Forward discussions require forward thinking

Glamorous Rammus·Aug 31, 2019·2 votes·5,466 views

DISCLAIMER:

There are people that do appreciate and respect how Riot handles things, specifically reports. And that's awesome, we all have our own views. I believe we are all one giant brain, separated by an illusion, and truly part of a "collective consciousness", but we all have our own observations that are like independent ideas inside a single mind. Kind of a ramble of a disclaimer, but I want you to know when you read this, I actually DO value your opinions- I just hope we can all learn to value each other's and have more forward discussions, I believe we can have a better impact on what Riot needs to do if we can have better conversations with each other.

Forward Thinking:

So if you don't recognize my name, I'm pretty outspoken against "rules". I've always been labeled as "insubordinate", I just see rules as a way to restrict good-intentioned people. So when I discuss on Boards about, basically, "the rules suck"- I expect people to disagree, and state their opinions. Unfortunately, there is no discussion. When someone disagrees, they simply state the stance we already know exists and add nothing to justify the stance given. There seems to be a lack of forward thinking in many of these responses. Simply "copy pasting" the rule book doesn't add to the conversation. It actually brings the conversation backwards. Look at it like this- When someone posts about "X Rule" should not exist. A proper response is not to go backward and say "X is a rule". Saying, "X Rule should not exist", has already observed that "X is a rule". Basically, the person is saying, "X is a rule that exists, and this is why it shouldn't exist." Reposnding to that statement with "X is a rule" literally does nothing to facilitate a forward discussion, it just repeats what's already been stated.

Please, we all need to take the time to read what someone is saying. And not just to form a response. We should read the information a second time if we need to. "Read that again". And if we can see that person's perspective, it helps to always acknowledge their points before debating them if we still disagree. Myself included of course.

Ok?

16 Comments

ModUlanopoAug 31, 20198 votes

When someone posts about "X Rule" should not exist. A proper response is not to go backward and say "X is a rule". Saying, "X Rule should not exist", has already observed that "X is a rule". Basically, the person is saying, "X is a rule that exists, and this is why it shouldn't exist." Reposnding to that statement with "X is a rule" literally does nothing to facilitate a forward discussion, it just repeats what's already been stated.

At the same time, it's not helpful to exclude discussion about why a rule exists when debating whether or not that rule should exist. It's also not helpful to exclude discussion about the specifics of a rule.

GatekeeperTDSSep 1, 20194 votes

And if we can see that person's perspective, it helps to always acknowledge their points before debating them if we still disagree.

Discussion is wonderful. However, you have a history of not being open to what other people are saying, and you come off as belligerent. Be proud of your insubordination all you want, but you're fighting a losing fight against Riot's "rules." They are allowed to have their rules. No amount of bickering and arguing is going to convince a private organization that their Code of Conduct for players is bad. You are in a very, very, vocal minority.

When someone posts about "X Rule" should not exist. A proper response is not to go backward and say "X is a rule".

You don't get to dictate how other people have a discussion, just as you don't like to be told what to do.

And here's the other thing - you seem to be under the false belief that at the end of a discussion, all parties involved come away in agreement. That is not what happens in every discussion.

Glamorous RammusSep 3, 20191 votes

{quoted}

Discussion is wonderful. However, you have a history of not being open to what other people are saying, and you come off as belligerent. blah blah blah.. You start off by insulting me and somehow I'm the one who's belligerent?

AeroWaffleSep 1, 20193 votes

If the question is, "Why are my threads where I insult mods getting removed"

Then, "Personally attacking people is against the rules" is an appropriate answer. Just because the person is a mod doesn't mean the rule no longer applies.

If you feel like the board shouldn't have a rule about personally attacking people that's a different discussion.

ModPrandineSep 1, 20193 votes

Wanting to have a discussion about something is fine, provided all parties involved are actually willing to listen and be at least somewhat open to other ideas. The problem with you however is that you seem to have a "my way or the highway" type of mindset and are quick to resort to things like insults and name-calling whenever someone disagrees with you. Having a civil discussion =/= lashing out at any and all non-Yesman answers, and no discussion can be had when one or more sides are not willing to remain at least somewhat civil in the face of disagreement or opposing ideas/statements. Being against certain rules and wanting to change them is fine, but lashing out when ones way isn't immediately given is not fine.

Glamorous RammusSep 3, 20191 votes

{quoted}

Wanting to have a discussion about something is fine, provided all parties involved are actually willing to listen and be at least somewhat open to other ideas. The problem with you however is that you seem to have a "my way or the highway" type of mindset and are quick to resort to things like insults and name-calling whenever someone disagrees with you. Having a civil discussion =/= lashing out at any and all non-Yesman answers, and no discussion can be had when one or more sides are not willing to remain at least somewhat civil in the face of disagreement or opposing ideas/statements. Being against certain rules and wanting to change them is fine, but lashing out when ones way isn't immediately given is not fine.

Are you confusing me with someone?

Modl Ryden lSep 5, 20192 votes

[{quoted}](name=Glamorous Rammus,realm=NA,application-id=6heBIhQc,discussion-id=byNaeKqg,comment-id=,timestamp=2019-08-31T22:46:18.244+0000)

I just see rules as a way to restrict good-intentioned people.

If people have good intentions, then there wouldn't be a need to break any rules at all.

Anyone can have good intention if they say they have it. But it takes a level head to be able to display good intention. Mentioning you have good intentions is the equivalent of mentioning you're a nice guy. Everyone on the internet knows that the nice guy meme ultimately means they were never nice to begin with. If you have good intentions, people will pick up on it, you shouldn't have to say that you do.

So when I discuss on Boards about, basically, "the rules suck"- I expect people to disagree, and state their opinions. Unfortunately, there is no discussion. When someone disagrees, they simply state the stance we already know exists and add nothing to justify the stance given.

The discussion is in the hands of both the OP and the people who comment. If people want to participate they will participate. You shouldn't have to expect people to reply and actively converse. If someone wants to converse they will. There really isn't a way to force people to talk and people shouldn't have to be forced to talk.

Secondly, give your OP a sound argument. It shouldn't have to provoke a group of people, it shouldn't have to provoke the mods, it shouldn't have to provoke Riot. If you have to do any of those then chances are it's a rant and should belong in rant.

Please, we all need to take the time to read what someone is saying. And not just to form a response. We should read the information a second time if we need to. "Read that again". And if we can see that person's perspective, it helps to always acknowledge their points before debating them if we still disagree. Myself included of course.

This circles back to my comment on not having to provoke readers. If I feel provoked when reading an OP, I don't feel inclined to read at all and instead reply with my own thoughts and tell you about how wrong you are.

But again, not everyone is forced to read and reply to a post. If someone didn't understand what you were getting at then shrug it off and move on. Not everyone has to see eye to eye but also not everyone has to be commenting in mean spirit. Just don't be a jerk, that is all anyone is asking of anyone.

Glamorous RammusSep 6, 20191 votes

[{quoted}](name=l Ryden l,realm=NA,application-id=6heBIhQc,discussion-id=byNaeKqg,comment-id=0005,timestamp=2019-09-05T02:04:39.512+0000)

If people have good intentions, then there wouldn't be a need to break any rules at all.

I can name very specific examples proving otherwise. Rosa Parks. Gandhi. The term "civil disobedience" implies that good intentioned people break the rules.

Anyone can have good intention if they say they have it. But it takes a level head to be able to display good intention. Mentioning you have good intentions is the equivalent of mentioning you're a nice guy. Everyone on the internet knows that the nice guy meme ultimately means they were never nice to begin with. If you have good intentions, people will pick up on it, you shouldn't have to say that you do.

That's an over-generalization. In fact, we can always assume that there will be a fence and two groups divided from it. Take Rosa Parks- she had people supporting her and people fighting her. People will pick up on what they believe is right, without really considering the reality before confirming their predispositions.

The discussion is in the hands of both the OP and the people who comment. If people want to participate they will participate. You shouldn't have to expect people to reply and actively converse. If someone wants to converse they will. There really isn't a way to force people to talk and people shouldn't have to be forced to talk.

"Facilitate Civil Discussion" appears to be a rule on Boards. So, if you don't have something to add to the discussion then the comment can be removed.

But again, not everyone is forced to read and reply to a post. If someone didn't understand what you were getting at then shrug it off and move on. Not everyone has to see eye to eye but also not everyone has to be commenting in mean spirit. Just don't be a jerk, that is all anyone is asking of anyone.

Shrugging and moving on isn't a problem.

DBS RonovonSep 1, 20191 votes

Perma bans should not exist. I advocate it be a fine instead.

KFCeytronSep 1, 20192 votes

[{quoted}](name=DBS Ronovon,realm=NA,application-id=6heBIhQc,discussion-id=byNaeKqg,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2019-09-01T02:48:15.183+0000)

Perma bans should not exist. I advocate it be a fine instead.

https://i.imgur.com/AvDSnZF.png

Imperial PandaaSep 1, 20191 votes

Assumimg you use the best combination of bundles to get RP. How much is that out of curiosity?

KFCeytronSep 1, 20191 votes

[{quoted}](name=Imperial Pandaa,realm=NA,application-id=6heBIhQc,discussion-id=byNaeKqg,comment-id=000200000000,timestamp=2019-09-01T04:23:54.767+0000)

Assumimg you use the best combination of bundles to get RP. How much is that out of curiosity?

It'd be around a couple grand, but I don't know what the exact total would come to.

ModPrandineSep 1, 20192 votes

[{quoted}](name=DBS Ronovon,realm=NA,application-id=6heBIhQc,discussion-id=byNaeKqg,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2019-09-01T02:48:15.183+0000)

Perma bans should not exist. I advocate it be a fine instead.

But then people could just keep paying over and over again to get away with consistently ruining the experiences of other players-it would favor toxic whales over anything else. These players would also drive away customers, both current ones and potential new ones as well. LoL already has a reputation for having an unwelcoming community so this would just exacerbate that issue as far as I can tell.

At the end of the day while we all know you hate the very idea of permabans even you have to admit that at some point it's better to just cut your losses with someone when they've consistently proven unwilling to cooperate rather than allow them to essentially bribe their way out of trouble. To quote Kei143:

When Riot permabans someone, their philosophy is "the chances of this guy reforming isn't a whole lot, we'd rather not have him in the game". Thus in their eyes, they have already written off the toxic player as a paying client.

From a business standpoint, do they want to remove the toxic guy who has spent $500 but is causing a negative environment for 4-9 other players in every game? Those non-toxics are also spending $500 and probably will spend more, promote the game more when they are enjoying the game AND they won't cause a negative environment.

I personally think it is a fine argument to protect the ones that are paying money and aren't toxic rather than protecting the ones that may pay the same amount but are toxic.

DBS RonovonSep 1, 20191 votes

{quoted}

But then people could just keep paying over and over again to get away with consistently ruining the experiences of other players-it would favor toxic whales over anything else. These players would also drive away customers, both current ones and potential new ones as well. LoL already has a reputation for having an unwelcoming community so this would just exacerbate that issue as far as I can tell.

At the end of the day while we all know you hate the very idea of permabans even you have to admit that at some point it's better to just cut your losses with someone when they've consistently proven unwilling to cooperate rather than allow them to essentially bribe their way out of trouble. To quote Kei143:

I like discussing this topic, and you make good points. My only concern with banning toxic players is this, what about players like me who get mad and talk shit back to people sometimes and get my chat ban, but after so many times I too will get a perma, but I am not really a toxic guy. I am a serious player who wants to win, and I try to do all in my power to win and not be toxic most games, its just those few times when someone pushes me over the edge. I don't want a perma ban, when clearly I am playing with the bronze scuttlebutts that troll a lot, and I am only trash talking them after they do it to me most times. I have a lot of money invested but I can't trust that I will get to keep all my champs and skins so I am wallet shy with Riot now.

I mean, I have a valid point here, because I know I am not that bad compared to some of the shit birds that play this game, I am just out spoken and make those technical chat mistakes, but I am not a huge jerk.

This brings me into the next part of the issue, and that is the low ELO toxicity.

Why is the low elo full of shit birds, but the higher elos aren't? Its a known thing. Why does honor govern your Elo cap too? I mean it doesn't directly, but they basically put people is shit ELOs who have lost honor, and place zero honor people with other zero honor people, which means placing trolls with trolls, and having a bottom of the barrel team building process.... not fair.

But if you are "good" and do what Riot says, then you can advance in rank, because you'll be carried by nice player with honor points....

This system seems very unfair to me.

It is one thing for the game to have bans and punishments for being a dick, but a whole other to keep players down by grouping them into a bronze prison they will never escape.

ModPrandineSep 1, 20192 votes

[{quoted}](name=DBS Ronovon,realm=NA,application-id=6heBIhQc,discussion-id=byNaeKqg,comment-id=000200010000,timestamp=2019-09-01T11:23:08.073+0000)

I like discussing this topic, and you make good points. My only concern with banning toxic players is this, what about players like me who get mad and talk shit back to people sometimes and get my chat ban, but after so many times I too will get a perma, but I am not really a toxic guy. I am a serious player who wants to win, and I try to do all in my power to win and not be toxic most games, its just those few times when someone pushes me over the edge. I don't want a perma ban, when clearly I am playing with the bronze scuttlebutts that troll a lot, and I am only trash talking them after they do it to me most times.

I'm a competitive person myself, and I've had my moments where one or more players on my team frustrate me and get on my nerves.

Have I gotten mad? Of course I have. Do I let it out? You bet I do. Do I do so in the chat? No, I just yell and rage at the screen instead. Not only is it faster than typing (at least to me anyways) but it also doesn't compromise my teams chances of success. Plus as a bonus I don't run the risk of being punished for poor behavior.

None of us are perfect and we all have our limits, and I've certainly gotten an earful when I yell and rage in real life. That said I've noticed that the people who wind up being permabanned are the ones who are often unwilling to seek and/or use other outlets to vent their frustrations at. They are also often the ones who get surprised and mad when they're suddenly permabanned for their consistently poor behavior despite all the warnings they were given about it.

Even if shouting at the screen isn't an option (which depending on where one actually lives may not be) there's still stuff like punching/screaming into a pillow, squeezing a stress ball or even punching on a punching bag and stuff like that.

I have a lot of money invested but I can't trust that I will get to keep all my champs and skins so I am wallet shy with Riot now.

I personally haven't bought any gift cards myself in years. Between Riot's decision to remove Dominion and now Twisted Treeline (which I still don't fully buy their reasonings for doing so) as well as the Hextech Crafting feature I haven't really had a reason to get another one.

I mean, I have a valid point here, because I know I am not that bad compared to some of the shit birds that play this game, I am just out spoken and make those technical chat mistakes, but I am not a huge jerk.

Consistently plays a role, and like most companies while one or two slip ups here and there are usually excusable it's when it becomes a recurring theme that it's a problem. You can give all the warnings and mild punishments you want but if they're still acting up despite it all then it's usually best to just cut your losses with them and remove them for good.

This brings me into the next part of the issue, and that is the low ELO toxicity.

Why is the low elo full of shit birds, but the higher elos aren't? Its a known thing. Why does honor govern your Elo cap too? I mean it doesn't directly, but they basically put people is shit ELOs who have lost honor, and place zero honor people with other zero honor people, which means placing trolls with trolls, and having a bottom of the barrel team building process.... not fair.

I've never heard anything about honor level determining who you're matched with, so forgive me for finding it hard to believe. Mind providing a source for that info?

But if you are "good" and do what Riot says, then you can advance in rank, because you'll be carried by nice player with honor points....

This system seems very unfair to me.

It is one thing for the game to have bans and punishments for being a dick, but a whole other to keep players down by grouping them into a bronze prison they will never escape.

I don't play ranked (never have) but from what I understand if a player is stuck at X rank then it's usually because that's where their actual skill level is at. Obviously some other factors can contribute to being there but usually it's their overall skill level that's a major determining factor.

DBS RonovonSep 1, 20191 votes

The raging thing hasn't happened so far, in over a year for me. I have gotten good at just saying nothing,or asking a player if they are lagging.

Before I left the game a year ago, I vowed to not play until URF came back, well I played my promos, so there is that.... I still haven't bought anything though, but that new God King Garen skin makes me want to buy it, it looks amazing.

So, about the whole honor level thing, I found that I would be placed with people who also had no honor quite often, which led me to believe the honor system was a way to hold down mean or toxic players. Futhernore, after playing 1 promo game it placed me in Iron rank, then after winning about half of them I was placed in Bronze 4.

I guess my last rank was Bronze when I left the game, because I was totally tilted out of my mind and hated Riot at the time. I still don't like Riot and their bad decisions, but.... I found a better way to play and control the nerd rage.

Since I cannot convince anyone at Riot to listen to me, and implement a fine system in place of perma bans, I think I will just play it safe and try to advise other players on how to stay out of the penalty box, and not give up all their chances to keep their account.