The boards is not serving its intended purpose, and both Riot and the players are responsible

Unnamed Feeder·1/22/2018, 4:33:01 PM·109 votes·14,539 views

The boards were meant to be a place for constructive discussion. They were meant to be a place where players and Rioters alike could discuss gameplay, the game's story, memes regarding league, or have discussions in general. They were meant to be where Riot could take genuine feedback and change the game accordingly.

This is nothing near the reality of the boards.

A large portion of the boards consist of circlejerking, unsupported complaints, and even personal attacks. The boards, excluding the memes boards, has earned an extremely negative reputation as well (both within boards and outside of them), where the gameplay board is memed to be nothing but circlejerking, upvote farming, and whining.

Likewise, Riot responses are scarce at best. The majority of Riot posts are in the story or memes boards, where they generally can't get negative feedback. The biggest problem, is, however, that Rioters avoid answering controversial questions. It was part of Hashinshin's rant video as well, and I personally feel that it's very true. Last year, out of the thousands of threads that complained adc and support items were too strong, several hundred of them actually had very valid points. I only remember one or two actually getting a red tracker. To name a more recent example, in Meddler's QGTs in January 19 which talked about counterplay, I asked him what he thinks the counterplay to adcs are, because I was genuinely curious on Riot's stance on that. Again, no response. It's almost as if I have to choose between getting a Rioter response, or asking a hard question that I really want to know the answer to.

And this is where the problem comes in: a lot of very constructive and informative posts also get completely ignored. A somewhat recent example is this one, which talks about how CertainlyT's champions are very toxic and how the poster thinks he's not fit for champion design: https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/iZ7MG70x-i-personally-think-that-certainlyt-is-not-fleshed-out-for-the-leagues-design-philosophy?sort_type=best I myself commented on this post, hoping that with how constructive this original post was, it would get a Rioter response on how they would act according to this feedback. But, alas, it didn't. Granted, it was close to new year, but I personally think it wasn't approached because it talked about a very controversial thing: CertainlyT's unhealthy champions, something Rioters almost NEVER admit. To see how it didn't get a response just because it was a hard topic is just sad to me, and shows how the boards are not fulfilling their purpose.

I personally think that both the players and Riot are responsible for the current mess of the boards. Based on observation, both their faults creates a horrible downward spiral that just gets worse and worse:

The players want a controversial topic answered. However, since it is a controversial topic, Riot doesn't respond to it. This makes the players agitated and angered they don't get a response. More and more threads follow, and the threads turn less constructive and more angered and sometimes offensive. And now, because Rioters fear they are going to get witch hunted or quoted as the official 'stance' of Riot, they will avoid answering even further. And so this spiral continues until it gets worse and worse. This could be seen quite clearly regarding the topics of adcs mid season 2017, ardent censer, and the rengar rework.

So the player's fault in tl;dr form is that they get agitated and the content turns more offensive and less constructive. This causes Rioters to stay away, as the circlejerkers will cause a witch hunt on the Rioters no matter what. Riot, meanwhile, is justifiably afraid of some players witch hunting them and using their comments out of context, and (this is the problem) avoids answering the hard questions, even in threads that provide nothing but constructive criticism and supported opinions. Ultimately, a lot of very good discussion potential is wasted and the boards are not serving their intended purpose.

I suppose that the best we can do to solve this issue is to provide a more welcome environment, using less combative language and keeping all criticism constructive and not too offensive, even if the topic itself is quite controversial. Perhaps that would encourage them to speak out more. And it would be best if the good players appropriately discouraged others from abusing Rioter responses.

And if this post is read by a Rioter, my plea to Riot is: please respond more to the controversial questions. The boards are the official website made by Riot to DISCUSS gameplay; we should be able to have discussions on adc strength, game pacing, CertainlyT champion pool, and so on, as long as we keep discussion civil, constructive, and within the boards. Honestly, I would prefer responses like "We understand how the boards feel, but based on surveys and foreign servers, a large majority of players think adcs are very balanced" (if it actually IS the case) over not being responded to at all. I would guarantee you that a lot of people in the boards are good people, and that the intention of the boards is not to publicly humiliate Riot.

Thanks for reading my read on the current state of the boards, and I hope over time, it can be what it was originally meant to be.

tl;dr the boards are not fulfilling its intended purpose. Riot is justifiably scared of their responses being witch hunted and abused, so they avoid difficult questions. Meanwhile, the players get agitated about the lack of responses and the posts become more offensive and less critical and respectful. This tragic spiral lead to this suboptimal state of the boards today.

105 Comments

RiotSparkle1/23/2018, 12:04:57 AM54 votes

Okay here is a possibly controversial personal opinion from a Rioter perspective:

I don't think it's ever appropriate for a Rioter to comment on another individuals' work. Period. You won't catch me in topics that are addressed to someone who is not named "Riot Sparkle". You narrow your chances of getting a response down to almost nothing if you make a topic like that - either that person answers or no one does IMHO.

I've actually seen Rioters give answers to controversial questions here on Boards in the past - ex: Maple's comment on Yasuo recently - but again, only Rioters who have the info to answer can answer. I don't comment on projects my team is not working on and, let's be honest, not all teams seem to be equally welcomed here on Boards.

ModKnightsKemplar1/22/2018, 7:51:55 PM13 votes

I wonder if you would agree that some of this is a consequence of the way the Boards is organized in the first place.

The thing about internet forums is this: you have to be a little polarizing to get attention. There's decent research out there claiming that this is just a consequence of public discourse; inflammatory rhetoric just generates more views, plain and simple.

Would you have any suggestions on what could be done to fix that from a technical standpoint? I have struggled a lot as part of the volunteer team to come up with creative ways to try to get more constructive, thoughtful content on the front page of the Boards.

I'm not saying that you don't have a point; getting Rioters to wade into these discussions would help, I think. But I'm interested (as a non-Rioter), in what else we could do to make the environment more conducive to helpful discourse flourish in the first place. In other words, what is something that the Boards team could do that makes conversation with everyone, not just Rioters, more helpful and interesting?

We've tried pinning good threads on the Gameplay sub-board, we've tried megathreads for popular topics, and we've tried making Let's Discuss pages for new champs or systems. I would argue that those had a minimal effect on actually improving content, though; numbers 2 and 3 were somewhat effective in reducing spam, but not at improving discourse. So that's where I'm coming from.

HalcyonDweller1/22/2018, 7:28:19 PM12 votes

This, so much of this. T_T

Really well put OP. I could not agree more with pretty much everything you said in this post.

[slayer-pantheon-thumbs]

I think that part of the problem is that people are very prone to not accept responsibility for problems. Like you said, it is a downward spiral. But whenever I say something to people about this, they always seem to respond with, "Well if Riot would just suck it up and respond to the toxic feedback we could start to unravel this mess." or "It's their fault we are like this, they should hurry up and fix it and we would stop."

People can argue until they are blue in the face about what Riot should or should not do about things. All of it is irrelevant, because we don't actually have any control over Riot.

Maybe it would work if they sucked it up and just bore the force of the toxicity for a month or so, but whether it would or would not work doesn't matter because there are other things that actually ARE within our realm of control that could help improve the situation.

If we choose to make and promote good discussions and snuff the "REEEEE" discussions then we will by our own actions shape the boards into a more approachable space and Rioters will naturally gravitate here because they will finally be able to see the value in participating here - value that has been obscured much of the time because of the circle-jerk and "REEEEE" posts.

RiotRiot Calad1/23/2018, 2:00:49 AM11 votes

I agree on the whole. I think the fact that these boards are are our official platform means a lot of players come here with a bone to pick with Riot, rather than a place for discussion, which drives away a lot of people who aren't interested in hostility as a default tone. And I think you're right that Riot shares a lot of the blame for creating that environment too. It's a self-fulfilling prophecy that's tough to break out of.

And if this post is read by a Rioter, my plea to Riot is: please respond more to the controversial questions. The boards are the official website made by Riot to DISCUSS gameplay; we should be able to have discussions on adc strength, game pacing, CertainlyT champion pool, and so on, as long as we keep discussion civil, constructive, and within the boards.

Not sure if I'm in the minority on this, but I don't feel we shy away from controversial topics. However, I do think often we answer those questions on places outside the boards, partly to spend more time working on a better answer, and partly to reach more players. So I think it's more likely that you'll see an answer to bigger questions on places like Meddler's Gameplay Thoughts, on Ask Riot, or on one of our /dev diaries rather than in response to an angry thread on gameplay.

Rayjay Redfang1/22/2018, 5:30:02 PM11 votes

Well, you are correct in that there is a lot of circle jerking.when you look at posts, you see more shit posting here, than another place such as Reddit, which feeds into the circle jerking and pollutes the attitudes of people on the boards. I'm talking about things like "nerf x b/c op trash champ, garbage game" and that is all the post says.

Could Rioters do more in terms of responding to constructive arguments? Yes. They say they read everything and keep them in mind to discuss with themselves, and I believe that. It can be frustrating that they don't respond to something that you really want to know and answer to, but we need to keep in mind that they probably have read and discussed your comment. Not a satisfying answer, but it is realistic.

With the certainlyT thing, it is just not appropriate to comment on a coworker about their performance with people online. I read the post, it is well made, but I still have to disagree. Yasuo and Zoe memes are funny, but playing against any of his champions or reworks isn't a chore when compared to other champions. I liked the point where the op says that they have some utility tool to save them when they mess up, but they are essential for the champion being able to perform well.

DeathBurst1/23/2018, 1:35:46 PM3 votes

I've browsed the top comments and I've seen no one saying this, so I'll do it myself:

The boards are the official website made by Riot to DISCUSS gameplay; we should be able to have discussions on adc strength, game pacing, CertainlyT champion pool, and so on, as long as we keep discussion civil, constructive, and within the boards.

ADC strength? Game pacing? Sure, go ahead. "CertainlyT champion pool", for whatever that means? No. If you're out to get some heads cut, fuck you. That's not "DISCUSSING" in all caps, that's just being an ass. Discussing means talking about the designs, not the designers. (Especially since CertainlyT is obviously not working alone and that a ton of other people have to vouch on his ideas before we players get to see them.)

Skorch1/23/2018, 12:28:26 AM2 votes

Sorry to say but this post is falling on deaf ears. Posts have showed up for YEARS telling posters to stay constructive, dont witch hunt, etc... but they just dont.

Likewise as good as it is Riot responding to controversial opinions. What does it do? For instance lets say "What is the counterplay to ADCs" 1. Being a Rioter, that sentence by itself sounds an awful lot like just another condescending "ADC OP" post. Sure you couldve ACTUALLY asked the question legitimately curious but its hard to tell that through text, especially with how toxic the boards is known for being. Another issue is what wouldve happened if the Rioter ACTUALLY answered that? Downvote bar to the millions, and hundreds of comments basically saying the "Rioter is wrong" "Lel balance team noobs, that is so incorrect, I bet they are bronze trash" "No, ADCs are OP" type of things.

And on the certainlyT thing, as Sparkle said, it is probably highly inappropriate to talk about a co-worker who isnt in your team. You cant speak for them. Likewise there is no way CertainlyT would EVER come to the boards. Reason 1 being he is designing a lot right now so he is probably pretty busy. And 2 because he would be instantly castrated. What on earth would CertainlyT be able to do by talking about himself on the boards? NO defence will redeem him in the eyes of people who hate his champions.

I am glad to see you are a very optimistic person when it comes to the boards. But the likelihood of anything changing is sadly VERY grim. Especially since if the mods do anything to change it they are witch hunted themselves.

Ifneth1/23/2018, 3:27:13 AM2 votes

I relate to the OP a lot. The biggest issue I have on these boards is combative behavior. Harsh, aggressive, or nasty statements that fall below the threshold of toxicity. I’m really afraid of getting those when I post, and knowing I will get them makes me tense up rather than relax and enjoy the community.

Another problem is what might politely be called upvote farming. Someone posts a polarizing opinion, often an emotionally loaded one, and then everyone who agrees with them and reads the headline piles in to agree and upvote. Moreover, when I read these posts, I just shrug and sigh and give up hope of trying to reason with such people, figuring they will either be too convinced or just be nasty to me. That’s not a discussion. That’s not healthy. That’s not what the boards need.

If Rioters or moderators are going to reply to threads, then they should drop by these and mention that the thread is becoming an echo chamber and that people who disagree should chime in. A mid should then watch the thread for dissenting responses. If none appear, then the thread should be locked for just being an upvote farm. If any appear, then any ‘uncivil’ but not toxic responses should get warnings and the thread watched more closely.

It’s work, but it’s worthy work. People wouldn’t start threads intended to become echo chambers if they knew that such threads would get locked. If repeated incivility were punishable, then people here would largely avoid being low-key toxic, and we would see less ‘tough’ people post more. This would slowly change the tone and purpose of discussion from emotional affirmation to informed debate.

Even if being unreasonable, irascible, or stubborn Is not wrong, such traits are not right, especially for a forum. Accordingly, please, Riot and mods, see that they be filtered from this place.

Iffy Jarl1/23/2018, 7:07:41 AM2 votes

Tbh I wouldn't respond to alot of things If I was a rioter either, given you have to find the person who is working on said topic then on top of that an overwhelming majority of things are unsupported garbo and as far for the few that aren't a rioter can either be already working on said complaint or is aware and is maybe waiting for a trial period to see if things work out, and even if all this works out if a rioter speaks and says something that turns out to be not true or be something people don't agree with they will be turned into the face of whatever problem that is

Example: Rioter: "we are waiting to see if the meta adapts to "so and such"

Every post on the bords thereafter "You see this clip what bs is that!!! but this rioter says to "adapt" wow what a joke this guy is"

Power Cosmic1/22/2018, 9:00:37 PM2 votes

Not every poster is a thoughtful, educated, patient, person; or even well-versed or good at the game. Some just want to say stuff to be involved, which is fine I guess. The price of monumental success. Similarly, in a democracy, pretty much everyone gets a vote no matter what.