing any opposing view," <-- This right here is an assumption based on.. only you can tell me that.. But I can honestly say that you are wrong. I wish you were able to read my mind of feel the things I feel so you can feel for yourself that its not the case.

I believe I have made it very clear what its about, at the end of this thread: This thread is about: People related to riot assuming the worst in summoners and not allowing them to explain themselves.

"and that the discussion is definitely shifting." No its not, if you allow me to explain to you then you understand that this is no the case. I wrote at the end what this is about. I used one of your moderators as an exampel and I have used you and the way you speak to me as an exampel all the time... This because it is problematic and I go over it in this thread, I explain how I was wrongfully banned due to your missunderstanding and all you had to do to avoid this missunderstandign and my punishmend was "Can you explain?" <-- right there.

"You may not have agreed with that individual's perspective, but everything in his response was indeed very much relevant to the topic and the discussion at hand" No it was not and that is becuase you have not understood the problem. I know this cause I have been telling you the problem like 30 times now and you keep doing it and ignoring everything I say about it. Its about you (not you personally, but you as in a group that are related to this place) not allowing people to explain themselves. You assume the worst in others and punish them and treat them from the way you assumed about them... I have done the research and I try my best to explain it to you and to everyone related to riot. So far its not going very well, but rather my points are being justified and confirmed all the time... without anyone but me understanding it.

" and casually dismissing it as you did is indicative of an unwillingness to actually have a discussion." Where was I unwilling to have an actuall discussion? <-- Please show me cause I dont believe this is the case. I do however believe that you should remove off-topic comments to help the people who are in the thread to filter out the good information from the provokations and flooding... But this is what I believe. Im not perfect and I might have miss something, thats why I ask of you to show me so I can see and understand. <--

"While it's possible that is not your intent, moderation is not based on your intent alone, but also how your behavior appears to others on the board. " <-- This is important and this is why I brought up to you about "forum rats". Remember what I told you about this? "IT feels like you have removed anyone with an opposing view, left are the forum rats that trying to get upvotes by being provokative in threads with downvotes" ... we have an expresison in sweden "Kick in open doors" it means to complain about things that everyone knows is bad... This is a culture you have in here and you have successfully removed almost everyone who doesnt fit this culture. This is why you are allowed to go offtopic, even talk about someones mental health....but "call someone out for lying" will get me banned...

"The thread lock was fully appropriate, as this sort of behavior showed up in numerous instances in that thread." What behavior are you talking about? And also... from Sweden again: story time. Filip & fredrik are tv-hosts and they make lots of different programs with different subject. This scenario: Filip goes back to kindergarten and is "acting" like a child (the entire program is about childhood) ... sometime in to the sketch or whatever you call it there is the "story time" and Fredrik picks up a book and read for the children and the one pretendign to be a child... HE is not agood story teller and he also told it somewhat wrong... To my point: Filip then lifts his arm liek you do in school to ask a question and says "Who here thinks Fredrik is strange up with an hand" and every kid does it.... You see my point?

In that (or this) place there is a culture, here you have one and in the kindergarten you got one. Children logic = Everyone that doesnt act like a child is strange. Here... Anyone with an alternative view or idea should be provoked, harassed and threatened... dont forget the personal attacks! Its the same pattern but different place and different times with different individuals.

I can also show you the picture I have of a lol player saying "I only flamed you cause everyone else did" <-- Want that one? This is what is happening and I believe I have previously made a thread about this as well... but it feels like everything I say is ignored , taken out of context and then used against me trying to provoke me <-- this is what it feels like and looks like from my end.

ModPrandineAug 13, 20182 votes

{quoted}

The djinn, understand that I dont know what you are talking about. Please direct me to that message and we can absolutly discuss if it is on topic or not... and weather or not its well written... just like I admit fault when Im wrong, will you be able to do the same? Remember what I said about not taking things out of context.. well I cant do anything with the text you provided as I dont know the context and dont see the msgs that its referring to.

The quote comes from this post here: https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/player-behavior-moderation/OiNysnZn-riot-tantram-lying-why?show=nested&comment=00010001

While the comment you made that statement towards might arguably be off-topic, it's still the sort of attitude and behavior you displayed throughout your thread where the moment someone debunks your arguments you claim that they're wrong and off-topic when they're not. This is no way to have any actual discussion and is why your thread was locked.

There are also no behavior in the thread, its only text. My behavior I have previously explained in other threads. If you dont know about it please ask and I explain myslf.

Cop-out excuse. We're talking about the behavior you've displayed in that thread here which involves the Moving the Goalposts fallacy.

Moving the goalposts is an informal fallacy in which evidence presented in response to a specific claim is dismissed and some other (often greater) evidence is demanded. That is, after an attempt has been made to score a goal, the goalposts are moved to exclude the attempt. The problem with changing the rules of the game is that the meaning of the result is changed, too.

Moving the Goalposts (also known as: gravity game, raising the bar, argument by demanding impossible perfection [form of])

Description: Demanding from an opponent that he or she address more and more points after the initial counter-argument has been satisfied refusing to concede or accept the opponent’s argument.

While that may not have been your intent it was still clear to pretty much everyone viewing the thread and following along with the conversations present in it.

"This is the sort of response that makes it fairly clear to moderation that you are not actually interested in seeing any opposing view," <-- This right here is an assumption based on.. only you can tell me that.. But I can honestly say that you are wrong. I wish you were able to read my mind of feel the things I feel so you can feel for yourself that its not the case.

I believe I have made it very clear what its about, at the end of this thread: This thread is about: People related to riot assuming the worst in summoners and not allowing them to explain themselves.

Is that so? Because if you ask me I got no such impression out of any of your multiple multi-paragraph arguments. If you have a point to make then make it without hiding it in a needless essay-basically simplify it down.

"and that the discussion is definitely shifting." No its not, if you allow me to explain to you then you understand that this is no the case. I wrote at the end what this is about. I used one of your moderators as an exampel and I have used you and the way you speak to me as an exampel all the time... This because it is problematic and I go over it in this thread, I explain how I was wrongfully banned due to your missunderstanding and all you had to do to avoid this missunderstandign and my punishmend was "Can you explain?" <-- right there.

The majority of people were being respectful to you. You just don't like what they said because they disagreed with you, and because they disagreed with you you called them liars and off-topic and reported their posts because of it. That is not them being disrespectful that is YOU being disrespectful.

To sum it up your thread was locked because intentional or not your behavior was indicative of only wanting Yesman answers, and when you didn't get them you dismissed opposing arguments and attempts for a reasonable discussion by claiming they were off-topic and lying while often going off-topic yourself. This also applied to posts that debunked your arguments. Both are indicative of the Moving the Goalposts fallacy. If you did have a point to make you made it very difficult to make out by posting numerous essay-like posts and false accusations.

In the future if you have a point to make then try to make it in 1-3 sentences if possible rather than bury it in essay-like posts. Also, don't disregard opposing viewpoints simply because they disagree with you and/or successfully debunk your argument. If you want respect you need to give respect, which was barely if at all present in your original thread.

EDIT: Adding this part in because I feel it's very relevant here. To quote Wizard101 Central member Magus Zeppers:

Ever read or hear of the story "The boy that cried wolf", these "this is that last straw" threads follow the same pattern.

Thats what I get from many of these complaints. I dont mean to attack anyone, but when they themselves attack (You cant tell me you werent attacking others* on the matter), why should they expect anything in return?

...

As far as "educated" opinions, you got them. You just cant handle them because they did not fall in line with your beliefs. Welcome to the real world.

I try to be "civil". And I respect your opinion when stated in a reasonable fashion (not necessarily a rant screaming im gonna quit). Understand that its a two way street.

You yourself lashed out regarding "educated" responses. This in itself shows a lack of respect to others, simply because they did not agree with you.

K A R M A

*edited to fit more in line with this discussion.

PaíntchipAug 13, 20181 votes

Dude. Too mich words this late in morning, but what I did get through is just a description of everyone on these boards especially the moderators. This also includes rioters, ever try sending a ticket?