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The boards is not serving its intended purpose, and both Riot and the players are responsible

Unnamed Feeder··109 votes·14,539 views

The boards were meant to be a place for constructive discussion. They were meant to be a place where players and Rioters alike could discuss gameplay, the game's story, memes regarding league, or have discussions in general. They were meant to be where Riot could take genuine feedback and change the game accordingly.

This is nothing near the reality of the boards.

A large portion of the boards consist of circlejerking, unsupported complaints, and even personal attacks. The boards, excluding the memes boards, has earned an extremely negative reputation as well (both within boards and outside of them), where the gameplay board is memed to be nothing but circlejerking, upvote farming, and whining.

Likewise, Riot responses are scarce at best. The majority of Riot posts are in the story or memes boards, where they generally can't get negative feedback. The biggest problem, is, however, that Rioters avoid answering controversial questions. It was part of Hashinshin's rant video as well, and I personally feel that it's very true. Last year, out of the thousands of threads that complained adc and support items were too strong, several hundred of them actually had very valid points. I only remember one or two actually getting a red tracker. To name a more recent example, in Meddler's QGTs in January 19 which talked about counterplay, I asked him what he thinks the counterplay to adcs are, because I was genuinely curious on Riot's stance on that. Again, no response. It's almost as if I have to choose between getting a Rioter response, or asking a hard question that I really want to know the answer to.

And this is where the problem comes in: a lot of very constructive and informative posts also get completely ignored. A somewhat recent example is this one, which talks about how CertainlyT's champions are very toxic and how the poster thinks he's not fit for champion design: https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/iZ7MG70x-i-personally-think-that-certainlyt-is-not-fleshed-out-for-the-leagues-design-philosophy?sort_type=best I myself commented on this post, hoping that with how constructive this original post was, it would get a Rioter response on how they would act according to this feedback. But, alas, it didn't. Granted, it was close to new year, but I personally think it wasn't approached because it talked about a very controversial thing: CertainlyT's unhealthy champions, something Rioters almost NEVER admit. To see how it didn't get a response just because it was a hard topic is just sad to me, and shows how the boards are not fulfilling their purpose.

I personally think that both the players and Riot are responsible for the current mess of the boards. Based on observation, both their faults creates a horrible downward spiral that just gets worse and worse:

The players want a controversial topic answered. However, since it is a controversial topic, Riot doesn't respond to it. This makes the players agitated and angered they don't get a response. More and more threads follow, and the threads turn less constructive and more angered and sometimes offensive. And now, because Rioters fear they are going to get witch hunted or quoted as the official 'stance' of Riot, they will avoid answering even further. And so this spiral continues until it gets worse and worse. This could be seen quite clearly regarding the topics of adcs mid season 2017, ardent censer, and the rengar rework.

So the player's fault in tl;dr form is that they get agitated and the content turns more offensive and less constructive. This causes Rioters to stay away, as the circlejerkers will cause a witch hunt on the Rioters no matter what. Riot, meanwhile, is justifiably afraid of some players witch hunting them and using their comments out of context, and (this is the problem) avoids answering the hard questions, even in threads that provide nothing but constructive criticism and supported opinions. Ultimately, a lot of very good discussion potential is wasted and the boards are not serving their intended purpose.

I suppose that the best we can do to solve this issue is to provide a more welcome environment, using less combative language and keeping all criticism constructive and not too offensive, even if the topic itself is quite controversial. Perhaps that would encourage them to speak out more. And it would be best if the good players appropriately discouraged others from abusing Rioter responses.

And if this post is read by a Rioter, my plea to Riot is: please respond more to the controversial questions. The boards are the official website made by Riot to DISCUSS gameplay; we should be able to have discussions on adc strength, game pacing, CertainlyT champion pool, and so on, as long as we keep discussion civil, constructive, and within the boards. Honestly, I would prefer responses like "We understand how the boards feel, but based on surveys and foreign servers, a large majority of players think adcs are very balanced" (if it actually IS the case) over not being responded to at all. I would guarantee you that a lot of people in the boards are good people, and that the intention of the boards is not to publicly humiliate Riot.

Thanks for reading my read on the current state of the boards, and I hope over time, it can be what it was originally meant to be.

tl;dr the boards are not fulfilling its intended purpose. Riot is justifiably scared of their responses being witch hunted and abused, so they avoid difficult questions. Meanwhile, the players get agitated about the lack of responses and the posts become more offensive and less critical and respectful. This tragic spiral lead to this suboptimal state of the boards today.

105 Comments

RiotSparkle54 votes

Okay here is a possibly controversial personal opinion from a Rioter perspective:

I don't think it's ever appropriate for a Rioter to comment on another individuals' work. Period. You won't catch me in topics that are addressed to someone who is not named "Riot Sparkle". You narrow your chances of getting a response down to almost nothing if you make a topic like that - either that person answers or no one does IMHO.

I've actually seen Rioters give answers to controversial questions here on Boards in the past - ex: Maple's comment on Yasuo recently - but again, only Rioters who have the info to answer can answer. I don't comment on projects my team is not working on and, let's be honest, not all teams seem to be equally welcomed here on Boards.

4NoxiousHours7 votes

[{quoted}](name=Riot Sparkle,realm=NA,application-id=6heBIhQc,discussion-id=AGnm2KoY,comment-id=000e,timestamp=2018-01-23T00:04:57.118+0000)

Okay here is a possibly controversial personal opinion from a Rioter perspective:

I don't think it's ever appropriate for a Rioter to comment on another individuals' work. Period. You won't catch me in topics that are addressed to someone who is not named "Riot Sparkle". You narrow your chances of getting a response down to almost nothing if you make a topic like that - either that person answers or no one does IMHO.

I've actually seen Rioters give answers to controversial questions here on Boards in the past - ex: Maple's comment on Yasuo recently - but again, only Rioters who have the info to answer can answer. I don't comment on projects my team is not working on and, let's be honest, not all teams seem to be equally welcomed here on Boards.

I like it that Riot Sparkles has been very communicative with the player base but at the same time I kinda feel iffy seeing her in many threads that has nothing to do with her work department. To the point where I'm beginning to eye-roll seeing her in every time a good thread that is aimed to a specific group of Rioters that can potentially answer at best. Only because the kind of topic is aimed at a certain department.

I would like to see a more diversity of Rioters commenting on posts like this than just one Rioter carrying all the backlash and "controversial" topics.

Don't get me wrong tho, Riot Sparkles has done a fine job replying to players on boards but at times it's becoming a little too much. Especially if it's not something related to her department.

RiotSparkle19 votes

4Nox pls

Probably not gonna post less though, just bein' honest. If I see something I can help with, I do. It's in my bones.

sir d wreck10 votes

I don't think he's asking you to post less, I think he's just hoping that other Rioters might start posting more. He's tired of seeing a Riot reply to a thread only to find out it's the only regular Rioter who is active on these boards.

I for one love your contributions to these (crazy) boards. <3

Chermorg2 votes

Well, keep in mind that Sparkle, as an Experience designer, has worked on a plethora of things - the things I've seen him/her confirm are Runes Reforged and the League Friends app (and some others I don't remember). Just because it's not "his/her department" doesn't mean they weren't helping out with it and can answer the question - or it's possible that the Rioter who can answer the question isn't able to answer and so Sparkle hunts them down for us (i.e. they don't have boards access on their Riot account [it's a manual flag on the boards to my understanding], or they choose not to use their Riot account on the boards, etc.)

50000000000000003 votes

What projects are you/your team working on?

RiotSparkle24 votes

I work on the Game Systems team. We work on pregame or in game projects that touch the foundations of the game - things like runes, vision, dragons, items, etc.

EDIT: in the past, I worked on the League Friends app, so if you ever wanna talk about that for some reason hmu haha

Karn Bishop3 votes

So your the guy who can answer as to why many runes give raw damage/gold advt and thus over shadow runes that don't directly give either? for example perfect timing is very valuable just in terms of gold snowballing alone so it could give a broken and useless stopwatch and still be valuable to have even if it is just to sell.

How about scorch? the raw damage is so valuable that its simply the better option in terms of winning vs taking something interesting like water walking instead.

It would be nice to hear that problematic runes are going to be removed / adjusted / or replaced with better options instead of it being shrouded in mystery.

RiotSparkle36 votes

That doesn't sound like a question, that sounds like a statement you'd like to tell me.

Karn Bishop6 votes

I get it i am not a god tier word smith, i will try to keep it simple instead of detailing what i think are problems then, so here goes something.

What is riots general thoughts on raw power runes vs flexible runes and how they impact champions?

Are there any runes you thought would be solid yet turns out are problematic instead?

Are there any runes that you were surprised to see doing so well?

Electro5223 votes

I'm not a Rioter, but I think I can answer at least 2 and 3.

2: Pretty much anything in Resolve. I don't think they expected it to be this weak.

3: Kleptomancy. I think that Dev Blog put out earlier today actually mentioned this straight up.

Karn Bishop2 votes

Well yeah I'm sure the resolve tree was disappointing to them i don't doubt that but resolve just shines a light onto the flaws of runes that grant a ton of early game power vs those that grant a bit more late / are just pure utility as i think while yes the utility runes are cool and could potentially pump you up late game is there really a need to risk it when you can just dive right into all the early game damage skills and win lane and secure towers and gold for your team? at that point now you also have an item advantage which lets you easily close out the game before or around 20 minutes.

I just don't like winning or losing a game based on the merit of getting a free 600 gold from stop watch rune or poking out your lane opponent with early game damage spam runes, just look at olaf to see what i mean his highest winrate build is comet scorch with him just chucking axes endlessly and removing his opponent from even farming minions and many of the highest winrate champions all use a similar strategy by taking all the early game power spike runes to close out.

People don't even need to take my word for it visit data sites and look at high win high playrate champs then look at their runes you'll see either strong early game runes or runes that focus on giving free items i.e power.

I'll admit i am biased because my play styles heavily rely on patiently stalking an enemy into the ground and all these changes lately feel like i am being slapped in the face and told i am wrong for wanting to play that way.

edit: i also just realized this is not in general discussion didn't mean to derail a thread like this.

Real Sexy Yoona4 votes

How about scorch? the raw damage is so valuable that its simply the better option in terms of winning vs taking something interesting like water walking instead.

I'm just going to say that water walking is really good for roaming champs like Sol and jungle champs like Udyr (he becomes really hard to kite against in the river- where a lot of skirmishes do happen because of the objectives). I usually take precision as the secondary tree for kayn but i did take sorcery once with water walking and it feels good with him. Bard with scorch and aery can be very abusive in lane, but taking water walking can open possibilities to better roams for collecting meeps, warding the enemy jg, or ganking other lanes. And those are only a few examples. Water walking is an amazing rune imo. Scorch is an early game rune and becomes more irrelevant as the game progresses. It seems overrated right now because of how snow bally the games are. Water walking is fine, it's just less popular because of the popular belief of damage > Utility.

LOSINGISMYPRIDE2 votes

Do you plan to give more enhanced choice in term of magic resistance or armor in the resolve tree ? I mean iron skin and mirror sheld or not really scaling rune while conditioning those . I mean i would really to see armor or magic resist path work like the armor and magic resist you get per lvl like a option .

RiotSparkle3 votes

That entire slot in Resolve isn't really fulfilling the promise it's making tbh. I think you make a very fair point about Conditioning.

Jofeyy4 votes

League friend app is great! Although I think it needs more marketing bc I feel people are forgetting about it. Being able to see your skin collection to brag to your homies would be cool too.

Side note: How far in the future will we have to be to spectate games from the app LOL

RiotSparkle7 votes

Hey I'm glad you like it!

We actually looked into spectating from your phone back in the day and found out we'd basically need to run a game of League on your phone to make that happen. o_o;;

But, it's been a while since I've been on that team and things have probably changed since then (replays are now a thing, for example, they didn't exist back when the app launched). I can definitely see why it would be cool for players, but I can't say whether or not it will happen. I agree that I think there are some things we could add to the app to make it even cooler though.

Catwalk Lady4 votes

(Off Topic) Where's Riot Shine and Riot Glitter? Why are there no Riot Shine or Riot Glitter? D: [sg-janna]

RiotSparkle7 votes

There is a Baby Sparkle though! She's da bomb. :)

Riotpasta mama7 votes

[zombie-nunu-hearts]

Hyrum Graff1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Riot Sparkle,realm=NA,application-id=6heBIhQc,discussion-id=AGnm2KoY,comment-id=000e00010000,timestamp=2018-01-23T01:24:25.240+0000)

I work on the Game Systems team. [...] things like runes

Can you please, please, consider making rune selection work like summoner spells? I'm so tired of getting in game (particularly aram) with the wrong runes because I didn't hit save at the last moment :(

I made another post that is basically the same thing, but more technical / harder to grok (however, might be more useful for describing specifically what I had in mind).

Finally, if you'd like to play around with this type of selection paradigm to see how it would actually feel, and have an android phone (or can get your hands on one), Red Moon uses this system for selecting / saving profiles (disclaimer: I am the developer).

Hellioning2 votes

I don't think it's ever appropriate for a Rioter to comment on another individuals' work. Period. You won't catch me in topics that are addressed to someone who is not named "Riot Sparkle". You narrow your chances of getting a response down to almost nothing if you make a topic like that - either that person answers or no one does IMHO.

I mean, even if you don't tag the Rioter who is working on a remake, if the only Rioters who can comment are the people on that remake, and they don't wanna comment, they're not gonna respond. I don't see why tagging a Rioter matters or not.

let's be honest, not all teams seem to be equally welcomed here on Boards.

I'd say they are, in that all Rioters are equally unwelcome.

Unnamed Feeder3 votes

Hey Riot Sparkle, Thanks for your response. And apologies for my late reply. I understand your opinion that it's inappropriate for Rioters to comment on others' work, I understand your reasoning why, and I have no right to force you to think otherwise.

That being said, the CertainlyT case is very uniquely frustrating in that sense for the players. The generally agreed upon consensus is that all 6 of his champions have been balance issues, 3 of them are agreed to be very toxic and unfun to play against, and 2 of them are the most hated and the second most hated champion in the game. This is not boards-exclusive; if you check lolking or opgg ban rates, Zoe and Yasuo are almost ALWAYS top 10 in the ban charts. Zoe has also been picked or banned in pro play, and Kalista has been the same while strong (100% ban red side worlds), or is a 'i want to lose' ticket when she's weak. But we hardly if ever get a response on this topic because of the reasons you and I outlined.

I could discuss all day why Zoe, Yasuo, and Kalista are unhealthy, but that's not the point of this post.

So what are the players supposed to do in this sense? I know I sound really combative right now, but it is truly frustrating to get no replies on the topic. Do we wait and pray that CertainlyT or a member of the champ design team gives a response on how to fix this or how they'll avoid mistakes like these in the future? Or do we just need to accept that these champions are going to keep coming?

Again, I sound really combative in this case, and I apologize for that. I just want to say that it's not directed at anyone personally, it's just my frustration towards the issue of those particular champions.

ModKnightsKemplar13 votes

I wonder if you would agree that some of this is a consequence of the way the Boards is organized in the first place.

The thing about internet forums is this: you have to be a little polarizing to get attention. There's decent research out there claiming that this is just a consequence of public discourse; inflammatory rhetoric just generates more views, plain and simple.

Would you have any suggestions on what could be done to fix that from a technical standpoint? I have struggled a lot as part of the volunteer team to come up with creative ways to try to get more constructive, thoughtful content on the front page of the Boards.

I'm not saying that you don't have a point; getting Rioters to wade into these discussions would help, I think. But I'm interested (as a non-Rioter), in what else we could do to make the environment more conducive to helpful discourse flourish in the first place. In other words, what is something that the Boards team could do that makes conversation with everyone, not just Rioters, more helpful and interesting?

We've tried pinning good threads on the Gameplay sub-board, we've tried megathreads for popular topics, and we've tried making Let's Discuss pages for new champs or systems. I would argue that those had a minimal effect on actually improving content, though; numbers 2 and 3 were somewhat effective in reducing spam, but not at improving discourse. So that's where I'm coming from.

Risk of Fate2 votes

[deleted]

ModKnightsKemplar3 votes

I'm less worried about complaining than about having a place where discourse can happen. If that place exists and people complain about it, that's better than not having the place and still having people complain about that. Either way, you've got complainers, but one way, you get some good discussion, too.

I definitely agree that there will be downsides. My question is, what does that place look like? If we're willing to accept the negatives associated with creating that environment, how would we even do it?

Risk of Fate1 votes

[deleted]

BloodbornS2 votes

Im not sure if this would work out like at all, because I see a certral problem in this seperation. First off the talk there could get even more of a echochamber than it already is, when only people of the same mindset meet they will think their opinion is the only right one. And secondly some of the counterplay to certain champs IS based in mechanics of the game, as dumb as it sounds "git gud" can the only solution to a problem. For example when you whine about Nidas speers being op because they always hit you, while they are actually fairly balanced right now.

Electro5222 votes

To be honest, from a technical standpoint, trying to "fix" the Boards will not be easy. We're going to have to come up with something very.......creative.......I'd say to the point where we would need to develop a brand new forum "style".

What I mean is that there 2 main styles of forums. You have the "Classic" style, or the "bump" style, which is what the old forums followed. Then you have the "Reddit" style, making use of the Upvote/Downvote system.

Both of these do not offer a good environment for what the Boards are trying to accomplish, for they both favor favoritism. If you like a thread, you either bump it, or upvote it. If you don't like it, you don't comment, or downvote it. As much as we want people to upvote based on the discussion, it simply will not happen. I have upvoted threads that I have disagreed with, but I will admit (as I'm sure everyone else will as well, including you, Kempyrean) have abused the system to try and keep a thread they don't like from getting to the front page.

So.....in order to accomplish what the Boards want to do, we have to develop a system that promotes discussion, but can't be manipulated........which is a hell of a lot easier said than done.

This is not an easy issue to fix, and it will need alot of brainstorming from several people.

Hellioning2 votes

I still hate the upvote/downvote system. It's bad on reddit and even worse here.

Altonius Amakiir2 votes

Maybe a different voting system might help. This isn't a very well explored train of thought on my part, but what if you could vote on constructiveness, as well as how much you liked it.


You maybe have the constructive/inflammatory buttons at the bottom of a post so people are encouraged to read it all.

Allow for secondary sorting of posts on the home page/subpages by whether they are constructive or not. It could hide non-constructive posts, order them all after the constructive ones, or go "32 upvotes constructive; 32 upvotes inflammatory; 28 upvotes inflammatory; 26 upvotes constructive".

The amount of constructive/inflammatory votes may or may not want to be shown to the public(there are benefits to both).


Of course this is something that would need to be made by Riot, but it would potentially fix some community side issues.

Again, haven't thought this out past just an idea to try(just got out of class, let me be braindead), it could be that there's a huge flaw that takes more than 15 seconds of thinking to find or that it's just too hard to implement, or just too much work.

But yeah, have an idea! [slayer-jinx-catface]

P.S. If this idea is implemented and goes horribly wrong, I had nothing to do with it!

ModKnightsKemplar4 votes

Really neat idea; this is exactly the sort of reply I was hoping to get to my comment, because I would have never thought about something like this!

I'm not promising I can get it implemented or anything, but I want to see more creative solutions like this so it will give people more ideas; that's how brainstorming works!

Unnamed Feeder2 votes

Hey Buddy, Yeah, agreed that polarizing posts will get more attention than non-polarizing ones. I myself made a post a few months ago on how it would be better for more Riot-player interaction to occur, where everything was sugar coated. That post got 2 upvotes and 3 comments max. 2 months after that I made a post using much stronger language and a much more negative tone on a very similar topic. That post got 140+ upvotes and about 300 comments.

As for your question on suggestions to fix the boards on a technical standpoint, my recommendation is to let other players and/or mods to categorize posts into either a 'constructive' one or a 'venting' one, where the venting posts are more complaining without much evidence. And among the 'constructive' posts, the two are then categorized into 'constructive normal' or 'constructive strong language', where the latter posts offer critical and positive feedback but using stronger language. In my opinion, Kasarana's post regarding CertainlyT champs linked above would be categorized into 'constructive normal', while this post itself would be categorized into 'constructive strong language'. Although I say in my original post that combative language is bad, strong language that criticizes gameplay and gameplay alone (and NOT Riot directly) is fine.

I don't have a lot of boards experience so I'm not sure this would work, and it would be a bit more tedious, but that's just my quick thought.

ModKnightsKemplar2 votes

I appreciate you sharing your thoughts on it. I don't want to sound like I'm promising anything, but I think it's worth talking about and brainstorming ideas publicly. I want people to know that the moderation team does spend time thinking about issues like this, and we are committed to making improvements when and where it makes sense. Great thread!

HalcyonDweller12 votes

This, so much of this. T_T

Really well put OP. I could not agree more with pretty much everything you said in this post.

[slayer-pantheon-thumbs]

I think that part of the problem is that people are very prone to not accept responsibility for problems. Like you said, it is a downward spiral. But whenever I say something to people about this, they always seem to respond with, "Well if Riot would just suck it up and respond to the toxic feedback we could start to unravel this mess." or "It's their fault we are like this, they should hurry up and fix it and we would stop."

People can argue until they are blue in the face about what Riot should or should not do about things. All of it is irrelevant, because we don't actually have any control over Riot.

Maybe it would work if they sucked it up and just bore the force of the toxicity for a month or so, but whether it would or would not work doesn't matter because there are other things that actually ARE within our realm of control that could help improve the situation.

If we choose to make and promote good discussions and snuff the "REEEEE" discussions then we will by our own actions shape the boards into a more approachable space and Rioters will naturally gravitate here because they will finally be able to see the value in participating here - value that has been obscured much of the time because of the circle-jerk and "REEEEE" posts.

RiotRiot Calad15 votes

If we choose to make and promote good discussions and snuff the "REEEEE" discussions then we will by our own actions shape the boards into a more approachable space and Rioters will naturally gravitate here because they will finally be able to see the value in participating here - value that has been obscured much of the time because of the circle-jerk and "REEEEE" posts.

I think you're right about that. I try and share boards threads around internally that I think are worth responding too, but some threads are so hostile that I don't feel like there's a lot of value in doing so.

HalcyonDweller3 votes

[{quoted}](name=Riot Calad,realm=NA,application-id=6heBIhQc,discussion-id=AGnm2KoY,comment-id=00020000,timestamp=2018-01-23T02:07:23.167+0000)

I think you're right about that. I try and share boards threads around internally that I think are worth responding too, but some threads are so hostile that I don't feel like there's a lot of value in doing so.

Thanks! It is really frustrating to know all of this and try to get people to stop making things worse, but it's a relief to know that good posts are still being read and passed around. Thank you for doing that for the boards, I don't think I could go on using it if I ever thought that our posts were completely ignored.

Rayjay Redfang11 votes

Well, you are correct in that there is a lot of circle jerking.when you look at posts, you see more shit posting here, than another place such as Reddit, which feeds into the circle jerking and pollutes the attitudes of people on the boards. I'm talking about things like "nerf x b/c op trash champ, garbage game" and that is all the post says.

Could Rioters do more in terms of responding to constructive arguments? Yes. They say they read everything and keep them in mind to discuss with themselves, and I believe that. It can be frustrating that they don't respond to something that you really want to know and answer to, but we need to keep in mind that they probably have read and discussed your comment. Not a satisfying answer, but it is realistic.

With the certainlyT thing, it is just not appropriate to comment on a coworker about their performance with people online. I read the post, it is well made, but I still have to disagree. Yasuo and Zoe memes are funny, but playing against any of his champions or reworks isn't a chore when compared to other champions. I liked the point where the op says that they have some utility tool to save them when they mess up, but they are essential for the champion being able to perform well.

RiotRiot Calad11 votes

I agree on the whole. I think the fact that these boards are are our official platform means a lot of players come here with a bone to pick with Riot, rather than a place for discussion, which drives away a lot of people who aren't interested in hostility as a default tone. And I think you're right that Riot shares a lot of the blame for creating that environment too. It's a self-fulfilling prophecy that's tough to break out of.

And if this post is read by a Rioter, my plea to Riot is: please respond more to the controversial questions. The boards are the official website made by Riot to DISCUSS gameplay; we should be able to have discussions on adc strength, game pacing, CertainlyT champion pool, and so on, as long as we keep discussion civil, constructive, and within the boards.

Not sure if I'm in the minority on this, but I don't feel we shy away from controversial topics. However, I do think often we answer those questions on places outside the boards, partly to spend more time working on a better answer, and partly to reach more players. So I think it's more likely that you'll see an answer to bigger questions on places like Meddler's Gameplay Thoughts, on Ask Riot, or on one of our /dev diaries rather than in response to an angry thread on gameplay.

Kobold11 votes

That's kind of an issue in itself is it not? Where we as players do not have a way to see what may have been posted somewhere else to know if the question was answered unless the answer is reposted where we look. Wasn't that the purpose of moving from the forum to the boards? The red tracker helps for in the boards and the red tracker extension for browsers helps on reddit but there are other places answers are given that some players may never see. A decent chunk of the posts could be removed from the boards just by having the answers more available to the playerbase. That alone may reduce the hostility of the boards.

Regarding controversial topics I do think Riot does answer them or at least look at them but the responses given too them are either too late or too far past the point where the topic has turned hostile, or the other reason is the topic is brought up internally and then forgotten by the team to answer it due to taking too long to find an answer.

DeathBurst3 votes

That's a lose-lose situation for Riot. Sure posting on the board means the conversation is more "centralized", but if it's centralized with 10K people reading it, it's still worse than non-centralized discourse on Twitter or Reddit being seen by 100K people. (Numbers are just examples, of course.)

As a workaround, there is a sub-reddit dedicated to gather Rioter posts ( https://www.reddit.com/r/leagueofriot/ ), and you can make Twitter lists to do the same. I can share mine, if you want.

Altonius Amakiir2 votes

I think that's fair to say in a lot of cases, but there are also cases where it isn't straight hostile, yet they aren't answered on the boards. Now if they are going to be answered or responded to in a large manner like Ask Riot down the road, that's great, but if they aren't it seems like a bit of a problem that it isn't answered.

I think there are three other problems with the way the boards as a community and a webpage works right now that weren't mentioned (at least directly if at all).

Tldr on this section: People don't know who does what, or what your title mean all the time (or even what all departments there are). The boards also doesn't give us a clear or easy way to contact the right Rioter. Also some questions are hard to know on who to ask department-wise.

The first is that Rioters keep saying we can't comment on this particular post because it isn't our department. And that is fair. The problem with this however is that many players don't know which specific Rioter does what field. I couldn't even look up all of you and figure it out with the wiki or something if I wanted to spend that time. Figuring out if that Rioter uses the boards is another problem too, not to mention the chances of them seeing my particular post/mention. I don't think it is quite fair to keep saying that without acknowledging that your webpage does not allow for an easy method of directing questions to certain departments or people. I've noticed the addition of titles next to Rioter names, and I'm guessing this is a step towards that direction, but I would suggest taking it a step further. One option to use as a start for an idea (although maybe not appealing) would be to make those titles hyperlinks to another boards page (like gameplay, memes & games...) for that department and allowing people posting on the boards to tag that department.

Tldr on this section: People don't have strong emotions for nice posts and thus they don't get as much visibility, from the community, or Riot.

Another issue is visibility. What I mean by this is, as has been noted by either you, the moderator in here, or the creator of this post (can't remember, and a little lazy right now), making posts with a negative/angry tone always creates higher views and more responses. This in turn causes the non-negative views to just be sort of ignored and left at 2-5 upvotes and is never given the chance to get anywhere near the front page and be viewed by a Rioter. This too feeds into this vicious cycle we have here on the boards, where new players wanting to give constructive feedback are dissuaded because people don't upvote nice posts here, in fact some people downvote any non-toxic post. And this problem two is two-fold. On the community side of things, people aren't willing to acknowledge a nicer post as much as they would if it was a bit meaner. And on Riot's end, it seems that not many Rioters pay attention to the new feed.

Unfounded speculation time: This may be due to Riot not wanting t spend a lot of time on the boards and thus focusing only on the hot feed posts, which if the case sucks because that would mean they aren't giving the time to an outlet they gave the community for talking to them, and/or so few are willing to look at our posts. Which again, exacerbates the problem if Riot isn't willing to put forth the effort to look for better posts. (again speculation, I just think if this is even remotely true, it needs to be said).

Tldr on this section: Don't forget to respond in a timely manner if it's a valid concern/point, don't forget to pass it on to others who can answer better... etc.

The third issue not mentioned is specifically on what you have just said (and have been noted by Kobold who also responded to this comment). A lot of times it feels like you plan to do this, and it gets talked about, and responses are planned... but it just never gets back to us. Other times a response takes too long. For instance Rengar. There was a lot of questions about it on the Rengar mains subreddit (or so I've been told) for a while after the assassin update. They kept asking and asking about him, and giving criticism about how different he felt, and how he didn't feel like Rengar. For a while they were seemingly ignored. In reality it may have been that Riot was planning an internal discussion, or waiting on data... etc. If I'm not mistaken, they waited a few months asking like this before they got a response. That brings up the first issue with this case, it took way too long to get a response out. As noted by others here, naturally the longer someone has to wait for a response on something they are passionate about, the angrier/more agitated they will become. Then the response they got was in a mocking tone, calling their requests/questions/feedback memes. Now that's a completely separate issue of a single Rioter making an inappropriate response, but you can see with this that also the longer you wait to respond, the better of a response they are expecting. If that had happened the first month after the assassin update, it probably wouldn't have gone over as badly. That example isn't from the boards per say (although it did spill out into the boards from reddit as well), but it's a good parallel to the board's behavior I believe. I would also like to say this isn't me trying to rag on that, it happened, its dealt with, we all learned a bit from it. What needs to be further noted though is that responses need to come quicker for large things (problems like this others have noted are ADC 2017 and Ardent) and no matter the size, if it's a valid concern it shouldn't be ignored (or else it could grow into a full community rant like Rengar again). I think Riot handled this pretty well and at a reasonable speed with the pre-season comments/complaints about game pace.

All in all, I can see that Riot is trying to do things better on the boards, and I really appreciate it. But going forward keep in mind that from the community's point of view (however skewed it may be) they are seeing fewer and fewer Riot responses, less large-topic replies, and more replies seem to be along the lines of We have plans(TM). While I'm certainly not saying every Rioter needs to come on and scrounge for posts to respond to and spend 2 hours a day each answering/responding. It would be nice if there was a more expansive group of Rioters responding, more of a focus on getting bigger/long standing questions answered, and less of a focus on only responding to the the hot section posts.



So as a bit of a point and to try to get visibility on some of my questions I've been asking for ages... (and since I'm also trying to make a point, I will put the number of times asked, in what I believe to be a non-aggressive manner next to them, along with date of first question) Shameless question time to whichever Rioter can answer:

Teridax681 votes

[{quoted}](name=Riot Calad,realm=NA,application-id=6heBIhQc,discussion-id=AGnm2KoY,comment-id=0013,timestamp=2018-01-23T02:00:49.546+0000)

Not sure if I'm in the minority on this, but I don't feel we shy away from controversial topics. However, I do think often we answer those questions on places outside the boards, partly to spend more time working on a better answer, and partly to reach more players.

As other players have said, this is a way of going about things that has engendered some pretty serious communications problems, and I think it helps to take the player's perspective here. As a company, Riot may centralize its own information and communications, and so may be able to keep good track of what they posted on whichever online space, but any regular player is going to have a much harder time doing the same, since there are quite a few platforms out there and keeping track of them all as an outsider is rather difficult. I don't think this should mean dropping all platforms just for the sake of the Boards, or repeating the same statement across multiple different spaces each time, but I do think it would help to have some kind of resource players could access that could point to developer responses across all of these platforms, kind of like an extended Red Tracker. At the end of the day, even if Riot answers more questions than players on the Boards may be aware of, the fact remains that Riot doesn't really answer that many controversial questions on the Boards specifically. The fact that this is perceived as a lack of communication, when a Rioter did in fact communicate elsewhere on whichever issue that wasn't answered, just means there's unnecessary negativity and miscommunication being generated, which is detrimental to both players and Riot.

DeathBurst3 votes

I've browsed the top comments and I've seen no one saying this, so I'll do it myself:

The boards are the official website made by Riot to DISCUSS gameplay; we should be able to have discussions on adc strength, game pacing, CertainlyT champion pool, and so on, as long as we keep discussion civil, constructive, and within the boards.

ADC strength? Game pacing? Sure, go ahead. "CertainlyT champion pool", for whatever that means? No. If you're out to get some heads cut, fuck you. That's not "DISCUSSING" in all caps, that's just being an ass. Discussing means talking about the designs, not the designers. (Especially since CertainlyT is obviously not working alone and that a ton of other people have to vouch on his ideas before we players get to see them.)

Unnamed Feeder1 votes

{quoted}

I've browsed the toop comments and I've seen no one saying this, so I'll do it myself:

ADC strength? Game pacing? Sure, go ahead. "CertainlyT champion pool", for whatever that means? No. If you're out to get some heads cut, fuck you. That's not "DISCUSSING" in all caps, that's just being an ass. Discussing means talking about the designs, not the designers. (Especially since CertainlyT is obviously not working alone and that a ton of other people have to vouch on his ideas before we players get to see them.)

You completely misunderstood what I meant. I'll remind you of another sentence in that same paragraph - " I would guarantee you that a lot of people in the boards are good people, and that the intention of the boards is not to publicly humiliate Riot." I'm saying we should be discuss the CHAMPION POOL, as in the gameplay characters he created, NOT the CertainlyT champion DESIGN TEAM (which is what you're assuming). I wouldn't embrace or condone public shaming of CertainlyT or the design team members. And while I do hate the champions he created, what I would discuss constructively would be on those champions' problems, potentially how to fix that, and how to avoid those kinds of unhealthiness in the future, keeping discussion within the champion kits.

DeathBurst1 votes

Well, if that's truly the case, I owe you an apology, but pardon me for being skeptical... And even then, I'm convinced that you gain nothing by framing it as "champions developed by CertainlyT's team" as opposed to "champion designs who don't properly take into account the playing against experience".

Power Cosmic2 votes

Not every poster is a thoughtful, educated, patient, person; or even well-versed or good at the game. Some just want to say stuff to be involved, which is fine I guess. The price of monumental success. Similarly, in a democracy, pretty much everyone gets a vote no matter what.

Skorch2 votes

Sorry to say but this post is falling on deaf ears. Posts have showed up for YEARS telling posters to stay constructive, dont witch hunt, etc... but they just dont.

Likewise as good as it is Riot responding to controversial opinions. What does it do? For instance lets say "What is the counterplay to ADCs" 1. Being a Rioter, that sentence by itself sounds an awful lot like just another condescending "ADC OP" post. Sure you couldve ACTUALLY asked the question legitimately curious but its hard to tell that through text, especially with how toxic the boards is known for being. Another issue is what wouldve happened if the Rioter ACTUALLY answered that? Downvote bar to the millions, and hundreds of comments basically saying the "Rioter is wrong" "Lel balance team noobs, that is so incorrect, I bet they are bronze trash" "No, ADCs are OP" type of things.

And on the certainlyT thing, as Sparkle said, it is probably highly inappropriate to talk about a co-worker who isnt in your team. You cant speak for them. Likewise there is no way CertainlyT would EVER come to the boards. Reason 1 being he is designing a lot right now so he is probably pretty busy. And 2 because he would be instantly castrated. What on earth would CertainlyT be able to do by talking about himself on the boards? NO defence will redeem him in the eyes of people who hate his champions.

I am glad to see you are a very optimistic person when it comes to the boards. But the likelihood of anything changing is sadly VERY grim. Especially since if the mods do anything to change it they are witch hunted themselves.

Ifneth2 votes

I relate to the OP a lot. The biggest issue I have on these boards is combative behavior. Harsh, aggressive, or nasty statements that fall below the threshold of toxicity. I’m really afraid of getting those when I post, and knowing I will get them makes me tense up rather than relax and enjoy the community.

Another problem is what might politely be called upvote farming. Someone posts a polarizing opinion, often an emotionally loaded one, and then everyone who agrees with them and reads the headline piles in to agree and upvote. Moreover, when I read these posts, I just shrug and sigh and give up hope of trying to reason with such people, figuring they will either be too convinced or just be nasty to me. That’s not a discussion. That’s not healthy. That’s not what the boards need.

If Rioters or moderators are going to reply to threads, then they should drop by these and mention that the thread is becoming an echo chamber and that people who disagree should chime in. A mid should then watch the thread for dissenting responses. If none appear, then the thread should be locked for just being an upvote farm. If any appear, then any ‘uncivil’ but not toxic responses should get warnings and the thread watched more closely.

It’s work, but it’s worthy work. People wouldn’t start threads intended to become echo chambers if they knew that such threads would get locked. If repeated incivility were punishable, then people here would largely avoid being low-key toxic, and we would see less ‘tough’ people post more. This would slowly change the tone and purpose of discussion from emotional affirmation to informed debate.

Even if being unreasonable, irascible, or stubborn Is not wrong, such traits are not right, especially for a forum. Accordingly, please, Riot and mods, see that they be filtered from this place.

Iffy Jarl2 votes

Tbh I wouldn't respond to alot of things If I was a rioter either, given you have to find the person who is working on said topic then on top of that an overwhelming majority of things are unsupported garbo and as far for the few that aren't a rioter can either be already working on said complaint or is aware and is maybe waiting for a trial period to see if things work out, and even if all this works out if a rioter speaks and says something that turns out to be not true or be something people don't agree with they will be turned into the face of whatever problem that is

Example: Rioter: "we are waiting to see if the meta adapts to "so and such"

Every post on the bords thereafter "You see this clip what bs is that!!! but this rioter says to "adapt" wow what a joke this guy is"

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