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Riot, you need to remove all these Mod accounts- return them to normal status

Glass Rammus··6 votes·5,153 views

My stance: Mods make the boards a more toxic environment.

MODS ARE NOT ANY MORE OR LESS INFORMED THAN THE AVERAGE PLAYER.

How many applicants did you have when you were posting for people to apply? You had a terrible sample base considering it seems like only trolls applied. I know, firsthand, that most of the players I come across didn't apply. This kind of authority assigned on a "first come, first serve" basis is inherently ineffective. These 'Mods" seem to only want authority to remove content they disagree with, then justify the authority with an abusive interpretation of "the rules". It would be good and well for them to remove posts that violate rules- but Mods have clearly abused their position by picking and choosing when the rule applies based on whether or not they agree with the statement.

PASSIVE AGGRESSIVE RESPONSES

Somebody posting about removed comments is bound to attract the attention of the Mod that removed the comment. The Mods will comment about what this player did wrong. Now, you might not see a problem with this- but it's essentially SPAM. Because the Mod has ALREADY explained this in their message to the player, there is no reason for them to stalk this player's discussions just to repeat themselves. This is clearly harassing, and begs the question if they're really just abusing their power to troll players they don't agree with. In fact, it's much more likely they are trolling instead of doing their job- because doing their job requires monitoring Boards- not arguing with the person they punished.

FRIENDS IN HIGH PLACES

Now there's a clear system for favoritism. Player A became a Mod, and now all their Boards friends get free passes on the "menial" rules. Basically, the friends of Mods can get away with making comments and posts, and the friends of Mods have more weight when they report other comments or posts. It's the most caveman version of politics, I'll use Champion Icons to represent players: Azir became a Mod. Azir was friends with Nasus for a while. Nasus makes a post on Boards, and Rammus comments his disapproval. Nasus replies with something passive-aggressive, and Rammus reports the comment. Azir receives the report, sees it's against Nasus, and as long as there's no cursing or swearing then Azir gives Nasus a pass. Rammus responds to the comment by re-explaining his stance, but using the language Nasus used to try communicating better. Nasus doesn't like the taste of his own medicine, and reports the comment. Azir receives the report, sees it's Nasus submitting the report, then furiously digs through all the Boards Rules finding anything that can vaguely apply, removes Rammus's comment and sends Rammus the rule he found.

Laugh if you want, or get mad about being called out- but this is the reality of Boards with Mods involved. Riot please, we DON'T NEED OR WANT THEM. Return the players' accounts to their original state.

EDIT P.S.: If you agree with me, and think of Mods as useless- DOWNVOTE everything Mods post. Everyone agreeing with Mod behavior- DOWNVOTE THEM. Regardless of what the Mod is saying, or the situation- we need to adamantly remind them that they are an IMPOSITION and plague Boards with their presence.

32 Comments

ModThe Djinn12 votes

[{quoted}](name=Glass Rammus,realm=NA,application-id=6heBIhQc,discussion-id=AAYK6MQR,comment-id=,timestamp=2019-08-23T17:31:49.483+0000)How many applicants did you have when you were posting for people to apply?

As of the application rounds I remember being involved with, I believe we had at least one that broke 200. They were definitely not only trolls, although, yes, some applications were decidedly troll-y. Those applicants that were troll-y did not make it far in the process.

This kind of authority assigned on a "first come, first serve" basis is inherently ineffective.

The moderation onboarding process involves a written application which is reviewed. A small portion of applicants end up being invited to the moderation Discord for in-person meetings to answer a number of questions. From there we isolate a smaller pool of strong applicants, and bring them in for training. It's far from first-come-first-served.

Mods have clearly abused their position by picking and choosing when the rule applies based on whether or not they agree with the statement.

To my knowledge pretty much everyone on the team has removed multiple comments expressing viewpoints they agree with because the manner those viewpoints ended up expressed violates the rules. The instances that blow up on the boards do tend to be those where the removed party gets more confrontational, but not every mod action is visible to every player. You can't really judge a Mod's removal patterns from the people who complain on the boards alone.

Somebody posting about removed comments is bound to attract the attention of the Mod that removed the comment. The Mods will comment about what this player did wrong. Now, you might not see a problem with this- but it's essentially SPAM.

I appreciate you feel this way, but if a player is going to publicly contest or complain about a moderation action without giving the actual context, it's helpful to present the actual context because there is often more to the story than the poster's side indicates, as we feel transparency is helpful.

Now there's a clear system for favoritism. Player A became a Mod, and now all their Boards friends get free passes on the "menial" rules. Basically, the friends of Mods can get away with making comments and posts, and the friends of Mods have more weight when they report other comments or posts.

The latter is definitely untrue -- all reports are weighed equally (a post is either reported and in queue or not reported), and anyone can come to the Discord to present their case in person. The former should not be true, and if you see a post that you think was given too much leniency let me know and I'll take a look personally.


If you agree with me, and think of Mods as useless- DOWNVOTE everything Mods post. Everyone agreeing with Mod behavior- DOWNVOTE THEM. Regardless of what the Mod is saying, or the situation- we need to adamantly remind them that they are an IMPOSITION and plague Boards with their presence.

I do find it a bit odd that in a thread complaining about board toxicity you're suggesting a negative course of action with an insulting rationale behind it rather than, say, having discussion of your concerns, which I am happy to talk about. I can never promise specific changes, but I may be able to assuage some of your concerns or at least explain some of our actions/decisions.

Drugs and Liquor2 votes

[{quoted}](name=The Djinn,realm=NA,application-id=6heBIhQc,discussion-id=AAYK6MQR,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2019-08-23T17:43:56.024+0000)

As of the application rounds I remember being involved with, I believe we had at least one that broke 200. They were definitely not only trolls, although, yes, some applications were decidedly troll-y. Those applicants that were troll-y did not make it far in the process.

The moderation onboarding process involves a written application which is reviewed. A small portion of applicants end up being invited to the moderation Discord for in-person meetings to answer a number of questions. From there we isolate a smaller pool of strong applicants, and bring them in for training. It's far from first-come-first-served.

To my knowledge pretty much everyone on the team has removed multiple comments expressing viewpoints they agree with because the manner those viewpoints ended up expressed violates the rules. The instances that blow up on the boards do tend to be those where the removed party gets more confrontational, but not every mod action is visible to every player. You can't really judge a Mod's removal patterns from the people who complain on the boards alone.

I appreciate you feel this way, but if a player is going to publicly contest or complain about a moderation action without giving the actual context, it's helpful to present the actual context because there is often more to the story than the poster's side indicates, as we feel transparency is helpful.

The latter is definitely untrue -- all reports are weighed equally (a post is either reported and in queue or not reported), and anyone can come to the Discord to present their case in person. The former should not be true, and if you see a post that you think was given too much leniency let me know and I'll take a look personally.


I do find it a bit odd that in a thread complaining about board toxicity you're suggesting a negative course of action with an insulting rationale behind it rather than, say, having discussion of your concerns, which I am happy to talk about. I can never promise specific changes, but I may be able to assuage some of your concerns or at least explain some of our actions/decisions.

The pure fact alone that a multi billion dollar company resorts to "volunteers" rather than employees to police their boards speaks volumes. Not in a good way.

ModThe Djinn5 votes

[{quoted}](name=Drugs and Liquor,realm=NA,application-id=6heBIhQc,discussion-id=AAYK6MQR,comment-id=00010000,timestamp=2019-08-23T18:23:59.683+0000)The pure fact alone that a multi billion dollar company resorts to "volunteers" rather than employees to police their boards speaks volumes. Not in a good way.

I'm afraid I can't really meaningfully comment on that, as I'm not a part of Riot and thus am not partial to why they make the decisions they do.

Glass Rammus1 votes

I'm in sales, too, buddy. Save the pitch for someone inclined to pat you on the back. You're not wanted here. Your position is an abuse of Free Speech and open discussion.

ModThe Djinn5 votes

[{quoted}](name=Glass Rammus,realm=NA,application-id=6heBIhQc,discussion-id=AAYK6MQR,comment-id=00010001,timestamp=2019-08-23T20:24:22.101+0000)Im in sales, too, buddy.

That makes one of us! I'm in tech myself.

You're not wanted here. Your position is an abuse of Free Speech and open discussion.

I appreciate that you (and some others) don't want me here. I also appreciate that some do. Additionally, you don't have a right to Free Speech (save where government intervention is involved -- which isn't here) or open discussion on Riot's privately operated boards, and the rules are very clear about what sort of speech/behavior isn't allowed here. If you want to discuss things not allowed by the rules, find another place to do it.

Imperial Pandaa5 votes

I want mods around. It helps make sure the boards aren't a cesspool of "low elo scrub. No one cares what you think", "Everyone at Riot deserves to die because snowflakes", etc etc.

BlackKnightJack1 votes

See? These people want the forums to be ResetEra.

Imperial Pandaa5 votes

So what I'm gathering with a quick google search of ResetEra; is that you are either saying I hate Trump, or I want a "safe space". Let's go ahead and assume you mean the latter though.

You say I want a safe space because I think people should be held accountable for breaking rules on a given platform/business. Am I following this right? If so, how is it different than social norms in real life? If you break the rules that a bar has, you get disciplined. Break the rules of the house? Disciplined. Etc etc.

Yet, here you are, wanting a place you can freely be toxic or treat others improper without any reprecussions. You want a safe space to be toxic in.

BlackKnightJack1 votes

It's more than that. ResetEra came out of NeoGAF and there was a common phenomenon there where mods were facilitating true toxicity by banning anyone who would talk back to someone the mod knew or was friends with. Moreover, though, both ResetEra and NeoGAF had a reputation for being the most overpoliced forums on the internet where mods were just looking for an excuse to ban you for any reason they could going so far as to adopt social justice concepts to justify their abuses of power.

Here's a video Mister Metokur made about ResetEra if you're still confused.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qS_6bqNTgao

Imperial Pandaa4 votes

Let's go ahead and get this out. I have had moderation action taken against my account. Based off an offhand comment being taken as an insult; it wasn't but I understand why it was taken as implied. I only state this so there is no accusation (not necessarily by you) of " goody goody two shoes" or whatever.

I want Mods to exist because I believe rules should be in place and also enforced for the chance of healthy discussions to exist. There will always be difference in opinions and interpretation though. As an example:

quit being a smartass.

To some, that is an insult. To me, it is a compliment. Which is why I usually reply with.

I rather be a smartass, than a dumbass.

It would be understandable to think I am calling whoever called me a smartass, a dumbass. Even though that isn't my intent, someone may see it as such.

This is why people may ding something as "favortism". After reading x many posts from a person, one may start to get a general tone of voice for that person. Like Umbral Regent for some reason, I read his responses in a Morgan Freeman tone as he is usually calm in my opinion.

BlackKnightJack1 votes

Oh sure. Moderation is necessary, but only for glorified janitor work. Mods should have no power beyond removing spam, off-topic posts, illegal activity, and perhaps maybe NSFW content. Anything beyond that is an abuse of power.

Imperial Pandaa2 votes

And this might be where we have to agree to disagree. Depending on how you want to flag spam, which to me is posting the same thing over and over (whether multiple times a day or once a day over multiple days), there are posts I think have absolute no place on the boards. Ones where the OP obviously has no desire to discuss things(such as one this morning hoping employees would be caught in a mass shooting). Others where people try to use level or rank to dismiss others callously; or calling a person stupid as oppose to calling a stance/argument stupid (I consider calling an argument stupid different from calling a person stupid).

At the very least, I hope we understand each other a little bit better with our discussion.

Glass Rammus1 votes

What is it Riot says?

Oh yeah.. IGNORE THEM

Which is ANOTHER one-sided argument. If someone is trolling me I have to ignore it. I call them a scrub and oh no I should've ignored them because now they're offended forget if they were trying to offend me first because that doesn't matter- the only thing that matters is targeting select players with punishments.

Hotarµ4 votes

It would be good and well for them to remove posts that violate rules- but Mods have clearly abused their position by picking and choosing when the rule applies based on whether or not they agree with the statement.

I don't know where you're seeing selective enforcement, I've been using the Boards for like 3-4+ years and there have only been a few light instances of this happening.

In case you forgot or were unaware, the Boards staff doesn't hard-monitor every single post or comment. They're volunteers... and the best way to grab their attention is to properly report something or message them in the Discord. If you don't report a post, don't be surprised when it isn't removed.

Sukishoo3 votes

How many applicants did you have when you were posting for people to apply?

Feels like most of the mods that were picked in the app process are picked by the other mods and Riot has little to do with that. RIOT only seemed to deal with the initial process.

Glass Rammus1 votes

That's just another abuse of the system. They will never appoint somebody that they know has alternate points of view. Boards used to be a place where EVERYONE could come to have a discussion. But Mods discriminate against people, and make it so we can no longer have open discussions. It's a favoritism. Reddit has more users discussing League than League's own discussion platform. That should say something.

ModThe Djinn5 votes

[{quoted}](name=Glass Rammus,realm=NA,application-id=6heBIhQc,discussion-id=AAYK6MQR,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2019-08-23T17:38:55.345+0000)They will never appoint somebody that they know has alternate points of view.

I'll agree that we won't appoint someone who isn't willing to enforce the board rules (such as someone who says "insulting other players should be fine and I refuse to moderate it"), but we have a fairly wide range of views in the volunteer team, and that wide range of views factors into a number of internal discussions and rules changes that have happened.

Heck, I'd take someone who says "insulting other players should be fine, but I understand that it currently isn't and so will moderate with those rules in mind, even if I push back on that rule sometimes" if they're a good mod. We have some moderators who do that with politics, rank-shaming, and a few other things, and that's fine! There isn't some monoculture among moderators save that we all enforce the same rules at the end of the day.

Zlera3 votes

I agree. Youre right about the abuse on the boards.

Julevi4 votes

Mind providing examples of the "abuse"?

BlackKnightJack2 votes

I had a mod ban me because I called him a pseudointellectual for not understanding what an appeal to popularity is. Fairly tame, but it was targeted at HIM, so he got upset and banned me.

ModThe Djinn4 votes

{quoted}Fairly tame, but it was targeted at HIM, so he got upset and banned me.

That is a bit odd. I'll have a talk with the mod in question, as I believe that should have been a warning (based on your account's fairly clean history) instead of a 24-hour ban. I wouldn't call that abuse though so much as a slightly overaggressive action, and the mod in question is one of our most active, so even a 90% accuracy results in a few slight misses here and there.

BlackKnightJack2 votes

Yeah really weird how one of the "slight misses" hit the guy who kept pointing out that mods don't care about words used in context because then they won't have an excuse to abuse their power.

ModThe Djinn6 votes

{quoted}Yeah really weird how one of the "slight misses" hit the guy who kept pointing out that mods don't care about words used in context because then they won't have an excuse to abuse their power.

Honestly, dude, we don't really remember individual posters for their posting habits unless they're hugely reoccurring people in the report queue. It's not like we're reading all your posts and going "ooooh, BlackKnightJack has it out for us." It really does look like just a bit of an overzealous action.

BlackKnightJack1 votes

I mentioned that mods are looking for excuses to abuse their power in that very thread. It's not like it was from a previous encounter.

ModThe Djinn2 votes

{quoted}I mentioned that mods are looking for excuses to abuse their power in that very thread. It's not like it was from a previous encounter.

And I know that the mod who did that action is one of the least prone to holding personal grudges among a group already not prone to personal grudges. Almost every time he's afraid his judgment will impact his decision making he calls in someone else to handle the situation. I'm aware that, to you, you may feel singled out, but knowing the moderator in question I am very confident it was simply a case of being a bit overzealous in what was otherwise a fully appropriate removal.

The long and short of it is really that that comment wasn't appropriate no matter who it was aimed at, and the moderator action was within reasonable bounds, even if I personally might have opted for a warning instead. I'm also not aware of any surrounding context that may have influenced that moderator's decision.

Glass Rammus1 votes

Then explain why you and another Mod immediately swooped into this post to defend yourselves. Plenty of posts on Boards. So it looks like you ARE scoping for posts made by people that have it out for you.

Glass Rammus1 votes

That is a bit odd. I'll have a talk with the mod in question

No. It's NOT odd. You people have been abusing power and saying circular statements about "bringing it up" with each other. You mean "collaborate", and you're PART OF THE PROBLEM. The only thing that gets accomplished when you trolls "have talks" with each other is establishing a sub-community.

YOU ARE NOT WANTED YOU ARE NOT NEEDED YOUR PRESENCE HAS DRAGGED THIS WHOLE COMMUNITY DOWNHILL FOR TOO LONG

Get your little minions to spam vote all the comments. It won't help. The playerbase far outweighs your little group of cronies.

ModThe Djinn3 votes

As this thread has become less of a discussion and more of a dedicated rant against moderators, I will be locking it. I'm always up for actual discussions, but I draw the line at targeted attacks that don't have any meaningfully constructive critique behind them.

ModPeriscope2 votes

Like I'd said in your previous thread, use the report button on the bottom right of comments/discussions, not support tickets (that is an option, but not the fastest).

I have some free time now if you have comments you feel need addressed if you'd like to speak on The NA Boards Discord

ModPeriscope2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Glass Rammus,realm=NA,application-id=6heBIhQc,discussion-id=AAYK6MQR,comment-id=00060000,timestamp=2019-08-23T19:47:01.908+0000)

Already linked you the evidence

https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/community-moderation/hG3Xuhwj-might-as-well-remove-stickers-then

I guess I don't understand if there's a specific user or types of comments that you're looking to report. Bottom line is, I don't know what you're trying to point out. You can point me in the right direction by either finding the comments and reporting them, or you can come to the discord to report them.

BlackKnightJack1 votes

Holy shit yes. I've noticed that this is a problem too. It's like the community wants to become ResetEra.

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