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Can someone explain what is "uncivil" about this?

Hungry Cancer··2 votes·4,878 views

I just had a comment removed for "uncivil discussion" and I'd like to know how it was uncivil as I went to lengths to make sure it wasn't since I've already had cultural differences with the mods in the past insisting that I need to completely change the way I talk for the boards, and have thus been forced to resort to getting my friends from up north to write all my board comments for me due to cultural and linguistic differences. This is the comment: "Says the kid that didn't understand my reply and just said the same thing over after I'd already pointed out how wrong it was. lol" I really don't get why it would be removed for that.

30 Comments

rujitra7 votes

You start it off immediately insulting them.

You then accuse them of not understanding your reply (without explaining how it's wrong), and nowhere in your comment do you ever actually provide any discussion. Your comment was solely flaming them for what you perceive as a lack of response.

If you don't have anything to add to the conversation, don't reply. There is simply no reason you must continue "pointing out" how wrong it was - if you responded to them and they simply ignored you response, you have no reason to respond to them again unless you can further refute their points.

Hungry Cancer1 votes

How did I insult him?? I couldn't include the rest of the conversation as his comments were deleted and I didn't want to accidentally misquote. This was the only one of mine that was deleted so I just wanted to know what was harassing or uncivil about this particular post. I had explained how he was wrong in the previous comments and he just posted the same thing without addressing what I'd already stated, I commented: "apparently you didn't read my reply" to which he claimed that I was incapable of understanding, this was my reply. Unlike him I had no intent to insult him and I sincerely don't see how anything in that comment is an insult or uncivil. I do appreciate your input but this comment had no need for the full explanation as to how he was wrong as that was already done, I was only addressing his insult with this comment. I replied to him because he commented on my post and was misinformed and didn't want him giving people the wrong info. Many thanks.

rujitra7 votes

Assuming someone's age and using it as an argument in a discussion that has nothing to do with age is insulting. Not only are you stating that their behavior makes them childish (an insult), but you are literally stereotyping an age group based on what you think is a negative behavior.

It does not matter what other people do - you don't get to break the rules. As you've now seen, if multiple people break the rules back and forth in a thread, both will have their rule violating comments removed.

If your comment was only to "address his insult", then it's unnecessary. If you are addressing a post that violates the rules, there are two issues. Not only does your post not stand on its own after the other post is removed (making your post irrelevant and spam), but your post is likely to be continuing the issue itself. The proper response to an insult is to report the comment - especially given you said that you had already explained why he is wrong. It is not your responsibility to "have the last word" - if you already provided your explanation in the thread, then continuing to repeat yourself in the discussion is not only useless, but is spam and prevents other players from having active discussion by cluttering the thread with repetitive responses.

Hungry Cancer1 votes

LOL seriously? I've already been told by mods in the past that the term "kid" is not in itself considered an insult though "kiddo" apparently comes across as one; and that insults by definition require intent of which there was none, and I feel that was obvious. I'm also not assuming his age as I already know from previous comments and interactions that he is a kid. I also completely disagree with your view that I'm ""stating that their behavior makes them childish (an insult), but you are literally stereotyping an age group based on what you think is a negative behavior" and find it beyond silly but I guess that is the direction US and European culture is going nowadays. I greatly appreciate your input on the matter; I'm not from the main US and frankly the culture of offense and victimhood that is spreading up there does confuse the holy Hell out of me and I was sincerely trying not to come across as insulting which is why I had a friend "translate" my comment in the first place, but whatever I'm just going to stay away from the boards, people are just getting far too thin skinned nowadays and the mods are totally inconsistent; if this is considered an insult online then most anything else can be viewed that way as well. I'm quite glad now that I have a research lab job and only have to teach or interact with youngsters occasionally. rofl

To be fair just as an update his latest comments appear to have all been removed as he did reveal he was abusing the mod/report system, so I guess that does answer my question in itself.

Thank you for you input and help on the matter, have good night brochise.

rujitra4 votes

So, insulting isn't the best term. Uncivil is. But you asked for an explanation.

Civil discourse is something that, quite frankly, is very hard to explain clearly and concisely. Even people who study parliamentary procedure, debate, public service, international trade, and other topics that rely on cooperation and civil discourse in their daily life simply learn what civility is over time.

While "kid" may not be insulting on its own, I pointed out two reasons it's insulting in the context of your post - namely that it assumes their age based on their behavior (an insulting assumption), and that it stereotypes children to behave in a negative way (a negative stereotype).

You cannot know from previous comments that he is a child unless they themselves have admitted such - which I am almost positive they did not. You do not get to utilize your assumptions to justify themselves.

I'd also like to point out what concerns me about your post here - namely that you have a tendency to use "buzzwords" instead of thoroughly explaining yourself. The use of words such as "culture of offense and victimhood" is such that you are, once again, using stereotypes and attempting to discredit and/or argue against something simply because of those stereotypes. That is a prime example of what is not civil - attempting to justify your opinions/statements based on things such as stereotypes and assumptions, and telling others that their "culture" is wrong. This is especially true when you use terms such as "offense" - which is a perfectly legitimate belief/feeling/emotion - in a negative connotation. Saying that there is a "culture of offense" is a way you are attempting to claim you are correct because everyone is "offended" by things they should not be offended by. This is not a civil way to talk.

You go on to claim people are "thin skinned". You go on to imply that all "youngsters" are thin skinned. We are back once again to stereotypes. Would you call a coworker in your research lab job a "kid" simply because they say your machine was calibrated incorrectly? Just because you disagree with them, would you say "well, you just have a culture of perfection"? You wouldn't, right? The reason you would not go to such depths in a discussion at work is because your workplace would likely see that as reason to reprimand you for improper conduct to a coworker - i.e. it's not an example of civil discourse. There is absolutely no reason that this is limited to youngsters. While you may very well be correct that adults will tend to talk more obscenely/frankly with each other in a casual context, in the context of a "formal" discussion with someone you do not know, adults will be civil with each other.

There was furthermore not any abuse of the system here. While he certainly may have been reporting comments for any reason, the moderators would not have removed your comment had it not been incivil. Your comment was removed because it violated the rules - not because any person reported it - and in fact you have no way of knowing if a moderator removed your comment before or after a report. Moderators are not limited in their power on the boards to posts that are reported. They can and will remove any post they see that violates the rules.

To conclude this, I understand completely that you view the boards as a "casual" communication platform such as texting a friend or chatting with friends while playing the game. That is not what discussion boards/forums are. They are simply that - forums. The etymology of the word "forum" to be used to describe a website for discussion comes from the use of the word to describe meeting places for discussion, policy making, and presentation of ideas in ancient cultures - especially Rome. The prime rule in these places was that everyone remain civil - which is why they were effective as meeting places - and that if you didn't have anything new to contribute, you did not "spam" the forum with useless comments. If you're looking for something other than a forum - a place devoted to civil and serious discussion, then I encourage you to seek out and find those places. There is absolutely nothing wrong, culturally or otherwise, with the fact that other people choose to utilize this site as a forum - and it is not because of any "culture of offense and victimhood" that rules are enforced here.

KFCeytron6 votes

What if I were to reply to this thread with the following:

Says the kid that didn't understand Boards rules and just broke the same rule over after mods already pointed out how wrong he was. lol

Would you feel at all insulted? Would this post be useful or helpful? Would you be thankful that you'd gotten such a constructive reply? Would you be more likely to respond gratefully, or heatedly? Would this post resolve your question, or devolve into nasty bickering?

Hungry Cancer1 votes

Not at all if a mod actually had pointed out what was wrong which hadn't happened. The use of kid doesn't offend me in the slightest, the only thing about it is that you and I haven't interacted so you don't know me or my age which wasn't the case with the poster I responded to.

KFCeytron2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Hungry Cancer,realm=NA,application-id=6heBIhQc,discussion-id=BYiBGpaI,comment-id=00010000,timestamp=2019-12-17T19:26:04.349+0000)

Not at all if a mod actually had pointed out what was wrong which hadn't happened. The use of kid doesn't offend me in the slightest, the only thing about it is that you and I haven't interacted so you don't know me or my age which wasn't the case with the poster I responded to.

Oh, you and the person the removed comment was directed at are friends? You know how old that person is?

Hungry Cancer1 votes

We aren't friends, we've just both been active on the boards for years. Yes.

KFCeytron2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Hungry Cancer,realm=NA,application-id=6heBIhQc,discussion-id=BYiBGpaI,comment-id=0001000000000000,timestamp=2019-12-17T20:06:30.809+0000)

We aren't friends, we've just both been active on the boards for years. Yes.

Someone who is "years" older than even the minimum age to have a LoL account (13) would be around 15 or 16, which isn't much of a "kid" anymore. That is, of course, assuming that you do actually know this person's age, and assuming they really are that young, and assuming that you weren't being dismissive and rude in the removed comment. Do you really know this person's age, or did you just guess it based on your belief that anyone who disagrees with you is an ignorant, foolish child? Because the latter seems more likely, which is why your comment was removed.

Hungry Cancer1 votes

If you're younger than 25 then you are an adolescent and are therefore still a kid technically speaking. This person is still quite a bit younger than that. I don't give two shits if someone disagrees with me mate, especially if they can actually back their disagreement in which case I place a high value on their input. You're the ones making assumptions and being offensive with your categorizations that "kid" is referring to someone as an "ignorant and foolish child" I never said anything of the sort, and don't appreciate having words put in my mouth. Kid is nearly interchangeable with dude, hoss, mate, or man where I'm from; it has no attached insult or assumptions.

KFCeytron2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Hungry Cancer,realm=NA,application-id=6heBIhQc,discussion-id=BYiBGpaI,comment-id=000100000000000000000000,timestamp=2019-12-17T20:50:38.210+0000)

If you're younger than 25 then you are an adolescent and are therefore still a kid technically speaking. This person is still quite a bit younger than that. I don't give two shits if someone disagrees with me mate

Then why make a thread complaining about it? Just forget about the removal and move on. Since you don't care what anyone thinks, I'm done with this conversation. Goodbye.

Hungry Cancer1 votes

Wow When did I say that I don't care what anyone thinks? You accused me of having a "belief that anyone who disagrees with [me] is an ignorant, foolish child?" and claimed that I was being hostile because he disagreed with me which isn't even remotely the case because as I stated I couldn't care less if someone disagrees with me, I'm not going to get bent out of shape over it and generally place a high value on disagreement if its coherent. I didn't make a thread "complaining about it" either I made a thread asking exactly what rule I broke from an objective standpoint, because if I don't know why it was removed then its easy for me to make the same mistake.

CharDeeMcDenniz7 votes

i dont think many people would agree that a 25-year old is a kid...

Hungry Cancer1 votes

Their opinion on it is irrelevant though as it's a basic biological fact. The human brain remains in adolescence until ~25 with that number increasing with IQ by approximately one year per standard deviation above the mean IQ.

CharDeeMcDenniz2 votes

you saying "it's a fact" doesn't make it so, Modi gave you the link

a 25 year old is an adult by every logical metric, I'm not going to waste any more time trying to explain it to you

Maevelle1 votes

Yea you shouldn't bother. Anyone thinking they can even remotely tell someones age online is hilarious. No one really knows what our ages are other than our selves. You could be a 13 year old for all I know and claim to be 40 and even have intellectual speech that could back it up. So it's truly impossible to tell in the end.

Modi4 votes

[{quoted}](name=Hungry Cancer,realm=NA,application-id=6heBIhQc,discussion-id=BYiBGpaI,comment-id=000100000000000000000000,timestamp=2019-12-17T20:50:38.210+0000)

If you're younger than 25 then you are an adolescent and are therefore still a kid technically speaking. This person is still quite a bit younger than that.

Technically, according to what or whom? the WHO defines adolescents as ages 10-19:

There are nearly 1.2 billion adolescents (10-19 years old) worldwide.

You are mistaking youth for adolescence.

More technicalities: the WHO also says:

Age: not the whole story

Age is a convenient way to define adolescence. But it is only one characteristic that delineates this period of development. Age is often more appropriate for assessing and comparing biological changes (e.g. puberty), which are fairly universal, than the social transitions, which vary more with the socio-cultural environment.

That seems to be at odds with your assessment of age and adolescense

I don't give two shits if someone disagrees with me mate, especially if they can actually back their disagreement in which case I place a high value on their input.

especially >> except ?

You're the ones making assumptions and being offensive with your categorizations that "kid" is referring to someone as an "ignorant and foolish child" I never said anything of the sort, and don't appreciate having words put in my mouth. Kid is nearly interchangeable with dude, hoss, mate, or man where I'm from; it has no attached insult or assumptions.

Except that in the vast majority of all its uses, it is intended to be a derogatory description or pronoun. This is unique to that word when compared with the rest of the list you provided.

It does have the implication that the person to whom you are referring as "kid" is somehow less important or their opinion is less important because they are younger. Whether or not that was your intent, that was how it was, and is still, interpreted.

This is not putting words in your mouth. This is purely an assessment of the words that came out of your mouth (by proxy of the keyboard).

Hungry Cancer1 votes

In neuroscience you are considered an adolescent until ~25 that number increases with IQ however. This is something we cover in my intro classes fairly early on and is well documented; the WHO is pretty much worthless by any objective metric and shouldn't be used for information of that sort, you'd honestly be better off just checking a psychology or biology textbook. Yes I meant except but use voice to text and was driving. You may see the use of "kid" as derogatory but I have never once received backlash for its usage in my professional life where I use it commonly to refer to my techs and students. Claiming that it was intentionally derogatory and dismissive when it was not is putting words in my mouth and ascribing motive where there was none. This is what i meant when I talked about offense culture earlier; you lot have been trained to look for offense in just about anything no matter how innocuous. I understand that it's largely a cultural difference but it's still a crock of shit.

Modi3 votes

First off:

Don't text and drive

You shouldn't be on the boards if you are driving.

And how is a textbook any more reputable than the WHO? Let's take another look at a reputable source, the US NIH. Also here's another one from the NIH.

All three sources (including the one from the WHO) agree that adolescence, when defined by age alone, ends at around 19 years old. All of them acknowledge that they is no precise age applicable to every individual, but the general consensus is that adolescence ends at 19. But that is not the crux of the argument.

You are an intelligent person, I can tell from your well explained position in this thread. You are intelligent enough to know when something is most likely to be interpreted as derogatory. Acting like you had no motive towards thiat interpretation, or no knowledge that it would be interpreted as such is, as you put it, a crock of shit.

No matter how innocuous you intended it to be, you know better.


you lot have been trained to look for offense in just about anything no matter how innocuous.

I am guessing that you and I are around the same age. Cultural differences due to generational differences likely don't apply here. The main difference is that i was taught to understand not only what I say, but who am I saying it to. This has been a useful, and important skill, since I work with people from around the world, where language barriers are the norm.

Long story short: your post crossed the line. Whether you meant it or not, is irrelevant. You can either continue to argue about it, or learn from the incident.

If you choose to argue, that's your prerogative, but I'm done arguing here. Have a pleasant rest of your year.

Sukishoo2 votes

. This person is still quite a bit younger than that.

The only thing I will say here on this subject (as I chose to remove and stop conversations in there) I am most definitely NOT younger than that. You have absolutely no way of knowing my age, not that am I going to say what it is right here but I am indeed over that mark by far

Hungry Cancer1 votes

Sure

ModPeriscope3 votes

Hey,

I saw the back and forth between you and another poster there. I think the other poster was behaving pretty negatively, and I felt like this response was either egging on the other poster and not really exiting what I considered was not a good discussion between the two of you.

I’m still seeing a few replies in that thread, and I really think the both of you should stop conversing with one another. I removed one comment, but felt another wasn’t sufficiently negative for removal.

Hungry Cancer1 votes

My issue is that my comments did not break any boards rule and were still removed simply because you chose to do so and felt they were "heated" which is subjective as Hell. If you guys are just going to do whatever the fuck you want then how are we supposed to know what is acceptable and what isn't since it varies from mod to mod?

Hungry Cancer1 votes

Let me be clear my vulgarities are not directed at you. I'm not swearing at you I'm swearing in conversation with you. Big difference.

rujitra5 votes

Your comment was uncivil, breaking boards rules. Your disagreement with the rules doesn’t change the rules. As I said, if you want a place you can insult and be a jerk to others you disagree with, then go find such a place. If you wish to post here, you must engage in civil discussion. Sure, it’s subjective, but it’s fairly obvious what you did wrong, and I explained it to you. It is not the moderators fault that you refuse to accept the rules.

Hungry Cancer1 votes

I did not say that my disagreement changes the rule, do not put words in my mouth or ascribe motives to me, I simply want to know objectively what rule was broken. Your comment doesn't tell me shit honestly as it's chock full of assumptions and fallacies which is why I haven't had a chance to reply to it just yet. Also you aren't the moderator, so this reply on my discussion with the mod is totally uncalled for as your opinion frankly doesn't matter as he's the one with the power. So should your comment be deleted for being heated as it obviously is from how you interjected yourself into another comment and started berating me with your assumptions about my motives because I hadn't replied to you yet? I did not break any objective or clear rule, using the term kid to refer to someone is not an insult in and of itself as I've been told on the board discord by a mod in the past. The moderator simply stated that he felt the discussion was too "heated" but by the same standard your comment should be deleted. You seem to think that the boards are akin to a proper forum by the roman definition but they are not because they don't have a clear and objective rules of civil discourse like all of your other proper examples do which is required for it to be considered a true forum by definition; which is exactly my point.

rujitra5 votes

Rules are not objective all the time, and they are not invalid simply because they are not objective rules.

I think you’re quite misinformed on how “objective” rules are throughout history. Common sense prevails - and common sense says that your comment was uncivil. I’ve explained why, and you’ve been told it was correct. At this point, it is you saying thy at because you disagree with the application of the rule, that it’s invalid. That’s not the case.

ModPeriscope2 votes

Sorry, I took my time replying to this as you still seemed disgruntled about the removal. I wanted to give a thorough response, which is difficult and time consuming due to the format of that particular board (Announcements).

As explained in the removal message, this was not a civil response to another poster, and neither was their response to you.

This really started off with "Apparently you didn't read what I said." Negative, sure, but I didn't see it as removal worthy, but I removed the next comment from the other user, claiming you "didn't understand anything." In response to that comment is the removal mentioned in your OP. At that point, you two aren't working on discussing anything league related, but rather who will have the last word. Further, calling the other person "kid" and ending with a "lol" came off as insulting and dismissive. Both this comment and the other user's comment were removed, as they were both deemed uncivil for the reasons I've mentioned above.

Edit: As for the specific rule, it's listed here in the Universal Rules under "The Bad Stuff"

Do not post content intended to insult, belittle, disrespect, or intentionally offend other community members as individuals or as groups.

Hungry Cancer1 votes

Except nothing I said was intended to insult or intentionally offend. I'd already cleared the use of kid vs kiddo with another mod, if I thought it would've been misconstrued that way then I would've used something else but you guys don't have an objective standard for what is offensive and what isn't. I use the term kid in my professional life both in the lab referring to my techs and while teaching at the University and have never received any backlash over it's usage. So to have so many people lose their shit over it online is kinda ridiculous especially after I'd already asked about it's usage.

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