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Graves could use a few changes... [ Champ Rework Concept ]

Uberphish·7/24/2014, 5:24:35 PM·6 votes·3,048 views

Graves

So after the New Dawn cinematic and the glory that was Graves' part in it, I thought 'What the hell, I play ADC fairly frequently, and I toyed around with Graves for a while... I should play him some more!"

Sadly, this did not go particularly well. Specific reasons for that aside, though, it did show me exactly why a lot of people say that Lucian does Graves' (and Ezreal's) job, only better. The Lightslinger's dashing and dueling abilities really do feel a lot more effective than Graves', and it's certainly made him a lot more popular than the member of the old 'trifecta' of great ADCs.

With that in mind, I thought I might throw out my conception of what could make Graves shine again, as well as make him better fit what I think is his overall theme; namely, the rugged con man/thug who's seen it all and isn't afraid to get into the thick of things.

NOTE: I'll be leaving numbers alone in the first draft of this, since I've found in the past that my ability to balance the math side of champs is... weak, to say the least.

Initial Note!

Discussing this with some friends has brought up an interesting note I had not considered before. Graves is, for many, considered a worthwhile pick for his ability to burst a target and heavily chunk targets * around * that target while using the AS bonus on his dash to reposition for a cleanup.

To be honest, that didn't mesh well with what I saw as the 'fantasy' for Graves. He's the no-nonsense tough-guy with a shotgun who doesn't take guff from anyone, be they assassin or tank. This has led to my design choices being a lot more confrontation-focused, but also a bit more reactive once * in * that range. Perhaps this slots him more into something of a Bruiser role rather than an ADC one... and maybe his attack range (even when not shortened by Q [see below]) would reflect that? I'm unsure... And maybe the burst approach appeals to people a bit more than the shotgun-brawler! At the very least, something else to discuss!

Passive - True Grit

When Graves deals damage to enemy champions and large minions/monsters, he gains X% (very small) of the damage dealt as bonus armor and magic resistance for Y seconds. This bonus is doubled if any of the units damaged are within W units (the minimum range of his Q's passive effect).

Graves' passive seems a bit crazy for an ADC, since ideally you wouldn't want to need those defensive stats in the first place, assuming your team is peeling well. Then, if someone dives your face, it's really unlikely the combat will last long enough to have any meaningful impact as it is. As such, it makes more since to me for the passive to be a bit stronger up front to give him a fighting chance against divers and allow him to be in the thick of a team fight where he can apply more damage.

Update - 7/28 - Passive changed from being based around merely being in-combat to Graves personally dealing damage and benefiting from it. This solidifies him as a champ who can focus heavily on building damage to still make defensive gains, while also preventing him from gaining those defenses purely by being /near/ combat, being ambushed/poked, or from most lane minions. It also no longer stacks.

Q - Buckshot

Passive - Graves deals more damage to enemies who are closer to him, scaling with distance. (Starts accumulating ~100 units into base AA range)

Toggle Off - Slug - Graves attacks from his standard attack range (Probably shorter than average) and gains a small Movespeed Bonus while running towards enemy champions.

Toggle On - Buckshot - Graves' attack range is shortened dramatically, but he fires in a short, wide cone that deals increased damage (stacking with this ability's passive) and has a minor, short-duration slow.

This, I think, is something that would bring Graves' style to the forefront. Sure, allow him to attack like a normal ADC for farming, poking, staying out of range of melee assassins, etc., but when Graves decides to go in hard, reward him for diving head-first into the brawl! Anyone building traditional ADC items will be aided by the passive so as not to blow up immediately, but will still have to balance risk and reward. Additionally, people who decide to take Graves top -- or who just like tossing in tank stats in general -- will be able to come closer to a straight ADCs damage output despite their build in exchange for not being nearly as effective while out of the enemy's reach.

W - Back Off! / Quickdraw

Graves swats the target champion with the butt of his rifle, knocking them back a moderate distance and dealing X damage. By correctly timing a second press of this ability, Graves will fire a parting shot with the following effects depending on his current Q-state:

Slug: The target takes an additional Y damage and is knocked back a bit further.

Buckshot: The Target takes an additional Z damage and everyone in a cone around the target takes A% of that, is slowed (by the amount the Q applies), and is knocked back slightly (Not as much as the main target, who also is not knocked back any additional distance).

In exchange for his dash, which I've replaced (as you'll see in a bit), Graves gains a more stylistic disengage that changes with how he was playing before he decided to back off. Taking on multiple opponents? You won't do as much damage to the primary recipient of the backside of your weapon, but you get a bit of breathing room from everyone. Going single target? Then this move functions a bit like an execute, with the risk that your target might survive if you're cocky. If they were attempting to execute you, though, then they get a lot more pain for their trouble!

Also, I really think having this ability function on a skill/timing-based basis would really give a chance for the practiced Graves players to differentiate themselves from those still learning. That bonus damage isn't a sure thing. You need to practice to make sure you can pull it off when you need it most!

tl;dr Graves gets close on his terms, not yours... at least the first time.

E - Collateral Damage

Graves fires an explosive shell in a straight line, dealing physical damage to any non-champion enemy it passes through, aswell as the first champion that collides with.

After hitting a champion or reaching the end of its range, the shell explodes, dealing physical damage in a X-range cone behind the target.

I think this is a great ability for Graves, but I'm not sure it's quite ult quality. On a sufficient cooldown, it can easily take the place of the old Buckshot as the AoE damage option for quick minion-clearing or teamfight spraying. Given how similar it was to that ability in the first place, though, I really didn't think there was a reason to have both as they were.

Note: I considered writing this to apply some sort of minor CC to the impact recipient, but that seemed like a bit too much CC in his kit, particularly since I have a bit in his ult as well. Thoughts on that, anyone?

R - Smoke Screen

Graves fires a smoke canister at the target area, dealing damage and creating a Y-radius cloud of smoke for X seconds.

Allied units treat this area as if it were brush. If they remain within the smoke cloud for W seconds, the first auto-attack made against them will be ignored.

Enemies inside the smoke cloud will be slowed, have their vision reduced to 675-range, and take Z damage for every second they are within the cloud. If they remain within the smoke cloud for W seconds, they will be blinded for V seconds.

Smoke Screen as it is right now is a bit... meh. The thought of the effect, as well as its representation (though brief) in the cinematic, really make me feel like it would just be an amazing ability to create havoc around team fights, not to mention the utility options! Give Nid a speed boost, or Rengar a new place to leap from! Let your allies hide from ADCs and enemies with particularly scary targeted abilities!

Since it works on brush mechanics rather than just applying stealth, it could theoretically be countered by wards (perhaps too big a weakness?), and it also means that Graves isn't just dropping stealth to let his casters decimate people invisibly without any chance of return fire. Even more, since the thing applies a DoT for hanging around inside of it, it would give the enemy team a very valid reason to want out, leaving your team the nice, handy cover all to themselves.

Update - 7/28 - Removed the blinding factor from the initial landing and instead added a timed effect to the cloud itself for both allies and enemies that allow it to almost be used in a defensive sense as easily as it could be used offensively, denying damage output or damage received depending on who spends time in the cloud. This gives it a bit more utility than variable, deniable stealth to the allied team while further emphasizing to enemies that they really don't want to be standing in it for very long.

So those are my thoughts on how Graves could be a deeper, more interesting, less-similar-to-Lucian champ. Any thoughts?

Graves

18 Comments

Fisk7/24/2014, 10:18:49 PM5 votes

No offense but this just is not the right rework. This change dramatically shifts what role graves plays which is rather unique. He is a very tanky high-burst ADC that does lots of ability damage. While I do agree lucian does fulfill graves role TO AN EXTENT this is ONLY a result of graves being somewhat weak and lucian being rather strong right now. Graves problems are not in his kit (as we have seen for the old triforce of ADC) but rather his numbers. His problem is his MASSIVE Bonus AD scalings. When he gets ahead, man is he a pain. He can virtually burst your whole team with a Q+R combo no problem. But if he doesnt get ahead his preformance is meh. Also his passive is one of the strongest in the game giving him THIRTY of each stat maxed out at max rank. That is HUGE. It is also easy to stack before a fight and stacks quickly in fights. Next his W is great utility, it basically allows you to remove one or two enemies from the fight for 1-2 seconds, very useful. His E is great very good, generic ADC dash. Now all this being said I do agree he is in not a great spot atm DUE to the fact that A. He needs to snowball and B. He is very vulnerable to people massing armor because he rely's on his abilities to do all his damage meaning if you're behind and they get armor before you're able to get some A-Pen you're useless and probably won't be able to be useful for most of the game since you'll never get enough damage to make up for their armor. SO here's the rework graves DOES need: Buck shot is a shotgun (as we all now) so now it creates shrapnel shredding armor X amount per bullet hit. This would make graves viable as he could now do damage with his abilities late game/when behind.

ALSO PLEASE: stop saying graves is to much like lucian. Graves was there first and is definitely a different ADC (play both it does not feel the same at all)

Shrikesnest7/24/2014, 7:07:29 PM2 votes

I like the idea of a toggle-able buckshot, for what it's worth. Very Jinx. He would need to get a lot in exchange to make up for losing his dash, though, and I'm not sure this is the way.

Making Smoke Screen his ultimate is actually really interesting, too. I'm a much bigger fan of utility ults than raw damage ults.

TinySparrow237/24/2014, 8:36:54 PM2 votes

I personally like the idea of Graves being a Burst ADC rather than an AA ADC. His ult feels incredibly satisfying because landing it on the enemy ADC after shredding down their health with a mix of Q,W, and AA's.

Now with this, I feel you change him into an AD Cassiopeia because you shifted all of his damage to his QWE while making the usefulness of his ult situational at best. On Cass, I forget about her ult half the time because most of her other abilities, combined with a Liandry's, will take down an enemies health more than using her ult; the only time I really use it is when I'm being dived by multiple people and I think I can get a stun or two out of it. That experience is mirrored by shifting his Smokescreen to his ult: I would use it only to hope that I can stop the enemy from pressing forward towards me and to get off some damage on them to make them back up. It'll work as a disengage, but that's about it, in my opinion. Also, if it works with brush mechanics, couldn't the enemy just see you if you happen to drop it on yourself? I would say just have it works as it currently does, but maybe in a larger area. Now, on to the rest of the build!

Q's toggle I'm not personally fond of, but the increase movement speed/slow that it provides will be useful; not sure how it will compare to a dash, but if the provide enough movement speed or give it a strong slow, it could balance out. Also, the short range provided by Q toggled on sounds really weird since most of the build works around holding the enemies at max range for Graves rather than diving in close. W works pretty well with Q toggled off in mind as it helps Graves continue dealing damage at range, but the ability itself works more as a ST peels for Graves, multi-target if he uses it with Q toggled on. The E works fine as a burst ability, but it feels out of place compared to the rest of the kit simply because it's the only ability that deals raw damage; it's not a bad ability, but I would say that it'll have a relatively long CD simply because it works in two parts and can unleash a lot of damage if it hits the right person at the right moment.

All in all, I feel like these changes would completely remove Graves from being capable of strong amounts of damage over a short period of time (removing the Lucian from him), but the set-up would allow him to be more like Ashe where her entire job is holding people at range while dealing large amounts of damage to the enemy. This is just my opinion on this rework, but I think Graves is okay as he is now because he isn't outshining every other ADC currently, but is fully capable of unloading a lot of damage in a short period of time if given the opportunity to do so and if he lands his abilities successfully.

KingSmizzy7/24/2014, 11:58:46 PM2 votes

A lot of graves hidden power is in his current passive, people might not realise it but he gets something like 30 armor from it, meaning he inherintly is winning a trade just from being in combat. While this isnt 'fun' power, its still a strong kit.

I like the passive you have thought up but it seems like it might scale a bit well with a tankier build. Like if someone built thornmail and was getting +40% base armor then they'd be unkillable. So you'd be forced to scale it down to maybe +15%, meanwhile if an adc graves didnt build any armor then +15% isnt anything at all.. Thats why adding base numbers is better than a % scaling.

The other issue im having with the kit, by changing Buckshot into this form, it adds more autoattack 'focus' onto this build, but Graves was never about autoattacks and AS, youd just work a few into the buckshot ult combo.

The swap between his ult and smokescreen is a strange move, If you use the smokescreen to conceal yourself then you'd be dealing no damage with it, but if you use it on the enemy then its not really using its full power. Additionally a bush isnt really that big of a deal since anyone attacking from a bush is revealed, so it would only conceal him for like 1 second max.

I think the ult would be cool especially with this set-up of close range adc if it acted like a shroud for graves and cleansed debuffs.

Nubeel7/24/2014, 9:00:53 PM1 votes

Yes please!

Hikkupz7/28/2014, 7:17:19 AM1 votes

The only thing that I would fix for him is the cooldown reduction of his E if it could just lower for about 3-4 seconds. I play Graves a lot and that would be the only thing I need Riot to fix. Well actually his passive is kinda stupid, I don't see how 10 armor at level 6 or 20 at level 12 or 30 level 16 would do him any favor.