Rework ideas are by core standart creations...
How come they are not considered as such? No, this is not about a removed threat, wish it was, but it piqued my curiosity because this is a first time for me. I mean no shame, but through what reasoning are selfmade reworks considered gameplay aspects rather than concepts and creations?
Best of wishes to everyone, and Special thanks to any answers given!
ModWuks4 votesI think I know a few folks who are a bit more qualified to answer this question than I am. Let me ping them to give their ideas on the entire creations hub of the Boards! BRB!
Eternal Torment2 voteswuks commented on my post T_T
my life is complete, thank you sir.
ModCaptainMårvelous2 votesSo here's my assumption, and feel free to disagree:
New champions, art, fan fiction, etc. are things that (while related to league) are completely unrelated to the actual game. Sure, you can involve other champions but this is mostly core and related to a new creation that you've made for the world of League.
Comparatively, a rework proposal/concept is editing or changing something that already exists in the game. Suggesting you change Urgot's Q, for example, means you're thinking about Urgot's balance and design as he exists in the game. You're also seeking to provoke constructive criticism about Urgot as he is in the game now and seeing what other players (and possibly Rioters) think about Urgot as he exists in the game now.
Concepts/Creations seeks to make something new. Gameplay seeks to iterate on something that already exists, even if it involves scrapping 99% of what is currently there.
Eternal Torment1 votesah
certainly makes a lot of sense, now that i give it a thought
thanks bro! i did not really see it like that until now. it was quite a shocker honestly that i proposed some good changes but it was suddenly gone XD now that i have clarification i can rest
[slayer-pantheon-thumbs]
ModThe Djinn2 votes[{quoted}](name=Click R for Win,realm=EUW,application-id=6heBIhQc,discussion-id=cN7fKxAm,comment-id=00010000,timestamp=2017-05-17T21:26:48.282+0000)now that i have clarification i can rest
Just to clarify further -- this isn't a certainty. It's something we're actively discussing with the volunteers, and that's Captain's personal opinion.
The trick is that there's a line somewhere between balance tweaks and creative reworks, and finding that line is important. We don't want to see Concepts & Creations flooded with minor kit alterations, but it's tricky to find where, or if, that line should be drawn. I personally feel that a full rework or even a majority rework qualifies as a creative concept, and belongs in Concepts & Creations, but it's something that we and the volunteers will have to discuss...and get input on from the Community.
Eternal Torment1 votessounds very reasonable, again, now that i think about it
nami tf1 votesI see a "rework" as a gameplay-shattering change to an existing champion to the point that their playstyle becomes noticeably different to the player and the spectator. By extension, a change of playstyle is when something about their lore-related thematic play pattern - usually mechanical but also includes play style - changes hopefully for the healthier and more appreciative - e.g. Poppy (character and kit change), Warwick (kit change), Sion maybe, and hopefully the product of the upcoming Urgot rework. Other reworked champions do not really fit this criterion, since either their lore remains untouched except for some added detail or update due to the death of the Institute of War, or their new kits weren't all that different (e.g. Fiora, Yorick, and Taric). For example, Fiora's ult change was simply "let's turn it from a multi-target target point-and-click ability to a single-target debuff designed to fit her character better as a duelist", which would thus classify itself not as a rework, but more of a "coldfix", in contrast to the term "hotfix".
There is a perceptible difference between "let's update the playstyle of a champion as our design philosophies involve" and "we didn't design our champion to allow its players to feel like they are the character, so we're changing aspects of it so the vicarious experience can be attainable". It's like the difference between editing and composing, both of which I'm doing in these paragraphs to give you a somewhat readable comment post. So, let whatever involves composition be placed in its appropriate place: Concepts & Creations.
ModThe Djinn1 votes[{quoted}](name=Oppy Poppy,realm=NA,application-id=6heBIhQc,discussion-id=cN7fKxAm,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2017-05-18T22:20:14.623+0000)There is a perceptible difference between "let's update the playstyle of a champion as our design philosophies involve" and "we didn't design our champion to allow its players to feel like they are the character, so we're changing aspects of it so the vicarious experience can be attainable". It's like the difference between editing and composing, both of which I'm doing in these paragraphs to give you a somewhat readable comment post. So, let whatever involves composition be placed in its appropriate place: Concepts & Creations.
I see your point, but I'd also put forth a challenge: is the creative act of designing or seriously editing a kit a work of creative design? As an amateur game designer I'd argue that improving a kit to match an existing fantasy is an art for in its own right. While I'll absolutely agree that simply tweaking numbers is not a "concept" or a "creation," it seems the act of, say, entirely redefining an ability of a character -- whether it be editing (Fiora/Yorick/Taric) or "composing" (Poppy) requires the same level of creativity and the same creative talents. Sometimes it actually requires more creativity to innovate within a constrained ruleset (i.e. keep this character's personality and make their mechanics match) than it does to reboot entirely.
Your thoughts?
nami tf1 votesYour "redefining an ability" is what I'd call "coldfixing", which stands differently in my mind than in yours most likely. My idea of "redefining an ability" is changing its nature (e.g. single target becomes a skillshot like Poppy's Q change). Within that change, the champion's identify and overall playstyle is still kept (if it weren't for the ult change Poppy also got). Generally, coldfixes are done to promote more fun and healthier gameplay in the long run. No matter what different elos think, designing a character - pre-existing or otherwise - is a form of art in and of itself like you said. My standard of beauty is that two equally skilled players and teams have more or less a 50-50 chance of winning against the other, and champions provide the artistic flair found in the means of meeting the victorious end - tactics and strategy.
In case you can't tell, I'm a chess player too.
You're an amateur game designer? That's great! I've been working on my idea for a MOBA for a while now, and could use someone to bounce ideas off of.
ModThe Djinn1 votesMy idea of "redefining an ability" is changing its nature (e.g. single target becomes a skillshot like Poppy's Q change).
See, I'd argue the idea of taking "smack one guy for %health magic damage" and turning it into "smack an area, which then explodes again after a short duration" effectively redefines not only the ability, but the entire playstyle AROUND that ability, which requires creativity and a new concept of what the champion inherently is. It means that you're able to look at what the character is, envisioning what it COULD be within that concept, and executing to improve it to match the fantasy.
You're an amateur game designer? That's great! I've been working on my idea for a MOBA for a while now, and could use someone to bounce ideas off of.
Always happy to take a look. And I'm actually working on breaking into the professional field -- keep getting interviews, and often into the final round, but I haven't quite landed it yet. Speaking of, Riot interviews are BRUTAL. And fun. But mostly brutal. :P
nami tf1 votesTrue, but I'd also argue that the flow of change is one-way: changing a playstyle may not change the character's identity, but changing a character's identity may very well change its playstyle. Pantheon is an "artisan of war" but his playstyle is basically "can you live after a combo, a few autos with potential crits, and maybe ignite?" Nobody needs to think like an artisan to do well with him, wherein lies my rub. In this case, the kit doesn't go well with the character's identity, and warrants a potential rework. I've thought up ideas where the spear becomes a skillshot and his Heartseeker Strike because his passive, where he conditionally crits as a reward for playing the champion well. That's just one example.
~
I'm in the very preliminary stages of design, developing the characters, lores, and skillsets. I've already developed the fantasy world it'll take place in. I want my game specifically to reflect the archetypal tendencies of human psychology in its essence, so characters can be 100% relatable for at least some of the potential playerbase. Good lore-writing is welcome too though. I write as well, but I don't think it's suited for lore-writing.
Is there a way I can contact you and share Google Docs?
ModThe Djinn1 votes[{quoted}](name=Oppy Poppy,realm=NA,application-id=6heBIhQc,discussion-id=cN7fKxAm,comment-id=00020000000000000000,timestamp=2017-05-19T02:28:55.167+0000)True, but I'd also argue that the flow of change is one-way: changing a playstyle may not change the character's identity, but changing a character's identity may very well change its playstyle.
I mean, sure. But both are still, ultimately, creative works (since both lore/flavor AND mechanics are creative endeavors), and thus I feel both should be welcome in a Concepts & Creations board. :)
I'm in the very preliminary stages of design, developing the characters, lores, and skillsets. I've already developed the fantasy world it'll take place in. I want my game specifically to reflect the archetypal tendencies of human psychology in its essence, so characters can be 100% relatable for at least some of the potential playerbase. Good lore-writing is welcome too though. I write as well, but I don't think it's suited for lore-writing.
Is there a way I can contact you and share Google Docs?
I probably won't be on tonight, but if you add me in-client I could toss you an e-mail. :D
nami tf1 votes[{quoted}](name=The Djinn,realm=NA,application-id=6heBIhQc,discussion-id=cN7fKxAm,comment-id=000200000000000000000000,timestamp=2017-05-19T02:46:54.229+0000)
I mean, sure. But both are still, ultimately, creative works (since both lore/flavor AND mechanics are creative endeavors), and thus I feel both should be welcome in a Concepts & Creations board. :)
I was thinking the same. I was simply exploring the nuances.
I probably won't be on tonight, but if you add me in-client I could toss you an e-mail. :D
Sure thing, but I can't use my hotmail for some reason simply because I'm on vacation in China right now. I can use discord though.
ModThe Djinn1 votes[{quoted}](name=Oppy Poppy,realm=NA,application-id=6heBIhQc,discussion-id=cN7fKxAm,comment-id=0002000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2017-05-19T02:50:25.140+0000)Sure thing, but I can't use my hotmail for some reason simply because I'm on vacation in China right now. I can use discord though.
Works for me! Enjoy China! :)
nami tf1 votesAwesome :D
Sent you the friend request on the client. I can link the Discord whenever you're ready.