How to nerf a support champ out of other roles: a guide for Riot

MrSc0tty·Jul 21, 2014·3 votes·361 views

Apparently this is a problem, because you guys still haven't figured out how to do it right. Here, allow me to help you:

GOOD:

Damage AP scalings: supports don't care about these. Like, at all. Standard support build is Mana, CDR, item actives, some defensive stats...then AP. A support will never prioritize AP over something that could help a teammate stay alive, so pretty much we don't care about AP ratios. If they're too high, you could probably even remove them altogether as long as you don't nerf...

BAD:

Damage base values, ESPECIALLY at rank 1. A support main cries every time a rank one skill base value is lowered, because it means that the solo lane version (who probably maxes that damage skill first) is untouched, while the support version just got shredded because, again, we're not building more than 60-150 AP in any given game, we're not gonna recoup that damage through ratios like a solo laner is. Please, we're gimped enough as it is vs tanks and AP Mage supports.

GOOD:

%damage reduction vs minions and monsters. Please holy freaking god why can't we have this? THIS IS EXACTLY THE SOLUTION TO TOXIC WAVECLEAR. and it doesn't affect support play nearly at all! Mid Janna loves to safely clear waves with her charged tornadoes-support Janna wouldn't do that in a million years, she doesn't WANT to pressure the wave. If Mid Janna is toxic, slap a 50% damage reduction vs minions and monsters, that would easily push Janna clear of midlane while not even touching support play. Hell, do it for Glitterlance too! And Shatter, if that was ever an issue! Why is it that measures put in place to keep, say, Garen from being toxic aren't considered on very similar in playstyle Solo lane Taric?

BAD:

Utility nerfs. This one should be obvious, Riot. Don't nerf Lulu's slow duration and speed boost duration, holy crap that's what supports do, it's ALL they do. It's what they're for, and if a support is already UP, nerfing their utility is what makes them never seen again.

Tl;DR: nerf damage ratios and %damage to minions to reduxe the toxic gameplay of solo lane supports if you just want them mid. For gods sake stop nerfing base damage and utility if the support play of that champ is non-toxic and not OP.

9 Comments

OrisiJul 21, 20143 votes

While I see the point you're trying to make, and there's a fair few points I wholly agree with, I disagree with your first point; depending on the match i'm in, and who i'm playing, AP ratios may well come into play for me heavily; if i'm playing Morgana, Soraka, Karma, one or two others, I'll still prioritise AP higher than, say, defensive stats or certain actives, depending on the match-up and how the game is going.

I generally won't bother with actives such as Mikael's in solo queue, because I often forget to use it myself, and it's rare I find a time that the CC removal is picked up by someone I'm not used to playing with. Meanwhile, I may pick up something like a Zhonya's, but then move towards still building AP if mid-lane has lost hard, or the match-up has led me into maxing my shields/heals. Other times I may just want to be able to pump out extra damage in a match we're slightly ahead in, to keep the trades in our favour on an AD heavy team.

I'd rather see AP scaling lowered than base value, don't get me wrong, but I don't think encouraging Riot to find AP scaling as an effective nerd to be reliable.

Likewise with % damage reduction vs monsters; Freezing the lane is good in many cases, but not ALL cases. Sometimes, you want to be able to push lane quickly, other times you may find a team foregoes the meta, and you're up against two damaging bottom lanes hoping to snowball on kills/pressure and work fast enough to both level without a major sacrifice of exp/gold. In that situation, their lack of %damage reduction vs monsters allows them to dictate lane; they can push back much more easily, and hold off to prevent the lane pushing into tower if they want to draw you out.

I definitely think there is a balance problem with supports; I think there's a vicious cycle that the strongest non-AP build supports, Thresh and Braum, get nerfed because other supports are being nerved due to their viability outside the lane. Meanwhile, the viability of non-supports filling the role in an over-powering fashion gets pretty much ignored, supplanting the support meta.

I honestly feel like the support style of the present will not last much longer; I think there will need to be a shift towards supports who can easily transition into other lanes without seeing their win-potential drop, or else a significant re-think of the support niche to make it much less viable to run without that dedicated support character.

YouLostMeJul 21, 20141 votes

I agree with this. The reason Riot's taking a while is because they're trying to find an elegant solution, not because they don't know how to decrease AP ratios.

LwntJul 22, 20141 votes

Solution is dont use ap scaling for utility but instead use a different stat!!!!!!!!!

Support lulu - They will buy this different stat to scale utility Mid and top lulu- will buy ability power to scale damage

That riot solution.

CerbearusJul 21, 20141 votes

Riot doesn't want to shove supports out of midlane, but as with any champ who sees play almost every game, they are going to get some sort of nerf.

MrSc0ttyJul 21, 20141 votes

Riot doesn't want to shove supports out of midlane, but as with any champ who sees play almost every game, they are going to get some sort of nerf.

Soraka got Nerfed for toxic solo lane play without any competitive play at all, and a low pick rate.

Hyrum GraffJul 21, 20141 votes

I think your response got lost :O

KamaiJul 22, 20141 votes

You know how to fix the support mess while leaving them with some scaling? Thresholds, something like: Whimsy-Allied Lasts for 3 seconds. If Lulu has at least 125 AP, the duration increases to 5 seconds. Shatter-Active Reduces enemy armor by 10/15/20/25/30 for 4 seconds. If Taric has at least 75 bonus MR, it also shreds magic resistance equal to 1/2 this value. If Taric has at least 150 bonus armor, the duration increases to 6 seconds. Howling Gale Knocks up enemies for .8-1.0 seconds, and does X damage, 50% to minions. If Janna has at least 275 AP, the knock up increases to .8-1.5 seconds, and it now does 75% damage to minions.

Not sure of the numbers, but it gives supports scaling in the way they want, makes sure the appropriate stat doesn't become overwhelming in carry hands, and can even be used, like in the Howling Gale example, to preserve a style without it being oppressive in lane. Done right, this should also give a non-linear choice in the same way aura/active items do for supports.

MrSc0ttyJul 22, 20141 votes

I actually am not a fan of this kind of "spiky power"- you could do the same thing with capped AP utility scaling.

For instance, have Janna's knock up have a .004 utility scaling fully charged, capped at 1.5 seconds.

Same effect as your suggestion but rather than a threshold power spike it's a linear scaling power curve.

KamaiJul 22, 20141 votes

I do understand what you're saying with the capped scaling for scaling effects that the base skill has, although I'd worry about it getting clunky on the UI. I feel, though, that the spiky power would be a better way to add effects, like putting an old school slow back on Janna ult, or the Shatter example. Sure, you could say Monsoon has a 1% slow per 5 AP, capping at 200 AP, but having a 3% slow at level 6 is just odd.

I also feel that spiky power, as I said before, can move lane oppressive mechanics outside of early laning without affecting sieging/teamfight capabilities, unless they feel they'd rather have actives like Mikael's. Lulu's one that I posted is actually not a bad example. Lulu getting 70 AP (40 from AP heavy runes + double Dorans) with capped AP scaling would mean she still has most of her roaming power early, while with a threshold, she has to hold off until second buy or not get a Chalice early. With Whimsy giving a lot of roaming power, that's part of her problem mid early.