Nidalee issues, post-rework - no reliability in lane.

Polaritie·7/14/2014, 3:58:10 AM·5 votes·1,523 views

Honestly, I'm not sure the rework addressed much of the bigger issue with Nidalee. It hurt her strongest areas (in the case of javelins, deservedly so) without helping at all the bigger kit issues.

  1. Javelin toss is never, ever going to land consistently on someone who knows where you are. It is among the smallest skillshots in the game and also the absolute slowest. If they can see it, they can dodge it. The only reason she was feared in the past was because when it did hit it obliterated anything not full-tank. Without that... it's just so hard to use in lane. Basically any opponent is 100% safe because of constant vision and creeps. Most mid laners can safely farm without any real risk of javelin hits and one javelin is unlikely to threaten them (while their harass is a constant issue for Nidalee).

  2. Bushwhack remains the most worthless skill in the game. Simply put, it has absolutely zero utility in combat due to an atrocious arming time. The rework even nerfed the thing by gutting its damage and making it single target. Since it has a tiny trip radius (I think only Caitlyn's traps are smaller, and they arm much faster) and takes like 3-4 seconds to become live it cannot be used offensively. A damage skill that can't even be attacked with feels awful. Remove the damage and remake it completely as a utility skill, or make it possible for her to actually aim at an opponent and hit without having already laid a ton of them or them messing up badly.

  3. Hunt, as a mechanic, is nice. The problem is it's dependent on two abilities that are simply an exercise in frustration to use. Considering how easily dodged javelins are and how nigh-impossible to deliberately apply Bushwhack is (frankly, the only times it ever procs in lane are on incoming junglers... who invariably have enough health, CC, and numerical advantage I would never, ever want to go in on it)... it's not particularly useful outside of ambush cases. If you can't set up the combo on the first javelin, it's horribly unreliable. It's not bad for cleaning up a teamfight, because people running away are one of the rare cases Javelins are easy to land, but the gameplan of "chip away at opponent then Hunt in and combo" is not a reality when the only sources of the mark have no reliability.

Ultimately, I feel that her biggest problem is that her only skill in human form that is actually reliable is her heal. At least pre-rework the random spear hit would force a back or something, so the horrific unreliability wasn't as big a factor (and indeed, I think Javelin has been made harder and harder to hit over time to make it less aggravating). Right now, I think that Javelin Toss needs to be made something you can land reliably, and have its damage adjusted to compensate (possibly mana costs as well). Give actual speed, or make minions not 100% perfectly defend against it (penetrate, ignore, SOMETHING) so Nidalee has a half-reliable poke in lane.

Bushwhack... frankly, give it back the AoE so the center of lane isn't 100% safe and it can be placed into minions and have a chance to hit. Reduce the arming time drastically. Give it something besides just damage - either return the shred power or give it a slow (it is the only trap in game with no CC - it cannot assist escapes like every other trap, and won't help engage unless tripped with them already in hunt pounce range). Something. Right now I feel that it offers nothing except minor map control. It's so much worse than any other trap ability...

Ultimately, I feel Nidalee has gone from RNG-hax to subpar melee AP, because her options for range in lane are so limited. Right now she just can't compete with anyone who actually has decent poke ability, since her cat form is balanced around the assumption she can get poke in. It's just not fun to play someone when their abilities are atrociously hard to land, even if landing them has a good reward attached - the endless stream of misses you go through to get there is too frustrating.

Hell, Blitz's grabs are easier to land by far than Nidalee's Hunt debuff, and generally speaking FAR more devastating than either javelin or bushwhack.

I really want to play Nidalee, but right now I feel like it's just rolling dice and hoping things work out. Top is slightly better for her than mid because you don't run into poke as much (since it's heavy on melees), but you still end up with the problem of reliable Hunt procs - the bushes help (people actually go into them)... but... I dunno. Her current state just isn't very satisfying. Bushwhack in particular has never been useful beyond vision. Even when it had a 40% shred to both resists in an AoE, it still had so little reliability nobody cared.

Edit: As a final thought - Nidalee's current state is so messed up that she can have great AP scaling and then nobody wants to touch it and just goes trinity+tanky.

15 Comments

Worgslarg7/14/2014, 12:59:03 PM4 votes

Simple thing to make AP nidalee viable in midlane again.

Traps now only trigger on champions, and trigger instantly.

that way, you can actually trigger the hunt inlane.

I have been having a lot of fun playing her AD in toplane, just go for an early iceborn gauntlet and you're golden.

Angry Monster7/14/2014, 5:50:15 AM1 votes

you got to be kidding. I see Nids constantly 100 to 0 people. She is an utter lane bully that sustains through it all.

Tanryoku7/14/2014, 8:21:07 AM1 votes

I honestly feel like the Javelin is fine. It's a bit easier for me to hit now. I've always been good at skill shots and now that it's thinner, it's easier for me to see where it will hit so I know where to throw it. I agree that the speed is a bit slow and it could use a small kick in that department though. As for the bushwacks. They have always been completely useless for me. I liked that they had the double shred before and they did more damage than they do right now, but it's use was just not really important.

I love the hunt system and how you have to make them hunted in order to get the ranged jump/extra damage, but I agree that the traps are crappy for setting up a hunt. As well as the hunt debuff only lasting 4 seconds which anyone can avoid being jumped for 4 seconds then get back to harassing. I think traps need to be made a bit more useful and make the hunt debuff last for 6 or 7 seconds since it's pretty easy to be out of spear range(behind minions) and out of the completely visible trap's way. I don't like that she isn't good for team fights considering she isn't as tanky as other champions but if I can get people with the hunt debuff a bit more and my traps were actually useful, i wouldn't really need to be.

ILoveTiramisu7/14/2014, 11:02:10 AM1 votes

I think if Nidalee has 6-4 cooldown of Javelin also good like AP mage. I play AD Nidalee because she is very strong.

bzhen09157/14/2014, 11:05:35 AM1 votes

I would personally say that anivia's stun is much slower than the javelin toss i don't think her q is a big problem

MrBuffington7/14/2014, 2:54:37 PM1 votes

They mentioned increasing the projectile speed of Nid spears if she's still too weak. Honestly, I think they should make her spear damage a bit more reliable before they start adjusting missile speed. The fact that she only gains bonus damage after her AA range is bizarre, just seems like an old nerf that doesn't make any sense anymore. Especially now that Nid wants to be in a little closer to follow up in cougar form, I think the nerf really punishes her for playing how she's supposed to.

utDOOM7/14/2014, 4:09:57 PM1 votes

Nid is an amazing top laner. Her traps (which aren't supposed to be your main way of applying hunt) are used to zone enemies away from an area so you can hit them with your spears and apply hunt. If they stand in the minions then you can just poke them with auto-attacks or just all in them with your cat form. If they step in a trap or get hit by a spear your combo will usually force them out of lane.

Khodexus7/14/2014, 5:15:56 AM1 votes

You know, on the subject of bushwhack, what if she tossed out two traps at a time, and instead of placing them ranged, actually 'tossed' them out, and they could trigger on impact in addition to placing a 'trap'?

That could be interesting. And I still think the best fix to javelin toss is to invert the damage scaling with range, so it does it's most damage at point blank range, and then falls off further away. That would make it a moderate ranged harass tool, as well as a deadly 'get close and I'll melt you with javelin > panther form' safety net.

Thoughts?

AK47WOLF7/14/2014, 7:08:04 PM1 votes

I'll just assume you're kidding.